I have a question for you more experianced modders.

For instance, I was looking at

http://www.ktrperformance.com

Under there dyno section and noticed alot of the dynos ran on WRX's and STI's are much lower then what Ive read / seen on this board. Is it true that a stage 2 COBB flash with TBE and up-pipe only puts down 200 whp? and that Stage 1's only put down 170's?

I thought this was a bit strange. Im looking for a place in the area to get some work done / tuned / dyno'ed but dont want to get a dyno sheet that shows incorrect " or lower then normal " runs.

So please... if you would like to enlighten me on what to expect " true numbers " not the candy coated ones that Cobb and other EM's are feeding us.

Thanks

http://www.ktrperformance.com/gallery/Events/Subaru03/eric_w.htm

Stage 1

http://www.ktrperformance.com/gallery/Events/Subaru_10_02_04/aran_p_wrx.htm

Stage 2

Also ... out of curiousity.. what the drivetrain loss for an Auto tranny wrx. Cause I noticed one putting down 140 whp ... is that normal ???!?

http://www.ktrperformance.com/gallery/Events/Subaru_10_02_04/ben_b_wrx.htm

Auto Dyno STOCK

Don't get hung up on dyno #'s. A dyno is just a tool to show relitive gain or loss. The only #'s I trust are MPH at the dragway to show how powerful a car is.

TMS

Don't get hung up on dyno #'s. A dyno is just a tool to show relitive gain or loss. The only #'s I trust are MPH at the dragway to show how powerful a car is.

TMS

What about those of us who drive our cars the way they were designed instead of thinking they are something they are not?

If I wanted a drag strip car, it'd be American Muscle. No doubt. If I wanted "import" style drag I would have gotten an SRT-4.

:disco:

Exactly what TMS said. More power is more power, and the important thing is that you make more when you leave than when you arrive.

Yeah but I dont want to go and dump my clutch to see if I made an improvment while modding my car. Also there are too many factor's in a " drag run " then a more controlled envirorment like on a dyno.

Its garbage to hear someone post up a dyno and then justify there run by saying .. " well today they said the dyno is running about 25whp lower then normal.. so just add that on and thats what I ran "

Where the hell are the REAL acurate dynos .. and what are the REAL numbers that we should be pulling.

Is there REALLY a way to get honest to god numbers?

I mean....car manufacturers do it...right? Or are they blowing smoke up the collective consumers arses when they say X car puts out Y amount of power in their adverts?

What about those of us who drive our cars the way they were designed instead of thinking they are something they are not?

If I wanted a drag strip car, it'd be American Muscle. No doubt. If I wanted "import" style drag I would have gotten an SRT-4.

:disco:

I did not say that the WRX was a drag monster I said that on a dragway the MPH and the weight of the car are IMO the best way to judge the real power of a car.

Yeah but I dont want to go and dump my clutch to see if I made an improvment while modding my car. Also there are too many factor's in a " drag run " then a more controlled envirorment like on a dyno.

Its garbage to hear someone post up a dyno and then justify there run by saying .. " well today they said the dyno is running about 25whp lower then normal.. so just add that on and thats what I ran "

Where the hell are the REAL acurate dynos .. and what are the REAL numbers that we should be pulling.

You don't have to "dump the clutch" to get good MPH #'s. I cut a 1.8 60ft ran 13.08@103 and then I did a 2.5 60ft and ran a 14.7@102 missing 3 shifts down the track. See how little the MPH changed. ;)
What factors are you talking about? Temp? Humidity? Barometric pressure? They all are factors on a dyno too.

TMS

They are , but I was talking about missing shifts.. and pulling a good 60ft. How big your ballz are off the bat whether you drop at 3k or 5k ... those will give you a higher top end speed.

*shrug *

Is there REALLY a way to get honest to god numbers?

I mean....car manufacturers do it...right? Or are they blowing smoke up the collective consumers arses when they say X car puts out Y amount of power in their adverts?

I bet auto manufacturers use engine dynos (not to be confused with chassis dynos) to come up with the numbers they advertise.

Why do you care what HP/TQ you're making? That's the question to answer first.

If you want a rough number to throw at people, then you should be perfectly content to take the car through 1/4 mile and quote trap speed or make a calculation based off of that and quote it as a rough idea.

If you want to brag, just make up a number and save yourself time.

There is zero need to launch the car to get a pretty accurate trap speed.

How big your ballz are off the bat whether you drop at 3k or 5k ... those will give you a higher top end speed.

a common enough thought, but nonetheless completely wrong.

If you want to brag, just make up a number and save yourself time.

:lol:

eleventy billion.

with 89 octane.

