Ask yourself this question, and it will tell you whether or not you want to buy a car with a bunch of demo miles on it.

You just bought a brand new WRX with 6 miles on the odometer, and brought it home. The teenager from next store asks you if he could go take it out for a spin and show it to some friends. He goes on to tell you that he has been wanting to see what one of these bad boys can do. He says that he has heard that the power is kicka$$ at 6,000 plus RPM and even when you hit the rev limiter at 7,000 RPM or so, this car is still rocketing. He says he wants to see if what he has heard is true.

So the question is this. Do you give the kid the keys to go drive your brand new WRX, knowing full well he will be shifting at 7,000+ RPM, and trying to see if he revs it up enough and dumps the clutch on take off whether he can break the tires free and squeal them, without the transmission exploding. He said that is one of things he wondered about AWD cars.

If you answered yes, and you would let the kid take your new, non-broken-in WRX for a 7,000k shifting, joy ride, then buy a demo car with 25, 50 or 100 miles on it, because that is almost certainly what has happened to the demo car.

If on the other hand you wouldn't give the keys to the kid next door and let him take your brand new car for joy ride, then why would you want to buy a car where someone else let the kid take the joy ride.

It is possible that Subaru puts the whole break-in thing in for absolutely no reason. I don't think so, but it is possible. So what about the curbs and pot holes that the demo drivers blast over. Ever wonder why some new cars have alignment problems? Well one of the reasons is because demo drivers, especially when learning stick in the demo cars, don't always miss obstacles. It's your 25k, each one of you can make your own decission, but to say that they are not hard miles is a joke.

Hey, just my opinion, I could be wrong.

While I personally would not want demo miles on my cars, when I pay the price for a new car, I have done many demo drives and I have always observed the break in driving limitations. It only seemed fair. And I assume that most demo drives are done with dealer sales folks who keep the demo drives reasonable.

And all but 3 of the cars I have owned were used cars, and yet none of them ever had any problems I would attribute to misuse by prior drivers. Now I do know of cars that have been abused, but it's been pretty easy to tell that these cars were not properly treated. Of the 20 or more cars I've owned, I just can't think of any problems that could have been caused by improper break in.

I think most people take better care of new cars than you assume. At least I hope so.:rolleyes:

haha, thats funny. the car dealership where i bought mine pride themselves on the fact that they dont allow test drives with the wrx. (although ive heard that if theyre absolutely positively sure youre gonna but it, then theyll allow one) for the most part, they dont allow test drives. ive even talked to total strangers who were asking me questions and the car and the dealership. saying that they went to the dealership (assael, in so. cali) and were denied a test drive. when i got in the car it had less than 15 miles on the odometer --infact, i bought my wrx without ever even test driving one! the kicker was that i had dealers and a financing guy telling me how fast the car was, and how it stuck like glue while doing 60 on a freeway on-ramp! what the hell?! ...well, better than a teenager i guess...

I had Assael deny me a test drive (I'm pushing 40 and look totally respectable). I called Valley and they said no problem. While I am sensitive to people wanting one "off the truck" (if I get one, that's what I'll specify), smart dealerships will have one car as a "demo" vehicle. Most people won't buy a car that they can't try (except maybe a Porsche). You can bet that Assael won't get my business.

btw...at 15 miles your car had some test drives. A car after delivery and PDI will probably have between 3-6 miles. Probably won't matter, but anything over 10 indicates "test" drives...

Bugs me when someone assumes all test drive miles are over 6000 rpm, tire-squeeling, sideways on the on-ramp, drives. I drove about 5 miles in the only demo car they would use - an automatic wagon. When my 5-speed arrived, I (and no one else) was allowed to test drive it, then purchased it.

I also am probably in the minority because I don't beat the crap out of rental cars. A mild beating, perhaps, but not a brawl!:D

Most people won't buy a car that they can't try (except maybe a Porsche)
Heck, I bought one and never even seen one in person let alone drive one! (I'm not "most" people I guess!) ;)
There were so many positive reviews of the car from here and abroad that a test drive wasn't even necessary. It had 6 miles on the odometer when I drove it to the gas station to allow the salesman to fill the tank w/Sunoco Ultra! Now a Porsche, I'd have to test drive.

