Formula one is so much more impressive than nascar, atleast in my opinion.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y270/hauvis/Formula1facts.jpg

I think a Nextel Cup car costs significantly more than $150K...Think of all the wind tunnel time, engine programs, etc that go NASCAR...a TON..since they are limited to crude and strict rules they spend gobs of money to eke out whatever performance advantage they can

$150K will get you an OK World Challenge Touring Car...

f1 cars are extremely expensive especially the aero pieces like the front nose cone. I was watching a race and someone said how much one would cost when someone stopped in pit row to get a new front end. I can't remember exactly but it was more than 150k. Oh yeah and f1>nascar by leagues and f1 drivers>nascar drivers

I never really thought of comparing the two. Price is certainly a factor. I think the reason so many people enjoy Nascar is because any number of drivers has a chance at winning. F1, lets see...if Schumacher doesn't win, one or two other guys stand a chance.

PS: the crashes in a Nascar race are WAY better than the ones in F1.

F1 cars can make right turns. ;) ( I know nascar has 2 road courses, because 1 is in my back yard). How do they not get bored doing 500 mile races in a circle?

olsalty- have you watched F1 this year? Schumacher hasn't won a race yet. It's been a good season so far.

The only similarities between a NASCAR stock car and an F1 car is that they can both be called a car. It's like comparing an Olympic bobsled to a Flexible Flyer. :lol:

F1 cars can make right turns. ;) ( I know nascar has 2 road courses, because 1 is in my back yard). How do they not get bored doing 500 mile races in a circle?


and coming up we have










another left turn

Formula One is the pinnacle of motorsports. There is no comparison. They are jets that have very tiny wings with a 1.5:1 weight to power ratio, laden with technology that NASA takes cues from.

the real worlds best drivers are in the WRC! i work for a cup team i like both nascar and f1. the tech part of f1 is great. while most f1 racing is a little boring because of lack of passing from poor track design for current state of the cars. atleast in cup one can win a race without starting for poll.

Salty, we've had three different winners this year, and none of them were in red cars.

And frankly I think a lot of NASCAR guys would have an edge over the F1 guys in the right kind of racing, as has been proven again and again at the Race of Champions every year.

I saw that and thought the prices were way off for Cup. The $150k is a bit high for just the chassis, is fairly accurate for the engine, but not for a complete car. For an aero sensitive car, it's about $275-$300k before it sees the track.

And I have to go with the cars that take the most talent to drive really well are... World of Outlaws Sprint cars. Let's take an open wheeled 850 HP, 1200lb car with a high center of gravity and put 25 of them on a 1/2 mile dirt oval.

So what's up with the wings they have on those sprint cars? Why do they look so weird?

So what's up with the wings they have on those sprint cars? Why do they look so weird?

They are there for function. The top wing is actually adjustable (angle and front to back position) on the fly and on certain tracks will pop down for more straughtline speed.

The large sideplates are to give some help when the car is sideways, errmm most of the time.

WoO cars are scary, scary fast. :eek:

I believe WoO cars have changed the rules in the last couple of years so that the wing can only be moved forwards or backwards from the cockpit, and wing angle is no longer driver adjustable.

Function of the goofy looking side plates on the wing as Bonzo describes is correct.

They are there for function. The top wing is actually adjustable (angle and front to back position) on the fly and on certain tracks will pop down for more straughtline speed.

The large sideplates are to give some help when the car is sideways, errmm most of the time.

WoO cars are scary, scary fast. :eek:

Those wings are driven off of the power steering pump. There's a little lever to the driver's right that will adjust the angle of attack. Those cars need power steering because there's only about 3/4 of a turn from lock to lock and they full full lock quite a bit.

I used to pit for a 360ci Winged sprint car in my area. One year we had that car so hooked up and the track was the perfect wetness (With clay you want it wet, but not dripping) that our driver could pull the front tires up the entire length of the straight. (1/4 Mile oval)

-Peter

thanks for cleaning up my somewhat dated info/memory :)

WoO boys were racing 30 minutes form me last w/e. Had previous plans, I missed it:(

I never really thought of comparing the two. Price is certainly a factor. I think the reason so many people enjoy Nascar is because any number of drivers has a chance at winning. F1, lets see...if Schumacher doesn't win, one or two other guys stand a chance.

