I have a question... it has always bothered me and no one has been able to give me a good explanation.

It came up in another thread a discussion regarding switching 'back' to the stock map for stock class auto-x.

What exactly IS a/the stock map? I've always held the standpoint that it's the map that came from the factory on YOUR car. It can be made that each car gets a different one, or a handful of cars (in the thousands) get different maps than the next thousand. That is stock IMHO.

I understand the rules enough to understand that SOA can issue a change to the software and you have every right to that change via a re-flash. However, there's nothing in the rules that say that 'stock' flash can come from.. therefore it falls back on the definition of 'standard part' in the rule book... which is as provided by the manufacturer.

Therefore, I fell any flashes to your stock ECU, since it can involve a performance change, MUST come from SOA since they own and wrote the software on your car. (Just like you can't change the ECUs in a Vette, or a Honda).

Onto aftermarket flashing...

You flash the car, and have Stage 2 STX maps. You no longer have stock software on your ECU.

Here's the sticky part... Even if you re-flash it back to what COBB calls a 'stock' map, again IMHO it's an aftermarket change of a stock item that CAN be of a performance benefit and that is explicitly not allowed by the rules.

And this is why I say it's not legal:
Cobb's 'stock' maps are made from various samples from different cars and taking the best values of all of them to make the 'uber' stock map. That's no longer stock because you can't get that map from SOA. And ECU programs are not allowed to be changed... at all. So the Cobb 'Stock' map is really a 'changed' map from the way your car came from the factory.

IMHO, unless it was re-flashed by SOA back to the stock maps provided by SOA, that chip is no longer stock and should never be allowed back into stock class unless replaced by a chip that was never modified.

--kC

So, with all that said, is it your belief that only piggy backs should be allowed?

More importantly, and unfortunately, how are you going to police for the 'uber stock maps'?

See as how there is already a solution out there that allows you to 'change' the stock maps, and the fact that anyone can do this, how are you going to police everyone's ECU? Will there be checksum checks before and after every run? Before the event? If they are smart, they COULD reflash their own ECU to a 'legal' checksum value, or for whatever you are looking for.

To me, the issue you bring up has TOO many permutations. The only way that problems like this are generally solved by the SCCA is to allow unlimited modification to the part in question making policing something that doesn't have to be done, and make the mechanical side of the equation the limiting factor. That way, you just have to pay to play, instead of pay to police. (I.e. See ESP proposal next year for turbo cars.)

Input?

- dow

Stock map is the one your car came with or one that SOA flashed it to for you. Cobb's STX map isn't STX legal and I would doubt their stock map is anywhere close to stock.

Enforcement is another effort entirely and one that I don't think there is any good way of dealing with. Our car has an ECUTek flash, and I doubt even most dealers could tell it was done. I know we aren't cheating, the guys at TopSpeed know they didn't put in a cheater flash, and the other people who tuned at TopSpeed know they probably would have been told if we were cheating. But other than that everyone else basically simply has to take our word for it. The problem of course is that we all know there are plenty of people who ARE cheating, either intentionally or because they don't know the rules.

I'd have to agree w/ KC in the case of someone going back to stock class (that can't be a very common occurence though I would think). A stock ECU is a stock ECU- not one that take the best from each ECU.

I still think the real tough issue (that dow touched on) is w/ Street classes where some ECU adjustments are allowed (but not others)- that is very, very (impossible?) difficult to moniter. I'd have to agree that the easiest route in this scenario is to allow unlimited modification to the ECU- I'm sure some will scream foul, but when it's very difficult to impossible to moniter (police) that seems like the best route.

You bring up too many what ifs and reading into it too much to what I was saying....

This convo was brought up with someone saying they want to run a switchable map in stock. All this is is a suggestion to those running switchable maps in stock.. they're most likely not legal, even if you're running the 'COBB STOCK' (or other than SOA) map.

I wholly agree about what you say about the rules.

1) I agree it's difficult to police.. as we are self policing and hope everyone treats the rules with the same scope. IMHO... here's no place in STOCK for a modified ECU that was changed post factory. (see below about permutations). However I'm not looking for anyone to police anything. I'm leaving it up to the COMPETITOR to understand that switchable maps are NOT ALLOWED in stock, even if putting it back on the 'COBB STOCK' MAP. What's there to police? It's not a stock 'standard' map. I'm not out to go after everyone and I'm not suggesting that anyone else go after boosted cars to check.

