20G Vs 18G on a ej205 [Archive]

View Full Version : 20G Vs 18G on a ej205

03MBP

11-25-2005, 10:37 AM

I've been torn between the two turbos, on pump gas on a stage 4 ej205 which would be better to reach the low 12 second zone in? I know bigger is better when trying to make more power but I have seen the 18g's holding their own with the 20g's on the smaller 2.0 ej205's...would I really see a big difference on pump gas between the two? Is the extra lag with the 20g worth it?

J-Rex2004

11-25-2005, 11:04 AM

So typing in 18G and searching, then typing 20G and searching are too hard. Way to show a good example to the new guys.

mikaust: EJ205, FP18G, 12.19 @ 117.9X, GD

20G pump
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b130/andrewp724/Dyno316.jpg

18G pump/race
Really enjoyed a tuning day at PDX today (www.pdxtuning.com (http://www.pdxtuning.com/)). Thanks, Jarrad, for setting this up. Mick and Tim are awesome tuners, as everyone who's ever worked with them knows. They gave me four maps (plus a de-tuned pump backup)... here's the story on the Mustang. I haven't seen the files yet, but Tim told me that without water injection the turbo was pushing ~19 lbs. The peak with water was 22 ending up at 20, with A/F of 11.7.

HP / TQ
301 / 263 ... pump* without WI
313 / 274 ... pump* with WI
323 / 277 ... Torco added with WI
340 / 297 ... 104 octane without WI

*92 octane

I had told them I wasn't after crazy numbers... I just wanted optimal performance from a tune I could really use. Then in the last session as the torque figures started to climb on race -- 294, 296, 297 -- there I was, greedy for three more ft. lbs. "Is there any way we could hit 300?" There wasn't. Of course, if I plan on seeing 297 very often, I should start "saving up for the tranny," as I was reminded.

Tim and Mick followed with a little spin down the road, the UTEC plugged into their laptop. They each came to similar, though not identical conclusions, calling out to me on their return. Tim told me, "It's fast." Mick: "It's fawst."

They say it's the fastest 2.0L PDX has ever tuned, including their own cars. Mick's predicting a 12.5.

Here's the power set-up. Kudos and thanks for the VE to World One Performance in Seattle (www.worldoneperformance.com (http://www.worldoneperformance.com/)): to Alex, who did most of these bolt-ons, and to World One's owner, Garret, who played a major role in the path design of this rex's upgrade. Many thanks to Matrix Integrated (www.matrixintegrated.com (http://www.matrixintegrated.com/)), especially Dustin who did a fantastic job on the Aquamist / AVC-R install, giving his all (including some sleep). And special thanks to Richard Lamb of Aquamist (www.aquamist.co.uk (http://www.aquamist.co.uk/)) for his technical support and extraordinary interest in this project.

Perrin Shorty intake with K&N filter
Perrin turbo inlet hose
FP18g
APEXi AVC-R
TXS FMIC / BOV
Seibon reverse hood scoop (yes, power)
Aquamist 2d with 30cc accumulator
TXS UTEC
Walbro 342
Perrin modded stock injectors
NGK iridium #7s
Perrin crank pulley
GReddy header
Perrin up
Helix down
GReddy EVO2

Did I mention that Mick and Tim are awesome tuners? Have I got some smooth graphs to show you when I get the files. They're exceptional guys, too, taking time out of their Saturdays -- you know, the typical weekend stuff of autocrossing and building beast-engines -- to help me after Friday's installation ran late. Mick even gave me a part from his home shop when we discovered that it was missing (he has a great dog). But even though they made sacrifices to spend a big part of their day with me, I got the distinct feeling that they'd rather be no where else but there, bringing out the best from what they referred to as "a well sorted out car," and helping a fellow enthusiast enjoy the most from his ride. Thank you, guys.

