Man I am depressed.
When i was car shopping a couple months ago, the main reason I didnt get the jetta wolfsburg was that consumer reports said reliability sucked, the fact that the 150hp engine was going to be replaced by a 180 hp engine in 3 months.

So i got the RS cuz I needed a car, and really like it.

Then I just read that the 1.8T with the 180 hp is going to cost about the same as the orignal 1.8T with 150hp (just a couple hundred bucks more).

So now there are going to be a bunch of 1.8T's out there with the ability to smoke all us 2.5 RS people?

People see the jetta as a girl car, but now once it gets this engine, what will happen to the RS name, when it gets smoked by a girl car. Ahh!!!!!

Am I wrong about the capabilities of the new 1.8T 180 hp jetta for 2002?


bahboy20

You're more concerned about "getting smoked" by a Volkswagon than the fact that you own a great car?

Sorry I can't help with VW specs. I never cared enough to research them!

I used to own a mkIV jetta. Yea it could be made fast. Spent most of it's life at the dealer being fixed.

Any 1.8T owner can easily make their 150hp into 180hp.

Brian

No, i am not overly concerned myself about getting smoked by a jetta. I dont even race on the street or the track or anywhere.

I just dont see how they can put such a nice engine into an already nice car, and have it cost as much as the RS.

The interior of the jetta is so much more plush and in my opinion stylish and luxurious.

Howver, I used to tell myself'ok the jetta has looks, the impreza has the performance'

Now, it looks like the jetta has decent looks (cookie cutter though it is), and now even greater performance.

Now all i can say about the RS is that it has AWD. That doesnt get me much excpet if its inclement weather, and that only happens a couple times a year.

Is the 180hp 1.8T a better engine? I supposed since the hp went up, the torque did as well, though I dont have those specs.

So now is the jetta (with a cheap package like the wolfsburg that adds some sportiness and supsension) a better overall car than the 2.5 RS?

I am talking about a true stock 180hp car, not taking a 150 to a 180hp. Now people will be able to take their 180hp jettas to close to 200hp with some relatively cheap options, like a boost controller, and stuff, right?
ugh





:mad: :(


bahboy20

no b/c the jetta is so UNRELIABLE...it will never handle as good as a rs. the jetta isn't as nice as everyone thinks it is, i owed a 2000 jetta for 2 years.

Brian

and the VW is also heavy, and handles like a pig.

and think of it this way...they might be able to speed by you easier, but it's only cause they need to go see the mechanic ASAP! :lol:

that 180hp engine is the same as the 150hp engine...VW probably just added a chip like everyone does after they buy it. The 1.8T is one amazing engine...you can get so much power out of it so easily. The Audi TT has the same engine and makes 225hp..all it has is a larger turbo and an intercooler.

Brian

we had a 2k jetta and a 2k passat 4-motion....the dealer was part of our family...that's how unreliable they are

Brian

The Jetta's built in Mexico! Now consider it has a two year factory warranty...

'Nuff said.

well the rs can still out handle the jetta even with the "sport" suspension

I had a '96 Jetta, and that thing was a nightmare on wheels. It handled great, tons of fun to drive, but I think everything electrical in that car broke. It stranded me more than my '89 Escort and '83 Pontiac 6000 *combined*. And those two cars were shlock personified.

Everything that I have read on the 1.8t says it is a mint to maintain. Both Road and Trac and Car and Drivers long term tests of the 1.8t beetle (same car different skin) had super high maintence cost. they went through clutches before 30,000 and just plain old needed lots of repair.
My friend has a 1.8t beetle and it is true his spends soo much time at the dealer. Nothing major yet but lots of little things take it out of comission for days on end. His brother in laws 2000 4motion passat is usually at the garage with the beetle also

I owned a 1994 Golf till about 6 months ago (120,000 miles) just routine maintanance. My brother 97 Jetta 65,000 miles no problems. Both cars were driven at numerous track days. I do agree that some of my friends did have cars that were not as reliable.

I considered the Jetta Wolfsburg when i bought my car. For me it was that i had to figure out exactly what i wanted in a car. The wolfsburg was slanted a little more towards luxury and subaru a little more towards sportiness.

Exterior:
Subaru looks better hands down (own a 2001 2.5 RS). Paint quality on Subaru is just embarrasing. Subaru please paint under the hood.

Interior:
Jetta is more luxurious and definately has a very Audi feel to it. Subaru no thrills everything is where it is supposed to be.

Handling:
The Jettas have gotten heavier. The suspension has gone to hell over the year MKII were best handling of the lot. The suspension feels like a caddy. The Subaru handles 10X better than the Jetta out of the box. Even the sport package ones. When VW goes away from the torsion beam rear suspension i will consider them again.

To me it came down to the fact that i wanted AWD. The impreza had that also the other things i wanted as standard (sunroof,cd player). From a performance stand point the weight distribution was better. The brakes on the Subaru were two piston as opposed to VW one. Although the VW brake feel is leaps and bounds better than Subaru. AWD. Fully independant suspension.

I am not looking a luxury car in my life atleast not yet. So that said, Subaru was the right choice for me. If i could afford the A4 that would be my choice over the 2.5 RS.

Hope all this makes sense.

The Jetta is a luxury car in my opinion. It is for people who want a nice "sporty" car. Granted they can be made into monsters cheaply. An RS on the other hand is an "enthusiasts" car. Put COBB's power package stage 1 on your car and you'll be the one doing the smoking!

As you can see below the 2001 Jetta is no match for a 2001 RS, it is 200 pounds heavier and down on power and tourque. now the 2002 RS weighs 300 pounds more than the 2001 so thats not in your favor. And if the new Jetta is getting 180hp you probably wont stack up, but wait 2 year till his warentee runs out and he starts forking out 500 bucks a month in repairbills :-)



2001 VW Jetta GLS 1.8T
MSRP: $19,200
Destination Charges: $550
MPG: City / Hwy 25/31
Horsepower: 150@ 5700

Capacity
Cargo Volume: (EPA/Mfr) 13/13.0
Fuel Capacity: 14.5
Tow Package: (Std/Max) NR/NR
Seating: 5
Pass. Vol.: 86.9

Engine
Type: 1.8L I4
Displacement: 1781/109
Valves: 20
Torque: 155@1950
Fuel System: SEFI
Transmission: 5 Speed Manual
Fuel Economy: 25/31


Exterior
Curb Weight: (MT/AT) 2952/3005
Weight Dist.: (Fr-Aft) NL/NL-NL/NL
Wheelbase: 98.9
Length: 172.3
Width: 68.3
Height: 56.9

Steering
Steering Diam.: (Curb) 32.8/32.8
Drive Type: FR/FWD
Brakes (Fr/Rr): Disc/Disc
Steering: R&P
Suspension: Ind/Semi
Tires: 195/65R15


Interior
Head Room: (Fr/Rr) 38.6/36.9
Leg Room: (Fr/Rr) 41.5/33.5
Shoulder Room: (Ft/Rr) 53.7/52.5
Hip Room: (Ft/Rr) NL/NL

Warranty
Basic: (Months/Miles) 24/24000
Powertrain: (Months/Miles) 120/100000
Rust: (Months/Miles) 144/Unlimited

OK OK

VW is listening to you all (me including) and for 2002 the warranty is extended to 4/50000. Does it make WRX automaticaly worse car ? I do not think so.


