While washing my WRX this morning, I noticed that the right-front rotor had several grooves in it. Just looking at the rotor, they look like several concentric rings that are anywhere fom 1/6" to 1/8" wide and 1/4" or more apart. I thought it was just a surface thing, but I can easily feel the depth of in the grooves in the face of the rotor. (There are a couple on the left-front rotor too, but none on the rears.) This seems to be a weird wear pattern, but the brakes aren't shuddering, squealing or doing anything strange—and I know that rotors and brake pads working together don't always result in a rotor that's smooth all the way across. However, this seems excessive; neither of the other cars in my garage have this problem, nor do any of the other WRXs I checked.

My car only has 850 miles on it, I have never gotten on the brakes hard or gotten into the ABS.

Has anyone else experienced this?

mines brand new (500 miles on it)

i noticed that the day i got it. its getting better....

i believe its just left over from the casting process/rotor surfacing machines....

it should break in with the rest of the car

I have a couple of Grooves, with one really standing out. They do not seem to affect braking performance at all.

This may seem to be an unsual idea to some of you people, but casually mentioning things like this to your Subaru technicion over at the dealer would yeild an answer to this.

The pads are grooving the rotors. They have more brass I believe than earlier Subaru pads which, while they are bedding in, leads to the grooves. When the pads are properly bedded and a little time has passed, the grooves will go away. There will still be rings in appearence, but they will not be as deep as the ones while the pads are bedding.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the WRX pads are no different from the RS pads- I don't know who started the "WRX pads are harder than the older pads" but it has been going around for quite some time.

Brian
AIM: captaindamorgan ICQ: 84483950
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IClub: Now with 20% more caffeine!

Well, thats what my service manager said.

Now if you wanna be more accurate, are you saying the GC8 pads are the same as the GDA pads? Becuase I'm under the impression the 2002 RS is not what you're talking about.

yup, my front driver rotor has this "ring" on it. i noticed it the first time i washed it.

Bob

Mine's had the grooves in the fronts since day one (five weeks and 3700 miles ago). I'll ask my service tech about it too next time I see him, but the consensus opinion (which I agree with) seems it's not harmful to brake performance or safety.

Just tell people it's a new kind of ventilated disc. :p

- Kai

This is totally normal and will be this way until you replace the rotors. Mine have been that way since the pads were broken-in and are still that way. My pads are down to about 1/8" left, so I am getting new rotors and pads. The spiral grooves are very noticeable and can get worse, especially if you use the brakes very hard, such at high speed track events.

Originally posted by Zahnster
This may seem to be an unsual idea to some of you people, but casually mentioning things like this to your Subaru technicion over at the dealer would yeild an answer to this.

It's a little difficult to get real answers when the response from the dealer is: "Geez, we've sold 15 WRXs, and not a single one has ever come back for any service." :rolleyes:

I'm trying to gather real-world experience here, so I don't have to be the guinea pig when my car goes in later this week. :eek:

I've seen rotor grooving before, but not nearly to this extent.

3300 miles and I have had Grooves on both right and left rotors. It has never affected performance though. No awnser from the dealer yet. Let us know what the say.

When picking up my car I was told by my dealer that these grooves would appear, that they are not a problem, and that they will smooth out over the course of time.

Originally posted by BradWRX
This is totally normal and will be this way until you replace the rotors. Mine have been that way since the pads were broken-in and are still that way. This is not totally normal on any car except the WRX. Anyone that knows cars looks at the rotors and comments on them.

--scott

Mine had them since day one. At @850 miles they are gray and can be felt with a fingernail. My S2000, Land Cruiser, Accord, Chevy PU,and GS1100 don't have them. Neither do the rear brakes. Whats up?

UCI_Scott,

First off, my comment is pertaining to the WRX and all the other WRXs I have seen. I thought the original poster was talking about his WRX and not other cars. So my response was based on the WRX only. Am I missing some thing here? So your post and comment does not make sense to me. Please think before you respond or comment.

Second off, I do know cars and it is perfectly normal for some cars as well to exhibit spiral grooving. My BMW M3 has always had the same spiral grooves as my WRX has.

The spiral grooves typically show up on performance cars that are driven hard. Performance orientated cars typically have more aggressive pad compounds and calipers that provide very high clamping forces (i.e. big brakes). When they are driven hard and temperatures are very high the pad material wears the noticeable spiral grooves. They should not be real deep for a street driven car. But if aggressive track pads are used at a high-speed track event the depth of the grooves can be deeper. Many if not all cars that I see at drivers educational events show the same wear pattern to varying degrees. You will notice that many pad compounds are not exactly homogeneous and that contributes to the less than perfect even wear.

The less aggressive compound pad and less aggressive driving will manifest itself to less indications of grooves and more of a flat even finish.

OBTW, the rears may have the same pad compound but they are not stressed and abused like the front pads. The fronts provide the majority of the stopping effort. I have seen on the rears spiral grooves on some cars used at the track, but then again very aggressive track pads cause that.

So there you have it, depends on pad compound, the clamping force of the caliper and the way the care it driven. So please refrain from making general no-it-all type comments. Thank you.

My mistake.

I was unaware that the subject had been changed from concentric grooves to spiral grooves. The original post had to do with the concentric grooves that are worn into almost every WRX front rotor I've seen.

--scott

No it is the same subject, but I used the general broad term "spiral grooves" Spiral grooves manifest themselves differently but always are indicated by concentric rings. The spacing of these rings or grooves can very in width, distance apart and depth as indicated by Spa2k. So think of a record with concentric spiral grooves cut into the surface. The record is totally uniform in spacing and depth, unlike the random appearance that shows up on brake rotors. Kinda weird disscussions I admit.

BradWRX: niether my 97 M3 nor my 99 M3 had/have, any grooves up front..and neither did any of the LA Chapter BMW CCA M3's

not with Tarex, Jurid, Axiss MM, or Pagid pads

so I'm not sure what you're talking about

My '00 S4, didn't have them either

BUt MY WRX did and it NEVER went away, and I had been nice and aggressive, alternately to those brakes

and saw no change in 4K miles..if they aren't bedded by then.....


now that I have Stoptech front brakes, with agressive pads bedded in...I notice no grooves on those rotors


I'm not certain what's going on with these grooves, but they are very typical for WRX's...but that doesn't mean that it is normal or ok

My car had only 9 miles on it at the dealership and the rings were on the front discs when I picked the car up. I didn't think anything of it until I read these posts. Are you all sure the rings weren't on the discs when the discs are made and are supposed to be that way?