Again... I'm simply stating that the subject at hand (switchable maps) are most likely not legal in Stock and that anyone looking to run one in STOCK might want to think otherwise about doing so. (not looking at someone running a hidden map.. that's cheating... no way to police other than someones conscience of a shallow victory)

2) Bringing this out like I have is in the hopes that people who are considering using switchable maps understand there are people out here watching, and don't like what they see (again.... the problem is with the rules, not the competitor in most instances as the competitor just wants to play).

However I don't agree about what you said about too many permutations. I'm talking about stock here. Stock means ecus aren't to be touched PERIOD. How to check? Plug in and see if it's switchable. Not that very hard. If it's switchable.. then you're not legal.. even with a stock map because your ECU has been modified away from standard (it now has code on it allowing it to be switched and it didn't come from the factory allowing a process to switch your maps).

If there's a cheater (hidden maps/same checksums.. whatever that's different than someone just running a switchable map)... I'm not saying they'll be found, or offering a suggestion to police them... again... just talking about those running 'switchable maps' and leaving it up to the competitor to understand that it's, again, most likely not legal in Stock according to my intrepretation of the rules.

I'm out of the boost game, for now. I'm in BS.. a class without this issue or having to worry about it.. hence I have no stake in this argument other than rules clarity and understanding between competitors.

This thread isn't about policing. It's about awareness. It's not a personal attack. It's just bringing something out into the open that some n00bs might be considering.. then 2 years down the road, want to come and play at nationals in stock, and realize that their car might not be legal.

One more point... I've also proposed to make boost changes legal in ST like SP.. move all those running boosted cars up one class until you hit the plateau of STU.

ST would need a restructure within the next couple years with AST, BST and so on, IMHO, to make the unlimited boost work fairly.

--kC

When I went to have my car tuned at KTR, my STi put out about 30whp less than my friends identically equipped STi...before our tune. Franz looked at my vin, looked at the info in the stock ecu, and could tell my car had one of the late dealer reflashes to help cure the detonation that some STis suffered.

So question..is a dealer reflash considered stock..since SOA gave out the directive?

If I returned to stock, would i need to run the dealer reflash?

If i returned to stock, could i run any stock reflash, including the early production flash that made more power at the risk of detonation?

Chris H.

It's a great point and I did use the "stock" mode when I was competing in DS when I was actually running Stg.1 on the streets. It was a good selling point for me to get into this Enigne Management.

I have not read anywhere that the stock map used is an "uber map". It may be less competitive than some directly from the mfr.

I know it's a map "within the SOA stock perameters"
If I was to compete in Nationals in DS, I would consider having a flash by the dealership because of your post but I would probably just unmarry the software and let it be stock as much as possible.

What about those that have modded with this and just getting started? Scare them into a SM class because they may be running modified perameters / boost in "stock mode" ?

What about the Cobb STX maps are illegal? Or is it just a mistrust thing? I do know I take self-policing seriously but weigh it against real world and my daily driver duties. I ALWAYS change the map from Stg2 to STX the night before or the week before but I could imagine it might be something that someone "forgets".

That's my side. Winning means less if you had to cheat to get there.

What about the Cobb STX maps are illegal?

For use with a stock turbo, stock injectors, stock intake and a TURBOBACK
exhaust system. Additional modifications such as uppipe and underdrive pulley
are still within the acceptable parameters of this mapping. MUST USE FACTORY
INTAKE. NO AFTERMARKET INTAKES ARE CERTIFIED COMPATIBLE WITH THIS MAPPING.
Best if used with 93 and 94 octane.
Stock target boost pressure and stock turbo wastegate duty cycle maps are used
per SCCA Solo2/ProSolo STX rules. NO BOOST MAPPING ADJUSTMENTS ARE MADE.
Target A/F Ratios are mid 12's under load before the onset of boost. Under full
load by 3500 RPM the A/F Ratio will drop to mid 11:1 and gradually run richer as
RPM's increase ending at mid to high 10:1 A/F at redline.
The "Speed Limiter", which in reality just turns off boost control above 130mph,
is removed.

Bold added by me to highlight the STATED modifications to boost control. Personally I don't think that any off the shelf map will make as much power as a properly tuned one but in this case even without the switchable map issue the Cobb STX map is clearly not STX legal because their own documentation mentions changes to boost control.

When I went to have my car tuned at KTR, my STi put out about 30whp less than my friends identically equipped STi...before our tune. Franz looked at my vin, looked at the info in the stock ecu, and could tell my car had one of the late dealer reflashes to help cure the detonation that some STis suffered.