I would never lend my car to anyone, unless it's my best friend in case of emergency.

Originally posted by SubEd
Bugs me when someone assumes all test drive miles are over 6000 rpm, tire-squeeling, sideways on the on-ramp, drives.

I don't assume all are, but you would have to be foolish to think that every test driver stays below 4k. First of all, when I test drove mine, I had never even heard of the 4k thing, and the dealer hand me the keys and told me to have fun. Second, we have seen a bunch of stories here about test drives with or without the dealer, that didn't even come close to observing the 4k rule. Third, lets use commong sense. Most test drivers have never heard of this forum and the dealer hasn't told them about the 4k rule. You are thinking about buying a car that is being touted as a Porsche stuffed into a Geo body. You aren't going to see if the engine has any ummph?

What bugs me is when people make statements, without an ounce of science or research to back it up, telling people that it doesn't matter if the car has 6 miles or 60 miles on it, and that demo miles won't hurt it. Each person has to make their own choices, but unless you totally discount the break in period, and it sure sounds to me like most people here have observed it, people shouldn't be telling those that ask that it doesn't matter if the car they are thinking about buying has had 80 or 100 demo miles on it. It is fine if some of us didn't have control over our need for impulse buying and instant gratification, and therefore decided to take what was on the lot, but we shouldn't than justify that move with unsupported information to others. If you look at the facts as we know it, Subaru says keep it under 4k RPMs for 1000 miles, and most test drives will exceed 4k RPMs, then it is clear that most demo miles are bad for your WRX.

So, anyway, that's what bugs me, so I thought I would write a couple long posts about it.

Tned

you would have to be foolish to think that every test driver stays below 4k

Of course. Just wanted to point out the exceptions!

To each their own, but I wouldn't buy a "new" WRX with a bunch of test-drive miles.

Originally posted by SubEd
Of course. Just wanted to point out the exceptions!

To each their own, but I wouldn't buy a "new" WRX with a bunch of test-drive miles.

Neither would I, but everytime someone gets on this board and asks the question, "I am looking at a WRX, but it has 100 miles on it, I am not sure if I should buy it." The vast majority of the answers are, "I bought mine with 150 miles on it, theres nothing wrong with that, buy it."

So I decided to say it loud and clear, you can't have it both ways. You can't say that you should properly break in an engine, and most here agree you should, and also say that it is ok to get a car with a bunch of demo miles on it.

By the way, even though I didn't know about the 4k thing when I test drove it, I only got it over 4k once or twice. I wanted to check out the acceleration, so I pulled off the road and back on, and when I pulled on, I did it from a stand still so I could see what kind of acceleration it has. Although I will be honest, the real limiting factor was that the road that I was test driving it on had 45 mph speed limit in an suburban area well patrolled by police. There is no doubt that I was going to test acceleration, because I live in a hilly area with only short passing stretches, and I was going to make sure that the acceleration was adequate to pass quickly.

I think Tned is right on the money.
Sure, some people may test drive a demo car like an old lady on her way to church but I don't think most people do.
For example, I test drove an Audi S4 about a year ago and the salesman was not with me. He threw me the keys and said, "have fun". Of course I pushed the car extremely hard because I wanted to feel what it could do firsthand. If I'm going to spend my money on a performance car, I want to know what it can do. Dealers know this. In fact I know that some salesmen themselves drive the cars this way.
A demo Camry with 100 miles on it may have been driven within the break-in guidelines but not a demo WRX.

I agree with ted. I'm big into sport motorcycles. I've been on many forums and read a lot of technical info. Sportbikes are cutting edge when it comes to HP and weight. I have read a lot on the break in procedures. It is very important when they rev to 15,000 plus. While it may not break a motor or shorten the life of it (for an long as you own it) it can hurt HP. Most bike inthusiasts dyno their bikes all the time. I have seen charts with hp figures gaining as the bike breaks in.
I totally agree with proper break in procedures. And not running synthetic until it's well broken in too. But that's another story.....