PS: the crashes in a Nascar race are WAY better than the ones in F1.

if you are into car racing crashes you should watch Demolition Derby, and certainly you havent been watching F1 this season to know that MS havent win a race yet (i'm still waiting tho). The reason North American people (note only North American people) are into NASCAR it because the huge advertisement they put out. Look at jeff gordan, you can see him everywhere and people praise him like a national hero, He is more famous than the 7 times F1 "WORLD" champion. Is all about marketing and advertisement. If you have a chance to go to other counties, go ask a foreigner about how to they feel about NASCAR. I would aasure you will receive rather negative replies from them. I dont mean NASCAR is any easier than other type of racing and I respect them having so much sucess in N.A.. It just when comparing NASCAR with F1 is almost out of the league.

p.s. I believe NASCAR drivers can also do very good in any other car race, it just they choose and enjoy racing in NASCAR.

There was a clip on one of the shows on speed showing Jeff Gordan doing testing for Williams BMW. he couldn't beat the lap times of their regular test driver. Gordan has said a couple of times that if h could get a F1 ride he would do it and he would like to do it before his career is over. With the state of F1 (not just Ferrari) now he may try to make the jump in the next couple of years.

I also saw a show about Gordon and I think it was Helio Castroneves switching cars at Indy and Helio drove circles around Gordon in the open wheel and was just a tad off hhis pace in the stock car.

Gordon had what... 15 laps maybe in an F1 car? In that time he was running laps fast enough to not qualify last on the grid. Admittedly he was in superior hardware than those at the back of the grid, but I don't think many folks could come up to speed that quickly in a car with extreme performance like that. FWIW his lap times were 1 sec off of Montoya's.

Unfortunately, the NASCAR boys don't run the road course, so we can't compare Montoya's times to theirs.

I have seen a NASCAR car like in road course on speed channel. The race is so boring i agree they should stay oval circuit.

Gordon had what... 15 laps maybe in an F1 car? In that time he was running laps fast enough to not qualify last on the grid. Admittedly he was in superior hardware than those at the back of the grid, but I don't think many folks could come up to speed that quickly in a car with extreme performance like that. FWIW his lap times were 1 sec off of Montoya's.

Unfortunately, the NASCAR boys don't run the road course, so we can't compare Montoya's times to theirs.


I would like to see Gordan step into the Red Bull car and see what he could do.

I'd say he'd give Klein or Speed a run for their money.

And frankly I think a lot of NASCAR guys would have an edge over the F1 guys in the right kind of racing, as has been proven again and again at the Race of Champions every year.

I don't think the drivers are in question. To get a seat in NASCAR one has to obviously learn much through other racing venues. I believe most of the people here are bashing NASCAR as a racing championship itself.

I'd say he'd give Klein or Speed a run for their money.


I think so too, after a good amount of seat time. That said I hope that Red Bull can get a car to compete so Speed has a chance to be a force in the future.

F1 needs a American driver in order to grow in the US market.

I don't think the drivers are in question.

I was responding to elirentz' "f1>nascar by leagues and f1 drivers>nascar drivers"

I was responding to elirentz' "f1>nascar by leagues and f1 drivers>nascar drivers"

Didn't see that...

I was responding to elirentz' "f1>nascar by leagues and f1 drivers>nascar drivers"
Not to bash Nascar drivers...but why are all the up-and-coming Nascar drivers either legacy or pretty-boys?

Getting a ride in Nextel cup is less about driving ability than it is about a sponser being able to market you.

Not to bash Nascar drivers...but why are all the up-and-coming Nascar drivers either legacy or pretty-boys?

Getting a ride in Nextel cup is less about driving ability than it is about a sponser being able to market you.


I never thought about that but it does seem that way.

Not to bash Nascar drivers...but why are all the up-and-coming Nascar drivers either legacy or pretty-boys?

Getting a ride in Nextel cup is less about driving ability than it is about a sponser being able to market you.

It's the same as it is in F1... to get a ride in a Minardi or a Jordan or other low team it seems you need to have big $$$ backing. Only Red Bull seems interested in talented new drivers without massive financial backing.

Only Red Bull seems interested in talented new drivers without massive financial backing.

Even with them I'm pretty sure that marketability was a large part of their driver search. At least when looking for a US driver.