So question..is a dealer reflash considered stock..since SOA gave out the directive?

If I returned to stock, would i need to run the dealer reflash?

If i returned to stock, could i run any stock reflash, including the early production flash that made more power at the risk of detonation?

Chris H.
Anything from a Subaru dealer, as mandated in the TSBs or dealer memos is legal for the car.

An 'aftermarket map' from anywhere other than 'standard' ie: from the manufacturer isn't.

I'm not scaring noobs with this to force them into SM. Let me re-iterate.. I'm making them THINK. Their mod, while cool, could have repercussions with the current state of the rules.

Phil: I pointed that out last year sometime and the argument has always been 'who's going to see 130 at an auto-x?'. For those that want to ask that question... here's my answer: "Does it matter? You changed a boost control. Doesn't matter where it was. It's not allowed by the rules." Tomato/Tomato.

I know it's a map "within the SOA stock perameters"

Doesn't matter IMHO. Why? It's no longer a standard part. It's now a modified part. Even tho it's only software, the different flashes have part numbers and are considered different parts.

12.4 STANDARD PART
An item of standard or optional equipment that could have been ordered with the car, installed on the factory production line, and delivered through a dealer in the United States. Dealer-installed options or deletions (except as required by factory directives), no matter how common or what their origin, are not included in this definition. This definition does not allow the updating or backdating of parts.

That MAP was not delivered by a dealer. That Map was developed by an aftermarket company.

--KC

One more point: Stock rules...

13.9 ELECTRICAL SYSTEM
A. The make of spark plugs, points, ignition coil and high tension
wires is unrestricted including spark plug wires having an in-line
capacitor.
B. On cars made prior to January 1, 1968, any ignition system using a
standard distributor without modification may be used.
C. Ignition settings may not be adjusted outside factory specifications.
D. No changes are permitted to electronic engine management systems
or their programming.

ANY map that's flashed that didn't come from the factory or dealer is covered in D.

What do you do the HUGE gaping hole in STX once the Scoobies all go to the new STU? Paripication locally and nationally is rather heavy in STX with WRX's in most places (sans the West Coast). Not much diversity (locally) in the class like there is in STS.

-Jeff

One more point... I've also proposed to make boost changes legal in ST like SP.. move all those running boosted cars up one class until you hit the plateau of STU.

ST would need a restructure within the next couple years with AST, BST and so on, IMHO, to make the unlimited boost work fairly.

--kC

What do you do the HUGE gaping hole in STX once the Scoobies all go to the new STU? Paripication locally and nationally is rather heavy in STX with WRX's in most places (sans the West Coast). Not much diversity (locally) in the class like there is in STS.

-Jeff
Haven't figured that one out yet. :) Working on it.

My opinion is that switchable maps should not be allowed as a means of "classing down" ECU performance.

I think the easiest and best path would be to allow unlimited ECU work in ST and SP, none whatsoever in stock, and re-class cars accordingly.

I would much rather lose than win by cheating, but it really gets irritating when I find myself running against drivers who don't even know they're cheating.

One downside to all of this is that there will inevitably be an "arms race" dominated by those who are willing to risk their motors to win. That's unfortunate for me, because one of the reasons I entered SP was to preserve the car. I guess this just comes along with running a turboed car above stock.

I'm not scaring noobs with this to force them into SM. Let me re-iterate.. I'm making them THINK. Their mod, while cool, could have repercussions with the current state of the rules.
--KC

I may be the oddball, but I got interested, competed, then started to visit motorsports forums. For instance, a CAI may be easily removed to be competitively classed, but most that have gone there w/ EM will not go to the dealer to get reflashed every time they want to do the local AX. Hard to police and "close enough" )))) if you are a noob, you shouldn't be taking many trophies away from the top spots either.- different on a competitive national level, I agree. Way too hard to police, the rules should embrace it so everyone in stock could do it.

All I want to comment on is the "uber" stock map. It IS legal in any class to pull any ECUs from any same year model car and use those. An 02 WRX could use any other stock 02 WRX ECU, even if it came with different mapping from the factory behind the scenes.

-Tom

[QUOTE=PhilC] Cobb's STX map isn't STX legal.QUOTE]

I was under the impression that the speed limiter removal was added through the later revisions.

I run the 1st version available and never botherd updating my maps or accessport, mainly for fear of ruining a good thing.