They are , but I was talking about missing shifts.. and pulling a good 60ft. How big your ballz are off the bat whether you drop at 3k or 5k ... those will give you a higher top end speed.

*shrug *

No not really maybe 1mph maybe 2mph if you are real lucky. Driving like you describe might get you beter TIMES but the MPH won't change much. Driving like you are doing a highway on ramp agressively will get you close to the same MPH.

Rule 1 when reading a slip
Time = driver
MPH = power of the car

TMS

LOL I love dyno morons.

NEWSFLASH< DYNO NUMBERS MEAN NOTHING.


We just recently has a "490whp 500+ftlb" Dyno queer err I mean queen come out to a local drag day.
It ran 13's CONSISTANTLY. I think it ran 1 upper 12 sec run.
I have seen a LOT of "OOH MY CAR MAKES 350WHP!!!" guys running mid 13's consistantly, with slips showing that the driver wasnt the problem.


A dyno is HARDLY a controlled environment. There are SO many factors that will wildly change what a dyno says you make. The number 1 thing being the operator. And The correction factor isnt the only thing, so before anyone posts their slip showing a good correction number, I DONT CARE. There are a ton of things a shady shop can do to artificially inflate dyno numbers to make their own work look good.
Not to mention the same car, on the same tank of gas, with the same tune, can make a 20whp different number THE VERY NEXT DAY.

The ONLY thing a dyno is TRUELY good for is getting a baseline number of what THAT DYNO says you make, make your changes in parts/tune THAT DAY, and take another reading, THAT SAME DAY, and if the temp in the shop changes dramatically, or the barometric pressure changes dramatically, or the humidity... Well, that basically makes your comparison worthless.

I laugh at guys jerking off over dyno sheets now. I have yet to see 9 out of 10 of them do anything but make excuses as to why their car runs slower than cars dynoing WAY lower.


Before anyone dismisses me as a guy who is just mad because he doesnt have a good dyno chart, I have one. 309whp from back when 300whp was the holy grail.
I also have 3-5 dynos within a 75 mile radius of me, and I have run a better time than probably 75% of the cars making higher dyno numbers than me at these shops. And its not all driver, as I pretty much suck.

You guys dont need to be ****ing ass hats to answer a question that I proposed in context " explaining that I wasnt an experianced tuner "

I come here for assistance... to ask of you " more experianced members for help " and I get ragged on and be little ..

Well f**k you ... Im saying I dont want to romp on my car down a 1/4 mile strech to get a slip that explains whether my car is putting out good power or not.

Do I race at drag strips ?? No I dont. You can explain yourself and advise others without being egotistic c*ck sleeves.

So make your FONT as big as you like .. if thats what it takes to get more chuckles out of your internet buddys

but I guess Ill second think posting anything on this board in regards to something Im not familar with .

Thanks for the info and the answers to some of my questions and misconceptions.. But for the next guy who may post up some questions. Try not to be suck jerks about it.

You guys dont need to be ****ing ass hats to answer a question that I proposed in context " explaining that I wasnt an experianced tuner "

I come here for assistance... to ask of you " more experianced members for help " and I get ragged on and be little ..

Well f**k you ... Im saying I dont want to romp on my car down a 1/4 mile strech to get a slip that explains whether my car is putting out good power or not.

Do I race at drag strips ?? No I dont. You can explain yourself and advise others without being egotistic c*ck sleeves.

So make your FONT as big as you like .. if thats what it takes to get more chuckles out of your internet buddys

but I guess Ill second think posting anything on this board in regards to something Im not familar with .

Thanks for the info and the answers to some of my questions and misconceptions.. But for the next guy who may post up some questions. Try not to be suck jerks about it.


^^^^^

What he said

And it's all true.

If your not in "the click" your a n00b....even though I've been here longer, and been in the subie community longer then most you c0ck pops.

Thanks you've been served.

I like chicken.

Oh! and Cinnamon Toast Crunch.

Mmmmmm. Tasty

If you want to brag, just make up a number and save yourself time.

Then there you go there is your answer.

You guys dont need to be ****ing ass hats to answer a question that I proposed in context " explaining that I wasnt an experianced tuner "

I come here for assistance... to ask of you " more experianced members for help " and I get ragged on and be little ..

Well f**k you ... Im saying I dont want to romp on my car down a 1/4 mile strech to get a slip that explains whether my car is putting out good power or not.

Do I race at drag strips ?? No I dont. You can explain yourself and advise others without being egotistic c*ck sleeves.

So make your FONT as big as you like .. if thats what it takes to get more chuckles out of your internet buddys

but I guess Ill second think posting anything on this board in regards to something Im not familar with .