I got the rings too. :(

4500 miles on it.

my front driver rotor has this "ring" on it. the very first time I noticed it is around 1000KM , now , my wrx is about 4000km.

No it is the same subject, but I used the general broad term "spiral grooves" Spiral grooves manifest themselves differently but always are indicated by concentric rings.

Hmmm.


spi·ral (sprl)
n.

A curve on a plane that winds around a fixed center point at a continuously increasing or decreasing distance from the point.

and

concentric \Con*cen"tric\, Concentrical \Con*cen"tric*al\, a. [F. concentrique. See Concenter.] Having a common center, as circles of different size, one within another.

I think you might want to tone your message down a little, Brad. I was also confused by your post.

Dave.

Mine has 5,500 on it and it's had the same grooves you describe since I picked it up, although they have gotten less noticeable over time.

I think something got into the manufacturing process on the pad which then scored the rotors on the testing procedure in Japan.

We could all get rid of this by switching to the 4 pot caliper bigger disk setup? Or just wait a few thousand more miles. Anyone know where to get the bigger Euro market brakes?

I was just thinking of posting on this subject, because I think I've found the cause.

I inspected my rotors and found small bumpy imperfections on the rotor surface, consistent with the ring locations. It stands to reason that these bumps are causing irregular wear of the pads, making them not contact the rotors in annular rings where the rotor imperfections are.

Check yours out and let me know.

The "visible marks" went away on my car at 1000 miles.

BUT now at 6,800 miles I have some really bad deep grooving, not in the same places. I was looking at some other similar mileage WRXs who had nice flat rotor wear.

I will get it looked at next service.

Glenn

Dave99,

Thank you for your eloquent recital from the dictionary. Can a ring be a spiral or can a spiral be a ring, is there any mutually exclusiveness available, maybe not. :D Anyways, apparently everyone here with a WRX is exhibiting and describing the same type of indications, albeit some with different semantics for said condition. ;)

Frank_M,

M3 ISSUE: I can't explain why you guys on the west coast in the L.A. vicinity have not exhibited the problems that I constantly see with the M3. I have experience on the whole east coast personally and with other M3 comrades. Tracks like: Road America, Black Hawk, Putnam Park, Gingerman, Gratten, Mid-Ohio, VIR, Summit Point, Watkins Glen, Carolina Motorsports, Roebling Road, Road Atlanta and Sebring. I hang out with advanced group, instructors and professional racers and we are indeed at the limits with the stock M3 braking. Everyone I know has the "grooves" or "rings" to various degrees. We are not using the pads that you mentioned, none of them I would consider serious track pads, they are street pads, except for the Pagid if they are reds. We are using pads like Performance Friction PF90, or Carbotech Panthers, KVR, Pagid red, Hawk blues, etc., which are dedicated track pads. Maybe you guys are not driving the cars as hard, thus no need for high performance pads, just guessing.

Maybe there lies some of the problem, individual use dictates. Even so, my M3 original stock pads/rotors that were only used on the street indicated the same problem with less than 20k miles until replacement. So hard use on the track with dedicated track pads is not the only reason.

Bottom line, I have seen many other streetcars do this (not all) and I have mentioned it previously in a prior post. I still stand firm that various reasons dictate this: pad/rotor type, caliper-clamping ability and how are the brakes used contribute to the net effect.

WRX ISSUE: Many here including you, have indicated it appears to be a common thing with the WRX. So we are still debating whether this is normal or not. If everyone has the "rings" one could say that it is normal, but is this condition considered acceptable and within the original design specifications. There lies the dilemma.

I for one and others have not indicated any bad performance problems when used for the street and occasional track use. I personally feel the WRX has somewhat under designed performing brakes for my needs. When I took my WRX to high-speed track events, I was not ultimately happy with the performance. I guess you feel the same; otherwise you would not have put the Stoptech brakes on your WRX.

Bottom line: I think the combination of a performance orientated car such as the WRX, with marginal brake design (rotor swept surface area, pad area, rotor thickness, piston area clamping force etc.), pad material, aggressive nature of WRX use, all contribute to the phenomena that has been exhibited and discussed here. Normal or not this is reality and is there anything that we even need to do about it or is this un-acceptable?

blue5spdwrxwagon,

Yes this happens under the high clamping forces, high rotor velocities and stresses, which cause very high temperatures of the pad/rotor material. The high torque and friction levels cause the pad material to brake down and embed deposits on the rotor as well as fly off as dust. This is one of the reasons for the so-called groove or ring phenomena people are seeing. This is not the answer but a more detailed observation of what is physically happening.

No, I think these are imperfections in the rotor from new. The grooving was present when my car had 4 miles and hasn't changed since. The bumps stand proud of the rotor surface and appear to be cast-in. What I don't understand is why they were not machined off when the rotors were originally turned.

If I am not mistake, the WRX has a 2 front brake caliper. Is the old RS got the same brake? If not the cramping force of the WRX brake will be higher, which in turn would cause more material on the disc surface to come off.
A second explaination is that the metalic material inside the pad is not well distribute enough to cause a "hard spot" on the pad, when force is applied, it will "dig" into the disc more than the surrounding material. Usually this is quite common on performace pad. when used hard enough they will cause the ring. I auto-x my intergra, and notice the same "ring" on my front disc, which was not there before the event. I was using Endless NA-Y performance pad thou.

Mine have the bumps as well. Looks like a poor machining job. I knocked them off with the end of a file. Hopefully the rings will disappear over time.

I had it, then it went away. Smooth rotors now. Hmmm...

Kevin

mine have looked that way since day one, but they dont "Feel" grooved to the touch.. (pic taken the 2nd day i had it)

http://www.pr-roadracing.com/my%20wrx/mvc-370f.jpg

when i first got my wrx in may, i immediately noticed that the left front rotor looked pretty good and smooth, but the right front rotor actually had rings of rotor surface that were completely untouched by the pads. on close inspection, i discovered that there were a few small (perhaps 1/8" wide, 3/16" long, maybe 1/16" high) oblong hunks of metal fused to the surface of the rotor, in the middle of the ring of untouched rotor. using a small nail file, i gave a couple of moderate pry/rubs to the globs, and they popped off the surface. i believe these globs are bits of junk 'burn' metal from the turning process when they cut the rotor surface. it's definitely a defect in manufacturing. the globs basically tore small grooves into the pads. recently - around 2500 miles on the odometer, the brake pad finally started making contact in those rings, and they are almost gone now. but i'll probably want to replace the pads earlier rather than later though...