Test driving a car is a prime opportunity to beat on a car...plain and simple.
I test drove 2 WRX's before buying mine...at one dealer the guy asked me to go easy and I did. At the other....HAHAH

He told me I was drivin like a ***** so it was ON! Had to get the car way sideways before he stopped givin me crap hehe. Anyways...apparently everyone who had test driven the car had beat on it to test its performance. I'm not saying every dealer allows this, but how the hell would you know? The dealer I got it from is very professional, and much nicer than the other dealers I visited. There is no way in hell I would have bought a demo. Dealers will tell you: test drives are a perfect break-in for a new car because the speed is constantly being varied and the engine gets to warm up first while you get set and explain everything...blah blah blah. IT"S BS PPL!!!

Whether that kind of abuse really has a long-lasting effect or not I have no clue and I'm not saying your car will be messed up if it was a demo. All I'm saying is there is a good chance that a demo has been beat on...if not by customers...then by employees at the dealership...believe me they pretty much all do it.

-Mike

Well.. at least you can rest assured knowing that the *worst* test driver didn't drive your car. The worst ones are the *oh this thing has awd... let's see what it can do!" and then 5 minutes later.. you're looking at a brand new Rex.. getting personal with a telephone pole.

That's what happened at one of the local dealerships. And a few others as I'm sure you've heard :(

Originally posted by lenyx
Well.. at least you can rest assured knowing that the *worst* test driver didn't drive your car. The worst ones are the *oh this thing has awd... let's see what it can do!" and then 5 minutes later.. you're looking at a brand new Rex.. getting personal with a telephone pole.

That's what happened at one of the local dealerships. And a few others as I'm sure you've heard :(

That's pretty surpising since I was beginning to get the impression that I had it all wrong and NO ONE drives demo cars hard. :rolleyes:

Hi,

I'm big in to sportbikes as well (in fact mine redlines at 15,500 but the rev limiter doesn't kick in until 16000) and I would have no problem buying a demo car, if they offered a discount.

Break in is pretty much bull****. The only reason that they want you to keep it under 4K for the first 1K miles is for initial quality issues.

Ask most engine tuners. The only reason that break in truly exists is so the piston ring seals seat properly (there are other minor things, but that's the biggy). Piston ring seals seat properly by varying engine load and heat cycling. If they don't seat properly than your engine might not make optimal power. If there was a mistake in assembly then they will fail. You are not going to blow your engine buy continually redlining it from the showroom.

Most engine tuners say real break in is the first 150 to 250 miles and they recommend beating on the engine in varying RPM zones. The first hundred miles from 2k to 4.5k, the second hundred miles form 3.5k to 5.5k, etc. Just as long as you are varying the load applied to it, and and letting it cool completely down between drives (which test drives normally do). Then it should break-in properly. Engine tuners also say a car driven to carefully (or slowly) during break in will always be slow, because the ring seals won't seat properly and allow the cylinders to 'leak'.

Now, the "keep it under 4k for 1k miles" IMO, is because if there was an assembly error, than you won't find it until after a couple thousand miles. Initial quality won't be an issue and you probably won't be able to demand a new car. However, if a ring seal fails within the first couple hundred miles than you could find other things to invoke the lemon law.

FYI I first made it a point to redline my car at just over 200 miles. And no, the above is not a rationalization as my car was delivered with 9 miles on it.

So if you bought a demo, or are looking at one, don't worry about it. If something does break (just as unlikely as a 'fresh' car) then you have a warrenty.

Originally posted by geremy
Most engine tuners say real break in is the first 150 to 250 miles and they recommend beating on the engine in varying RPM zones. The first hundred miles from 2k to 4.5k, the second hundred miles form 3.5k to 5.5k, etc. Just as long as you are varying the load applied to it, and and letting it cool completely down between drives (which test drives normally do). ...