Thanks for the info and the answers to some of my questions and misconceptions.. But for the next guy who may post up some questions. Try not to be suck jerks about it.

Take the sand out of your vag. You asked and we answerd corectly. You didn't like the answer so you resort to name calling. Nice go back to your sand box. Just because you don't like the answer dose not mean it ain't true.

^^^^^

What he said

And it's all true.

If your not in "the click" your a n00b....even though I've been here longer, and been in the subie community longer then most you c0ck pops.

Thanks you've been served.

You must live in a dream world to think dyno #'s mean anything. Again if name calling is all you have then you should go back to your swing set.

TMS

LOL I love dyno morons.

NEWSFLASH< DYNO NUMBERS MEAN NOTHING.

I laugh at guys jerking off over dyno sheets now. I have yet to see 9 out of 10 of them do anything but make excuses as to why their car runs slower than cars dynoing WAY lower.

"Below this you can acutally see him pumping hot air into his head .."

Before anyone dismisses me as a guy who is just mad because he doesnt have a good dyno chart, I have one. 309whp from back when 300whp was the holy grail.

I also have 3-5 dynos within a 75 mile radius of me, and I have run a better time than probably 75% of the cars making higher dyno numbers than me at these shops. And its not all driver, as I pretty much suck.


My point being.. is you can answer peoples questions without being a prick. You can also stop ganging up with your buddys and attempt to gangbang someone who may not be as keen with tuneing methods.

The approach in which some of you reply to ALOT of peoples posts .. not just mine is insulting and be-littling.

( how about saying , dyno to dyno numbers can differ due to these reason ... ect.. ect ... )

Not " you dumb ass wipe ... I love people you are all about numbers.

( Who the hell said I was, Im here asking you guys for assistance with my questions and concerns. )

Isnt that what the board is for.

Instead you act like 18 year olds that are teh faster.. At one time I thought Subaru owners were at a different level of respect with each other. I enjoy getting waves from people I dont know on the road. Makes me feel like Im part of a collective of friends.

But when it comes down to it ... behind the scenes and when you have a shot to make your self +1 on a noob. Most of you will take it.. and for what.

triton, don't get upset. that's just dave. ;)

the fact of the matter is willguidry's initial response in this thread is the one you should be critical of, since he completely missed the point themadscientist was making (WRT trap speed, car mass, and torque at the wheels) and somehow turned it into an import vs. domestic thing.

then the monkeys on this side of the cage started throwing poo at the monkeys on that side, and it was downhill from there. :lol:

Why do you care what HP/TQ you're making? That's the question to answer first.

If you want a rough number to throw at people, then you should be perfectly content to take the car through 1/4 mile and quote trap speed or make a calculation based off of that and quote it as a rough idea.

If you want to brag, just make up a number and save yourself time.
FWIW, I was being sincere and not sarcastic at all when I said all of the above.

I'm sorry you had to experience Davenow in a fine moment, of which there have been many.

Your gripe makes sense. It would be nice if there was the end-all-be-all way for everyone, in any location, to get dead accurate power ratings. There's not, however. Your best gauge of your car's power is 1/4 mile trap speed today. If rolling on the throttle from a stop and running down a dragstrip for $10-$20 is not acceptable to you, that's your choice.

Take care.

But uhhh... aside from Davenow calling you a moron and being agressive (I like to describe him as Passionately Tolerance Challenged) ... he is accurate above.

I was offended at Dave's reply more so then anyone else's. But Im over it. I got good advice from the majority of you.. and I know that Dave's post was accurate with what he was trying to get across. Just not as " soft spoken " as it could of been.

I just have to be a more little more thick skinned and not take replys so personally. *shrug*

But 10 - 20 bucks for a run is alot cheaper then the 80 Id spend on a dyno.

Ill see what I can find in the area and where I stand.

Thanks again for clarifing my concerns :)

TMS....

For the record....I never quoted you. I don't think your response was dick-like.

I was simply reiterating a valid point my good friend made. And venting.....I can understand "razzing" a n00b for something that's been covered a MILLION times....but there is no need for someone to be a douche about it. (not saying you were).

I'll be the first to admit when it comes to cars.....Davenow is LIGHT years ahead of my knowledge.....I just don't like people who know they know, and know that you know they know, and use it like a tool to measure their manhood on an anonymous public forum to degrade you. You know?

It just seems those kinds of attitudes are floating around this board now...alot more than the old school days.

That's all.

I'm Ryan Seacrest and I'm O U T!

P E A C E !

It just seems those kinds of attitudes are floating around this board now...alot more than the old school days.
And it's about 5 people which seem like 50.