In my experience the "grooves" were actually raised areas on the rotors caused by imperfections on the rotors that were gouging out small areas of the pads.

The dealer fix was to turn the rotors and remove 2 to 3/1000ths and deglaze and smooth the pads with fine sandpaper. The tech, who has track experience, said that it is not uncommon for track cars to heat treat their brakes through some track time, machine the brakes, and run them in again. The double break-in apparently makes rotors more resistant to warping. Crap? Maybe. But my rotors have been fine since.

After the machining, the dealer recommended that I take it easy for a week or so to allow the rotors and pads to seat.

Cheers

did they turn the rotors under warranty? i was under the impression the rotors weren't covered except for total failure sorts of problems.

I have the same grooves on my rotors since day one. Had the service tech look at then to get it documented that I had a problem with the grooves. They said it was because of hard brake pads. After reading this I think they are feeding people a bunch of bull. Just my $.02.

Anastrophe -

The rotors were done under warranty. The dealer readily admitted that the rotor imperfections were a defect (as they should). In my, and the dealer's, opinion the issue has nothing to do with the pads but was due to the deposits on the rotors

Cheers

I took a look at WRX's at the dealers and the ones with 2 miles on them had the worst grooves in the front. The demo cars that had a few more had less deep groves. They are grooved from the factory for some reason...

I haven't posted anything on this, because "Bad WRX" still isn't repaired. However, since it's come up again here, I can tell you that I do know (and Subaru knows) what the problem is. What I find inexcusable is that Subaru has done nothing to stop the problem from continuing to occur. IMHO, this problem could cause the front brakes to possibly be less effective than they should be, and, unlike Subaru, I do not consider grooving of the rotors to be "normal." I have never had this occur on the 30 or so cars I have owned, and I literally walked the dealer's new- and used-car lots to see if I could find similar grooving on any other car's brakes. From Grand Ams to Corvettes and Mazdas to Hondas, I could not. Only other WRXs showed the front-rotor grooves.

In its newsletter to its district service operations managers (and I would hope other service personnel) a couple of months ago, Subaru said the grooving was caused by the protectant that is applied to the brake rotors to prevent corrosion during shipping. IIRC, what happens is that when the brakes are used, this goo melts, gets deposited on the pads and hardens. The "hard spots" of this goo on the pads etch the rotors. Subaru said in its newsletter that this was not a problem and would disappear after "several thousand miles." I don't know why it would be so tough for dealers to remove the protectant during PDI and eliminate the problem.

When he looked at my car, the district service operations manager (who really is a good guy) only authorized having my rotors turned after I pointed out that the rotors also had concave pits the size of BBs in their surfaces. He wouldn't okay new rotors, although the service writer at the dealer (also a good guy) did authorize new rotors (and possibly new pads) after we discovered that the front rotors also had shavings of metal (presumably from the manufacturing process) "bonded" to them.

So, Subaru has a process that apparently is only a problem for WRXs. What I find so frustrating is the company's "just wait and it will go away" answer. I still wonder if this is a safety issue, and I wonder how it will affect the longetivity of the front brake components. (Of course, if you're "lucky" enough to have the rotors turned on your new car, you'll significantly reduce their lifespan anyway.)

I just think this is a crummy way to run a business—and we haven't even gotten to problems like the the air-conditioning, cracking windshields, vapor-lock, tranny, overall quality, etc., etc, etc.

BTW, I can tell you that the folks from Subaru do read this forum. When I met with the district service operations manager, he had copies of messages from here, and both he and the service writer mentioned "checking the Internet forums" to see what problems had been discussed. I even pointed them to some topics they said they hadn't seen.

I haven't posted anything on this, because "Bad WRX" still isn't repaired. However, since it's come up again here, I can tell you that I do know (and Subaru knows) what the problem is. What I find inexcusable is that Subaru has done nothing to stop the problem from continuing to occur. IMHO, this problem could cause the front brakes to possibly be less effective than they should be, and, unlike Subaru, I do not consider grooving of the rotors to be "normal." I have never had this occur on the 30 or so cars I have owned, and I literally walked the dealer's new- and used-car lots to see if I could find similar grooving on any other car's brakes. From Grand Ams to Corvettes and Mazdas to Hondas, I could not. Only other WRXs showed the front-rotor grooves.

In its newsletter to its district service operations managers (and I would hope other service personnel) a couple of months ago, Subaru said the grooving was caused by the protectant that is applied to the brake rotors to prevent corrosion during shipping. IIRC, what happens is that when the brakes are used, this goo melts, gets deposited on the pads and hardens. The "hard spots" of this goo on the pads etch the rotors. Subaru said in its newsletter that this was not a problem and would disappear after "several thousand miles." I don't know why it would be so tough for dealers to remove the protectant during PDI and eliminate the problem.

When he looked at my car, the district service operations manager (who really is a good guy) only authorized having my rotors turned after I pointed out that the rotors also had concave pits the size of BBs in their surfaces. He wouldn't okay new rotors, although the service writer at the dealer (also a good guy) did authorize new rotors (and possibly new pads) after we discovered that the front rotors also had shavings of metal (presumably from the manufacturing process) "bonded" to them.

So, Subaru has a process that apparently is only a problem for WRXs. What I find so frustrating is the company's "just wait and it will go away" answer. I still wonder if this is a safety issue, and I wonder how it will affect the longetivity of the front brake components. (Of course, if you're "lucky" enough to have the rotors turned on your new car, you'll significantly reduce their lifespan anyway.)

I just think this is a crummy way to run a business—and we haven't even gotten to problems like the the air-conditioning, cracking windshields, vapor-lock, tranny, overall quality, etc., etc, etc.

BTW, I can tell you that the folks from Subaru do read this forum. When I met with the district service operations manager, he had copies of messages from here, and both he and the service writer mentioned "checking the Internet forums" to see what problems had been discussed. I even pointed them to some topics they said they hadn't seen.

Just thought I'd chime in...

8,500 mi. and i still have slight grooves. Don't appear to have changed in the life of the car. Not sure if it's a problem or just a characteristic of these rotors.

I do remember reading in this forum once that someone had seen little "goobers" on the brake pads that seemed to be wearing at the rotors. I also remember them saying they filed them off and then everything smoothed out. Despite knowing this I've never tried to do the same to mine.