... FYI I first made it a point to redline my car at just over 200 miles. And no, the above is not a rationalization as my car was delivered with 9 miles on it.


Ok, I have a question for you. It seems to me that what you described engine tuners recomend and what you did, are a real good reason not to get a demo car. If engine tuners say you should work the engine between 2 and 4.5k for the first 100 miles, why would you want a car that has probably seen a bunch of action between 3-7k in the first 50-100 miles? That's what happens to demo cars.

If that type (demo) of driving is ok, why didn't you redline your car at the 10 mile mark, which is likely what would have appened if it was a demo car?

I have to agree what everyone said on buying a "new" car that already has 100-200 miles on it already. Especially when people beat on it during demos. Most of the 200 miles will be HARD miles, not your usual one or two red line shifts every week or so. It will probably be red lined every couple of miles. It is ok if they sell the car at a discount (because you are not really buying a brand new car at this point.) Especially when you are buying a performance car, and power doesn't come until 3000 rpm. Dealers know this, and will want you to push a car to make a sale.

No, engine builders do not give specific RPM points. They don't really recommend redlining it off the lot, but I what I'm saying is this really shouldn't damage the car any or prevent proper break in.

In fact, those people that test drive the car may be doing you a favor. You may just not have the heart to break it in properly.

I think Subaru should have a dealer in the car with the test driver like a lot of other dealerships do. First time I drove a WRX, the dealer said, "take it around the block, the keys are in the visor". I didn't know about the breakin period and didn't follow it at all. But it sold me on the car. (Test drove a BMW 330, w/the dealer in the car.... wasn't nearly as fun... bought the WRX instead:) ... and much happier with the extra $$$$$ in my pocket.)

Comes back around though. I came back the next week and asked to place an order for a WRX, and they said they could no longer order them because they had all been allocated. I got this same response from the owner of the dealership. This must've been before they decided to bring over another 5,000 of them. Anyway, now that I couldn't order one, I searched all the local dealerships, and found the black sedan that I wanted and jumped on it, figuring I better get it before they were gone. At that point the 150:mad: miles on the car didn't click in my head. But after reading all of these posts I'll now think twice before taking a car with anything over a couple miles on it.

I got to test drive one, no problem. In fact, I had no intention of buying when I took the test drive.

I wasn't an idot with the car, no clutch dumping, no hard stops, no corners at stupid speeds, but I did run it up over 6 grand, with the salesperson in the car.

I then ordered one, because I "didn't like the color" of the one I drove. My delivery had 8 miles on the odometer when I picked it up.

I felt bad about the test car buyer until I found out who it was, at 16 year old kid. The car won't last long enough for any problems caused by hard initial driving. I think the tree or guardrails will do plenty more damage than I did.

The effects of hard break-in periods differ depending on who you talk to. These engines are all spun at the factory to break the cams in. They have a good warranty. If it starts burning oil, it goes back. On the subject of the motorbike guys watching their numbers go up as the engine wore, it's true. Just like a pair of jeans, a well-constructed and properly cared for engine will increase its output as it wears and things settle in. Case in point, a few years ago, one of the car magzines got a hold of a new Viper. They flogged it. They did a top-end run, made it to 195-196 mph. The car then went on to the next magazine, where it was flogged again, and again, and again. The car was flogged from mile 0.
Fast forward a year, the same magazine got the same car back. They flogged it again. BAM! Top speed: 203 mph. The car had 30,000 hard miles on it. 1-2 mph can be accomodated for by weather, etc. an increase of 8 at that speed indicates a signifigant increase in power. All from wear, and that engine was beat to heck it's whole life (up to that point).

The dealer here also gives price breaks on WRX's with some miles on them. Once the cars passed 100 miles, you could haggle the price. So, IMHO, buy that demo car, save some money. If it's not right, they'll fix it. Your warranty starts at the mileage when you sign the papers, not 0. Go for it.