"Volkswagen 2002 Warranty Changes
July 3, 12:00 - NEWS: Today, Volkswagen of America, Inc. announced a new vehicle warranty available on all 2002 Volkswagen models that begin arriving at U.S. dealerships this month and throughout the summer and fall. Volkswagen said it based its new warranty for the 2002 model year on customer research and feedback, creating a more optimal warranty focused on providing even better comprehensive coverage for today's Volkswagen customer.

For the 2002 model year, all new Volkswagen vehicles will come standard with an increased four-year/50,000 mile (whichever occurs first) bumper-to- bumper warranty, up from two years/24,000 miles. The warranty covers wear- and-tear items and adjustments during the initial 12 months or 12,000 miles of ownership.

In addition, Volkswagen will offer a fully transferable limited powertrain warranty that covers five years or 60,000 miles (previously 10 years/100,000 miles, but transferable only from the original retail owner to a family member).

"Volkswagen's previous Protection Plus Warranty, which was the first of its kind in the industry when we launched it some six years ago, has offered many customers benefits -- especially to those owners who plan to own a Volkswagen for many years to come," said Frank Maguire, vice president in charge of sales and marketing. "We want to be responsive to our customers and research tells us the new 4/50 offers what today's buyer expects from a premium warranty. It reflects our commitment to meeting the evolving preferences of our customers."

Volkswagen's new warranty plan also includes the added security of a four- year/50,000 mile, 24-hour roadside assistance program (increased from 2001's two-year term).

Exceptional corrosion perforation coverage remains 12 years with no mileage limit for all fully-galvanized Volkswagen vehicles (Cabrio covered for six years, Eurovan for eight years.)"


I do have 97 VW Passat Variant (Wagon). It drives nicely but it could have spent less time at the dealer.

Krzys

OK. I just can't stand here and read this anymore without commenting.

First, I am a Volkswagen driver *and* a Subaru fan.

I understand where you guys are coming from but there is some serious misinformation and exaggeration in this thread.

First of all, I know some of you love to attack VW reliability. I will be the first to tell you, statisically, Subaru's are more reliable than VW's---- however the difference is not as great as many suggest.

Check Consumers Reports and you will see that the Jetta is right on par with the rest of the European imports. A Mercedes E-Class has right around the same rating. So does the 3 series BMW.

I understand that some people have an inferiority complex and feel the need to attack another vehicle in the same class/price range as their own. If that's your bag then go to it, but get your facts straight.

As far as the warranty, Volkswagens now have a 4 year/50,000 bumper to bumper warranty. I bought my Jetta GL TDI (new body style) in 1999, so I have the old 2 yr/24,000 warranty, but I also have a 10 yr/100,000 mile powertrain warranty which covers all of the expensive bits on the car including the entire engine and transmission, differential, ECU and turbocharger. That's not too shabby.

As far as the tool who made the comment about Volkswagens being built in Mexico. What are you implying? That Mexican people can't build a car well? That is like me saying that the Japanese people who built your car couldn't assemble it properly because they cannot see through their squinty eyes. It smacks of racism in other words.

I agree that the stock RS has better handling then the stock Jetta having driven both. Volkswagen needs to firm up the suspension on the Jetta/Golf. The New Beetle comes with a sport suspension and 16" wheels and as a result has handling much closer to the RS than the others.

The Subaru has all-wheel drive which is a huge advantage, or can be depending on the climate where you live.

It is a matter of personal preference.

I think you will find that a 1.8T Jetta will give an RS a challenge. 180 hp is nothing to sneeze at and the torque is on tap at just 1700 rpm.

Subarus and Volkswagens are both great and unique cars. I like them both.

When I was getting ready to buy a car, I was torn between the Jetta and a Forester. I drove both.

I decided on the Jetta because I commute on the beltway here in D.C. I do not need all-wheel drive. I need a car that is comfortable and fun to drive. The Jetta, and all of the Volkswagens (in my opinon) are just alot nicer looking than any of the current Subarus. Just my opinion. I had to *try* to like the way the Forester looks and there is no way I could every like the bullfrog-looking New Age Impreza. I don't care how fast it is.

Anyone of you guys could kick my ass in a race. I drive a 90 hp turbodiesel. I chose my car for it's great low-end torque, phenomenal mileage (I average 48 mpg) and longevity. Diesels are reliable and last forever. As far as the Jetta itself after examing both I found the Jetta seems more sturdy. There is alot more metal in places and it is thicker. The paint was better. The seats were more sturdily constructed. Overall there just seems to be more care and quality put into the assembly. That is not a put-down to Subarus, just the facts as I see them after carefully examining both cars.

I am still a big fan of Subarus (my first car was an XT turbo!) and I always will be. I just prefer Volkswagens thats all.

P.S. for what its worth my Jetta has 28,000 miles on it and I have not had a single problem to date. It's the best car I have ever owned.

i oogle at my dad's car. he has a 2001 jetta TDI ... granted, the thing is only 90 hp, it kicks out 145ft of torque. It will stay even with a 1.8t until about 30mph ... that sounds like nothing, but it gets more than twice the gas mileage! :)

th Upsolute chip for my dads car puts it at 115hp and 185ft-torque. so much torque ... oh dear lord the torque.

i dont know the exact specs on a chip upgrade for a 1.8t but if the help the torque like they do on the 1.9 deisel engine, then its a thing to fear.

handling wise - RS rocks the block.

luxury wise - jetta is a better buy.

price - the jetta's gonna be a bit more (my dads car was $20,500.)

looks - the jetta is cute. the RS is hardcore cool.

overall - my dad has a jetta. i will have an rs soon. best of both worlds. im happy :D

Actually, I did look at the consumer reports.
Jetta for 2001 did bad for reliablity, so it has been taken off their recommended cars list. Thats not quite on par with the european cars, but I am sure there are some european cars that get bad reliability ratings.


bahboy20

Right on, brother.

Actually it's 155 ftlbs of torque stock.

The torque peaks at 1900 RPM

Peak horsepower is 90 hp at 3750 RPM.

It doesn't sound like much, but you would be suprised.