Just an idea, but Subaru says the front rotors are ventilated right? Could those be the vents? That would make sense why they get smaller over time and why they're so bad from the factory. If they are not the "vents" from the rotors bent ventilated, then I'm pissed because I don't see any other way that the rotors are ventilated. I expected "slotted" rotors that have the slots going from the hub to the outside edge or crossdrilled holes, but I didn't expect concentric circles. Oh well, doesn't really bother me. Also, this would explain why the back rotors don't experience the grooves, because they weren't supposed to be ventilated from the factory. And I wouldn't always trust every Subaru mechanic. When I had my 3000GT, I seemed to know more about the car then those guys. :rolleyes:

I just rotated my tires at ~6000. I still have grooves cut in my right front rotor as well.:(

^up^

So, has anyone heard anything more about this? My rotors have been this way since day 1 and I can feel it grinding at low speeds. I'm going to take it to the dealer this week. Any info appreciated.
-C

Don't know if this is resolved, yet, but if you spin the wheel/rotor around and look at the groove, there is a small circular bump on the rotors.

Probably a casting error, but it's on the other new WRX's on the lot.

In its newsletter to its district service operations managers (and I would hope other service personnel) a couple of months ago, Subaru said the grooving was caused by the protectant that is applied to the brake rotors to prevent corrosion during shipping. IIRC, what happens is that when the brakes are used, this goo melts, gets deposited on the pads and hardens. The "hard spots" of this goo on the pads etch the rotors. Subaru said in its newsletter that this was not a problem and would disappear after "several thousand miles." I don't know why it would be so tough for dealers to remove the protectant during PDI and eliminate the problem.

I noticed the problem on my WRX not 700 miles after I got it. I took it in and was handed a paper addressed to the service department from SOA discussing this - he made a copy for me and told me if it didn't go away eventually they would take another look at it. I now have around 2500 miles and the grooves are still there.

I have not noticed this affecting performance at all, but I do want this issue addressed. Here is the quote from the paper I have.

------------

2002MY Impreza Brake Rotor "Scoring"

2002MY Impreza brake rotors are treated with Da-Cromet, a silver colored rustproofing which will help keep the rotor surfaces from rusting during the initial stages of transportation.

Appearance of the front brake rotors (looking like they are scored) comes from the infredients of the Da-Cromet coating and the brake pad material. When heated due to repeated and sudden stopping, the coating turns into a grain-like substance and adheres to the pad and rotor. This giving it the appearance of looking like the rotor is scored.

Some of the Da-Croment grains are usually left behind on the rotor surface and the brake pad. This material will look like a silver line/score on the rotor surface. After several thousand miles of driving, the grains and lines will disappear from the rotor surface.

The Da-Croment coating tends to easily create this condiion on the 2002 Impreza rotor due to a reaction of the pad material (which is different from other models) reacting with the coating. Because of the performance requirements of this particular brake pad, no changes are pending.

The Da-Cromet grains/lines will NOT influence the performance of the braking system or contribute to any noice condition. The rotors should not be cut to eliminate this appearance of the rotor.

---------------

Those grooves are manufacturing defects, plain and simple.

Dodge had a similar problem a few years back. Someone skipped a step in the machining process in the factory and the rotors weren't ground even.

There have been reports of brake pads wearing out before 5K miles on these "scored" WRX rotors. This is identical to what happened to Dodge.

Please check the photos I have attached. You will see that the rotor surfaces are not flat. The are "burrs" in the surface that cause this. It is NOT brake shoe related.

We all need to complain VERY LOUDLY to Subaru and our dealers that the brake rotors are defective and need to be replaced.

We really should demand a recall. This is ridiculous.

I strongly recommend that EVERYONE send an e-mail and call

Patti Mickel
Training/Quality Control Leader
Customer Dealer Services
Subaru of America, Inc.
pmickel@Subaru.com
856-488-3437

Don't put up with this!

Picture 2

My car has that groove and burr as well. I will take it to the dealer for an inspection.

You may report this obvious mechanical defect and safety issue to the NHTSA at the following web site:

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov

I urge you to make your voice heard!:mad:

Kurichan:

Good work and good post.

People: Grooves are not normal, don't take any patronizing crap from your dealer explaining that blah blah blah front brakes do most of the work blah blah this is normal :rolleyes: Not normal ... go check a KIA or some other nice car half the price of the WRX ... no grooves and they have drums in back which do no breaking :D

Repeat after me ... grooves not normal ... again ...

Stress relief over ... back to lurking.;)

Subaru says the protectant gives the brake rotors the "appearance" of being scored. Baloney. The surface of the rotors IS scored.

So, what happens when a bump of goo that has bonded to the pad and has grooved the rotor falls off the pad? During braking, the pad will not go into the groove to make contact with the bottom of the groove; instead, the pad will ride on the "shoulders" of the groove—in reality, reducing the amount of pad surface that contacts the rotors.

Gee, if you multiply that phenomenon by six or eight or ten grooves, do you think less pad surface contacting the rotors might reduce braking performance? :rolleyes:

Also, Subaru says this happens when the brakes are "heated due to repeated and sudden stopping." My car has never been driven in this manner; in fact, I have yet to get on the brakes hard even once, and I have never gotten near the point of getting into the ABS.

I'd like to see some more pics of grooved rotors.

I have the same problem, but figured that the grooves were intentional in order to increase surface area. If so, then all of our grooves should be in the same places.

I don't buy this garbage about some coating getting stuck in the pads and scoring the rotors - seems way too dangerous to let something like that go by.

PEACE

OUT

We can all send pictures (I sent some), but the best place to go to compare is your local Subie dealer.

You will find brand new WRX's (no heavy braking yet) on the showroom floor with random groovy rotor art all over the front rotors!!

Check them out. Completely random defects. These grooves are not meant to be there, believe me.

I repeat, complain loudly and persistently to Subaru of America (see my earlier post with contact info) and to the NHTSA (contact info also in my earlier post).

Subaru owes us all new rotors.

This is not only ridiculous, but irresponsible of Subaru!:mad:

Still, UPLOAD THOSE PICTURES! Send e-mail to Subaru, call Subaru, file complaints with the NHTSA! Don't let them pull the wool over your eyes!

Examine your rotors carefully. In my case, what appeared to be grooves were in fact ridges caused by bits of metal not removed during the machining process cutting notches in the brake pads. After I knocked the excess metal off with the end of a file, and the pads began to wear, the rings disappeared.