I picked up my WRX with 8 miles on it. 'Nuff said there. As for break-in importance... a bunch of people over on Honda-Tech did a poll and came up with some interesting results. As we all know, some cars of a single model line might be quicker than others. When Prelude owners were polled, one clear pattern emerged: All of the cars on the low side of average quarter-mile times had been broken in properly, and the fastest ones belonged to the owners who were meticulous about this procedure. The slowest cars belonged to owners who ragged on them from minute they got the car. It seemed to be a pretty apparent correlation between the two, so... I'm going to stick to my break-in procedure.

When I test drive a car, I tend to be a little harsher on it than I might be during normal driving - because if I'm gonna spend a lot of money on a car, I want to know what it can do. When I test drove my Civic, I had the salesman with me - I asked him if I could try it out, and when he said yes, I decided to find out just how well it accelerated, and since there was a nice back road by the dealer, that pretty much was just used for test drives, I also decided to see how well it panic-stopped.

Then I bought it. ;-) It was just a few quick blips outside of spec, really, to see how well it performed - most of the driving was pretty boring, really.

I'd buy a car with $100, $150 or even $200 miles on it, sure. I'd be working the dealer to give me a discount and through the extended warranty in for free, though. I mean, it may not kill the car, but hey - it's a bargaining point. ;-)

im 18. and when i test drove an wrx today, i rode it as hard as i've ever driven. clutch dumping, panic stops, the whole nine yards.. but of course this was all in the interest of knowing wat the car can handle. then i preordered a silver base wrx that is supposed to be "off the truck" next week :D

and if u think ppl have been nice to that demo car your eyeing.. keep this in mind:

most wrx customers are ppl that know a lot about cars.. and performance. i mean, the wrx doesnt have the looks nor the word of mouth to be considered an everyday commuter car. so ppl who buy (or test drive) the wrx knows about the turbo and awd. and when ur sitting in a turbo charged car, and u know theres 227 ponies at ur disposal, ur GONNA use it.

u dont see old ladies test driving a sports car.

Originally posted by ascott

The effects of hard break-in periods differ depending on who you talk to. These engines are all spun at the factory to break the cams in. They have a good warranty. If it starts burning oil, it goes back.
Good luck. Try getting an engine rebuild under warranty just because the engine burns more oil than you think it should. Usually the manufacturer will say that it is within the acceptable limits of oil consumption. I've seen this happen with a friend and heard of it happening countless times. "Sorry sir, using a quart of oil in 1500 miles is well within the design parameters of this engine; it's not a problem".

As to cars running better after 30,000 miles on them than when new; that's the norm. Of course an engine will run better after it has "loosened up". I've read many long term test reports in various magazines and the cars almost always are faster after a year and 30K to 40K miles. Most of the magazines do adhere to some break in procedure. Usually the car is not flogged until it has accumulated some miles. Most long term test reports I've read specifically mention that.

Break in is pretty much bull****. The only reason that they want you to keep it under 4K for the first 1K miles is for initial quality issues.
Disagree. I feel that break in is important.

Ask most engine tuners. The only reason that break in truly exists is so the piston ring seals seat properly (there are other minor things, but that's the biggy). Piston ring seals seat properly by varying engine load and heat cycling. If they don't seat properly than your engine might not make optimal power.
Agree. varying rpm and load is a must. No interstate 65mph to the next state and back just to rack up miles. :)

Most engine tuners say real break in is the first 150 to 250 miles and they recommend beating on the engine in varying RPM zones. The first hundred miles from 2k to 4.5k, the second hundred miles form 3.5k to 5.5k, etc. Just as long as you are varying the load applied to it, and and letting it cool completely down between drives
I agree with the cool down procedure. I would at least double your mile figure though. Take your time you'll have it for a while.

The whole under 4k thing is the factory making it real simple for people to understand. After all there are real simple people out there. :confused: Huh? what does that mean?

not your usual one or two red line shifts every week or so

:lol: more like several times daily for me.