The TDI is not a performance car in stock form, but it's not slow.

In Europe, VW sells a bunch of hi-po TDI's that you performance types would probably love. There are even 4Motion (all wheel drive) TDI's.

The 150 horsepower pumpe-düse TDI Golf will out accelerate a 1.8T and will even spank the VR6 in some situations...and it gets 42 mpg doing it. Not for everyone, but you have to admit that is cool. A Diesel that kicks butt is the ultimate sleeper. :)

As for the Consumers Reports issue, you are right about the Jetta being removed from the "recommended" list. So was the previous generation Impreza, I might add. Both are still good cars. It is an honor to even be recommended in the first place. Most cars they review do NOT get this designation at all in the first place. For what it is worth, the Golf and Passat are both still "recommended".

P.S. My office mate says no matter what I say the previous gen Impreza RS (what he has) is better looking than my Jetta. We agree to disagree. I don't have the fetish for faux hood scoops that he does ;)

Yeah but its made in Mexico :p

Hehe. Seriously, I dont want my German car made in Mexico i want it made in Germany. I would have no objection to buying a Mexican car if it was made in Mexico, but to me building a German car in Mexico that is just trying to cust costs and cut corners by utilizing less paid laborers in mexico to make their cars. I like my Subie cuz its made in Japan. I know the Legacies are made in the USA but to be honest, I haveless faith in them vs. Imprezas just because of that fact. No racism here. Maybe I'm just a traditionalist in that way.

BTW, Jetta TDI will not out accellerate a 1.8t. Maybe better for towing perhaps? But then I'd buy an Excursion withthe powerstroke diesel. Diesel is meant for hauling not racing. 90hp is still 90 hp.

Jettas made before NAFTA are going to be more reliable than ones after--when meant they started churning them out in Mexico. The place where a car is made makes a big difference in terms of reliability. Japan>Germany>Southern US>Detroit>Mexico.

My cousin has a 2000 Jetta. Not the 1.8T, it's the cheapo model. I don't like anything about it, inside or outside. I'd pick an Impreza over that any day.

Mike

Originally posted by Samirr76
Yeah but its made in Mexico :p

Hehe. Seriously, I dont want my German car made in Mexico i want it made in Germany. I would have no objection to buying a Mexican car if it was made in Mexico, but to me building a German car in Mexico that is just trying to cust costs and cut corners by utilizing less paid laborers in mexico to make their cars. I like my Subie cuz its made in Japan. I know the Legacies are made in the USA but to be honest, I haveless faith in them vs. Imprezas just because of that fact. No racism here. Maybe I'm just a traditionalist in that way.

BTW, Jetta TDI will not out accellerate a 1.8t. Maybe better for towing perhaps? But then I'd buy an Excursion withthe powerstroke diesel. Diesel is meant for hauling not racing. 90hp is still 90 hp.


I hear where you are coming from. A German car made in Germany has more novelty factor. I would like it better if my Jetta was made in Germany. I knew it was made in Mexico when I bought it, I could have bought a Golf, which at the time WAS made in Germany, but I am smart enough to know there is no difference except where they are built. Quality is the same, so I chose the Jetta, which I prefer over the Golf. But I do understand what you are saying.

I think you will find that the Legacy has equal quality and reliabilty to the Impreza. They are both made from the same parts.

As for the Jetta TDI. I won't claim to be an expert on Subaru's but when it comes to TDI's I know what I am talking about. The 150 HORSEPOWER PUMPE-DUSE TDI 1.9 sold in Europe, which I was referring to will handily outaccelerate a 1.8T. It has the same horsepower at lower RPM and about 60% more torque. Trust me on that. It would give your RS's a run for the money too ;)

90 hp is still 90 hp, you are right about that. However diesels are a different animal. Drive a gasoline car with 90 hp and then drive my car and see what I mean. A gasoline car with 90 hp would be lucky to crank out 110 lbft of torque, wheras my 90 hp diesel produces nearly as much torque as your 2.5 liter RS motor. (155 lbft vs. 166 lbft)

My 90 hp diesel is easily as fast or faster than my friends 115 hp 2.0 Jetta (not that that is saying much, but hey)

You're still holding on to some old ideas about diesels there, ie your comments about diesels being only for towing.

I am sure if you rode in a BMW 330d on the autobahn at 145 mph you would have a different opinion. ;)

My fiance has a 95 jetta with the base engine. It's really slow without the VR6 (1.8t was not available then). All the major components are still working quite well but everything else is falling apart. Still, I'd rather it be that way than the opposite. ;)

The shifter is pretty sloppy and it's definitely not a great handler (oem suspension). But as far as I'm concerned I don't drive FWD cars. So for me, the Jetta would never be an option. It's either AWD or RWD.

Here are some links for Samirr and anyone else who is interested in expanding their automotive knowledege a little:


http://www.motorbar.co.uk/330tour.htm

http://www.bmw.co.uk/model/roadtestreport/index/1,1227,COUK%7C021-000-----275,00.html


I found plenty of links about the 150 hp pumpe-düse TDI, but they are all in other languages.

Originally posted by turbodieselboy



I hear where you are coming from. A German car made in Germany has more novelty factor. I would like it better if my Jetta was made in Germany. I knew it was made in Mexico when I bought it, I could have bought a Golf, which at the time WAS made in Germany, but I am smart enough to know there is no difference except where they are built. Quality is the same, so I chose the Jetta, which I prefer over the Golf. But I do understand what you are saying.

I think you will find that the Legacy has equal quality and reliabilty to the Impreza. They are both made from the same parts.


I strongly disagree here. It's not a question of parts, it's a question of assembly and the care and skill of the workers. The Germans will have a lot more training, more education, more experience, and some personal pride in making a car. And having German supervisors in Mexico will only catch so much. It's really crazy to suggest otherwise.
And I bet most people here think that the Imprezas ARE better made than the Legacies that come out of Tennessee.

Why are you concerned, my modded 1997 Impreza L roasted two morons in one trying to race me off the line, in a straight-away and lost them easily into the corners, at 90 mph going around a bend in the highway their car looked like it was going to tip over.
You got a much better car, have you ever driven a VW in the snow? I have, about as much fun as driving on slicks in the rain.

No offense to VW lovers, but the new ones are far too cheesy for me, too many useless gimmicks and mood lighting, gimme something fast, that lasts and I won't have to worry about the entire electrical system going

You can quote me on this, I have picked up EVERY SINGLE one of my friends who own VW's (about 8 people) after their cars ranging from an 1986 GLI whose alternator would fail after about 3,000 miles to a 2001 Jetta after the computer failed and the car slammed to a stop for no apparent reason.