And it's about 5 people which seem like 50.

Or more :(

TMS....

For the record....I never quoted you. I don't think your response was dick-like.

I was simply reiterating a valid point my good friend made. And venting.....I can understand "razzing" a n00b for something that's been covered a MILLION times....but there is no need for someone to be a douche about it. (not saying you were).

I'll be the first to admit when it comes to cars.....Davenow is LIGHT years ahead of my knowledge.....I just don't like people who know they know, and know that you know they know, and use it like a tool to measure their manhood on an anonymous public forum to degrade you. You know?

It just seems those kinds of attitudes are floating around this board now...alot more than the old school days.

That's all.

I'm Ryan Seacrest and I'm O U T!

P E A C E !

I hear you on that attitude. The I am a big man behind my keyboard.
If you ever met or meet davenOOb you would see that he is the same in person as on the forum. He doesn't hold back is very passionate and can be a complete *******. ;) That type of person doesn't tick me off half as bad as the person that acts all big and bad online but is just a punk in IRL. I on the other hand am very reserved online compared to IRL.

TMS

Group hug *

:banana:

1. Triton, Sorry, I wasnt calling YOU specifically a moron. You were merely asking about dynos, the people I am refering to are, as I said, the ones who make a big number, then run around with a huge hardon about their meaningless number, then when called out on it at the strip, produce nothing but excuses. We have had that happen several times, from multiple shops in the area. KTR included with their "1000whp" S4, that made 600whp, and 8 million excusepower as to why it ran a crap time at the strip. Or Another local shop, who came to a regional drag last week claiming 500whp, then ran 13's all day long, and again, the excuses flowed.
So see man, I am NOT calling YOU a moron. Get yourself a big impressive dyno sheet, then run around like a jerk with it, then run crap times and make excuses, and I may :p
2. I stick by what I said.
Dynos can easily be made to lie. Period. Dynos are also affected by MANY factors that make their readings completely unreliable. The only way you can show me a dyno chart that I will believe is if you put your car on a dyno, have an independant third party come in and run it, then take it to 2 other dynos and do the same. If all the numbers add up correctly, I will believe it. And you would need to do it on days where the weather/atmospheric conditions are all VERY close, at VERY close to the same altitude, and on the same gas.

Otherwise Show me a timeslip.

BTW guys, if you think I look down on anyone because I know more than them, please, I apologize. :(

I dont look down on people that know less. I look down on gross stupidity. ANd by that I dont mean lack of knowledge, I mean like you lead the horse to the water, you showed it 8921431723987 other horses drinking from the water, and the damned thing stands there and dies of thirst.

Do I know a lot? Maybe. Do I know less than some others? Definately.

The problem is, I call things as I see them. I am honest to a fault. I tell you what IMHO is what I feel is the best advice/info I can give you, and I tell it to you exactly as I think it. Sometimes that comes out harsh, a lot harsher than I mean it to come out. But you gotta believe 99% of the time I have the best intentions. The problem comes when what I say, A. ISnt what the person wanted to hear and/or B. Just came out sounding like I am calling them stupid.

I am also a ball busting bastard :devil: . If I am busting your balls though, 99% of the time its because I like you.
Hell I took the time to make a T shirt with a pic of JGard eating a big phallic sausage to wear to the wicked big meet:lol: :lol: :lol:

hey dave & TMS and any other drag guys

Check this thread and insert input...please (http://www.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10200262#post10200262)

/hijack

So please... if you would like to enlighten me on what to expect " true numbers " not the candy coated ones that Cobb and other EM's are feeding us.


Absolute dyno #s are worthless; it's the delta of #s that hold value. But, all delta values must be measured against baseline references pulled in the same weather/season, with the same (seasonal) fuel, and on the exact same dyno that is properly maintained/calibrated. Otherwise, TMS is correct, use trap speed/time. Also keep in mind there can be +/- 5% baseline delta between individual ECUs/cars.


On KTR's dyno I pulled the following #'s w/ my 04 WRX:
Stock w/ ABE and IC hoses =159hp (baseline)
Stromung TBE (1 hi-flow cat), STi UP, Cobb stage II (v1.21beta) = 192hp
Stromung TBE (1 hi-flow cat), STi UP, ECUtek tuned by Franz = 215hp


FWIW, I've seen G-techs come w/in .01% of KTRs dyno dynamics...