But now you've piqued my curiosity, and I'm gonna call Cobb.

EDIT: According to Cobb the original V.1.02 stx map did not include alot of the CEL deletes or the speed limiter removal.

Am I still illegal?

All I want to comment on is the "uber" stock map. It IS legal in any class to pull any ECUs from any same year model car and use those. An 02 WRX could use any other stock 02 WRX ECU, even if it came with different mapping from the factory behind the scenes.

-Tom
Yep. That's legal. But once that ECU gets any different maps other than from SOA/dealer.. it's no longer stock.

--kC

I cant imagine a WRX, even with boost changes, could be competitve in STU.

What kind of ST class can you come up with that falls between X and U? And what else would fall in that class with the WRX?

And what else would fall in that class with the WRX?The M3's and RX8's that would no longer be able to stay with STi's and Evo's?

I cant imagine a WRX, even with boost changes, could be competitve in STU.

What kind of ST class can you come up with that falls between X and U? And what else would fall in that class with the WRX?
Imagine a 2.5L WRX with boost changes. Ie: Next year.

Auto-x isn't much about power as it is to handling. Handling is more important that power in auto-x. A combination of both is a fast car. Less power isn't necessarily a bad thing.

But in STU when both the STi and the new 2.5L WRX are be limited to 245s all around... they can only handle so much power. I wouldn't be surprised if a 5sp WRX is a better car with the 245s with about the same low end grunt as an STi, but less shifting and maybe lighter weight to boot. ;) THink about it.. they're both limited to 245s... without grip they can be almost equal. ;)

--kC

I cant imagine a WRX, even with boost changes, could be competitve in STU.

What kind of ST class can you come up with that falls between X and U? And what else would fall in that class with the WRX?
I'm thinking along those same lines as well. An extra 20ish hp isn't going to suddenly make a WRX competitive when the biggest advantage of the STi is in the better lower end, shorter gearing, LSDs everywhere, and better power split on the center diff.

Because honestly, that's about all one can get extra out of a WRX when monkeying with boost. It certainly won't make up for fundamental drivetrain differences.

Not that I have a solution, just agreeing with you. :)

-Biggly

edit: Below is the dyno of my car with and without boost mods. A whopping 9hp and 17tq difference.

KC: You bring up a good point about the 2.5L WRX. Do you think that the old and new WRX will get lumped together in a class or that they'll fall into different classes due to engine displacement rules? :)

http://www.tomhoppe.com/misc%20pics/stx-sm.jpg

Imagine a 2.5L WRX with boost changes. Ie: Next year.

Auto-x isn't much about power as it is to handling. Handling is more important that power in auto-x. A combination of both is a fast car. Less power isn't necessarily a bad thing.

But in STU when both the STi and the new 2.5L WRX are be limited to 245s all around... they can only handle so much power. I wouldn't be surprised if a 5sp WRX is a better car with the 245s with about the same low end grunt as an STi, but less shifting and maybe lighter weight to boot. ;) THink about it.. they're both limited to 245s... without grip they can be almost equal. ;)

--kC
um.. yea... as soon as the WRX owners slap on a front LSD, and a dynamic center diff, they will definitely have a chance! :D

I would love to see the WRX TR in STU, especially if it is lighter ;) Lightness would be a greater weapon in the AWD wars.

- dow

One thing you boys are forgetting in allowing the boost unlimited WRX in STU. How are you going to keep the STi boost LIMITED then? ;)

STi with unlimited boost > WRX with unlimited boost

-Tom

One thing you boys are forgetting in allowing the boost unlimited WRX in STU. How are you going to keep the STi boost LIMITED then? ;)

STi with unlimited boost > WRX with unlimited boost

-Tom
On 245s? :lol:

On 245s? :lol:
On donut spares too.

Keif - I can take a stock STi on stock 225s, and beat an STX WRX by close to a second.

-Tom

Thats cause you cheat! :banana:

Well yea, of course.

[QUOTE=PhilC] Cobb's STX map isn't STX legal.QUOTE]

I was under the impression that the speed limiter removal was added through the later revisions.

I run the 1st version available and never botherd updating my maps or accessport, mainly for fear of ruining a good thing.

But now you've piqued my curiosity, and I'm gonna call Cobb.

EDIT: According to Cobb the original V.1.02 stx map did not include alot of the CEL deletes or the speed limiter removal.

Am I still illegal?