Originally posted by harrydog
Good luck. Try getting an engine rebuild under warranty just because the engine burns more oil than you think it should. Usually the manufacturer will say that it is within the acceptable limits of oil consumption. I've seen this happen with a friend and heard of it happening countless times. "Sorry sir, using a quart of oil in 1500 miles is well within the design parameters of this engine; it's not a problem".

When I checked on my Ford Ranger that was burning oil, I was told Ford considers any oil usage up to 1 quart every 800 miles normal. This was from a service manager I have known for years and trust. Unless your burning a ton of oil, there is no way they are going to replace your engine.

--SNIP!--
When I checked on my Ford Ranger that was burning oil, I was told Ford considers any oil usage up to 1 quart every 800 miles normal. This was from a service manager I have known for years and trust. Unless your burning a ton of oil, there is no way they are going to replace your engine.
--SNIP!--

I think that if you walked into that dealership with a lawyer and a friend who has a similar vehicle that doesn't burn oil, you'll get your rebuild/rering/new engine. Burning ANY oil is not acceptable in a new car anymore. The dealer and the mechanics and the manufacturer can say all they want about "acceptable" oil consumption. When it gets down to the nitty-gritty, they will have to fix the problem.
Besides, if a new car was burning that much oil, it wouldn't pass emissions tests in most areas. If a car that is less than 5 years old cannot pass emissions tests, then the manufacturer has to fix it anyway.

Originally posted by ascott

I think that if you walked into that dealership with a lawyer and a friend who has a similar vehicle that doesn't burn oil, you'll get your rebuild/rering/new engine. Burning ANY oil is not acceptable in a new car anymore. The dealer and the mechanics and the manufacturer can say all they want about "acceptable" oil consumption. When it gets down to the nitty-gritty, they will have to fix the problem.
Besides, if a new car was burning that much oil, it wouldn't pass emissions tests in most areas. If a car that is less than 5 years old cannot pass emissions tests, then the manufacturer has to fix it anyway.
I'm not so sure you would get the rebuild under those conditions. If the manufacturer says that variations in tolerances and assembly allows for a certain range of oil consumption and your engine falls within that range, you're screwed. But even if you did end up getting the rebuild, you would still have the hassle and expense of hiring a lawyer. Wouldn't it make more sense to break the engine in properly to begin with?

I think just as damaging as high revving a new motor on a test drive is the fact that in all likelihood the high revving is done before the oil sufficiently warms up. Regardless of your philosophy about break-in, I doubt very seriously that anyone who owns a WRX would crank one up and immediately begin driving hard. Unfortunately, that's what I expect most test drivers to do. I would not want to own such a car...

I agree with Oldnslow. Most people would lay into a demo car as soon as they got out of the parking lot.

The car that I drove was given to me for an hour by the dealership. It was a wagon with 165 miles on it. I fully intended to find out if this was a car that I wanted to own, and wound it out a couple of times to be sure. That is what demo cars are for, right? :confused:

If I hadn't been allowed to fully sample the car I wouldn't have bought one. My Ford Contour has more low end grunt than the REX, and I would never have know the difference below 4000 RPM. That said, one I made up my mind that I was buying a REX I immediately jumped to the ordering process.

Having sold used cars for a couple of years in college, I can tell you that individual cars can run quite differently, depending on how they have been treated. This is true beyond the first 1000 miles, but I am certain that adhering to the break-in procedures from mile one can only help.

When my new wagon gets here in a few weeks, I'll feel better knowing that the first 165 miles were driven how I would want them driven.

Geoff

I've just gotta tell somebody. I've driven outbacks before purchasing my WRX and they were broken in "by the book". When I test drove the new ones, it was amazing how doggy they were in comparison. That experience convinced me there was no way I was going to buy another outback. Then there was this black WRX that I test drove and it was all over for me. I placed my order immediately. Today I went over 800 mi. in my silver wagon and they're all by the book. I'm convinced it's worth it.