Just wondering who makes them. I've done quite a bit of digging and found only MRT(Noltec) and PDE make them. Are there any other companies? As I find it hard to believe that only two companies make a certain product.

Also, any thoughts on these two units? The PDE's look a little complicated to use, but who knows. Only thing I don't like about the MRT's is it looks like you have to "eye-ball" your adjustments because of how they are designed. Also, which ones have the most adjustment?

Any thoughts?

My thought would be to check the Suspension Forum, as this has been discussed repeatedly there.

And it's caster, not castor.

Pat Olsen
'97 Legacy 2.5GT sedan
With Race Comp Engineering C/C plates waiting for install

dang, pat got in before I had a chance :lol:

-Tom

These allow use of conventional springs , stock springs, pinks or prodrive. They lower the car 3/8 inch in front and are made of 7075 T6. Allows for -3.0 camber and targets the weekend autocrosser and track day user.

http://www.racecompengineering.com/images/clip_image002.jpg

Myles

Racecomp Engineering LLC.
GTWORX.com
410-730-7223

Thanks for the spelling lesson and for what basically equates to "do a search n00b"....it all makes much more sense now. :rolleyes:

goto_racing - Those look similar to the PDE plates. How do they work?

Myles - I like the plates, but I would like something with castEr adjustment

:lol:

There are two ways

MRT Plates - More adjustment and the plate can be cut and modified to give you even more adjustment

DMS/PDE - Less adjustment range, but they offer you a "set" adjustment where you aren't guessing at "how much do I have"

-Tom

:lol:

There are two ways

MRT Plates - More adjustment and the plate can be cut and modified to give you even more adjustment

DMS/PDE - Less adjustment range, but they offer you a "set" adjustment where you aren't guessing at "how much do I have"

-Tom

last I checked MRT == Noltec.;)

you also might check with ground control, but I am not sure what is available for the subaru...

Speaking of having a pimp ass set of camber/caster plates for sale :lol:

SloRice PM me

-Tom

yes, ground control makes some too.

Stole some pics from speedabsolute in the suspension forum

http://www.speedabsolute.com/images/NASIOC/GC/DSC01239.JPG
http://www.speedabsolute.com/images/NASIOC/GC/camber/DSC01339sm.JPG

-Tom

Omg, No Castor! But My Car Will Understeer Right Into A Wall!

The DMS is the PDE. Nice pieces, BTW.

These allow use of conventional springs , stock springs, pinks or prodrive. They lower the car 3/8 inch in front and are made of 7075 T6. Allows for -3.0 camber and targets the weekend autocrosser and track day user.

http://www.racecompengineering.com/images/clip_image002.jpg

Myles

Racecomp Engineering LLC.
GTWORX.com
410-730-7223
I've read great reviews of these. One of the locals has them. He installed them on opposite sides of the car, so the slot isn't purely lateral. With them switched you gain negative camber and caster at the same time. You can't adjust them independently as you could with combo plates, but its an option for less money.

-Brad

I've read great reviews of these. One of the locals has them. He installed them on opposite sides of the car, so the slot isn't purely lateral. With them switched you gain negative camber and caster at the same time. You can't adjust them independently as you could with combo plates, but its an option for less money.

-Brad
does that local happen to know what alignment numbers he can get with those plates maxed out when installed in that orientation? and for the record, those plates are definately not less money than noltecs. ;)

does that local happen to know what alignment numbers he can get with those plates maxed out when installed in that orientation? and for the record, those plates are definately not less money than noltecs. ;)

PM him and ask...SlideWRX I believe...Tom

Thanks for the spelling lesson and for what basically equates to "do a search n00b"....it all makes much more sense now. :rolleyes:

what? are you saying he was rude for not being an ass and coming out and saying "do a search noob now DIAF"? cause a lot of guys woould have just said that. :rolleyes:

there's a way that you can turn the tein camber plates to work both camber/caster adjustments...

let me find that link.. big sky had a detailed writeup about it at one point.

I guess the question is, does it promote a good castor vs. camber curve. Is there such thing as too much castor for the subies, and can you adjust the castor so much you have interference issues with tires?

I guess the question is, does it promote a good castor vs. camber curve. Is there such thing as too much castor for the subies, and can you adjust the castor so much you have interference issues with tires?

castEr noob! DIAF! :D

These allow use of conventional springs , stock springs, pinks or prodrive. They lower the car 3/8 inch in front and are made of 7075 T6. Allows for -3.0 camber and targets the weekend autocrosser and track day user.

http://www.racecompengineering.com/images/clip_image002.jpg

Myles

Racecomp Engineering LLC.
GTWORX.com
410-730-7223
Are these plates still 300 dollars for camber only adjustment?

- dow

Cusco camber plates redrilled at 45 degres (possible because they are a round plate).

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b193/blkwrxwag/DSCN0614.jpg

I guess the question is, does it promote a good castor vs. camber curve. Is there such thing as too much castor for the subies, and can you adjust the castor so much you have interference issues with tires?
The general consensus among the racer types that have experimented with castEr and camber is that adding positive caster is good, but adding negative camber is better. At the small turning angles we typically use in auto-x and open track events, the additional negative camber created by running a couple extra degress of positive castEr just isn't that much. You're much better off running stock caster and lots more negative camber.

With that said, I bought some Race Comp camber plates, and will be mounting them angled in my car (since the strut mount bolt pattern is oriented differently on my car than on a '02+ WRX). I don't have any desire to run the huge negative camber numbers that others run, so running some more positive caster and a couple degrees of negative camber is good enough for me.