This is a rather interesting post, so I thought I would chime in with some thoughts...
1) Mr_Disco - It is my understanding that the Legacy line for the U.S. is assembled in Indiana in a shared plant with Isuzu. At least that was the case with my '97 Legacy Outback.
2) I agree that there is a difference between vehicles built in places other than their homeland...my Legacy vs my Impreza is one example. The Legacy is a very reliable car, but is very different in assembly quality than the Impreza (or my '98 Forester S, for that matter) in areas like dash to door fit, trim panels for hvac and radio areas, glove box fit, PAINT THICKNESS (Legacy wins that one!), and a few other little things here and there....like the door lock rod falling off inside the door on the Legacy because the c-clip came off.
3) This is not a limited problem...ask someone who has owned a "German" Mercedes and an "Alabama" Mercedes. All the tests on the M-class comment on the cheaper feel and lower quality fit/finish of these vehicles. I am friends with a person who was involved in the huge event that Mercedes put on at the plant when it grand opened and the facility is very state of the art, but it's not the same. BMW owners....look at a Z3..nice car, right? Now look at a "German" BMW.....light years of difference in the assembly process. My brother has always owned a Honda...'78, '83, '90, '99, and now a '00 or '01 CL Type S. There is a difference....when the Marysville plant first opened, you could tell.

Anyway, just wanted to chime in...the cars are still good, there is just a difference in the little things....stuff that requires attention to detail. Think about a bunch of Autoworkers who have been bred to hate foreign cars now actually building them....with that fantastic quality control mindset that GM, Ford and Chrysler have created over the years!
Doug
P.S.
As far as Mexican labor, my home town of Atlanta, Ga has developed a large Latino population over the last 7 years and from what I have seen, they have an enviable work ethic.

i thought subaru was alstrailian?

tellme you are joking about that one?
must be those crocodile dundee commercials, eh mate?

If it makes you feel any better I raced a new Audi 1.8T and kicked its ass!

Originally posted by mr_disco


I strongly disagree here. It's not a question of parts, it's a question of assembly and the care and skill of the workers. The Germans will have a lot more training, more education, more experience, and some personal pride in making a car. And having German supervisors in Mexico will only catch so much. It's really crazy to suggest otherwise.
And I bet most people here think that the Imprezas ARE better made than the Legacies that come out of Tennessee.


OK. Lets talk about assembly and the skill of the workers. Actually lets examine some of the statements you made:

1) "The Germans will have a lot more training, more education, more experience, and some personal pride in making a car. And having German supervisors in Mexico will only catch so much. It's really crazy to suggest otherwise."

What are you basing this on? The Germans have more training? What training do they have that the Mexican workers do not? More experience? The Mexican factory has been building Volkswagens since 1971. I think they have some experience there. Personal pride? OK, so Mexican's do not have personal pride in their work? Or they have less pride than Germans?

You think I am crazy to suggest otherwise. Interesting. I guess we are entitled to our own opinions. Am I the only person here that thinks your opinion may be a little racist and judgemental and based on zero facts and zero knowledge? Where is your evidence? ..and I don't mean anecdotal evidence like your brother's uncle's sisters, father-in-law who had an '84 Jetta that had electrical problems. That doesn't carry any weight.

2) "And I bet most people here think that the Imprezas ARE better made than the Legacies that come out of Tennessee."

I bet a lot of people think a lot of things. That does not make them facts.

As far as what Scoober said about the quality of the Mercedes built in Alabama. I agree that the German-built Mercedes are nicer.

I think it has more to do with the fact that the M-class and Z3 are around $30k and the other Mercedes are $50k.

Most will agree that Mercedes quality overall has gone downhill in recent years.

I understand why people think cars built in other countries (other than their country of origin) are not as good.

I am still waiting to see convincing evidence of this... :rolleyes:

Turbodieselboy,
I wonder if this theory applies to reverse order....are Cosworth Escorts better made than their U.S. built siblings? What about Canadian built "Big 3" cars?
I agree with you on the lower cost of the U.S. built German cars having an impact on their overall quality, but it was my understanding that these vehicles were being assembled here as a way to reduce the cost of the vehicle. In either case, I find this topic to be rather compelling. I have also heard the VW horror stories with regards to electronics and excessive trips to the dealer, but as of this time I have not owned a VW to base an opinion on, so I shall hold off on that area. I have seen the new vehicles that are Mexican built and in comparison to the older cars, they seem to be much nicer cars. This may have something to do with the advances in overall automotive technologies in the past decade, rather than assembly plant, but it seems that VW's products now are a major improvement from the cars of even 10 years ago. (I am speaking only of appearance of new vehicles, as I have no experience with VW as a personal vehicle).
I also agree that the statement about the Mexican builders not having pride was way off base...as my last line in my previous post will indicate.

Bottom line - If you dig far enough, all cars will start to look sort of shabby! It's all about what you are willing to accept in terms of quality vs performance. Ferraris are very capable performers, but the rumours are that they are not very reliable. Granted, most see the same mileage in a lifetime that we put on a car in a year, but it's a sacrafice.....performance for reliability.

Maybe the fact that the quality of everything else you buy is affected by where it was made? Clothing, watches, skis, crafts, electronic devices...

Mr_Disco,
You list a 2002 Trance Sport as your vehicle....what is that?

It's the TS Sport wagon. No one knows what TS officially stands for so... my guess is as good as anyone elses! :lol:

Originally posted by ITR&RSGUY
As you can see below the 2001 Jetta is no match for a 2001 RS, it is 200 pounds heavier and down on power and tourque. now the 2002 RS weighs 300 pounds more than the 2001 so thats not in your favor. And if the new Jetta is getting 180hp you probably wont stack up, but wait 2 year till his warentee runs out and he starts forking out 500 bucks a month in repairbills :-)



2001 VW Jetta GLS 1.8T
MSRP: $19,200
Destination Charges: $550
MPG: City / Hwy 25/31
Horsepower: 150@ 5700

Engine
Type: 1.8L I4
Displacement: 1781/109
Valves: 20
Torque: 155@1950
Fuel System: SEFI
Transmission: 5 Speed Manual
Fuel Economy: 25/31









this is what 500 bucks does to the 1.8t jettas

http://www.goapr.com/images/dyno_jetta_18t_stage_i.gif

not at all down on power, and deffinately not torque... not to mention that its got all the turbo neccessitys so things like switching out the k03 turbo for a k04 is just as easy as buying the new turbo.....

look at the chart, it says it all, at 2000rpm the jetta with the apr chip puts out as much torque as the impreza does at peak, true the impreza has better handling and awd, but if straight line is your thing, the 1.8t is for you, but straightline = boring

Japan>Germany>Southern US>Detroit>Mexico.
Really? My RS came with two right side fog lights... didn't notice till one foggy evening i switched them on and i was blasting a column of light into the sky. heh.