Greg, Cobb's information on what changed during the revisions isn't very well written but it seems that the STX map didn't lose the speed limiter until version 1.15 so versions earlier than that might be legal. At a local level I wouldn't worry about it at all, Jen and I won't care and I doubt Billy and Jason will either.

I know everyone here is sticklers for the whole "letter of the law" thing, but how can changes to the boost map that only come in to play over 130 mph have any effect whatsoever on an auto-x course?

I can understand the whole "stock is stock" argument about making all re-flashes illegal in stock, but worrying about whether a re-flash has a speed limiter or not seems to be really nit-picking when it's not going to matter one bit on-course.

Well people like to exclude them as they are using something from Cobb so they must also suck?

-Tom

One more point... I've also proposed to make boost changes legal in ST like SP.. move all those running boosted cars up one class until you hit the plateau of STU.

ST would need a restructure within the next couple years with AST, BST and so on, IMHO, to make the unlimited boost work fairly.

--kC

Personally, I'd rather see ST go the other way, to disallow all ECU changes, before allowing unlimited boost.

If cars can run their unlimited boost & full ECU's in SP, then there's no need to allow it for ST.

A good tune is more expensive than a set of race tires.

On donut spares too.

Keif - I can take a stock STi on stock 225s, and beat an STX WRX by close to a second.

-Tom
I'd say that depends on the course.

Our last autox, STis had to shift to third 4 times. STX WRX's were able to stay in second the whole time.

I know everyone here is sticklers for the whole "letter of the law" thing, but how can changes to the boost map that only come in to play over 130 mph have any effect whatsoever on an auto-x course?

I can understand the whole "stock is stock" argument about making all re-flashes illegal in stock, but worrying about whether a re-flash has a speed limiter or not seems to be really nit-picking when it's not going to matter one bit on-course.


See the problem is that Cobb tells you flat out that they have changed at least one boost parameter, since that shows that they don't understand the rules we can no longer trust that they didn't change other parameters. This isn't an abmiguous rule here, the Cobb map tells you flat out that they changed a parameter the rules say you can't. Doesn't matter if it's at autocross speeds or not and I don't think that's nit-picking at all. Rules are rules and I personally think that if you want to compete even on the local level you should follow them. Plan and do mods to the class or put yourself in the class your mods demand.

And this is why I say it's not legal:
Cobb's 'stock' maps are made from various samples from different cars and taking the best values of all of them to make the 'uber' stock map. That's no longer stock because you can't get that map from SOA. And ECU programs are not allowed to be changed... at all. So the Cobb 'Stock' map is really a 'changed' map from the way your car came from the factory.

IMHO, unless it was re-flashed by SOA back to the stock maps provided by SOA, that chip is no longer stock and should never be allowed back into stock class unless replaced by a chip that was never modified.

--kC

I think it's worth noting the distinction between the AccessPort's "stock mode" and the actual "revert to stock" option.

When a user reflashes an ECU with an AccessPort for the first time, the AccessPort becomes "married" to that ECU. During the marrying process, the AccessPort copies and stores the existing ECU map from the (probably stock) ECU. After this initial reflash, the user may perform more reflashes including a base map switch to a "stock mode" map. That map is a Cobb-created approximation of a stock Subaru-created ECU map. Cobb has stated that it would fail a checksum check if Subaru would check (they apparently don't), and that makes sense.

Choosing the AccessPort's "revert to stock" option is different, however. This option performs an ECU reflash, but it replaces the current map stored in the ECU with the one the AccessPort copied during the marrying process. Assuming the ECU was stock when the marrying occurred, the ECU is back to the correct Subaru-created stock map.

I agree with your assertion that the "stock mode" map is not technically legal. I believe a car that has been "reverted to stock" is legal, however.

Well now that I know my STX map is technically illegal for the 130mph thing.........I'll be sure to have the tuner who I'm trying to set up an appointment with makes me a custom Protune STX map that eliminates ALL boost mods. That should make it legal and I'm sure I'll have more power in the end. Others without the option, get the older map without that boost mod if it exists. Locally, I think asking your competitors if they have a problem with it, would get you a good chuckle........."I have a boost mod at 130mph, the track is looking fast today, will you have an issue?" ;)

The "stock map" issue makes sense. I would say that if a person "unmarries" the Access Port from his car, that is a complete removal, I would find that acceptable as returning it to stock. Since only the AP you installed on your car can work with it and no others, I would assume it contains the original "map" and unmarrying it would return your factory values. Clarification would be needed for the sticklers. edit: Noted in above post.