Even at lower levels of competition the ability to get sponsorship is going to be important to your success. And you need to have some success at these lower levels in order to make it to the big leagues of auto racing.

I have seen a NASCAR car like in road course on speed channel. The race is so boring i agree they should stay oval circuit.
Who exactly are you agreeing with:confused:

F1 needs a American driver in order to grow in the US market.[/QUOTE]

I agree.

Not to bash Nascar drivers...but why are all the up-and-coming Nascar drivers either legacy or pretty-boys?
The same reason that everyone in F1 is young...They start young, usually in carts or midgets when they are 5 years old. Some of the new guys in Cup may only be 20, but they're 20 with 15 years of racing experience.

Just another thread whining about nascar and comparing apples to oranges.

Even with them I'm pretty sure that marketability was a large part of their driver search. At least when looking for a US driver.

Yeah, I agree. Not to knock Scott Speed, but I think his nationality has played a large part in his ability to get this far, with everyone in F1 trying to capitalize on the US market. Same goes for Danika, who I heard will be doing exhibition laps in a BAR at the USGP.

S. Speed's resume:
Racing History
1993 – First karting race
1995 – First karting national title
1996 - 2001 – Multiple karting national titles and championships
2001 – Russell Racing Champion, Sonoma Ca.
(first car racing championship)
2002 – Barber Dodge National Championship
2002 – Formula Mazda Championship
2002 – Selected, and won, Red Bull American Driver Search
2003 – British F3 (partial season due to illness)
2004 – Formula Renault German and Eurocup Champion
2004 – Testing with Red Bull Cheever Racing IRL team
2005 – GP2...currently in second place

So...he's marketable sure...but also fast. You won't see B. Pitt in an F1 car anytime soon.

Danika...well...she's definitely attractive...and a female...and I dare say has had many less obstacles to overcome...but hardly any "real" blow me away results on her resume.

F1 is about $$$ AND Speed. If you can't drive...I mean really really fast..the F1 monster won't even let you get in the car. (For the purpose of racing of course)

RedBull (Inc.) is ALL about marketing. That's they're game. They are of course running Jr RedBull drivers from all over the globe...Speed and a couple of others in the US subsidiary are there, but they still get to fight it out with a total of 16 drivers from 12 different nations.

Renault, Ferrari, McLaren, Williams, BAR....they "driver search" as well, just much differently. They identify talent and then, (if the talent has or can find their own sponsorship) gets a chance to be groomed in the various feeder formulas in Europe, driving top notch equipment which are subsidized in part by the f1 teams and their infrastructure. Then a couple of contract years with said team and then they're on their own.

I don't "like" or personally know S Speed, but I give him alot of credit...not for being American, but for being smart enough and fast enough to play for a shot at F1.

BriDrive

Don't get me wrong, Scott's definitely talented, as he's shown. I just think that being an American with skills has definitely helped him quite a bit.

S. Speed's resume:
Racing History
1993 – First karting race
1995 – First karting national title
1996 - 2001 – Multiple karting national titles and championships
2001 – Russell Racing Champion, Sonoma Ca.
(first car racing championship)
2002 – Barber Dodge National Championship
2002 – Formula Mazda Championship
2002 – Selected, and won, Red Bull American Driver Search
2003 – British F3 (partial season due to illness)
2004 – Formula Renault German and Eurocup Champion
2004 – Testing with Red Bull Cheever Racing IRL team
2005 – GP2...currently in second place

So...he's marketable sure...but also fast. You won't see B. Pitt in an F1 car anytime soon.

Danika...well...she's definitely attractive...and a female...and I dare say has had many less obstacles to overcome...but hardly any "real" blow me away results on her resume.

F1 is about $$$ AND Speed. If you can't drive...I mean really really fast..the F1 monster won't even let you get in the car. (For the purpose of racing of course)

RedBull (Inc.) is ALL about marketing. That's they're game. They are of course running Jr RedBull drivers from all over the globe...Speed and a couple of others in the US subsidiary are there, but they still get to fight it out with a total of 16 drivers from 12 different nations.

Renault, Ferrari, McLaren, Williams, BAR....they "driver search" as well, just much differently. They identify talent and then, (if the talent has or can find their own sponsorship) gets a chance to be groomed in the various feeder formulas in Europe, driving top notch equipment which are subsidized in part by the f1 teams and their infrastructure. Then a couple of contract years with said team and then they're on their own.