A well reasoned reponse, Scoober.

I agree that if you dig deep enough you will find problems with any vehicle, just poke around around on these very forums for a while.

I also believe that in general Subaru's are more reliable than Volkswagens, though Volkswagens have their own advantages.

If I had the money I would have a Volkswagen *and* a Subaru too. :)

Overall if you look at the problems-per-vehicle statistics over the last 15 years you'll see that all car makes have improved markedly.

The American and European brands have improved the most while the Japanese have built on their already industy-leading initial quality index.

Today's Volkswagen is as reliable or more reliable then a Honda of 10 years ago.

The one problem with the initial quality index is that they do not distinguish between types of problems or their severity.

Case in point:

According to J.D. Power's popular index:

An issue that causes complete brake failure on a new Ponitac Grand Am = one problem.

An issue that causes the rear defrost to not work 1 out 100 times in a new Impreza = one problem.

You can see how that makes the most popular way of measuring car's reliability a little limited in it's usefulness.

The same applies to Consumers Reports (which I trust completely) but they do essentially the same thing. They call people up who have new cars and do a phone survey.

"Hi Mrs. Johnson. Have you had any transmission problems with your new Buick?"

"Oh, no it's been just great." (meanwhile her tranny slips in every gear but she is too unobservant to notice.


Surveyer marks one clear circle for Buick tranny,

"Hi Mr. Jones. Have you had any trasmission trouble with your new Nissan?"

"Yes, damn it. It makes this little whirring noise every time I put it in reverse"

Surveyer marks one black circle for Nissan tranny.


OK--- now of course this is an exaggeration, but you can see that the phone survey is not the most scientific way to measure something.

Would you take a prescription drug if you knew all the research was done by telelphone surveying test patients without ever examining them in person?

Just something to think about.

Turbodiesel,
Do a little multi-cultural research as I have just done for the last two years and you'll discover just how different cultures are especially when it comes to work ethic and pride.

Pride is subjective according to cultural orientation.

Some cultures don't value material possessions as much as we do so products produced in those countries MAY (and notice I said MAY) exhibit less quality than those produced in countries that are highly materialistic like the U.S. ( I know...bad example) or Germany. The problem with Americans is that we are so individualistic that no two of us have the same opinions on what is quality and what is not.

So, yes, theoretically, the same make of cars produced in different countries could exhibit huge quality differences.

Tis not racist...It is just a sociological and anthropological fact.

Sean

Good point kalins1

I remember watching a film in one of my many sociology classes in school, and they were going over cultural differences, and the work place. They were focusing on Germany in one part and in Germany, it is decided early on if you are university bound or if you are going to work on BMW Mercedes carentry what ever.
Well from there you essentially serve apprentiships. THey focused on a guy that was going to assemble for Mercedes. He went through a 2 year program of school and hands on learnig from masters the art of producing the car, and learned every part of the car. Also workers are required given their own tools to use. By having their own tools and there was a sense of pride instilled in the workers. And I beleive that all the extra training/apprentiship adds to your pride.
you kinda learn to love what you produce.

Look at it this way, if you think a car is as good as its parts, not as good as its assemblers. Make a wish list of aftermarket parts for your car spareing no cost, for example if your a honda guy get Mugen everything. Now take all those parts unpack them, put your car up on a rack with all the parts acessable right below and then let the chimp out of its cage.


VW'S ARE CRAP, EVEN THIS NEW JETTA, OH BOY 180 HP, IN A FI 1.8 LITER, THATS CRAP, HONDA AND TOYOTA BOTH GET THAT MUCH OR MORE OUT OF 1.8LITERS WITH NO FI, CELICA GT-S =180HP, INTEGRA TYPE R = 195HP OUT OF 1.8 LITERS. ANY CAR MANUFACTURER THAT CAN ONLY GET 100HP/LITER RELAIBLEY ( IN VW'S CASE UNRELIABLEY) IN A FI CAR OBVIOUSLY DOESN'T PAY THEIR ENGINEERS ENOUGH. CAN YOU IMAGINE IF HONDA PUT TURBOS FROM THE FACTORY ON THEIR VTEC'S INTEGRAS AND PRELUDES???? SCAREY, THE WRX IS A GOOD EXAMPLE OF WHAT YOU SHOULD EXPECT, ABOUT 115HP/LITER ON LOW BOOST, PRETTY GOOD, BUT STILL COULD BE BETTER:-)

I hear you dude, but whats with all the caps?


bahboy20

Yeah, could someone summarize what he said for me? I couldn't get through the all caps.

edit: I could have sworn I spelled it right the first time.

How many Mexican people do you know personally?

I know a few. I don't know any who don't take pride in their work or who are incompetent idiots or anti-materialistic communists.

If anything, Mexican people work harder because they have to. In an economy like Germany or Japan's working in a factory makes you a blue collar reject. In Mexico it is a different story. Volkswagens sell very well in Mexico and South America and the people who build them are proud.

You can blame it on socialogical phenomena all you want, but all you are doing is reinforcing racial stereotypes.

If you want to believe Mexicans have a poor work ethic therefore VW = crap then go ahead and believe it. I cannot stop you, but don't insult our intelligence by blaming your bigotry on "sociological fact".

Sure, there are differences in culture. I agree. Do you want to show me where in the Sociological textbook it says Mexicans have no work ethic?


To the last schmuck who posted in all caps.

The WRX is cool because it is fast, but you all know it is not put together like a European car. The flimsy doors, spray can paint job and extremely tacky styling that will look dated in 4 years show through. It is a fast car with all wheel drive though and that kicks ass. I would love to have one, but I would take a slower GTI volkswagen over a WRX because I am more interested in something that is tastefully designed. European cars are like works of art. Most Japanese stuff is either poor imitation of European designs or it is just F-ing hideous and tacky looking.

You guys know this is true and that is why you can't stop talking about Audi kills in your WRX. Who cares?

I've DRIVEN a WRX on a test drive here in Tysons Corner. It was scary fast, I will admit (though it had the worst turbo lag I have ever seen) It had great handling and a nice steering wheel. However the corners that were cut to build the car at that price could not be more obvious. It's all about priorities. f max speed for your buck is your desire the WRX or a Camaro can fit the bill for sure, but you make other sacrfices.

Say what you will about VW reliablity, but in 10 years, when the last of the WRX's are rattling down the road with blown turbos, peeling paint, sun faded fake carbon fiber trim and holes all through the upolstery, my Jetta will still have that nice solid "thud" when I shut the door, the paint will still look good and the interior will be in good shape.

It's all about priorities. To each his or her own. We have differerent priorities.

This is turning into a serious racial debate.