For some of the better discussions of all this, look here http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=821252 and here http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=667681 and here http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=876384 .

...and can you adjust the castor so much you have interference issues with tires?
I don't follow you here. Where would you get interference issues from running positive caster?

Pat

Are these plates still 300 dollars for camber only adjustment? Isn't it more like $400? Nice pieces though.

www.racecompengineering.com
yes, $400

castEr noob! DIAF! :D

http://www.spryracing.com/images/PostedPics/NASIOCMembers/crystalhelix/diafcrystalhelix.JPG

It looks painful but it's really not. Hell, the older I get the less I can speel. ;)

^^^^you look drunk, Justin :lol: :lol:

:lol: :lol:

www.racecompengineering.com
yes, $400
Site wasnt working yesterday when I tried to check. 400.. oh.. that makes it better, but hey, if it does it for you... :shrug:

- dow

^^^^you look drunk, Justin :lol: :lol:

Oh so sad. Alas, I was sober. I am working on the mad tyte photoshop skillz.

All in all it does seem easier to gain caster this way and acheive slightly more camber with the lower bolts, than try to install offset bushings and ALK's. I would have to do a test and tune and check my tire temps to make sure I am not running to much camber with the added caster.

J

Site wasnt working yesterday when I tried to check. 400.. oh.. that makes it better, but hey, if it does it for you... :shrug:

- dow
When you're done designing your version that has both caster and camber adjustment, and you've track and auto-x tested it, please let us know how much it'll run us to get a set. I know a lot of us are waiting for you to work your suspension tuning magic.

Pat

Cusco camber plates redrilled at 45 degres (possible because they are a round plate).

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b193/blkwrxwag/DSCN0614.jpg

I was thinking. Have you put this on an alignment rack and what is the perspective castEr gain? And you've lost a little bit of camber, just wondering how much?

J

my contribution to this thread:

with my D2 coilovers (which have plates f/r, with the fronts set up to do camber/caster) maxed out* i have -2.5 camber, +5.0 caster.

* - there are two positions where the bolts can be set at. this is with the bolts at the wider setting, which limits the adjustment range somewhat, so more is theoretically possible. i was happy enough with -2.5/5.0.

I have the PDE camber/caster plates on my 05 STi, and LOVE THEM!!!!!!!!! They might look complicated, but trust me they are NOT! If installed one way (with the tab inward) you can adjust both camber and caster - but won't get as much camber. But then, on our STi's, we have some nice caster built-in from the factory anyway. Only the WRX needs help in that. Install with the tab outward, and it is camber only, and can get pretty wild with that.

Now for the BEST part of the PDE plates!!! Most camber plates are sliders, and if you adjust them other than the alignment shop did, you are just guessing at what you have (unless you have the equipment to measure acurately). And even if you place marks on the mount, you might still be off a wee bit when trying to go back to the original settings. With the PDE plate, all those so called "complicated" looking holes in the upper plate will now turn out to you to be so darn SIMPLE! I had my car aligned at -2 degrees negative and 0 toe with the bolt in the end of the middle row. Jack up the car, take out that middle bolt, loosen the 2 cover bolts, and push the shock in till you can put the bolt into the outer end hole, and you have EXACTLY 1 degree more of negative camber. Bang, you are done setting up for the AutoX! When done, jack up the car, loosen the 2 bolts, remove the 1 bolt, pull the strut to you until you can get the bolt in the middle end hole, and BANG, you are back to -2 again to go home. Now, if you want to play around with different settings, each hole is exactly .02 degrees adjustment either way. That is EXACTLY, no guessing like your typical camber plate. And the added bonus going to the last hole is toe out! Not sure what mine is at -3, but the car turns in like its on rails. Go back to -2, and I am at 0 toe again for the ride home.

And, . . . . . . . unlike other camber plates with bolts having to be torqued (sqeeze) to HOLD position, the PDE will still hold its location even if you forgot to tighten the bolts enough. The other plates could possibly slip, and you'll be out of alignment (and disaster if you never marked the needed spots and thus don't know where to set the shocks to).

So in a nutshell, get the PDE plates, you won't regret it. Even a n00b can work with them. Oh, and by the way, Ian at PDE got tired of the prices others were selling his plates for, so now only HE sells them, and they are just $259!

does that local happen to know what alignment numbers he can get with those plates maxed out when installed in that orientation?

Adam, you get an answer from that person? I've been contemplating these plates for awhile now as well... (when will it end!)

no not yet Doug, i got sidetracked and forgot to pm him.

im really glad to hear Ian brought the price of the pde plates down. when i bought mine i was lucky enogh to find them being sold from a private seller without ever being used for around $100 under the then current $425 price. ive since switched to noltecs race plates to get more caster at the huge expense of product quality. if i were to look at replacing plates agin i think i would look at what it would cost to have a set of custom made nonadjustable plates made that truly maxed out the camber and caster potential in the stock strut tower opening. ive heard of custom plates being made for around $200.

I have the PDE camber/caster plates on my 05 STi, and LOVE THEM!!!!!!!!! They might look complicated, but trust me they are NOT! If installed one way (with the tab inward) you can adjust both camber and caster - but won't get as much camber. But then, on our STi's, we have some nice caster built-in from the factory anyway. Only the WRX needs help in that. Install with the tab outward, and it is camber only, and can get pretty wild with that.