03MBP

11-25-2005, 11:14 AM

Uhm...I did search, which is where I drew my conclusion that the 20G 1/4 times I've been seeing aren't that great. On a 2.5 they are going low 12's but on the 2.0 I'm not seeing much...sorry I let down all the noobs, someone should ban me now.

And iirc, mikaust was on c16 on the 12.1 pass...way to set a good example by posting INCORRECT info.

Paul

11-25-2005, 11:25 AM

iirc mikaust had the greddy 18g with the 8cm housing

J-Rex2004

11-25-2005, 11:44 AM

does it really matter if he was on race...no, I would bet he would still pull 12's on pump with a 12.19.

mikaust

11-25-2005, 12:32 PM

ran a 12.4 @113 on pump 18g 8cm housing. Ran the 12.1 on c-16 both with high 1.8 60 ft's. the green ran a best of 11.5 @123. The red we will know tomorrow but all indications point to a 50 shot to get this to spool. Any one who subjects their car to track abuse and uses pump gas is living proof that people screwed animals. That's just my humble opinion.

Blackpantherwrx

11-25-2005, 01:12 PM

i thinkg the greddy 18g is the best turbo for the 2.0 thats just my o2.

mikaust

11-25-2005, 01:29 PM

The Forced Performance 18g with the 8 cm housing was my favorite turbo so far. I never had a chance to run it on my ej207. I may change back to it eventually.

sprx19

11-25-2005, 01:34 PM

The 18g gives you way more power than stock with similar spool. The 20g with a TDO6 wheel is going to give you a noticeable difference in power over the 18g. An 18g with a 8cm housing might be a different story. I would get the 20g.

Paul

11-25-2005, 02:03 PM

i would go with the greddy

03MBP

11-25-2005, 04:10 PM

does it really matter if he was on race...no, I would bet he would still pull 12's on pump with a 12.19.

That wasn't my question, I'm looking to run low 12's on straight pump gas. People go mid 12's on a vf22 which I am currently running.

Theres a few people making good power on the 20g on a ej205 but I haven't seen track passes from them, seems everyone is stuck in the mid 12 range on pump gas.

testes1010

11-25-2005, 04:42 PM

I put down 326whp/292wtq @ ~21psi(93 pump + 50/50 meth/water injection) on P&L's dynojet in Chicago(tuned by Jorge :devil: ) very flat torque shelf, linear power all the way to redline...

BlackSnake put down similar numbers w/ an 18G on 100octane & an FMIC...but my setup reaches full torque 500-750rpm sooner

299.9whp/274wtq @ ~18psi IIRC (93 pump, no meth)...

I don't drag race often, so I'm no help there...

sorry for the ****ty pic,
http://www.wrxfanatics.com/uploads/post-24-1132442343.jpg

mods that matter:
- TurboXS UTEC (custom tuned by Jorge @ P&L Motorsports)
- TurboXS Hyperflow TMIC
- TurboXS Magnaflow Catless Turboback Exhaust
- BPM XVR crossover pipe with port-matched & ceramic coated stock exhaust manifold, services supplied though Crucial Racing
- Crucial Uppipe
- Crucial 160deg T-stat
- Ultimate Racing 785cc/min Cylinder Flow Matched Injectors
- Deadbolt Zilla TD05H-20G (ceramic coated)
- CoolingMist 150PSI Alky Injection (UTEC activated)
- GMC Syclone Boost Solenoid
- Perrin Turbo Inlet Hose
- Walbro Fuel Pump 255lph
- XS Engineering CAI
- Mr. Josh's Lightened Crank Pulley
- APS DualVent BPV
- DIY Stainless Steel Turbo/Downpipe Heatshield

PeteDucati

11-25-2005, 04:43 PM

Wouldn't an EWG venting to the atmosphere negate the need for the 8cm housing while increasing whp?