The wrx has fake carbon fiber? I thought it was real!!
Hmm...I didnt know it had such bad turbo lag, my friend has one and a eclipse gsx with 400+ hp and he didnt complain about the lag.

you are saying the vw's turbos are longer lasting then the wrx?


bahboy20

Neither Subaru or VW make their own turbos. I'd say all things being equal the turbos would last about the same.

It depends on what turbo we are talking about and how the car is driven. Something tells me there are not going to be a lot of WRX's warmed up carefully and driven to church on Sunday by little old ladies.

No, they are going to be thrashed. Live fast and die hard and go down in a blaze of glory. Then some chump will buy a used WRX with 75,000 miles on it in 4 years and the guts will drop out of it on the way out of the used car lot.

On the other hand there are lots of Audi 1.8T's that are well maintained and driven in spirited but responsible manner. Sure, they are not as fast as a WRX, but they are classier and more well-built than any Subaru well ever be. It's all about priorities.

A 227 hp WRX took a 400 hp Eclipse? Did I read that right?

nope, you misread my post.
My friend has a wrx and a 400+hp gsx. Actually his mom bout the wrx but he is driving it.
He owns em both, is what I mean.


bahboy20

Of course the carbon fiber is fake. They won't even give you REAL wood or aluminum trim and those materials are alot less expensive then carbon fiber.

Everything in that car is fake except the speed. The speed is very real.

The major turbo lag is also real, but with that much power it is easy to let that go. Though I don't imagine a WRX would be much fun to drive in stop and go traffic because of that fact.

Give me a nice windy BLM road out west and a WRX. That would be all right! :)

Back here in the real world though, I can't afford a disposable econo-rocket. I need solid comfortable economical long-lasting transportation. I am really more of a Volvo 240/ Diesel Jetta kind of person. Not exactly the target demographic for the WRX, but I did enjoy my 10 minute test drive. :)

What!??

I was almost positive the CF was real.
I thought the website said it was carbon fiber, and it looked real to me. Why does it cost so much if its fake?

I know the aluminum look inside isnt real aluninum, but i swore the CF was real!


bahboy20

"To the last schmuck who posted in all caps"

Hey it did it's job, got you to pull your head at least partial out from between your A$$ cheaks, people can have their opinions, no one cares what your opinion of style is, so why do you think saying the WRX styling will be out dated in 4 years will weigh heavy with anyone, hello? ALL styles go out, hence the phrase" out of style", are you to tell me your VW will still be stylish in 10 years? Ha! Also how the hell do you know that in 10 years the WRX will have faded paint and holes in the upolstry and a blown turbo, and your VW will still be solid, Am I to believe you have done indepth time elapsed tests on subaru's paint they use on the WRX, or have read any reliablity litiature on the Turbo they use. I doubt it, Anyone that claims such things as facts is an absolute dolt. I think you've made you pro moron anti educated adgenda quite clear.

all vw cars have very high low end torque, they'll get off the line faster but undoubtably they can't match the mid range AWD system of a subaru

Originally posted by ITR&RSGUY
"To the last schmuck who posted in all caps"

Hey it did it's job, got you to pull your head at least partial out from between your A$$ cheaks, people can have their opinions, no one cares what your opinion of style is, so why do you think saying the WRX styling will be out dated in 4 years will weigh heavy with anyone, hello? ALL styles go out, hence the phrase" out of style", are you to tell me your VW will still be stylish in 10 years? Ha! Also how the hell do you know that in 10 years the WRX will have faded paint and holes in the upolstry and a blown turbo, and your VW will still be solid, Am I to believe you have done indepth time elapsed tests on subaru's paint they use on the WRX, or have read any reliablity litiature on the Turbo they use. I doubt it, Anyone that claims such things as facts is an absolute dolt. I think you've made you pro moron anti educated adgenda quite clear.

I guess style is a matter of opinion...or should I say taste. I just don't remember the last time I remember reading any automotive journalist with anything nice to say about Subaru's styling...or the quality of their materials for that matter.

Sure, everything goes out of style, but tastefully designed cars always look good. Look at the first generation Jetta designed by Itladesign-Giugaro. It still looks clean. Sure, it looks like a 1980's car, but it is tasteful. Look at any 10 year old BMW or 20 year old Mercedes. It's called class. Taste. I would not expect you to understand. Perhaps that is too much to ask. The WRX does not look good NOW and it will look even worse in five years. The Japanese just don't get it when it comes to these things. They can build reliable cars though. My friends '91 Honda Accord is a perfect example. It has 220,000 original miles. The paint is faded. The interior is shot, the dashboard is cracking. It squeaks an creaks, but it has no mechanical problems to speak of. It runs like a top, but all of the cheap flimsy interior pieces are disintergrating. If only the Japanese would build what they do now, but not make everything as lightweight and weak as possible. That would be great.

If you still don't get it, open the door of your Impreza and hang from it. Put your full weight on it. Then do the same to a Volkswagen.

Getting the picture yet?

By the way, before you go calling anyone a moron you might want to learn how to spell worth a $hit.

It's C-H-E-E-K-S genius. Even my 6 year old nephew can spell better than that. He can also figure out how to toggle the caps lock key on and off. Smart kid :)

Okay, how about this...
Mexican made cars are of lower quality because the
German bosses at those factories are racist. They
assume that Mexican workers cannot produce the same quality cars as German workers, and hold them to lower standards. The Mexican workers, not getting the respect they deserve, lose their interest and motivation to produce the highest quality car possible. Furthermore, if they sense racism from there bosses, they might be disinclined to work harder for their benefit. Just a theory, but the point is that the suggestion that Mexican made Jetta's are of inferior quality is not necessarily racist.

Oh, and shame on the Japanese for making lightweight cars! Everybody knows that f=ma, so all you have to do is make your car heavier for it to be more forceful. And everybody wants more forceful cars, that way you can hear the door go "thud."

And this used to be such a civil board.......
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I did the CAPS on purpose buddy, please stop trying to use such a petty thing as ammo, its pretty lame bud. Hey I am an engineer, I won't even begin to try to defend my spelling, one thing I do know is that hanging off a door is by no means a good way of determining what quality is, ha! Anyway, I guess it comes down to what people want in a car, if you want a boaring, heavy box that looks like every other damn cookie cutter POS on the block go for the yuppie no personality look. If you want a car that is different, lighter, faster, hadles better, brakes better, accelerates better, sounds better (opinion), and has more cutting edge technology, go with Japanese. When was the last time a VW came out with an inovative new feature...............other than the SUPER DOOR!! haha

Originally posted by turbodieselboy
How many Mexican people do you know personally?

I know a few. I don't know any who don't take pride in their work or who are incompetent idiots or anti-materialistic communists.