Now for the BEST part of the PDE plates!!! Most camber plates are sliders, and if you adjust them other than the alignment shop did, you are just guessing at what you have (unless you have the equipment to measure acurately). And even if you place marks on the mount, you might still be off a wee bit when trying to go back to the original settings. With the PDE plate, all those so called "complicated" looking holes in the upper plate will now turn out to you to be so darn SIMPLE! I had my car aligned at -2 degrees negative and 0 toe with the bolt in the end of the middle row. Jack up the car, take out that middle bolt, loosen the 2 cover bolts, and push the shock in till you can put the bolt into the outer end hole, and you have EXACTLY 1 degree more of negative camber. Bang, you are done setting up for the AutoX! When done, jack up the car, loosen the 2 bolts, remove the 1 bolt, pull the strut to you until you can get the bolt in the middle end hole, and BANG, you are back to -2 again to go home. Now, if you want to play around with different settings, each hole is exactly .02 degrees adjustment either way. That is EXACTLY, no guessing like your typical camber plate. And the added bonus going to the last hole is toe out! Not sure what mine is at -3, but the car turns in like its on rails. Go back to -2, and I am at 0 toe again for the ride home.

And, . . . . . . . unlike other camber plates with bolts having to be torqued (sqeeze) to HOLD position, the PDE will still hold its location even if you forgot to tighten the bolts enough. The other plates could possibly slip, and you'll be out of alignment (and disaster if you never marked the needed spots and thus don't know where to set the shocks to).

So in a nutshell, get the PDE plates, you won't regret it. Even a n00b can work with them. Oh, and by the way, Ian at PDE got tired of the prices others were selling his plates for, so now only HE sells them, and they are just $259!This is the exact problem I have been experiencing with the plates I have (sliders) and have since decided to go with the PDEs. Enough of this "guessing" stuff. I can't wait!

PS - z3coupe - I was one of the guys at dinner tonight after the autox.

This is the exact problem I have been experiencing with the plates I have (sliders) and have since decided to go with the PDEs. Enough of this "guessing" stuff. I can't wait!

PS - z3coupe - I was one of the guys at dinner tonight after the autox.Then if you were around when I set mine back to drive home with, you seen first hand how simple they are :)

By the way, just what time DID they seat you guys? I could not wait any longer, as I had some errands to run and also "24" season premire was on tonight! :devil:

I saw someone else who had the PDEs adjust theirs and all I can say is "sweet". I wish I had that sort of precision/accuracy with my sliders. :(

We finally sat down about 10-15min after you left. We didn't leave there until about 7:30pm.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b193/blkwrxwag/DSCN0614.jpg
I was thinking. Have you put this on an alignment rack and what is the perspective castEr gain? And you've lost a little bit of camber, just wondering how much?

J

This is how I did my cusco's. I took it one step further, marked the the shock tower opening, hole sawed and filed the camber plate. So the slidey dealy bottoms out against the shock tower. Cheap and effective. With them set like the picture show's it's -3.5 cambar & +6 castor.

I have mine set up to have 1/4" toe out when they're maxed out, which is where the hankooks like it, camber wise. And if I'm not feeling lazy at the end of an event I pull them back to zero out the toe. I'm usually teh lazy.

If I get a chance I'll post a pic later.

I was thinking. Have you put this on an alignment rack and what is the perspective castEr gain? And you've lost a little bit of camber, just wondering how much?

J

On my STI, I have a similar set of plates redrilled at 40 degrees (the ones in the picture are at 45 degrees). I also lengthened the slots. I was able to get -3.0 degrees of camber and 6 degrees of caster.

Stock caster is ~4.5 IIRC, how much do you need and how noticeable is 1.5 degrees? And how does it present itself while driving as I have never changed caster before?

J

Feels good - car has a very direct feel. I can't really compare to a stock setup, since my stock struts/springs were off the car before 500 miles!

Those specs are my race setup - I move them back to a more stock setting for daily driving.

I'm running +7.2degrees of caster on my STi and the first thing you notice is how "springy" the steering feels. The steering wheel really really wants to recenter itself at ALL times. That plus the added degrees of negative camber makes for a nervous ride on rutted freeways.

if i were to look at replacing plates agin i think i would look at what it would cost to have a set of custom made nonadjustable plates made that truly maxed out the camber and caster potential in the stock strut tower opening.The major problem with that idea: you don't always WANT to max out the camber. Depending on your tire choice, the surface, the course, etc, sometimes the best camber != max camber.

Also, if you DD the car as well, the adjustability is really nice, as it allows you to very easily dial out all of the toe and some of the camber after the event.

It's funny how this thread went from a "search noob" thread to actual discussion about the asked question. :lol:
I would agree that the PDE ones are the the nicest out there in terms of adjustment. I wish they would work with my coilovers :( Just remember as you change camber you change toe as well.

It's the offseason for most and we need something to talk about...

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y17/mccanixx/P1010002.jpg

Here's what I did to mine. You can find cusco's reasonably cheap. It probably took me about 2 hours by the time I was done. Pretty affective. Yes, it would be nice to be able to adjust them seperatly. But this allows me to spend money on other things.

The major problem with that idea: you don't always WANT to max out the camber. Depending on your tire choice, the surface, the course, etc, sometimes the best camber != max camber.

