I'm having some issues with my S3L having low oil pressure and I know someone else who had some similar issues.

Please provide any of the following information that you can. Thanks Guys!

Mileage on the motor?
Oil pressure at cold start?
Oil pressure at warm idle?
Oil pressure at warm cruise? (specify rough rpm)
Weight and brand of oil?
Piston/Bore clearance?
Burning any oil?
Anything else that might be relevant to this discussion...

Thanks again!

Bump for some answers!!

crawford has a good warranty man. Go back over there and have them check it out. They checked my car several times after my swap to make sure all was good.

Thanks for the input. Your comments have ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with what I'm asking, but thanks...

Hey steve, do you think you may have to much bearing clearance???

Probably. I can't think of any other logical explanation for my oil pressure being so low. I mean, having to run 50 weight oil to keep my warm oil pressure at a reasonable level is not ok and not normal...

Instead of being an ass to someone who made a legitimate suggestion why dont you call crawford and ask or is that to much trouble to pick up the phone.

My motor wasn't built by crawford, so whatever warranty crawford offers doesn't apply to me. His post also didn't answer any question that I asked regarding oil pressure. Also, going over to crawford is really not gonna happen from NJ. If he had anything to say relevant to what I asked then I would have taken his suggestion. But his suggestion was not legitimate.
I could call crawford and ask, but I want to hear from people who have the motors and run them everyday. I want their unbiased factual opinions. I will call quirt when I'm ready to speak to him, but I want to have some information before I call him. I don't want to call him and have him tell me 'X' SHOULD happen, when everyone running around with the motors is telling me 'Y' IS happening. Whether quirt is a great guy or not, he is a vendor and I only trust any vendor so much.

pmub. Crap I thought if I put it backward it would send this to the bottom.

You call it an S3L which is how Crawford designates their motors which would lead us to believe it is one of theirs.Thats why he was suggesting calling them.

You should provide the same answers to the questions you asked also.Especially the mileage.
Race motors are known for not lasting very long.

Mileage on the motor?
Oil pressure at cold start?
Oil pressure at warm idle?
Oil pressure at warm cruise? (specify rough rpm)
Weight and brand of oil?
Piston/Bore clearance?
Burning any oil?

I understand that you are trying to get ideas about what is going on though.

My motor is the crawford S3L package (Pauter long rods, Crawford spec'ed 100mm CP pistons, bearings) that I purchased form crawford and had a local shop build for me in a used ej257. So it is an S3L but it wasn't built by crawford.

Mileage: 500miles
Cold oil pressure: ~85psi
Warm Idle Pressure: 14psi
Warm cruise Pressure: 32psi (~3k rpms)
Oil type: Castrol GTX 20w-50 (Non-Synth. for break in)
Piston/Bore Clearance: .0035"
Burning oil?: Not that I can tell but the oil has been changed twice already

Any oil lower than 20w-50 has resulted in oil pressures out of factory spec (7psi idle).

Did you ever swap out your oil pump? What pump are using? An EJ22T oil pump with
shims correct?

So from day one you have seen this low oil pressure problem? Did you ever get the spec sheet from your builder?

-Matt

pmub. Crap I thought if I put it backward it would send this to the bottom.
That may be one of the dumbest posts ive ever read. As for the oil pump it was originally a shimmed ej22t pump, but we swapped it for a stock 257 pump.

Did it effect the pressure any when you swapped pumps? Did you try and shim the 257 pump? I am assuming you know where the shims are supposed to go.

-Matt

It was holding pressure pretty well. Once it was fully warmed sitting outside the garage bay he had good pressure but when steve took it for a ride and came back it was back to minimal pressure. I do not believe the 257 pump was shimmed.

Hmm... Definitely sounds like an assembly error. I would really like to see the specs from the builders notes.

-Matt

I'm having some issues with my S3L having low oil pressure and I know someone else who had some similar issues.

Please provide any of the following information that you can. Thanks Guys!

Mileage on the motor?
Oil pressure at cold start?
Oil pressure at warm idle?
Oil pressure at warm cruise? (specify rough rpm)
Weight and brand of oil?
Piston/Bore clearance?
Burning any oil?
Anything else that might be relevant to this discussion...

Thanks again!

Why did you have another shop build it in the first place? Why not have it built from where you were buying the parts? That way they have to take all the responsibility, instead now you are going to have your builder say it was the vendors fault and the vendor say it was the builders fault.