My front rotors are definitely grooved—I can feel the grooves—and the right side has many more grooves than the left side. There is no pattern: I have looked at several WRXs, and the location of the grooves is random.

I don't buy Subaru's explanation, either; I was only reporting what Subaru said. Even if the rotors weren't being damaged, Subaru's story still doesn't address the bits of metal "bonding" to the rotor surfaces or the pits in the rotor surfaces.

I have about 5k miles on it and the grooves are still there since day one that I got the car.

I saw a WRX without them with 5 miles on it and one with them with 5 miles on it. So, I really think it is a defect, not soem crap that gets put on the rotors. I've used powerslot rotors before and they are painted. It does not cause grooves.

I just sent her an email expressing my my concerns about Subaru quality, especially after owning three Honda/Acura's before this.

-C

That SOA Da-Cromet reply is nonsense. It might apply to a few cases, but I wonder how foolish they think the average WRX buyer really is?! :rolleyes: If this was the sleek and sexy IS300 forum, then maybe they might have a chance at pulling the wool over our eyes, but come on, give us a little credit, SOA. We didn't root for and buy an ugly car because we're blind and charitable. We bought the WRX because of it's racing heritage and good engineering specs!

I find this Da-Cromet postulation insulting to my intelligence, both as a consumer and an engineer. Imagine a person looking at a flat surface and mistaking a protrusion (deposition of "grain" material) for a deep groove?! And then running your fingers over this wide groove and mistaking a peak for a valley? It's a fact there are grooves in the brake rotors.

You're telling me this spray-on anti-rust coating becomes harder than steel? Hard enough to withstand cutting into a brake rotor over many thousands of cycles? And what about these large metal nuggets in the brake material that people have discovered? Are these the "grains" you're talking about formed from the chemical reaction between Da-Cromet and the brake pad material?

That letter does not make any sense. SOA, if you're gonna venture a scientific explanation for a major safety concern, then make sure a competent technical writer, scientist, or engineer writes it the next time. :mad: Don't dispense bull$hit as an engineering placebo. Do your homework, let the beancounters juggle their beans, and set the record straight with an acceptable compensation.

Dave.

For the past 2 days i've had my WRX in because of the grooves on the brakes. But not just that. The brakes fade, and the wheel shudders under extended driving periods. my car has only 5800 miles or so on it, and this should not be an issue.

the dealer tells me "the grooves are completely normal. subaru uses a type of ceramic pad which beds unevenly. but don't worry, it's completely normal. subaru hasn't authorized us to replace anything, but we'll be happy to note your complaint."

well that's all well and good, but i'm saying one word "recall!" give us some real brakes for goodness sake.

if they're going to sell us a car that handles and accellerates like a race car, it should be able to stop like on too! or at least stop at all... brakes are one thing that shouldn't be skimped on when trying to cut down manufacturing costs. especially when you're touting the vehicle as "high performance." if those brakes are "hp" then let lightning strike me down right now. :mad:

My friendly service rep just called to tell me that he has ordered new rotors and shoes.

They are going to REPLACE MY FRONT ROTORS!!

He explained that they are doing it on DEALER INITIATIVE. I sort of feel bad for them because this is really SUBARU's FAULT.

Keep pushing guys! Everyone affected (afflicted?) deserves the same treatment. Make your dissatisfaction known. Contact Subaru.

:D

My WRX has 8400 miles. The rotors are badly grooved. This is not to be confused with the marks that appear < 1000 miles.

The car had a period when the rotors looked perfect. They have got steadily worse.

I have seen other WRXs with similar mileage that DO NOT have the grooving.

I am taking it to the dealer to see what they say. I will not accept turning the rotors, only replacement.

Glenn

My brakes had grooves when it came off the truck. They have since gotten better after 5700 miles.

I complained to my dealer about the brakes...I was down to the wear indicator on the driver front inside pad....plus I had bad warpage when braking from speed......the dealer turned the rotors (I said I wanted new rotors, and they said they would comply if the turning did not work) and put brand new pads on.....now 3 weeks later, I have not a single groove on the stock rotors....so yes I would say the stock pads have something in them harder than the rotor....the pads the dealer put on my car now have not caused any problems................now I am about to have the front pass. strut replaced...it is on order and will be here any day.......BTW- I have had no CEL since i connected that little hose to the blue T near the alternator...and since they fixed my timing......I am a happy WRX owner......no more annoying little problems.................

Yes, I got groovy rotors too and intend to take to dealer when I got the time.
But how come nobody here mentions how RUSTY these rotors get? After washing or storm boy do they rust! My other cars do not do that.

The rust on the rotors is normal, they are iron after all.

The grooves are not bothering me, my Toyota has them too. To a lesser degree the mini van next to my WRX has grooves too.

I don't see the big deal in this, so there are abrasion marks on a friction surface, what difference does it make? If the rotor and pad never saw any dirt/sand/grit of any type they might stay smooth forever.

BTW New rotors are $85.00 each p/n 26310AC040

l8tr

hmmm...buy new rotors to replace rotors that should not be in need of replacement nor want to replace ...(yet, anyway)....($170)....or.......buy something we already don't have or something we want to replace....ie- BOV ($170), intake ($170-300), side skirts ($200), window tinting ($170-200), pullies ($150), STi engine/tranny mounts ($140-400), shift knobs($20-150), short shifters ($80-200), radar detectors ($80-400), MBC ($20-180), rear muffler ($150-800), etc...etc...etc....the deeper the "abrasion" marks...the more material that is "turned" off the rotor to resurface them....the more material taken off per resurfacing the lower the amount of times you can have them resurfaced.....and then you will HAVE to buy new rotors....some people do not want to have to do that.....I would rather decide to do that in my own free time........then I will buy upgraded slotted and/or crossdrilled rotors with upgraded pads.....there are other things I want to do to my car first though........I think the brakes are pretty good when all is in working order...as I said above, my rotors have been resurfaced, 3 weeks ago, and I have new pads put on by the dealer....and now I have not one groove....still very smooth...I believe that the pads made the difference....

Some of you people bitch too much. Mine has the grooves and it also takes a double clutch action to get my car in reverse sometimes but I'm not going to the dealer everyday bitching at them. Live with it. "My A/C doesn't cool good, my brakes look funny, I can't put my car in 1st gear over 10MPH, I can't go into reverse without double clutching.. blah blah blah, bitch bitch bitch. " You paid $25K for a car, until I pay $500,000 for a car I'm not taking it to a dealer for stupid little "annoyances." If the tires blew out at 50MPH then I could see the bitching.