If anything, Mexican people work harder because they have to. In an economy like Germany or Japan's working in a factory makes you a blue collar reject. In Mexico it is a different story. Volkswagens sell very well in Mexico and South America and the people who build them are proud.

You can blame it on socialogical phenomena all you want, but all you are doing is reinforcing racial stereotypes.

If you want to believe Mexicans have a poor work ethic therefore VW = crap then go ahead and believe it. I cannot stop you, but don't insult our intelligence by blaming your bigotry on "sociological fact".

Sure, there are differences in culture. I agree. Do you want to show me where in the Sociological textbook it says Mexicans have no work ethic?


To the last schmuck who posted in all caps.

The WRX is cool because it is fast, but you all know it is not put together like a European car. The flimsy doors, spray can paint job and extremely tacky styling that will look dated in 4 years show through. It is a fast car with all wheel drive though and that kicks ass. I would love to have one, but I would take a slower GTI volkswagen over a WRX because I am more interested in something that is tastefully designed. European cars are like works of art. Most Japanese stuff is either poor imitation of European designs or it is just F-ing hideous and tacky looking.

You guys know this is true and that is why you can't stop talking about Audi kills in your WRX. Who cares?

I've DRIVEN a WRX on a test drive here in Tysons Corner. It was scary fast, I will admit (though it had the worst turbo lag I have ever seen) It had great handling and a nice steering wheel. However the corners that were cut to build the car at that price could not be more obvious. It's all about priorities. f max speed for your buck is your desire the WRX or a Camaro can fit the bill for sure, but you make other sacrfices.

Say what you will about VW reliablity, but in 10 years, when the last of the WRX's are rattling down the road with blown turbos, peeling paint, sun faded fake carbon fiber trim and holes all through the upolstery, my Jetta will still have that nice solid "thud" when I shut the door, the paint will still look good and the interior will be in good shape.

It's all about priorities. To each his or her own. We have differerent priorities.

So...the german at the porshe plant is a reject? Seems to me like they want the car to be the best when it goes out the door.
As opposed to the mexican who is building a car doesnt give a rats ass as long as he gets paid. Here where I live its 30% mexicans, 20% black, and 50% white. By the way I am not rascist. I just wish people would learn ENGLISH when they come to another country to live and work.

Basically if you care about your job and what you are doing it is going to show.

OH and I personally think that VW's look like PIECES OF ****...especially since they lack styling. I prefer my '89 325i to the looks of any VW...sorry :rolleyes:. Besides I get sooooooooo many looks in my 2.5RS I have lost track, Oh and I would rather own a civic si opposed to the jetta.

My moms 2000 beetle has had the lights worked on b/c she had no way to turn them on...the wires either shorted or blew a fuse...and we couldnt find the stupid fuse box either.

My RS has had no problems, unless you count me breaking bolts then that is my own dumb fault, not the car.

-justin

EDIT:

And if you are wondering why we are acting this way getting offended that you down talk subarus, dont forget what website that youre on ;).

Agreed, Everyone raise your hand if you have gone into a fast food restaraunt and could not for the life of you communicate that you want a bean burrito with the person at the register. English is still our national language, if you wan't to work here speak it, if I go to a restaruant, car dealer, etc, and the person that is there to help me can't communicate, I simply walk out and don't do business with them. Its ridiculous, When I bought my ITR I came to the dealer to put a deposit down, the sales lady came out and couldn't answer any of my questions because she couldn't speak english for her life, I smiled at her turned and got in my car and left.

Look, no one is saying anything about Mexican-Americans. But Mexico is a third world country. They do not have generations of automakers like either of the first world countries we are talking about.

Their workers will be lucky to have high school diplomas, unlike in Japan or Europe where you will go to a vocational school if you don't go to college. They aren't going to have the same training or experience. Some won't care about how good a job they do so long as they don't get in trouble. Some might even be resentful of the yuppies these VWs are going be sold to--when no one in their family could ever buy one. The German foremen may have difficulty communicating with their own workers. There are lots of factors here.

I'm not being a psychologist here--but all the common sense factors are going to say your VW made in Mexico is not going to be reliable as an identical one made in Germany. They pay Mexican autoworkers a fraction of minimum wage in the U.S., and you expect it to be higher quality than a U.S. car just because you paid $21,000 for it?

The workers in Mexico actually make a higher equivalent pay range than the German workers, who are actually mostly eastern European since Germans can get better jobs than pushing buttons in a factory with the economy as strong as it is there. I get this information straight from a German VW engineer who posts on www.tdiclub.com and has proven who he is to the site admininstrator.

Assuming that the Mexican workers did not have high school diplomas (most of them do and all have the same 2 years or more of VW training that German workers get) what does a high school education have to do with operating a robot to assemble a car?

Do you need to have read George Orwell's 1984 to properly position the weatherstripping in a car window the way you were trained to do? No, I don't think so.

He also says there is no significant quality difference between the plants worldwide. VW works very hard to make sure of this, much the way I am sure Subaru does with the Legacy.

No offense intended with those slams about the Subaru quality. Mr. ALL CAPS got me a little angry.

I am a little disappointed. I though some of you would be able to counter my argument a little more successfully but I all I get is more of the same psuedo-intellectual racist dribble.

That's just as well. I've grown bored of playing with you guys. You can all go back to the Apppearance forums now and learn how to shine up your big exhaust tips and apply more stickers and fake carbon fiber trim to your un-Impreza's.

:lol:

I frankly dont give a damn that you dont like my car...an IMPREZA mind you. Look where you are...



*hunkers down as others leap over to flame you*<--I HOPE.

-justin *going to polish my apexi N1 and fluff my ver5 seats*

turbodieselboy, since you know some manager in Mexico, find out how much an assembly worker makes a year. How long would take for them to buy a Jetta that they build? And yeah, when the average worker takes home $4000, your Mexican VW autoworker is going to "relatively" richer than your German where the average worker is taking home $40,000--but that doesn't mean he's better paid.


Next test: Count the fit and finish and mechanical problems in your Jetta after two years. Compare with a neighbor Passat owner.

Originally posted by vik
.

Exterior:
Subaru looks better hands down (own a 2001 2.5 RS). Paint quality on Subaru is just embarrasing. Subaru please paint under the hood.



Hope all this makes sense.

You are so right about the paint issue.
Have any of you seen the gauges in the jetta?
I love them Blue lighting and red every where else.Its BadA55!
I want to do it to my subie.;)

True...


I am considering a new paint job within 5 yrs, maybe...It gives me an excuse to paint my car steel blue mica :).

Yea the lighting is cool, thats it IMO.