I don't "like" or personally know S Speed, but I give him alot of credit...not for being American, but for being smart enough and fast enough to play for a shot at F1.

BriDrive

When we were at the USGP last year we wee at a reception held be some of my clients. He owns a large plastics company and is also involved with vintage F1 racing. There were some F1 people there swooning over his kid who is 5 and is racing 80cc shifters. The F1 guys arrainged a meet and greet for the kid on Sunday morning with his favorite drivers. He said they do this for several young kids as an early bid to keep the kids away from NASCAR.

The same reason that everyone in F1 is young...They start young, usually in carts or midgets when they are 5 years old. Some of the new guys in Cup may only be 20, but they're 20 with 15 years of racing experience.
Yeah...I don't really follow F1, not much network coverage.

I just had the thought while watching an ALMS race on CBS earlier this year. They were interviewing some of the drivers and I thought "There's a mug you won't ever see in a Gillette ad."

I think so too, after a good amount of seat time. That said I hope that Red Bull can get a car to compete so Speed has a chance to be a force in the future.

F1 needs a American driver in order to grow in the US market.I doubt Gordon will ever switch. He'd always get paid more to be in NASCAR. Simple as that.

Both racing series are all about the money. NASCAR and F1 are almost indistinguishable when you talk sponsorships, how hard it is to get into the game, etc. NASCAR is monopolized by the France family and ISC, F1 is monopolized by Bernie Ecclestone and FOM. Both racing series are dripping with money. I have a Discovery Channel documentary where they followed WilliamsF1. Sir Frank Williams said having the business sense to gain sponsors is just as if not more important than having a competitive car. It can't be said better.

Technologically, yes F1 is far more advanced.

As for Scott Speed - he is almost definitely in for next year it seems. I think everyone on both sides of the pond wants to see popularity grow for F1 in North America.

It really seemed like CBS was part of the plan to bring F1 here on Sunday... with their NASCAR comparison and little blurb about Scott Speed. They kept mentioning "Formula 1 is the cutting edge of motorsport anywhere in the world," etc. I'm all for it - I would love the day I can go to a sports bar and watch F1.

As far as Speed's nationality playing into his pick - sure it has. But I don't think anything is wrong with that. The Red Bull Driver Search was created to find the best American driver. And he won. So I don't think he's been given a handout, I just think he's the American driver that won the contest. Next year I plan to cheer for him unless he turns out to be irresponsible, a sellout, or otherwise annoying (<cough> R. Schumacher <cough>). As of now I've heard nothing but good things; he's smart, talented, business savvy (verrrrrry important in F1)... hell, I wish I could be him :p

...
The Red Bull Driver Search was created to find the best American driver. And he won.


Well...not exactly. That's all we generally get to see/hear about over here.
The search you refer to is a "sub search" branch put on by RedBull USA.

The actual drivers S Speed is competing against for a seat are these guys:
http://www.redbull-juniorteam.com/drivers.php4

The international RedBull junior team.

This is what's most impressive to me.

I still find it hard that a NASCAR car weighs more than my WRX.

Well...not exactly. That's all we generally get to see/hear about over here.
The search you refer to is a "sub search" branch put on by RedBull USA.

The actual drivers S Speed is competing against for a seat are these guys:
http://www.redbull-juniorteam.com/drivers.php4

The international RedBull junior team.

This is what's most impressive to me.Well then he's even more impressive than I originally thought; even better! :disco:

the real worlds best drivers are in the WRC!

oh ya for sure... F1 > CRAPCAR... i just wish they'd make F1 with manual shifting and all the traction stuff, and put make it more about the driver, and not the car doing everything.

oh ya for sure... F1 > CRAPCAR... i just wish they'd make F1 with manual shifting and all the traction stuff, and put make it more about the driver, and not the car doing everything.

They tried. Unless you force them to run a spec gearbox and a spec ECU, there is just no way to police it.

I don't know how they could ever go back to a manual gearbox. Listen closely to a qualifying run-- How long does each gear last? - probably almost as long as it would take to manually shift between them.

On a related note - does anyone remembera few years back when Ferrari was grenading transmissions left & right? We've come pretty far...