Someone has finally run an 11.96 (STi) with a DB 20g, although it was using Methanol injection. I don't have much faith in people's driving ability - people like Mikaust and Dug-e-fresh are good indicators of what turbos are capable of.

mikaust

11-25-2005, 04:53 PM

SSFWRX

11-25-2005, 05:23 PM

Wouldn't an EWG venting to the atmosphere negate the need for the 8cm housing while increasing whp?

I dont see how an external wastegate could negate the benefit of the 8cm housing. The 8cm housing will help flow, and the external gate will enable the turbo to hold tons of boost all the way to redline and not taper as much as internal. Not to mention the inherit benfits of the externals ability to manage boost safely.

PeteDucati

11-25-2005, 05:31 PM

The EWG venting to the atmosphere reduces the amount of exhaust flowing through the exhaust housing and DP to the amount that's necessary to achieve your target boost. Any exhaust/pressure that's not needed to spin the turbo gets dumped out open header style. Gains of 20whp or more are common when switching to the EWG (according to some tuner that did a big write up around here).

In theory you should be able to run the td05h hotside with a 44mm WG and flow an ass load more up top since all of the "extra" exhaust is dumped before it reaches the housing.

SSFWRX

11-25-2005, 06:18 PM

In theory you should be able to run the td05h hotside with a 44mm WG and flow an ass load more up top since all of the "extra" exhaust is dumped before it reaches the housing.

I ran the 06H 7cm hotside on my Green and SZ49 and both are externally gated. People die to get the 8cm housing. I understand what you're saying about the 8cm not being as pronounced when externally gated however I believe there are still quite a bit of benefits to running it.

Mikaust...were you internally or externally gated with the Greddy 18G, and did your boost taper at redline?

03MBP

11-25-2005, 07:06 PM

Schaf100 ran 12.6 on an untuned stage 4 (vf22) setup with an ra gearset. Straight 93.

Also, testes I've talked to you before about the 20g...you're the devils advocate, I really wanted one after speaking to you and vf22 wrx on clubwrx but I haven't seen 1/4 times for them really. I also read you had heatsoaking issues on wrxfanatics, hopefully my fmic could make a few more ponies up top.

gmanwrx

11-25-2005, 07:36 PM

12.6 with vf22 and in a auto trans........but really wanting the crawford cp-32 twin scroll..........

silentbob343

11-26-2005, 01:19 AM

Are you running mid 12's on the vf22? I have seen many a vf series run 13's and very few times run 12's on pump gas. Usually is seems a 50 shot comes into play. The next factor is the driver there are a handful of good drivers on the board and how many times have you seen someone post (including me) that they screwed their launch thus the run was flawed. To get to the low 12's on an ej205 and do time and time again you will most likely trash your tranny. The reason you have not seen any track passes from them is because they ran and sucked. The low 12's are a whole new ballgame.....really

Some tweaked WRXs from PR running very fast time and very modified. These aren't you avg 1/4 mile times and as one other NASIOC member said "That makes me question the laws of physics in PR." LOL, but still crazy fast VF numbers and I don't know what octan, but I'm sure a race gass of some kind. What did def do to his car to get those 11.3s@125 you and him were neck and neck at the 11.5 mark?

12.01 @115.4 WRX Sedan 2002 Silver
Modlist:
UTEC (Custom Tuned by Gadiel)
Header
Uppipe
Downpipe
Race Pipe
Cat Back
Blow Off
External Wastegate
VF39
Turbo XS dual stage boost controller
FMIC
injectors
255 Fuel Pump
17 "inch wheels BBS
Stock internals

12.33 @112.1 WRX Wagon 2004 Silver
Modlist:
UTEC (Custom Tuned by Gadiel)
Header
Uppipe
Downpipe
Race Pipe
Cat Back
Blow Off
External Wastegate
VF39
Hyper Ground
Hyper Voltage
Greddy Profec B boost controller
USDM STI TMIC
injectors
255 Fuel Pump
17 "inch wheels BBS
Stock internals

Paul

11-26-2005, 11:32 AM

iirc they were runing sz49

PeteDucati

11-26-2005, 01:30 PM

iirc they were runing sz49

C16 and PPG dogbox, too.

mikaust

11-26-2005, 05:45 PM

Some tweaked WRXs from PR running very fast time and very modified. These aren't you avg 1/4 mile times and as one other NASIOC member said "That makes me question the laws of physics in PR." LOL, but still crazy fast VF numbers and I don't know what octan, but I'm sure a race gass of some kind. What did def do to his car to get those 11.3s@125 you and him were neck and neck at the 11.5 mark?