-justin

Hey all you KNUCKLEHEADS out there that keep saying the Legacy is made in Tennessee. IT IS MADE IN INDIANA. (I used caps to make believe I was shouting).
I will not buy a VW made in Mexico, I will not buy a Focus made in Mexico either, both cars seem to suffer from poor construction and attention to details. If Americans could buy Jettas or Golfs made in Deutschland I would really consider it my next car, but we cant. So I will look someplace else.
I am not racist, my family is from Germany and my wife is hispanic. So what does all this mean? I couldn't tell you.
Cheers and chill out.
TIm

Tim,
I wouldn't buy a Focus regardless of the point of assembly....it's still a Ford! I sold Fords and then Acuras for a period of time in my younger days and the difference in satisfaction there is amazing. Now, I have some interesting FACTS to point out from my days adventures....
I went to my local Subaru dealership today (service manager is a friend, and his father owns the place...helpful!) where they also sell Saab and Porsche to get my Legacy OB's failing alternator replaced under a recall I heard about roughly 6 months ago. While I was there, I got to browse around the shop and see what was in for service....
Porsche Boxster....very new....top does not work correctly...nice!

Saab convertible...very new....same problem...also nice!

These were just todays cars....every time I stop by, there is someone who has brought their very new Porsche or Saab in for some sort of "initial quality" issue. These cars are not cheap...they are also assembled in their home countries...so what is the problem? My personal opinion on Porsche is that they are very focused on performance....and have little concern for the longevity of the vehicles interiors...ever look at a used porsche? Even if the car was new, the interior just feels and looks cheap. Now Saab...that is a very strange automobile...and now our partial parent company GM owns all of them! I can only imagine the future of Saab-ism being filled with issues.
English vehicles....now there is a very interesting blend of pride and quality! Before anyone flips out....my wife is a Brit, and so is my mother, but let's face facts here....British cars have to be some of the most poorly assembled vehicles I have ever seen, yet the "craftsmen & coachworkers" are extremely proud of their work...and they are very expensive. Case in point - my mother in-law's '00 Range Rover (made during BMW ownership) is a huge disappointment! $65,000 = 3 A/C units (we live in Cleveland, for Pete's sake) 1 power steering unit, 1 alternator, 1 seat motor, 1 window switch....etc, etc. Anyway, I just think that it's like I said in my earlier post...you can find problems everywhere. Some companies just don't cover them up as well as other. Anyone own one of the first Hyundia cars in the 80's? What about a Kia? Daewoo?

What was the name of the movie that was based on an ad exec who lost it and started telling the truth in all his ads? "Volvo...we're boxy, but good!"

Quality......it's somewhere on the job list....after cleaning the urinal and ordering takeout for lunch.

Regarding the comment above about Porsche interiors, I don't have that impression at all. While they may be considered plain, they are not cheaply made. I bought a '79 911 SC a few years ago and the entire car, including the interior, was in excellent condition. Porsche places a priority not only on performance but also longevity. It is common to see 200K and 300K mile Porsches that still run perfectly.

As a side issue, this link may be of interest to some.

www.jdpa.com/studies/pressrelease.asp?StudyID=486&CatID=1

Originally posted by turbodieselboy


I think you will find that the Legacy has equal quality and reliabilty to the Impreza. They are both made from the same parts.



To a certain extent, I agree, but the reason for that is not the parts. It's because the Japanese manufacturers have excellent process engineers. Why do you think the German car manufacturers have been hiring them all away??!! :rolleyes:

Well, Jettaboy is gone. But his messed up thinking remains. I'm Chinese and I think pretty highly of the Chinese work ethic, but that doesn't mean I'd buy a car made in China, even if it had the Subaru label on it. And it's not because I'm racist against Chinese or because I'm making a political statement, but because YOU CAN COUNT ON SOMETHING FROM THAT COUNTRY BEING LOW QUALITY.
If you can't understand something simple like that, that is just messed up.

wow, to the guy that own a jetta. My friend has a new 01 jetta, and I have to agree that it has almost the interior of BMW and a pretty good quality ride, but before I got my wrx, I had a choice of Jetta 1.8T, RSX (acura), and WRX - thus I picked wrx for its reliability. My friend's jetta is too frequent visiting the shop, so I dont think I would like to do that as I have in my previous mustang :(
Also about japanese not being able to design well you definitely have to check the RSX, it really has nice interior.

peace

umm... guys. There is no official language in the US. Technically, you can speak whatever you want. I don't mind all the spanish, I can understand enough to get by, and I think there are about 50 hispanics in my area, lol. It irritates me when someone speaks their native tounge with no regards to other people (i.e. LOUDLY). It makes me want to fly down to mexico, walk into a store, and YELL to who ever's with me about a can of soda or something.

BTW, I think I'm gonna go polish my N1, and fluff my leather seats.

My friend has a 2000 Jetta with the following problems: glove box has broken three times, both ashtrays have broken numerous times, both headlights stopped working, constant check engine light, driver side window decided going up was a bad idea(was raining the day it happened too), rear speakers blew, auto transmission slips, cd changer broke.... there is more, but I can't remember at the time. In my opinion the Jetta is chubby and bloated, handles poorly, and only appears to be strong. Build quality is down on VW's, at least those owned by my friends. The golf is the only decent looking VW and the front end, especially the headlights just kill it. As far as looks, I think the Legacy and most GC8 Imprezas look much better than any VW that has ever been made. Have you seen a 97 Jetta, it was only a few years ago and the car looks like damn shoe box, now that's cutting edge. Maybe you'll cut your self on the corners.:rolleyes:

Seriously tdi guy I dont know where you got your info concerning longevity of subarus vs volks but youre way of base. Ive owned both and I gotta tell ya a VW is crapola compared to a subaru. Everything breaks on the water-cooled vws. I had a scirocco and I liked the looks but its was constantly in the shop. Friends GTi the same, anothers cabriolet dont even ask. They are not very well made. Sorry chief you might want to check Consumer reports or something, your info is wrong.

i think before they had the wolfsburg, lots of people modified jettas, if you wanted the luxury and performance, why didn't you get a jetta and just add a chip??? sheesh, why complain about how a jetta can smoke an RS when you said you don't even race. also if you want you can spend a little green here and there and your impreza will sound and perform better than a jetta. Plus as i always say, "hey you big shot lets go race in the snow and see who wins."

Wow....

Lemme see. I own a 2000 RS and a 2000 Turbo Vapor Beetle (1.8, 150hp).

Both cars are cool. Both have their pluses and minuses. Both go about the same speed. Who knows which is really faster.

My wife loves her Beetle. She says it looks cool

I love my RS. I say it looks cool.

The Beetle is super reliable. So is the Impreza.

Who cares which one is faster?

Sure there are faster cars out there, but I always let them pass me so they go through the speed trap first. If not for those faster cars, I'd get more tickets. :D