On a related note - does anyone remembera few years back when Ferrari was grenading transmissions left & right? We've come pretty far...

You mean kinda like every race since their new car started turning laps? At least for Rubino...

F1 needs a American driver in order to grow in the US market.



I don't think an American driver will create more than a ripple in the popularity of F1 in the U.S. (maybe if lil' E drove it'd be different, "he's so cute" :lol: ) Read: Puking violently now!! :D

Just look at IRL or Kart as perfect examples of this. Both series have a ton of great American drivers (Sam Hornish Jr., Eddie Cheever, etc) and their popularity has not increased over the years. In fact it has diminished, probably also for reasons other than driver nationality alone. :lol:

Another perfect example is Trans Am. I've been to dozens of Trans-Am races and the racing is some of the best i've seen. Drivers like Boris Said are amazing to watch. Yet Trans-Am is not popular amongst regular folk.

And herein lies the problem, most die hard NASCAR fans are actually not motorsports enthusiasts at all. 50% of the fans are women (no offense ladies) who like the image of the modern day gladiator wheeling his chariot around the track. Why is "lil E" :lol: so popular? Chicks think he's hot, including my old lady :furious: whose scared to death of SCCA club racing in my STi.

The advertisement is also aimed at either overweight slobs or women. What man really gives two sheets about Tide?

That doesn't detract from the fact that the drivers are actually very good. I have seen Tony, Dale, Robby Gordon and even old man Earnhardt battle it out in Grand Am road course racing at the Rolex 24 and yes they were impressive.

The teams and technology are interesting too, but the whole thing is like one big reality TV show, or Pro-wrestling. It's so dumbed down and that's exactly why the average American eats it up. It simple and to the point, with crashes, drama and action.

BTW Ex-Cup cars running in SCCA GT-1 are simply sick too watch on a road course, like VIR, so don't think I'm dissing the cars or drivers. :devil:

I don't know how they could ever go back to a manual gearbox. Listen closely to a qualifying run-- How long does each gear last? - probably almost as long as it would take to manually shift between them.

On a related note - does anyone remembera few years back when Ferrari was grenading transmissions left & right? We've come pretty far...

FIA 2008 sugested rule changes will force teams to use manual clutch and gear selectors provided by an FIA selected source. I did a cut and paste of few of the rule changes proposed:

Summary of the main changes proposed for 2008

ENGINES

All components of the engine will be controlled by an Electronic Control Unit (ECU) which has been manufactured by an FIA designated supplier to an agreed specification
The ECU may only be used with FIA approved software and may only be connected to the control system wiring loom, sensors and actuators as specified by the FIA
All control sensors, actuators and FIA monitoring sensors will be specified and homologated by the FIA
The control system wiring loom connectivity will be specified by the FIA
A 3 litre V10 engine will remain an option for teams unable to obtain a 2.4 litre V8, but subject to similar strict performance limitations as in 2006 and 2007

Reasons

to eliminate the use of driver aids such as traction control
as teams will not be able to develop their own ECUs, expenditure on electronics will be considerably reduced
to allow the FIA to check testing mileage and other elements
to keep engine costs low for the smaller independent teams

GEARBOXES

All cars will be fitted with gear ratios, final drive ratios and differentials which have been manufactured by an FIA designated supplier to an agreed specification
Gear changing will only be permitted by the use of a manually operated mechanical linkage to the gearbox
Clutches will only be operated via a foot pedal connected mechanically to a release mechanism

Reasons

to restore control over the clutch and gear changing to the driver
the use of standard gearbox internals will result in a very significant reduction in expenditure

WHEELS AND TYRES

Tyres will be supplied by one manufacturer appointed by the FIA after an invitation to tender. Such an appointment will be conditional upon :
a suitable supplier being available ;
a suitable system to ensure tyre testing is carried out in an equitable manner ;
no team being disadvantaged by the appointment of a single supplier (detailed regulations will be written to ensure this would not be the case) ;
there being no legal impediments during the process of appointing a supplier
Slick tyres will be introduced for use in dry weather
Lower profile tyres will be introduced
Significantly larger wheels with minimum and maximum sizes stipulated for front and rear will be permitted
Tyre blankets and other heating devices will be prohibited
All tyre regulations will reside in the Technical Regulations

Reasons

a single supplier would allow a bigger safety margin
the absence of competitive tyre testing would reduce costs
as relatively small differences in tyre compound and construction can have a significant effect on lap times, a single tyre supplier would simply ensure that no team would be adversely affected by being contracted to the “wrong” supplier
slick tyres would be re-introduced as a part of the low- downforce and high-mechanical-grip package
lower profile tyres would be introduced in order to give the wheels and tyres a more modern look and also permit more freedom on brakes and suspension
a ban on tyre heating

I really hope they don't go with the above changes.