And on a side note, most people know that there isn't many engine mods "worthwhile" to do for an STX car besides getting a TBE to rid 2 of the 3 cats. And if you have an 04/05 WRX, you should also be aware that EM is highly recommended in order for the car to run safely. One of them being OL/CL fueling issues that can make the car run dangerously lean. Most of the 02/03's can get away without having it. Killing all EM in STX would make the class not worthwhile for many. I've found it very fustrating to balance competitively classing my WRX with desired mods for the street as many others I'm sure. I lasted my first season in "street tire" DS before I couldn't stand the "stockness" any more.

And on a side note, most people know that there isn't many engine mods "worthwhile" to do for an STX car besides getting a TBE to rid 2 of the 3 cats.

I'll be nice and say that the people who "know" that are leaving a heck of a lot of power, and not just peak but usable power, on the table.

It will be interesting to see how the 2.5 WRX changes things (or doesn't)- I'm sure they won't want to be "lumped" in w/ the STi's/EVO's- although I suspect neither did the SRT's :)

It "seems" that street tire classes are gaining in popularity- maybe we will see a A, B, C, D, E etc street class classification.

PhilC,

What I said is based on many other people's opinions who I have autox'ed with, along with the info I've come across in this forum. If you're interested in sharing info, I'll listen, if not, I guess I need to search harder. So you max out your mods turbo back.......you could add headers, but I read that takes away power down low and puts it on top(not what you'd want correct?), so that leaves EM(timing and fueling) and the intake which most say stock is good for 300+ hp, no? Not to mention the costs involved in buying the parts mentioned kills the "worthwile" part. What could be the other mod options that are STX legal? Inlet hose(waste), pulleys(a little helpful)? I'd say spend a couple hundred on some EVO shool events.........you can always be a better driver.

Choosing the AccessPort's "revert to stock" option is different, however. This option performs an ECU reflash, but it replaces the current map stored in the ECU with the one the AccessPort copied during the marrying process. Assuming the ECU was stock when the marrying occurred, the ECU is back to the correct Subaru-created stock map.
Incorrect. Trey has repeatedly stated that the current generation AccessPort does not copy the original map. Revert to stock reverts to a stock map that was pre-saved into the AccessPort before purchase. It may or may not be the same map as stock for that car. Older revision APs had revert to stock maps which did not necessarily even match the same year as the vehicle (ie '02 map on an '03).

I am sure an AP + Pro Tune costs more than one set of race tires. The cost relationship there will flip over in a season or three.. or less if you wind up being in a class where you can run different rims from stock.

A question and a comment...

Did I read the WRX is moving to STU? :confused:

With regards to reverting to stock or using stock maps, how is there any advantage gained? If it's a stock based map then any improvement (if it's a so called "uber map") in performance on a 30~60 second autocross is negligible. If someone wants to enjoy the added STREET performance of a stage 1 map on their DS prepped WRX, then run stock for competition, I don't see what the problem is since there is no performance gained.

I'm all for following the rules, but I think some of you elevating an issue that has no bearing on performance. Personally, if I was beat by someone who used a "reverted to stock" flash I wouldn't protest and I think it would be unsportsman like to do so, especially knowing their stock map didn't give them a performance edge. In fact, I think it would be a downright assinine move to do so. Just my 2 pennies though.

Did I read the WRX is moving to STU? :confused:
The '06 WRX will be in STU because it has a 2.5l engine. And some people here are proposing to allow boost changes in ST, and in return reclass the turbo cars. But that's just an idea, nothing official at all.

A question and a comment...

Did I read the WRX is moving to STU? :confused:

The '06 WRX has a 2.5L engine... which is too big for STX, so yes... the '06+ will be in STU and not STX.

With regards to reverting to stock or using stock maps, how is there any advantage gained? If it's a stock based map then any improvement (if it's a so called "uber map") in performance on a 30~60 second autocross is negligible. If someone wants to enjoy the added STREET performance of a stage 1 map on their DS prepped WRX, then run stock for competition, I don't see what the problem is since there is no performance gained.

That matters not one bit to national competitiors when races are lost by .001 seconds. Look at it this way... that UBER stock map is the best of everything in a map and never, ever came from Subaru, it's a hodgepodge of various maps that Subaru has produced, and it comes from an aftermarket vendor. The rules simply do not allow it.