Doug's car always has been a freak his combo of parts works perfectly and his driving skills are the best. The sz 49 is a great turbo and the green is a great turbo, but once you get to the red you need displacemnent or a shot.

We went to the track this morning and with stock re-92's full interior plus amps, spare, laptop and a full tool box ran high 11's
doug had the best run (he always does)
1.965 60ft
5.283 330 ft
7.851 1/8
@ 97.01
10.044 1000 ft
11.859 1/4 mile
125.01
We pulled a degree of timing and richened it a half a point. high 11's fuel from 6500 up so we decide to put the degree back in and lean it back out.
the car ran like we blew the motor so we left the track and headed back home to work on it. Did a compression check it had the same compression as when we put the motor in originally (2 years). I looked down at the remote UTEC switch and guess what it somehow got tripped to the valet position :lol: It is always something simple.

What made me feel good is the fact that I have run this car for 2 years with somewhat big turbos (green and red) and the motor had the compression as when i bought it. So thanks to Turboxs for the good tuning.

So its time for a shot just a 50 ;)

SW00P_G

11-29-2005, 08:13 PM

I think a 50 shot would be sweet. I also think if you had some badass cams it would make a huge difference also.

I'm getting antsy already waiting for my EJ207 block and EJ205 crazy heads. I have the green now and I don't think it's gonna do the trick. Time to go red!!

And IMO the green is the only way to go on the EJ205. Ask SPRX19 about it. His 04 Cobra felt the WRATH!! :)

I'd post vidz, but people on this board frown on street racing and whatnot.

SW00P_G

11-29-2005, 08:20 PM

disque71

11-29-2005, 09:06 PM

go rotated, gt30 or gt35

03MBP

11-29-2005, 11:24 PM

This thread got really out of shape, not looking to go rotated...I could get a engine for the cost of a rotated turbo kit. Also, people have run 12's on a stock turbo on pump gas (not alot, but it is possible), so I don't see negativity towards vf series turbos that usually put down an extra 20-30 hp over the stock unit.

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=516684

SW00P_G

11-30-2005, 08:55 AM

You said that you wanted to run consistent (well I took it as consistent) low 12's. A VF whatever ain't gonna do the trick. Your gonna need a 20g or a green for those kinda times.

Then you can spend a small fortune on the drivetrain like I did. :)

sprx19

11-30-2005, 11:06 AM

SW00P_G

11-30-2005, 11:21 AM

Yeah, the Suby was pulln' on the Cobra (w/pulley, exhaust, intake) pretty good that day. I was impressed. Damn I wanna build the Suby. I gotta resist that thought.

Just do the Cobra this year. Becuase I'm doing the Suby, then next year do your suby and I'll do my Cobra.

Paul

11-30-2005, 11:22 AM

can't you post the vid in off-topic?

SW00P_G

11-30-2005, 11:50 AM

eh, I knew that was gonna be a bad idea. :(

Paul

11-30-2005, 01:53 PM

sorry

SW00P_G

11-30-2005, 02:17 PM

It's okay, not the 1st time.

03MBP

11-30-2005, 05:36 PM

I know the vf isn't what I'm looking to go with, its the turbo I run right now...looking at going 20G but its going to cost a decent amount, just want to make sure I'm not wasting money when I would be better off with an 18G.