Also, if you DD the car as well, the adjustability is really nice, as it allows you to very easily dial out all of the toe and some of the camber after the event.
after having the pdes for a while i eventually maxed them out and went with the "set and forget" style of usage. for auto-x i havent found any condition where i didnt want them maxed out. if i did want to reduce camber the camber bolt on the strut can take care of that problem and i could still keep my caster. i run zero tow in the front and even with my daily driving on my auto-x alignment ive seen no excessive wear on the inside of the tires. i much prefer to show up to events and not have to mess with the car, plus daily driving is more spirited.

Here is my setup, 45 degree and extended slot. Still waiting for my coilovers to arrive.

http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/8263/dsc001989ej.jpg

http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/7443/dsc001994jg.jpg

wm07 - how much camber/caster do you see with them setup this way?

mccanixx - how much camber/caster do you see when the strut is bottomed out against the strut tower?

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y17/mccanixx/P1010002.jpg

Here's what I did to mine. You can find cusco's reasonably cheap. It probably took me about 2 hours by the time I was done. Pretty affective. Yes, it would be nice to be able to adjust them seperatly. But this allows me to spend money on other things.

It was up in the earlier post.


This is how I did my cusco's. I took it one step further, marked the the shock tower opening, hole sawed and filed the camber plate. So the slidey dealy bottoms out against the shock tower. Cheap and effective. With them set like the picture show's it's -3.5 cambar & +6 castor.

The ultimate question is, what would be the best angle to redrill/slot at to get the best camber/castEr curve.

^Model it, dude.

I think I'd rather want to know how much caster is too much and dial in the angle from there.

Justin

I get myself too involved with modeling, tinkering, and sinking my own cash into trying things out and I need to get a handle on it, lol. :D

I'm considering doing this myself, since I've got the Cusco plates.

Seems to me you'd be at maximum available caster and minimum available camber with the plate rotated to 45 degrees. Simple trig will tell you how much max camber can be had at 45 degrees, given that you know what can be had at 0 degrees. If the tabulated 45-degree camber is adequate, then you might as well rotate the plate. If not, it would be fairly easy to calculate the rotational angle at which there would be enough camber and drill for that angle. Of course you can also lengthen the slots as pictured above.

I'm not using all of the available slot distance to achieve my desired static camber, so I could obviously gain *some* caster without sacrificing camber.

In terms of settings on the STi with 710's, my guess is that I'll want about -3.0 camber and +6.0 caster.

Paul

wm07 - how much camber/caster do you see with them setup this way?

mccanixx - how much camber/caster do you see when the strut is bottomed out against the strut tower?


I will report back after I assembled my suspension this week.

The ultimate question is, what would be the best angle to redrill/slot at to get the best camber/castEr curve.

I think that would depend on the type of tire your running. R-compound or street, and the width. Wide r-compounds do not need as much camber.

If you look at mine, you'll see I picked a spot where if I went any further I'd start losing camber. I used the right on the left and the left on the right. With the plates off the car. I took an old aluminium street sign and marked the bolts, on the sign, by tapping it with a hammer. Drilled the sign so i had a template. Came to the conclusion the bolt holes needed to be rotated 3/4" from where they were. I pressed the old bolts out with a socket and vise, there splined just like a wheel stud. Found the appropriate bit, marked and drilled the plates. Pressed the studs back into there new holes. Put the plates back on the car and used a sharpie to mark the strut tower opening. I left it about a 1/16" away from the shock tower. I think I used an 1 1/2" or 1 1/4" hole saw, layed out and used a center punch and drilled the hole. Used a jig saw and a file to finish it off. I think I used a 1/4" drill for the allen head pinch bolts. Jig saw and file to finish off.

Reinstalled and marveld at my new found cambar and castor. :)

I use fairly narrow street tires, obviously STX.

Crystalhelix and myself are both on r-comps. He's in the 275 fashion (I think) and i'm in the 285 fashion.

I may end up using the Cusco's this way as it seems more precise than the Noltecs. Especially if it seems you can the needed amount of camber and caster out of these.

Crystalhelix and myself are both on r-comps. He's in the 275 fashion (I think) and i'm in the 285 fashion.

I may end up using the Cusco's this way as it seems more precise than the Noltecs. Especially if it seems you can the needed amount of camber and caster out of these.

Yep, I am 99% sure I am on 275's for next year. Also, what about radial slots on the perimeter so that the camber plates can be turn to adjust the caster and the camber can be changed using the given design. This allows you to adjust both while on the alignment rack insteat of being limited to the caster that you drilled "one set" of holes at. I have access to an endmill so I may try this.

Justin

I just wanted to add, I might be interested in making an addition adapter plate for independant caster with our current model. The trouble is the car would be raised about 3/16" hmmm.... also, you would need the DMS plates, the new part would not work with the PDE models. I also have a PU-95 piece, that replaces the stock bearing housing (aluminum solid piece) to reduce road noise through the chasis. This part will work with all other adjustment pieces, no mods needed.

So I went a little nuts, everything can be found here:
http://www.spryracing.com/FAQS/technical/suspension/camberplatemod/camberplatemod.html

borrowed some of your images guys, hope that's ok

the gist: I made charts..... :banana:

I guess from what it shows you can't go too wrong with a standard plate, but if you lengthed the slot you could have a ridiculous amound of caster...I am assuming 3.5 caster stock WRX (STi is 4.5 see my website for all charts). I think that's what mine was at my last alignment.

let me know what you think. ;)

http://www.spryracing.com/FAQS/technical/suspension/camberplatemod/cuscostandard_chart.JPG
http://www.spryracing.com/FAQS/technical/suspension/camberplatemod/cuscoenhanced_chart.JPG

Justin

double post, my bad....