At that... can you positively say it has no performance gains? If it allows timing to be up a hair, or boost to come on 100rpm sooner than most others, that certainly is not 'negligible'... because that COULD be that .001 seconds on a course.

I'm all for following the rules, but I think some of you elevating an issue that has no bearing on performance. Personally, if I was beat by someone who used a "reverted to stock" flash I wouldn't protest and I think it would be unsportsman like to do so, especially knowing their stock map didn't give them a performance edge. In fact, I think it would be a downright assinine move to do so. Just my 2 pennies though.

If you're for the rules, then you'd understand them a little better. No where in stock rules does it mention you can use a non-standard stock map. If you could, that means everyone in stock in a WRX on a national level woudl have to have the COBB map to have the best of everything... and there are people out there that money is no object when it comes to winning.

Again... it's not the stock map that came with the car. It's a map that was 'developed' by Cobb to have the best of everything in a 'stock' map. It is the BEST of everything and yes... that clearly IS a performance advantage in stock class.... becuase it's not a standard map from Subaru. (Look up the definition of "standard" I posted earlier.)

--kC

My question regarding stock ECU's in stock classes is how is it policed and do protests come up a lot regarding it? Does the question of any car's ECU being remapped/programmed come up a lot in the stock classes? As many cars, not just Subarus benefit from a more aggressive tune in stock form. I have not been to nationals or a national tour event, so I have not seen or heard of it coming up.

My question regarding stock ECU's in stock classes is how is it policed and do protests come up a lot regarding it? Does the question of any car's ECU being remapped/programmed come up a lot in the stock classes? As many cars, not just Subarus benefit from a more aggressive tune in stock form. I have not been to nationals or a national tour event, so I have not seen or heard of it coming up.
It came up in another thread a discussion regarding switching 'back' to the stock map for stock class auto-x.

Can a switchable map be found? Yes it can. Has it been brought up on a protest? Not yet.

--kC

Can a switchable map be found? Yes it can. Has it been brought up on a protest? Not yet.

--kC


Interesting that it has never been brought up in a protest.

Interesting that it has never been brought up in a protest.
It has never needed to be.

-Tom

It has never needed to be.

-Tom
Right. Number of WRXs at 2004 Nationals in DS = 0.

--kC

Right. Number of WRXs at 2004 Nationals in DS = 0.

--kC


What about STi's in AS at nationals or on national tour. And I was not just singling out Subarus as many other cars can benefit from a remapped ECU in stock class.

I am sure an AP + Pro Tune costs more than one set of race tires Most certainly. But if you already got them, a used AP is $500. A highly reputable tuner here in the Chicago area will Protune at $100 an hour and said it would be about 2-2.5 hours for a Stage 2 and Stage 2 STX map to be made. So $800 tops. As I stated earlier, getting a a catless uppipe and a single cat downpipe, which almost every Suby owner does in STX, will make some sort of EM necessary to run safe for the 04/05's and of course would benefit the older models. The AP benefit in my case is for the mostly for the street by running the appropriate boost modded map. It's a nice power gain and simple to install. As a stand alone mod running an STX legal map, there would certainly be other things to address in the suspension department that would help more in autox. And if your going into SM, it'd definately be worth the unlimited map tuning you could do.

Again... it's not the stock map that came with the car. It's a map that was 'developed' by Cobb to have the best of everything in a 'stock' map. It is the BEST of everything and yes... that clearly IS a performance advantage in stock class.... becuase it's not a standard map from Subaru. (Look up the definition of "standard" I posted earlier.)


Where do you get this information from? I'm just curious if you know something about my mapping I do not. Let me know exactly what year model Subaru you are talking about and how we have modified the STOCK map to be something other than stock?

For the STX maps, I'll happily release maps that retain the boost speed limiter. Basically what they does on the WRX is turn off the boost control solenoid above 130mph.

And if people know so much about the switchable maps, how come they can't figure out what tables we are changing and realize the boost tables are stock???

Sounds like a witch hunt to me.... I'm happy to provide any accurate TECHNICAL info about the data we use.

Regards,
Trey @ COBB

Trey, it's not a matter of the boost tables with this one. THat's a whole 'nother issue. ;)

Can you read the exact code from the ECU and put it back exactly the way it was as delivered in that car, keeping in mind that code probably did have changed in ECUs every year? (One of the things was the big '02 re-flash)

Yes or no?

Are your maps a combination from various models over the course of a couple model years (A little from '02 and a little from '03)?

Yes or no?