Paul

11-30-2005, 05:55 PM

Quack

11-30-2005, 06:49 PM

^^^both cars were tuned by Jorge

testes1010

11-30-2005, 08:17 PM

yes Jorge tuned both setups....

I'm not sure if Blacksnake is running a GM(or other non-stock BCS), I am...I did not state that I getting boost quicker because I don't know, but I am getting full torque sooner....

btw, Blacksnake is running CobbAP tuned by Jorge, to my UTEC tuned by Jorge....Jorge is a Pro at both...

Quack

11-30-2005, 08:22 PM

for some reason i think Blacksnake is running the OEM BC

SW00P_G

11-30-2005, 08:23 PM

I made 354whp on 93 with a 100% stock EJ205 FWIW.

I trapped ~113-114 in the 1/4

but ACT clutches don't like the 20g

Paul

11-30-2005, 08:29 PM

testes1010

11-30-2005, 08:42 PM

testes1010

11-30-2005, 08:43 PM

but ACT clutches don't like the 20g

neither do the SPEC STG2...

Paul

11-30-2005, 08:53 PM

Quack

11-30-2005, 08:56 PM

^ I would imagine I am getting full boost sooner due to the TMIC...but I am unaware of what boost Blacksnake is running and when he is reaching it....

I get ~21psi @ ~3500rpm...holds rock solid to redline...

i know early on it was 15psi, but he was having mechanical problems preventing him from making more boost.

i know that the target is/was 22psi on 100oct

subaman81

01-29-2006, 06:15 PM

I am seriously trying to buy either an TD05H or TD06H 18G, or a clipped TD05H 20G. My mods are as follows:
TXS FMIC
STi-Ra Gears (5spd)
STi Pinks (will need modded WRX injectors)
Walboro 255
TXS Utec
TXS recirculating BOV
Perrin Intake
Perrin Catless Downpipe
TXS Catless Uppipe
HKS Hi Power 3" catless Exhaust
Greddy EBC (switching to TXS MBC)
VF30 turbo
Currently I have been able to put down 12.8's at 106mph on 93pump, and 12.68@108mph on turbo blue race gas. I want to keep good track times but am more interested in a turbo that can put my trap speed in the 1teens (preferable mid to high teens). I also think it is important to know that I plan on upgrading cams next spring and that will help out with top end (which is why I am leaning toward an 18G unless someone with a similar setup can sway me on good boost response on a 20G :D ).

So how about everybody with an 18G and 20G post your trap speed for me (please :D ) I am interested in seeing what they are. Oh, and I dont care what the situations were when you made the trap(like low boost, or bad weather, or my girlfriend asked me to be safe...lolz...j/k) because we all know s**t happens on raceday. Lets get some more great info to other buyers.

Thanks a ton guys for the info thus far and look forward to the news.
SubaMan81

verc

01-29-2006, 06:55 PM

Currently I have been able to put down 12.8's at 106mph on 93pump, and 12.68@108mph on turbo blue race gas.

I just wanted to clarify, was the 12.68 tuned for the gas?

subaman81

01-29-2006, 08:51 PM

I just wanted to clarify, was the 12.68 tuned for the gas?

Yes good question. All of these times were run on a friends street tuning for pump and race gas.

Thanks,
SubaMan81

04blue-meanie

01-29-2006, 09:56 PM

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d82/IanWathen/112200620gexternal.jpg

td06 20g (deadbolt)
APS DR725
PE 800's
UTEC
TIAL 44mm EWG
Greddy profect B spec II
(supporting mods) pulley, up, turbo back, intake, ect

these are on pump, and 104 (very conservative on the 104, i need this motor to last until june)

i live in michigan and so i wont get to the track for a couple of months...

subaman81

01-30-2006, 12:14 AM

Sweet numbers. Keep up the posts and help me out with race and pump gas traps. Thanks a ton!

subaman81

01-30-2006, 07:14 PM

BUMP lets keep this thread alive! :banana:
:disco:

soon2bblackongold

01-30-2006, 07:57 PM