It looks like if you want 3 degrees negative camber and 6 degrees caster and set and forget your best bet is to enhance the slot 0.5" and rotate the plate 50.5 degrees

(I did some plugging)

wow... nice work crystalhelix. kudos!

Caster is +3.5 for WRX's and early STI's I believe

I should really try and do the same thing with my plates ... I think I have the rear ones done already, will work on that this weekend.

Question though, what A-ARMS (front lateral links) were used ? WRX or STI ? Is there an anti lift kit on the WRX ones ?

No other mods ?
-mark

Good info crystal. Thanx :)

I have to agree with Mako though, can't find my paper work, but I also believe the imprezzas are ~+3.5 caster out of the gate.

Good info crystal. Thanx :)

I have to agree with Mako though, can't find my paper work, but I also believe the imprezzas are ~+3.5 caster out of the gate.

Fixed :D

I should really try and do the same thing with my plates ... I think I have the rear ones done already, will work on that this weekend.

Question though, what A-ARMS (front lateral links) were used ? WRX or STI ? Is there an anti lift kit on the WRX ones ?

No other mods ?
-mark

In my calculations I am assuming you have the stock front camber bolt set to -1 degrees per side. This is easily achievable (more is possible), and still allows you to make enough caster adjustment. I am also assuming that the "movement" arm for caster and camber rotate around the same point, which I think makes sense, but someone correct me if I am wrong.

Justin

btw. if anyone has Tein RA's, i made a few extra sets of camber/caster plates when i made mine. pm me if interested.

-Jason

Great work CH, Ive been meaning to run the numbers on these, but I couldnt figure out how to get some more accurate measurements and verify my calculations.

Does anyone know at what angle the slots are at when you switch the left and right ones? (Cusco..)

does that local happen to know what alignment numbers he can get with those plates maxed out when installed in that orientation? and for the record, those plates are definately not less money than noltecs. ;)

Sorry, I don't know the numbers. Others would also get a bit more than me with these plates, as I had to adapt them to work with Koni inserts. Long story short, I don't get the full travel of the slots. I haven't adjusted them much either, as they went in right after the auto-x season.

Tom

Caster is +3.5 for WRX's and early STI's I believe

that's true on the WRX, the '04 USDM STI came with +4.5 degrees (at least mine did)

My 2004 STi measured +4.1 caster from the factory (and was persuaded to have about -1.2 camber). With offset control arm bushings and the PDE camber plates in 45 degree position maxed out, I have +5.7 caster and -3.2 camber.

that's true on the WRX, the '04 USDM STI came with +4.5 degrees (at least mine did)

crap...I was right the first time...

I'll make 2 charts on my website...

J

Thanks for keeping a chart for the WRX's.

Thanks for keeping a chart for the WRX's.

Yeah, I just need to add the STi charts back on my site. I'll try to get them back up soon, lol.

Justin

OK STi charts and WRX charts...
http://www.spryracing.com/FAQS/technical/suspension/camberplatemod/camberplatemod.html

This should be an easy cheap performance adder to my camber plates, awesome.

J

okay, installed the suspensions today. I am able to get -4.1 camber using my Smart Camber gauge, not sure about the caster though. I am waiting for the springs to settled, then do a corner balance and I will find out the max caster by then. That will be some time in Feb.

I have cusco's and did the extended slot trick. Set them up for pure camber and I get -4.0 with them slammed all the way in. Basically more than I will ever need.

-Paul

ps: I am switching to PDE's to get repeatable adjustability.

wm ... you do know that you can measure caster with your Smart Camber gauge. You should have gotten a template that shows where to draw the angled lines to measure camber at, that with their supplied formula's give caster. If not, let me know and I'll give you that info and template.

I guess you guys like those SmartCamber gauge's. How accurate have you found them to be?

J

They're too accurate ... people get caught up with their tenth of a degree.

You first need to get it calibrated in three axis, front and back. You need to create a level world to work in. I used a six foot long steel 1.5" square "tube," sitting on equal height ratchet sockets placed where ones tires will be. You place the Smart Camber device on top of the steel, then using 1' X 1' vinyl floor tiles, you raise up the low end until the steel is level. Mark that spot on your garage floor, with a note on how many of the tiles it takes to make level. Easiest to do that for the front and rear tires contact points.

Or, you can measure the slope of the spots where you are going to measure EACH wheel and then add or subtract those reading from your camber reading.

I sold my Smart Camber tool and instead use a scientific calculator.

Using your 2' long shelf boards that you use for measuring toe, stand the board up next to the tire so that it touches the bottom edge of the tire, measure the distance in MM's from board edge to fat part of the upper part of the sidewall. Measure the heights from the ground to that upper measuring point. Divide the short distance by the long distance and apply Arctangent on your "advanced" calculator. Vola, Camber.

I've found I was always with in a couple of tenths of a degree of my Smart Camber tool reading.

Since the tires we tend to use are very stiff sidewalled, there is little "radial" tire bulge at the bottom of the tire to distort the result. If there is, you can help it by pumping up the tire.

Usually we are going for maximum camber anyway for AX with say 5 mm toe out. We then find our street setting by reducing camber until our toe is zero or perhaps a mm toe in (to compensate for tire wear). We mark that position on our camber plates. Doesn't really matter what that camber reading is ... we are more concerned with close to zero toe for the street. At the track you just want to be able to slam your camber plates to the max.