The only one I like is low profile tires. And that's simply so more people will go "ooooh" and think it looks better. That would have all sorts of suspension design ramifications, though, so maybe is not feasible.

ECU - not so bad, it will serve the purpose they say.

Mech shifting - well there goes F1's claim to be the most technologically advanced racing series, I really hope that doesn't fly :(

It's the same as it is in F1... to get a ride in a Minardi or a Jordan or other low team it seems you need to have big $$$ backing. Only Red Bull seems interested in talented new drivers without massive financial backing.

You need the big money backing because both of those teams have always been "buy a ride" because they can't afford to pay for big name drivers. Even Michael drove his first race with Eddie Jordan before he got a full time drive with the Renault Team. Red Bull is the only real option for any up and coming star to get a ride with a competitive team.

FIA 2008 sugested rule changes will force teams to use manual clutch and gear selectors provided by an FIA selected source. I did a cut and paste of few of the rule changes proposed:

Summary of the main changes proposed for 2008

ENGINES

All components of the engine will be controlled by an Electronic Control Unit (ECU) which has been manufactured by an FIA designated supplier to an agreed specification
The ECU may only be used with FIA approved software and may only be connected to the control system wiring loom, sensors and actuators as specified by the FIA
All control sensors, actuators and FIA monitoring sensors will be specified and homologated by the FIA
The control system wiring loom connectivity will be specified by the FIA
A 3 litre V10 engine will remain an option for teams unable to obtain a 2.4 litre V8, but subject to similar strict performance limitations as in 2006 and 2007

Reasons

to eliminate the use of driver aids such as traction control
as teams will not be able to develop their own ECUs, expenditure on electronics will be considerably reduced
to allow the FIA to check testing mileage and other elements
to keep engine costs low for the smaller independent teams

GEARBOXES

All cars will be fitted with gear ratios, final drive ratios and differentials which have been manufactured by an FIA designated supplier to an agreed specification
Gear changing will only be permitted by the use of a manually operated mechanical linkage to the gearbox
Clutches will only be operated via a foot pedal connected mechanically to a release mechanism

Reasons

to restore control over the clutch and gear changing to the driver
the use of standard gearbox internals will result in a very significant reduction in expenditure

WHEELS AND TYRES

Tyres will be supplied by one manufacturer appointed by the FIA after an invitation to tender. Such an appointment will be conditional upon :
a suitable supplier being available ;
a suitable system to ensure tyre testing is carried out in an equitable manner ;
no team being disadvantaged by the appointment of a single supplier (detailed regulations will be written to ensure this would not be the case) ;
there being no legal impediments during the process of appointing a supplier
Slick tyres will be introduced for use in dry weather
Lower profile tyres will be introduced
Significantly larger wheels with minimum and maximum sizes stipulated for front and rear will be permitted
Tyre blankets and other heating devices will be prohibited
All tyre regulations will reside in the Technical Regulations

Reasons

a single supplier would allow a bigger safety margin
the absence of competitive tyre testing would reduce costs
as relatively small differences in tyre compound and construction can have a significant effect on lap times, a single tyre supplier would simply ensure that no team would be adversely affected by being contracted to the “wrong” supplier
slick tyres would be re-introduced as a part of the low- downforce and high-mechanical-grip package
lower profile tyres would be introduced in order to give the wheels and tyres a more modern look and also permit more freedom on brakes and suspension
a ban on tyre heating

I really hope they don't go with the above changes.

Why Bernie IRL-ify F1?!?

I like the tire/wheel changes (except for the one tire supplier part) as it should help the brakes be a lot bigger and safer (more pad area = more pad life/mm of thickness, yeah?). Ditto increasing mechanical grip and further limiting aero grip. Everything else smacks of spec racing, which you would think F1 would want to stay far, far away from.

Is this the FIA propsal for the next concorde agreement?