My 2 cents though.

I don't want to start a flame war, but the above is the most ridiculous opinion I've seen in a long time.:rolleyes:

I've taken my car in on smaller issues, I've prefaced my concerns with: "I'm sorry to bring it in on something so minor, but I'd like to get the car in proper mechanical order" to which they say "No need for apologies, we agree with you completely! You paid a lot of money for this car and we want it to be perfect for you."

Expecting a car to be in proper, functioning, mechanical order is natural, REGARDLESS of price.

agreed...

Jorge (RiftsWRX)
www.ProjectWRX.com

Expecting a car to be in proper, functioning, mechanical order is natural, REGARDLESS of price.

Exactly. It's their obligation ESPECIALLY when it comes to saftey, such as a braking issue. I paid for the extended warranty and I'm gonna use it. The dealer get's paid by the manufactuer anyway (from what I understand) for warranty work.

-C

Originally posted by kurichan
I don't want to start a flame war, but the above is the most ridiculous opinion I've seen in a long time.:rolleyes:
Expecting a car to be in proper, functioning, mechanical order is natural, REGARDLESS of price.

Amen, brother.

I have received this response from Patti Mikel of Subaru
the address enclosed in this thread..
I think E-mailing her is probaly the wrong venu..


Mr. Lutz:

Thank you for writing. I know that someone posted my e-mail address at the
i-club. Please be advised that if you are having a brake performance
concern, you should make an appointment with your dealer. If you are
unhappy with the appearance of the rotor, you should call us at
1-800-SUBARU3. A Representative will create a case file that will document
your concerns. This is not a brush off. We do report on information
related to case coding to numerous departments within Subaru. The best way
to have your message heard is through these channels.

Unfortunately, I am not able to help you directly. If our customer's were
dependent on me, I would never be able to give their cases the attention
they deserve as my responsibilities are different.

I'm sorry that I cannot help you but I encourage you to have your concerns
addressed through the channels listed above.

Thanks!

Patti

Originally posted by ssmv650
I have received this response from Patti Mikel of Subaru
the address enclosed in this thread..
I think E-mailing her is probaly the wrong venu..


Mr. Lutz:

Thank you for writing. I know that someone posted my e-mail address at the
i-club. Please be advised that if you are having a brake performance
concern, you should make an appointment with your dealer. If you are
unhappy with the appearance of the rotor, you should call us at
1-800-SUBARU3. A Representative will create a case file that will document
your concerns. This is not a brush off. We do report on information
related to case coding to numerous departments within Subaru. The best way
to have your message heard is through these channels.

Unfortunately, I am not able to help you directly. If our customer's were
dependent on me, I would never be able to give their cases the attention
they deserve as my responsibilities are different.

I'm sorry that I cannot help you but I encourage you to have your concerns
addressed through the channels listed above.

Thanks!

Patti

yeah, when I tried to email her, my mail gets returned to me. I think she set up some kind of filter, or changed here address.
We'll see. -C

Why is it so rediculous? Maybe because I have to put up with people all the time who didn't even pay $25K for their computer here at work and they get mad and can't stand it if they have to enter their password twice when change it once a month to authenticate it. "Why do I have to do that?? *whine whine whine* It takes too long..." It takes 4 seconds! If I have to push the clutch in before I go to reverse then I'll do it, no bitching. If I had to reset the ECU everytime I drove my car then I'd get mad. I'm just saying all I've heard on this board is whining. It sounds like a lot of you "stepped down" to a WRX from a fancier, pricier vehicle instead of stepping up. Oh well, it's my opinion even thogh no one agrees.

Unless you are scared of the dealer...take your car in for any gripes that you may have....now if you are scared, you may bring someone with you, possibly they could hold your hand as you ask the dealer to fix items that should not need fixing......but if your really, really scared...just deal with the problem in your own way....which would seem to be....the do nothing approach.......enjoy

I'm certainly not scared of my dealership. They must be scared of me since they won't pull their lips off my ass for 2 seconds. I guess seeing the big mountain man come from the woods into the "big city" scares them. Just let me drive my primered '87 Monte Carlo down there. :lol:

Thats the thing Sorny, I did step in price.....my '00 grand am gt had similiar problems with the brakes...they warped very easily...a common problem for that year I might add.....i dealt with that on my own...i bought higher quality slotted rotors with ceramic pads....I had the money so I spent it......now with the WRX being a performance orientated vehicle that it is....I expect the brakes to be all that much better than the grand am's.....and with out warpage, grinding, grooving....whatever the problem may be....for almost $6000 more than I paid for my grand am (I got a discount through GM, $23k grand am gt was $20K for me) and doubly because of the more sporty performance image....I expect better brakes.....at the very least...defect free.......and I am not going to deal with them myself this time....I may buy better brakes someday...actually I am sure I will....but not now....

Sorny-

do live far from the dealer? then I could understand....but I know that for me a dealer is 5 maybe 10 minutes away....so why not get it checked out...right?

I'm sorry for any harsh words. I hadn't had a cigarette since this morning. ;) Maybe I didn't realize that the dealership is only 5 minutes away from some people and the two closest dealerships are at least an hour away from me. Lo Siento

My brake rotors were kinda grooved and started to develop a warp with time. Took it into the dealer and they fixed it for me no problem in a couple hours. I was hoping to get new rotors but they only machined them. But whatever, it fixes the problem and if they are warped again in 6 months, I will make them fix it again. If something is wrong with your car, don't hesitate to at least talk to the dealer about it. These little problems people have been having might be addressed in 2002.5 or 2003 if people will tell their dealers about them.
Just my 2 cents..

well ladies and gentlemen,

if you actually contact subaru, here's what you'll get back. i'll copy my letter to them, their reply, and my second letter. here goes: (sorry it's so long, but i thought some of you might be interested)