The camber tool or the measuring/arctangent method are more useful for making sure your camber is even side to side.

If I was buying a camber measuring tool, I would buy a bubble variety version. Close enough.

btw. oem toe specs are something like plus/minus 3 mm's ... so we tend to be much more accurate then "them."

Good writeup, sounds pretty involved, though much cheaper, I will have to try this out with my TI-89.

Justin

did anybody happen to take any pics of your modified plates before you put them on the car?

did anybody happen to take any pics of your modified plates before you put them on the car?

What are you looking to see? There will be 3 extra holes and longer slots.

It's a dirty job, but someone's got to mod it.....

I said slots.

sorry :D ,
Justin

a friend of mine has a set of tein plates that hes swapped to opposite sides of the car but if he relocates the mounting studs it will create a stud slot rather than a hole. the teins have a triangular mounting plate so hes trying to figure out how to make it work out because he cant just rotate them from their original location.

Grap, i am buying teins.

Find someone with Cusco plates and trade?

Are the tein flex front camber plates triangles?

J

i cant say ive seen them off the car but thats what he was telling me. we discussed taking them to a fab shop and having some aluminum welded on where needed.

i cant say ive seen them off the car but thats what he was telling me. we discussed taking them to a fab shop and having some aluminum welded on where needed.

It would be just as easy to make a new plate, and probably safer.

J

Here's a picture I found on nasioc of the Cusco plates someone modified.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v295/SloRice/CuscoFRCamberPlates.jpg

Yes, I believe I remember my Teins being triangular, not circular like the Cuscos.

It would be just as easy to make a new plate, and probably safer.

J


Here's a guy who did that, though the slot doesn't look to be extended as much as the Cuscos in the picture above.

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10641970#post10641970

Pictures of his product:
http://spda-online.ca/modules/xoopsgallery/view_album.php?set_albumName=album01

Yeah, If the teins are an issue I will make plates as well. If I do make some and they turn out ok I will post up some pics.

Checked tonight, the teins are triangular.

Checked tonight, the teins are triangular.

If you will be running Teins Tim let me know, I will fab you some plates when I do mine, if you want, for the cost of the aluminum which won't be bad.

Justin

http://www.spryracing.com/FAQS/technical/suspension/camberplatemod/STicuscostandard_chart.JPG
http://www.spryracing.com/FAQS/technical/suspension/camberplatemod/STicuscoenhanced_chart.JPG

In my calculations I am assuming you have the stock front camber bolt set to -1 degrees per side. This is easily achievable (more is possible), and still allows you to make enough caster adjustment. I am also assuming that the "movement" arm for caster and camber rotate around the same point, which I think makes sense, but someone correct me if I am wrong.

Justin


Just wondering when you did your alignment, how close were the numbers to those calculated on the charts?

Im wondering if Im missing something, Im about 0.5 degres short of the theoretical numbers on a 05 sti. I have my cusco plates drilled at 30deg, and camber bolt maxed. With a crude camber gauge Im getting about -2.2/-2.3 deg in the front. I would like to not extend the slot if I can help it just to keep more meat on the plates to minimize bendage, but I might have to to get closer to -3 degress camber and yet still adding a bit of castor.

Thanks to anyone that might have done this...

I have the MRT/Noltec race plates up front with a Whiteline G4 suspension. I have been running with the plates in the 'massive caster' positions for almost a year. The plates were oriented such that the offset holes were towards the back of the car. I had about 7.2 degrees of caster and all the camber I could get with the plates slammed in all the way was -2.1 with the stock camber bolts maxed. The car worked quite well that way but I learned I needed more negative camber.

Yesterday WJM and JWX (with very little help from myself) installed the Whiteline offset front control arm bushings for +0.5 caster and swapped my camber plates side to side so I could get the offset holes in the camber plane instead of the caster plane.

We put the car on the alignment rack and the camber came out to -4.7 degrees with the plates maxed out: obviously too much! WJM used the camber bolts to remove as much camber as possible and we ended up with a new max of -4.0 camber.

With the plates in this new orientation we gain caster as we remove camber when adjusting. At the max camber setting with -4.0 camber we have 5.0 caster. With the plates at their minimum settings we're at about -1.5 camber and somewhat more caster; I'm not sure how much more because we didn't measure it.

I think we'll quickly decide that -4.0 is TOO MUCH camber but I think it's cool that we'll gain caster as we remove camber!

As for the MRT/Noltec plates I like their range of adjustment but it's hard to get them to specific settings repeatedly. If I could I would use the PDE plates but I cannot because of the super convenient top mounted damper adjusters on the Whiteline G4 struts.

-JWM

DMS has a cap option that would allow access to top mounted adjusters. It is specific to our kits though. Basically were the DMS logo is it is open there.

-mark

I added the charts to the quote above.

On my 05 STi I cant get more than -0.9 to -1.0 with the stock camber bolts. According to CH's charts I should be able to get -2.7 ish without extending the slots (holes drilled at 30deg.) and Im only getting -2.2 to -2.3... where's the other 0.5 degree going?

Just wanted to check to if anyone has validated these calculations and if there needs to be a fudge factor added or if Im just being an idiot. Maybe I didnt get all the slop out of the system, but I doubt there's a half degree of slop in there. In no way am I questioning anyones math here, just want to back up CH's great work with some alignment numbers.

Dont know why but on my 02 wrx I was able to get -1.6 camber with just the stock bolts and nothing else.. strange...