If someone installed the STX map, then reverted to stock.. is that 'stock map' the exact same software, maps, curves that was delivered on that car when the user bought it or had it re-flashed by an authorized SOA dealership?

Yes or no.

I'm not singling you out on this. If any tuner comes along and claims they use the stock maps from the factory (proprietary software?) people are going to question it.

It has also been said that you (Cobb) has said that it would fail a checksum from SOA. Why is that?

Educate us. Please. I'm serious with that. Not trying to be a smart-ass at all. (Spoken word would sound like pleading.... not sarcasm) :)

It's obvious some of us aren't getting what you're claiming is your 'stock map' is exactly the same map that their car came with, and if they should run an STX map, then revert to stock, it would be exactly the same map that came delivered in their car.

--kC

For the STX maps, I'll happily release maps that retain the boost speed limiter. Basically what they does on the WRX is turn off the boost control solenoid above 130mph.

Regards,
Trey @ COBB

^^^
I think that would be best for everyone serious about competing in STX.

But at this point how would you know if they're really using it. :rolleyes:

Cheers

^^^
I think that would be best for everyone serious about competing in STX.

But at this point how would you know if they're really using it. :rolleyes:

Cheers

agreed, put that one to bed. I don't know if the STX to stock would be a issue, but the stage 1 to stock would be in the case of Stock classes.

Can you read the exact code from the ECU and put it back exactly the way it was as delivered in that car, keeping in mind that code probably did have changed in ECUs every year? (One of the things was the big '02 re-flash)

The AccessPORT stores a valid stock ROM image for that year model. In the example you give for the 2002 WRX, the ROM image from ECU part number 22611AF424 is currently used. It is 100% original to Subaru with no bits changed.

Are your maps a combination from various models over the course of a couple model years (A little from '02 and a little from '03)?

No.

If someone installed the STX map, then reverted to stock.. is that 'stock map' the exact same software, maps, curves that was delivered on that car when the user bought it or had it re-flashed by an authorized SOA dealership?

Potentially yes, potentially no. We use valid and complete Subaru ROMs in the Revert to Stock mode. So if a 2002 WRX originally had a 22611AF421 ECU in his vehicle (which Subaru reflashed with the 22611AF423/4 to fix various issues) then they would be updated to the 22611AF424 when reverting to stock using the AccessPORT. This, to my understanding is still legal according to STX rules.


I'm not singling you out on this. If any tuner comes along and claims they use the stock maps from the factory (proprietary software?) people are going to question it.

Why? How is this different from basically any other handheld programmer made available for other vehicles (notably domestics)?

Honestly, not to single you out, but I think its a situation of people not knowing how the stock ECU actually works and/or how the AccessPORT or reflash technology works that are making blanket assumptions. Based on your comments here and in the past I tend to think you believe reflashes are based on from-scratch re-writes of the entire engine management code which is simply not the case.

It has also been said that you (Cobb) has said that it would fail a checksum from SOA. Why is that?

It is true if you've married the AP to your ECU, the data on the ECU is different thus the checksum will be different. Even if you're using a STOCK BASE MAP, the checksum will be off because we also store things on the ECU like serial numbers and our unique program code which allows for the Realtime map switching. However, when using the STOCK BASE MAP, all of the lookup table data and program code that runs the engine is stock. All that is on the ECU not original to Subaru is a AP serial number and some program code that does not effect engine running conditions or parameters.

To the point you guys are discussing, it also seems as if you should require the SCCA to mandate a controlled, sealed ECU distribution program. At every National or Divisional level event the organizers should have on-hand sealed stock ECUs and force each entrant in those classes to use only that ECU for the event. Otherwise, all your solving with removing Switchable ECU map capability is moving those that are willing to cheat out of one product but right into another. So, unless you own stock in Techtom or EcuTek, you're not really going to be gaining anything from what I can see. Those that want to cheat will... regardless of the class or the rules. Heck, if we wanted to we could simply modify the checksum routine so it always spits out a valid stock checksum when requested...then how would you tell?

Cheers,
Trey @ COBB

I guess that ends the uber map discussion. Given what Trey said, how can anyone be against someone switching back to stock for autox? As he said, it's the same exact map issued to your model of ECU, and if a Subaru dealer upgraded yours, it will use that same map. Seems pretty legitimate to me and makes this argument look like petty nitpicking.

Trey - can you post an update in this thread when the new STX map is released? Or even a top-level thread in the forum :)

Thankye
john