I wanted to take a moment to tell you about a problem I have had with my new Subaru Impreza WRX. This problem, although completely apparent, has been ignored by Subaru and its dealers. My concern is with the brakes that come standard on my vehicle. The rotors and pads are very poor quality, and after only one hour of driving I experience wheel shudder and brake fade. After only 5800 miles on my vehicle, my brakes have significant sized grooves and burrs. This link is a picture of a WRX rotor in the same condition as mine, a discussion on the inadequacy of these brakes, and dealer's reactions to customer's/enthusiast's concerns. (http://www.i-club.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=879004) As an active member of the I-Club, a website for true Subaru enthusiasts, my concern is shared unanimously by its members.
The Euro-spec WRX comes standard with 17" wheels, 12.9" rotors, and 4 piston calipers. Why is it that the US version, with ONLY 40 less horse power shares its brake components and wheels with the 2.5RS, a vehicle with 100 less horse power? Tell me that's not confusing. Something needs to be done to correct this problem quickly. The WRX needs larger, more performance oriented brakes. If Subaru considers the WRX a high performance vehicle, why then has it been given econo-box wheels and brake setup? The whole matter makes no sense to me. I have a problem; the dealer tells me to ignore it. My car has obvious flaws; Subaru says it's normal. Well, having grooved and burred rotors after only 5800 miles of driving is NOT normal by any car company's standards. Subaru should not be any exception.
As I mentioned, my concern is shared by many. I doubt this is the first letter you received on this topic, and I'm sure it will not be the last. Subaru needs to take the standpoint of correcting this result of a lack of judgement. Subaru's enthusiasts are its core market. Satisfying us can only do good things for Subaru's future.
I appreciate any time you spend reading and addressing my concern, and truly hope to see some resolution. Please feel free to contact me. I will be happy to speak with you personally. Thank you very much, and I look forward to your reply.


Sincerely,

Paul Kaufmann

their reply:

Dear Mr. Kaufmann:


Thank you for contacting me concerning the brake issue with your 2002 WRX.


We appreciate your suggestions for the improvement of our product. We have taken the liberty of forwarding your suggestions to our Product Planning Department for possible consideration on future Subaru WRX models.


If you are still experiencing brake shutter and fade, please make an appointment with an Authorized Subaru Dealer. They are in the best position to handle your concerns. If you would like to notify me of your appointment with the dealer, I would be happy to follow up with them. Please see phone and case number below.


Your owner loyalty and comments are important to us. The information you provided has been logged into our customer service system, which we use to track dealer and product performance. If you have any further questions, please call our customer dealer services center at 800-SUBARU3.


Case # 337932


Matthew DeVeau

my last one, that i haven't gotten a reply to yet:

Mr. Deveau,

Thank you for the reply. As I mentioned in my email, I have seen the dealer. They investigated my problem for 2 days, contacted Subaru, and told me nothing could be done. The best they could do was "make a note of it on my file." Which isn't what I had anticipated, but hopefully will help when my brakes fail completely; which I'm expecting in the not too distant future. It seems as though the only choice Subaru gives it's customers is to spend the exorbitant amount of money on the BBS wheels and STi brakes. I appreciate you sending my concerns to your Product Planning Department, but how is this going to help current WRX owners? I am not speaking for just myself on this matter. I am representing every WRX owner that has shoddy braking performance. I lost count of the number of brake complaints I've seen on the I-Club. Check it out for yourself, you will see the massive amounts of brake problems that are being reported on the WRX. www.i-club.com

I simply have a problem with standing idly by and watching Subaru deny the obvious problem. Did you see the picture? I've had mechanics tell me "It looks like someone took a fork to your rotors!" Comments like that, from mechanics(!), don't give me the impression that everything is "normal."

Please understand, I am not complaining about the quality of my WRX. I truly love my car, and I am extremely happy with everything but this one issue. In my opinion, and I believe I speak for many others, something must be done. Come on Subaru, take care of your enthusiasts! We're the ones that purchase more than one Subaru, the ones that bring you more customers, and the ones that tell everyone that asks how much we love our Subes! Taking some action on our suggestions/complaints should not require more than a second thought.

Sincerely,

Paul Kaufmann
610-399-4187

I have near 3000 miles on my car and I too have grooves in my front left roter. I think I'm just going to have it looked at just to be sure.

Originally posted by kurichan
My friendly service rep just called to tell me that he has ordered new rotors and shoes.

They are going to REPLACE MY FRONT ROTORS!!

He explained that they are doing it on DEALER INITIATIVE. I sort of feel bad for them because this is really SUBARU's FAULT.

Keep pushing guys! Everyone affected (afflicted?) deserves the same treatment. Make your dissatisfaction known. Contact Subaru.

:D

The plot thickens...

We now know for sure that Subaru lurks here.

According to my service rep, someone at Subaru went to the trouble to contact my dealer and instruct them to NOT service my brakes.

So now the dealer won't fix my DEFECTIVE brakes.

This is out of hand.

I am returning my car and NEVER buying a Subaru again.

I also will not buy a GM (basically owns Subaru). This irresponsible action is in line with their corporate history. Fuji Jukogyo (Subaru) was producing defective trainer jets for the military for many years in Japan and refused to admit the defects (despite DEFINITELY knowing about the defects--sound familiar?). People died. Does one of us have to have a brake failure and die for them to take responsibility and fix this DEFECT?!?!:mad:

Please report your concerns about this OBVIOUS DEFECT to the NHTSA at http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov.

A recall is our only hope.

Does anyone have any ideas for a good alternative to the WRX?:rolleyes:

I don't have anything new to contribute, but just to trow in one more voice: WRX, 1 week old, 700 miles, both my front rotors look like hell (very similar to some of the images posted). I mostly drove the car gently (break-in!), maybe had to make two or three harder stops.

While going for a drive with a few other i-clubbers today, I checked out the other two WRXes there, both also less than one month old. One of them had the grooves nearly as bad as mine, the other one had less severe grooves.

I'm going to call the service department of my dealer and see what they say. After reading this thread, I don't expect much, but making the problem known is probably the best we can do.

I went to the dealer and had them look at them - I was there for the free oil change. They looked at them and put this on the invoice: typed "Customer stated front brakes are scored and advise" , and hand written "No problem found at this time with brakes. just a little road dust and brake dust causing scorring on the surface of the rotor".

After 400 miles I have no grooves. Not the smoothest rotor in the world mind you, but I have seen worse. We have agressive pads, its expected. It does look scored however because of the paint on the rotor, but smooth to the touch. Hopefully they will hold up.

FYI - After 2 months of owning my Prelude the rotors warped. Many manufacturers skimp on breaks cause the good ones are expensive (Brembo) and typically Americans don't look at brakes as a selling point. And most don't have problems cause they don't drive like us maniacs and don't care if their rotors are scored. Just my 0.02...

brake scoring and burrs here too. 1000 miles in.