DMS has a cap option that would allow access to top mounted adjusters. It is specific to our kits though. Basically where the DMS logo is it is open there.

-mark

*DROOL*

If you are certain they will work with the Whiteline G4s then sign me up! Are there some pictures of this you can show us?

-JWM

I added the charts to the quote above.

On my 05 STi I cant get more than -0.9 to -1.0 with the stock camber bolts. According to CH's charts I should be able to get -2.7 ish without extending the slots (holes drilled at 30deg.) and Im only getting -2.2 to -2.3... where's the other 0.5 degree going?

Just wanted to check to if anyone has validated these calculations and if there needs to be a fudge factor added or if Im just being an idiot. Maybe I didnt get all the slop out of the system, but I doubt there's a half degree of slop in there. In no way am I questioning anyones math here, just want to back up CH's great work with some alignment numbers.

Dont know why but on my 02 wrx I was able to get -1.6 camber with just the stock bolts and nothing else.. strange...

I haven't gotten the chance to do an alignment or modify my plates yet. My charts are theoretical but it would be nice to start adding in some real work data so I can "adjust" for reality. Perhaps the strut does not evenly rotate about a single point at the base as I assumed. I'd need some time on an alignment rack to check it out. So you are 0.5 short? Maybe the numbers cusco gave me are wrong. Supposedly the Cusco plates add 2 degrees from the 0 position, that's what I am assuming. If this isn't right let me know because I need to fix it in the chart. I would assume most camber plates offer a max travel of -2 degrees but it looks like I could be assuming wrong. I can fix the charts as long as we get all the assumptions correct.

Justin

Yeah thats what I would assume too. I havent put much thought into this yet, but perhaps there is some sort of non-linearity somewhere.

I guess I could set things up using the 0 deg holes and see what kind of camber I get. That would be a PITA. Im guessing it could just be the how Im measuring things, or I have a crappy camber gauge. Just checking to see what others are getting so I can narrow down what could be going on.

If others seem to be getting close to your calculations then Id say im the idiot and somethings amuck on my car or how im going about things.

Most people and even alignment shops are lucky to be with in 0.5 degrees of camber. You need to especially take your floor level into consideration.

Most people and even alignment shops are lucky to be with in 0.5 degrees of camber. You need to especially take your floor level into consideration.


Yeah, thats true. Havent measured it. I guess I was assuming that since its a poured concrete floor its pretty flat. Now that you mention it, Im not sure how good of an assumption that is.. Ill check it tonight.

Alignments for camber should be better than 0.5 degree for good alignment rack setups. camera based or Hunter ones can read +/- 0.1 so I imagine you should be good to 0.2 degree at the worst.

Most people and even alignment shops are lucky to be with in 0.5 degrees of camber. You need to especially take your floor level into consideration.

I think what is nice about the charts is that they are a quick reference to a ballpark as to how much you are loosing vs gaining based on how exreme an angle you pick.

Mak - don't you have a smart camber gauge, or was that mundi. I'd like to pick one up and try it out this season, you could also use it in this situation.

Quick question- when you guys are modifying the plates- what are you using for the new studs?

I just pressed them out, drilled new holes, and pressed them back in.

I used a 5/16 bit and it seems to work pretty well keeping enough interference to get a solid press fit. All these really need to do is stay in with enough metal behind the head so they dont pull through.

If with repetative insertions and removal, the stud gets loose, I think you could just epoxy them in there or worst case get a washer and it'll be fine. its not taking any tensile or compressive loads, its just holding the plate to the strut tower, and taking shear loads.

Quick question- when you guys are modifying the plates- what are you using for the new studs?
ARP makes just about any fastener you could ever need, if you couldnt reuse the original ones.

Grade 8 stainless bolts will be more than adequate. ARP is definatly a high quality part. You can also check out TRIDENT FASTNERS out of the UK.

I do not let a car go out of my shop with more than .1 degree camber varience from what the setup I am doing specifys.

.5 almost every driver I know (including my mother and girlfriend) feel that much difference. If your allignment shop can not do better than that, find a nother shop or ask them to recaliberate their machine / lift / setup.

-mark

So I checked my floor, its really flat

so Im still wondering if others can verify CH's calculated numbers from actual alignments..

Thinking of making some custom plates and cannibalizing the bearing carrier from either my Cusco or Tein plates (long story) and stumbled across this thread.

Cusco and Tein both have a 15 space index range but the Cusco "O" is -10 to +5 and the Tein is -12 to +3. I think in pure camber adjustment each space is .2* but it's been along time and mine are rotated now.

In this configuration I'm still caster challenged but even with my camber bolt at full Positive I can get -3 or more, on unmodded plates. This is with my GC8 sitting at 13.125".

member #79 bringing a thread back from the depths..

Great thread, I'd like to do this mod to my plates eventually. Damn I wish we had a Mill at work..

Since someone else brought this thread back...

I have a couple spare upper plates I made for the Teins when I had mine made. These are set back so you have added caster while giving you the normal camber adjustments so you can change from street to track/autox without effecting caster. They are pretty much a drop in replacement for Tein coilovers. Can be installed in about 15 minutes.

I'm clearing out my old parts now and am willing to just sell these below what it cost me to get them made. PM me for more info.

http://images30.fotki.com/v477/photos/6/61159/5991855/_DSC1746-vi.jpg

a while back I jacked up my stocker right wheels and right side camber plate when I drove over something heavy and concrete. My bad but at least I didn't wreck the car. I'll take two bent wheels and a camber plate over a bent coilover or body work any time.