Happy numberbating :D

1. Triton, Sorry, I wasnt calling YOU specifically a moron. You were merely asking about dynos, the people I am refering to are, as I said, the ones who make a big number, then run around with a huge hardon about their meaningless number, then when called out on it at the strip, produce nothing but excuses. We have had that happen several times, from multiple shops in the area. KTR included with their "1000whp" S4, that made 600whp, and 8 million excusepower as to why it ran a crap time at the strip. Or Another local shop, who came to a regional drag last week claiming 500whp, then ran 13's all day long, and again, the excuses flowed.
So see man, I am NOT calling YOU a moron. Get yourself a big impressive dyno sheet, then run around like a jerk with it, then run crap times and make excuses, and I may :p
2. I stick by what I said.
Dynos can easily be made to lie. Period. Dynos are also affected by MANY factors that make their readings completely unreliable. The only way you can show me a dyno chart that I will believe is if you put your car on a dyno, have an independant third party come in and run it, then take it to 2 other dynos and do the same. If all the numbers add up correctly, I will believe it. And you would need to do it on days where the weather/atmospheric conditions are all VERY close, at VERY close to the same altitude, and on the same gas.

Otherwise Show me a timeslip.

I appreciate you taking the time to clarify my concerns. I really do like this board. I check it daily ..many times.. home and at work. Its hella fun and I get great idea's and advice from many of you as to what and where I want to go with my car.

So at that its seems to get a good feel for where my car stands Im going to have to get a timeslip... Im pretty confident in my driving abilities. But have never tested them on a 1/4 mile.

Where are the local strips in the CT region where I can get some times? Id like to see where I am now and then in the fall when Ill have more mods and stage 2 kicking.

Thanks again guys .. ~

You guys dont need to be ****ing ass hats to answer a question that I proposed in context " explaining that I wasnt an experianced tuner "

I come here for assistance... to ask of you " more experianced members for help " and I get ragged on and be little ..

Well f**k you ... Im saying I dont want to romp on my car down a 1/4 mile strech to get a slip that explains whether my car is putting out good power or not.

Do I race at drag strips ?? No I dont. You can explain yourself and advise others without being egotistic c*ck sleeves.

So make your FONT as big as you like .. if thats what it takes to get more chuckles out of your internet buddys

but I guess Ill second think posting anything on this board in regards to something Im not familar with .

Thanks for the info and the answers to some of my questions and misconceptions.. But for the next guy who may post up some questions. Try not to be suck jerks about it.

DAVENOW STRIKES AGAIN!! Stir that pot.

BTW guys, if you think I look down on anyone because I know more than them, please, I apologize. :(

I dont look down on people that know less. I look down on gross stupidity. ANd by that I dont mean lack of knowledge, I mean like you lead the horse to the water, you showed it 8921431723987 other horses drinking from the water, and the damned thing stands there and dies of thirst.

Do I know a lot? Maybe. Do I know less than some others? Definately.

The problem is, I call things as I see them. I am honest to a fault. I tell you what IMHO is what I feel is the best advice/info I can give you, and I tell it to you exactly as I think it. Sometimes that comes out harsh, a lot harsher than I mean it to come out. But you gotta believe 99% of the time I have the best intentions. The problem comes when what I say, A. ISnt what the person wanted to hear and/or B. Just came out sounding like I am calling them stupid.

I am also a ball busting bastard :devil: . If I am busting your balls though, 99% of the time its because I like you.
Hell I took the time to make a T shirt with a pic of JGard eating a big phallic sausage to wear to the wicked big meet:lol: :lol: :lol:

But you didn't put a name tag on so I could recognize you and introduce myself. Or are you afraid that someone will punch you out?
The most friendly people at the meet were from Ct. & RI.

The bottom line is to keep your butt dyno happy. Then you can imagine any kind of horsepower. If you do a mod & it feels better, be happy!

To the original poster.. The Dyno Dynamics dyno that KTR uses reads lower then most Roller dynos. Compare the delta to stock to hp gained. If its not listed call the shop and ask for a printout of the car againt a stock car.

To others. 1/4 mile times are great. I am a drag racer. I love it. Raced for years. Then got my stock WRX and could not for the life of me get under 15.5. I sucked. With practice that changed. Then later that year I clicked off an 11 second pass and cut consistant 1.7 sixty times off the bottle. I could drive. It took me many, many passes to learn the car. You must understand that while 1/4 times and mph are great for comparing setups its really not the best thing in the world to compare. What if the guy cant drive? Does that mean that his 500whp is really 250? No. It means the man cant drive. While I agree comparing Dyno plots is kinda crazy but I personaly think comparing 1/4 miles times is worse.

My 02

C

While I agree comparing Dyno plots is kinda crazy but I personaly think comparing 1/4 miles times is worse.

what about traps though clark? has it been your experience that the trap speed will vary that much despite changes in driving/launching/shifting execution?

-ken