I have 3100 miles on my WRX and I also have concentric rings on my rotors. I just went outside to check if they were grooves or not and they are not grooves yet, just discoloration. I feel a burr on one of the rings though. I will mention it to the dealer when I go for the 3000 mile service.:(

I think we should just have someone compile a list of VIN #'s and send a huge report to the Feds about this. And that they had the nerve to call the dealer and cancel the brake repair for the guy above is rediculoius. I've had 3 Honda/Acuras before this and don't want to regret buying a Subaru (especially at $25K +)!

-C

Not to t-off too many people but has anyone actually had a braking problem caused by the rotor scoring?

Mine are scored, pads are worn out, I did it to the brakes, no big deal.

I read some of these posts and think whoa, what's the deal? the brakes aren't failing, they stop very well in legal driving, pretty well in more active pursuits, and have a problem when over driven.

All brakes can warp, my Honda brakes warped from big time overtightening of the lug nuts (seemed to make sense) with 4 bolts and steel wheels. GTI brakes warped from excessive abuse (which at the time was disguised as enthusiast driving) A:p If you drive your car hard the pads will wear out, maybe the rotors will be really badly scored and warped too, how much abuse should they take?

Has there been a WRX driven through a red light because the rotors were ugly? Wheel covers could do wonders for this problem.

OK Flame Away.

Hmm interesting thread. I have 6300 miles on my car and one (right front) rotor has a "ring" on it. Upon closer inspection there was indeed a "glob" of something (hard, metallic) stuck on the rotor. It seems softer than the rotor, as a few picks with a knife and off it came. It must be hard enough to wear the pad so that it doesn't touch in that 1/16 inch spot. After a few days the "ring" began to disappear. This appears to be mostly a cosmetic flaw, and until there is repeatable, considerable proof that there is a dangerous performance side effect, I doubt SOA will do anything--that is just how big business works.
I didn't notice anything for 6300 miles, and I drive down a mountain pass (3000 ft elevation drop and 7% grades over the course of 15 miles or so) every day (often very aggressively) where I would definetly notice brake problems. The brakes are good, consistent and reliable, with no apparent change (except cosmetic) since the little glob was removed. I imagine their limitations would be noticable at the the track (I'll see next month).
I hope you who are having more serious problems with this get it worked out. If it is affecting your braking (e.g. your stops from 60 or 70 mph are consistently 10-20 feet more than the average WRX) then SOA should fix it.

TRS

After carefully inspecting my front brakes, my dealer will be replacing both of my front rotors. He will also replace the pads if they are damaged or excessively worn.

I will take that as a sign that at 1,200 miles, there was a problem. (I now have about 2,100 on the car.)

My dealer promised the same thing until SUbaru contacted them and told them NOT to do the work.

Good luck.

Yup, I've got the grooves too! -only 3 months and 6000 miles. (lots of highway driving) I'm going in for service today and will definately talk with the dealer about this issue. I will admit that my wagon's braking still operates fine, but don't want the problem to get worse. I'll let you know what happens...

The front rotors in my civic warped by 6,000 miles. The dealer told me it was common and that it was not covered under warranty...normal wear and tear.
Granted, the WRX is marketed as a sportier car (and it does have much better brakes than my Honda) I think the guy who said manufacturers skimp on brakes may be on to something.

I just returned from the dealership who inspected the rotors and claimed that nothing was wrong. I have to admit the car brakes well, but its discerning to see these grooves.

Just for fun, I took a look at the few WRXs they had on the lot. Every one had multiple circles (grooves) in the front discs. I don't know what to think about all of this, except that all WRXs have them? Like I mentioned before, my brakes appear to be operating normally. Time will tell...

Originally posted by zoomzoom


Just for fun, I took a look at the few WRXs they had on the lot. Every one had multiple circles (grooves) in the front discs. I don't know what to think about all of this, except that all WRXs have them?

A better "test" might be to look around the lot and see what OTHER cars have them. I did this, and could not find another single car—new or used—that had brakes in a similar condition.

I know Spa has a legit claim, but you guys have to do the correct check. You must feel the rotors! The rotors come painted from the factory. This paint wears off after a few hundred miles. Sometimes, the paint is still in a spot (ring) because the pad is not totally seated yet. It goes away. I have 750 miles on my car and no grooves and the paint has worn off.

Granted the rotors are not as smooth as brembos, but they are not grooved. Remember that Subaru did skimp on the brakes to save some money. But the stock brakes are more than adequate for a commuter car. If you are going to race the car or do any heavy spiritted canyon carving, I'd suggest some brembo rotors (powerslot are brembos), some good pads, and some Motul fluid. That's what I will do once I tear the crap out of these rotors and pads. Won't take long, trust me. :)

FYI - Brembos are awesome rotors. Never had one warp ever.

After carefully inspecting my front brakes, my dealer will be replacing both of my front rotors. He will also replace the pads if they are damaged or excessively worn.

I would avoid any dealer that suggests replacing the front rotors without replacing the pads.

re: the WRX sharing brakes with the 2.5RS - it only shares brakes with the 02 2.5 RS, not the previous car. They are also the same "larger" brakes used on the H6 Legacy.

They are actually pretty adequate - at least compared to the JDM/UK 4 pots --- while the 4 pots have better clamping they only have marginally bigger swept area.

I personally think the "visible marks" seen by most owners at <= 1000 miles are not an issue. I ignored mine and they went away.
My rotors looked "perfect" at 2000 miles.

The deep grooves right across the rotors I now have at 8,800 miles are bad news - I should post a picture. I am not whining - I haven't had time to get the car to a dealer.

Glenn

Originally posted by Glenn Wallace


I would avoid any dealer that suggests replacing the front rotors without replacing the pads.
Glenn

Because Subaru has been so reluctant to recognize or do something about this problem, I'm sure the service department is being very careful in its language. However, I can't imagine that the pads won't get replaced.

IMO you should avoid replacing rotors and pads at the same time. The old pads have been heat treated by wear which will allow them to bed in the new rotors better than soft new pads. At least wait until the new rotor is bedded in before replacing the pads (unless they are shot, of course).

Originally posted by Martin Ritchie
IMO you should avoid replacing rotors and pads at the same time. The old pads have been heat treated by wear which will allow them to bed in the new rotors better than soft new pads. At least wait until the new rotor is bedded in before replacing the pads (unless they are shot, of course).

The old pads are also shaped to fit the grooves in the old rotors, which makes the old pads pretty worthless...

In that case, I agree. Replace both pads and rotors.