Bought a used wheel off some guy. Need one more, but the least bent one's now on the rear. The shaking/shimmy has subsided significantly.

Bought some replacement camber plates off one of the local members of the Flat4. I had the slots elongated and the installation angle clocked to 55 degrees from stock. So now rather than camber plates, I have camber/castor plates. With these changes I get slightly less camber adjustment than before (-1.82 vs -2) but can now add up to 2.6 degrees of caster. "Ooooooo!", I hear you say. That castor should make up for the loss in camber.

I also had to clearance some areas on the ball joint base that I didn't anticipate would be a problem.

Here's some camber/caster plate pron:
http://members.cox.net/rasmus.hansen/modified%20camber-caster%20plates%20wrx%20001.jpg
http://members.cox.net/rasmus.hansen/modified%20camber-caster%20plates%20wrx%20002.jpg

I just read this entire thread, and realized that it has become more of a talk about modifying the cusco plates to gain caster than a talk of what plates are availalbe. PDE and Noltec/MRT are NOT the only plates available. In the lower price range Whiteline has plates availalbe, medium price range K-Max makes plates and in the high price range you can find HKS plates. And yes, those are all camber and caster adjustable. That said, I will mention that the Noltec/MRT and Cusco plates are both designs that sometimes warp. The PDE plates are the easiest to readjust over and over again, however, changing setting means toe, etc. is off and you should really re-align the car. The Noltec/MRT plates also have the issue of the bearing seaming to be more likely to fail then on other brands (or, maybe I was just unlucky with mine?). If I had to recommend what I though was the best design, regardless of price, Whiteline and HKS would get my recommendation. If you want to change your setting each time you autocross the car PDE is the best choice. If you want the cheapest, redrill the Cusco plates. By the way, while more caster does make the car feel quite great, I noticed that excessive adjustment through plates had a negative effect on bump-steer. So for those of you that are driving off-road or on rought roads, extra caster and more easily damaged than stock topmounts would not be a good choice for that application.

A rarely discussed plate is the Eibach/SPC plate. It looks more like the Noltec comfort plates with a urethane insert to reduce NVH. I just bought a set, so I'll report back if they fail prematurely like the Noltec's were reported to do. It does have multiple bolting positions so you can angle the camber adjustment to gain caster at the same time, however, their range of adjustment in both dimensions is fairly limited.

Frank

This is great stuff. I am just curious how to remove and replace the stud without denting/bending the plate. Knowing me, I would just use a vise and a BFH. Any other preferred methods?

This is great stuff. I am just curious how to remove and replace the stud without denting/bending the plate. Knowing me, I would just use a vise and a BFH. Any other preferred methods?

Super easy, big C clamp kind that threads, a socket and a flange type nut to put on the threads of the studs, use the C clamp to push the studs out, using the socket on the back to catch them.:D

Super easy, big C clamp kind that threads, a socket and a flange type nut to put on the threads of the studs, use the C clamp to push the studs out, using the socket on the back to catch them.:D

I get it now, thanks.

BRILLIANT!

Also found this post in the earlier pages and thought it was helpful info for hole sizing and machining techniques.

I think that would depend on the type of tire your running. R-compound or street, and the width. Wide r-compounds do not need as much camber.

If you look at mine, you'll see I picked a spot where if I went any further I'd start losing camber. I used the right on the left and the left on the right. With the plates off the car. I took an old aluminium street sign and marked the bolts, on the sign, by tapping it with a hammer. Drilled the sign so i had a template. Came to the conclusion the bolt holes needed to be rotated 3/4" from where they were. I pressed the old bolts out with a socket and vise, there splined just like a wheel stud. Found the appropriate bit, marked and drilled the plates. Pressed the studs back into there new holes. Put the plates back on the car and used a sharpie to mark the strut tower opening. I left it about a 1/16" away from the shock tower. I think I used an 1 1/2" or 1 1/4" hole saw, layed out and used a center punch and drilled the hole. Used a jig saw and a file to finish it off. I think I used a 1/4" drill for the allen head pinch bolts. Jig saw and file to finish off.

Reinstalled and marveld at my new found cambar and castor. :)

I use fairly narrow street tires, obviously STX.

I think that would depend on the type of tire your running. R-compound or street, and the width. Wide r-compounds do not need as much camber.

If you look at mine, you'll see I picked a spot where if I went any further I'd start losing camber. I used the right on the left and the left on the right. With the plates off the car. I took an old aluminium street sign and marked the bolts, on the sign, by tapping it with a hammer. Drilled the sign so i had a template. Came to the conclusion the bolt holes needed to be rotated 3/4" from where they were. I pressed the old bolts out with a socket and vise, there splined just like a wheel stud. Found the appropriate bit, marked and drilled the plates. Pressed the studs back into there new holes. Put the plates back on the car and used a sharpie to mark the strut tower opening. I left it about a 1/16" away from the shock tower. I think I used an 1 1/2" or 1 1/4" hole saw, layed out and used a center punch and drilled the hole. Used a jig saw and a file to finish it off. I think I used a 1/4" drill for the allen head pinch bolts. Jig saw and file to finish off.

Reinstalled and marveld at my new found cambar and castor. :)

I use fairly narrow street tires, obviously STX.
Much easier just to buy someone's already modded plates :lol:

know anyone with a set pre hacked for sale?

DOes anyone know if the Cusco REAR camber plates bolt up to Tien Flex for 06 STI?
thanks