Everyone loves to point fingers but no one ever takes the responsibility and then you get screwed.

Why did you have another shop build it in the first place? Why not have it built from where you were buying the parts? That way they have to take all the responsibility, instead now you are going to have your builder say it was the vendors fault and the vendor say it was the builders fault.

Everyone loves to point fingers but no one ever takes the responsibility and then you get screwed.
I had it built by someone who I trust and who I can go visit anytime I want and do business with face-to-face. It's easy for people to be scumbags via email or by phone so I do what I can to avoid having things like this done somewhere too far for me to drive to. Also, If I ever have a problem I'd rather have the person who built the motor sit in the actual car and help me diagnose the problem as opposed to trying to describe a sound/vibration over the phone. And quite frankly, I'm not a fan of how quirt builds motors over there. I had my block machined specifically for my pistons, so they fit right. They buy blocks over there and drop in pistons assuming that the pistons and the block are always exactly the same size. They're not, and that can cause all sorts of problems...

Maybe you need to find some better people to do business with. The builder is going to rebuild the motor free of labor cost. :banana: I'm gonna be buying the bearings and sending them to get coated like I should have in the first place....

I had it built by someone who I trust and who I can go visit anytime I want and do business with face-to-face. It's easy for people to be scumbags via email or by phone so I do what I can to avoid having things like this done somewhere too far for me to drive to. Also, If I ever have a problem I'd rather have the person who built the motor sit in the actual car and help me diagnose the problem as opposed to trying to describe a sound/vibration over the phone. And quite frankly, I'm not a fan of how quirt builds motors over there. I had my block machined specifically for my pistons, so they fit right. They buy blocks over there and drop in pistons assuming that the pistons and the block are always exactly the same size. They're not, and that can cause all sorts of problems...

Maybe you need to find some better people to do business with. The builder is going to rebuild the motor free of labor cost. :banana: I'm gonna be buying the bearings and sending them to get coated like I should have in the first place....

If you trust the people you are going to work with then that is the best option. Hopefully they won't back out when you really need them, but it does not sound like they will.

Doesn't Subaru (a decently reputable company, ;))put the same exact pistons and rings in every one of there brand new engines?

If you trust the people you are going to work with then that is the best option. Hopefully they won't back out when you really need them, but it does not sound like they will.
They have proven themselves to me many times over. They always come through for me if/when things get bad.

Doesn't Subaru (a decently reputable company, ;))put the same exact pistons and rings in every one of there brand new engines?
Yea, except subaru doesn't use pistons that expand like nuts so they can put them in at MUCH tighter tolerances, whereas the CP pistons will expand a good amount so you have to err on the highside to make them drop-in. Of course, that may work sometimes, and not other times. How many stock sti's have piston slap? How many crawford engines do? $10 says the percentage is higher on the crawford motors ;)

I have personally never seen any Crawford Engines or Subaru engines with pistons slap. Though I have not seen many of either. But it does beg the question if they are all the same Subaru or Crawford, would you ever hear any piston slap in any?

Remember the internet is not all truth. I only believe what I see and hear first hand.

Anyway good luck on your project and hope all works out well for you and if I were you I wouldn't state you have a S3L if someone else is building it. That is like saying you have an STi when you really have a WRX with all the looks of an STi.

does quirt use his drop ins on his higher end motors?
as far as i thought he used a bore gauge and had the block bored and honed for the pistons

I were you I wouldn't state you have a S3L if someone else is building it. That is like saying you have an STi when you really have a WRX with all the looks of an STi.

that was one of the worst analogy's ive ever heard

a engine case is and engine case, and if built by ANY good engine builder will be an equally good motor, if not a lil better or a lil worse

the statement you made gives me the impression your one of those guys who mods there cars to brag about what brand parts you have. IMO people like that are almost as bad as ricers.

I support the guy who started the thread, he wants honest no BS answers, i think he made the proper decision with a local trustworthy builder. I am in the process of doing the same

Adam

http://www.crawfordperformance.com/products/db_parts.cgi?Menu=1-3

Adam, thanks for the backup. It would be one thing if I dropped in CP pistons on an otherwise stock sti block and called it an S2. That could definitely be open to interpretation. But the fact is that I bought the S3L kit from crawford with crawford spec rods from pauter and crawford spec pistons from CP. The combination doesn't exist anywhere else. I think it's safe to say it's an S3L. The invoice even says 'S3L Stroker Kit'.

does quirt use his drop ins on his higher end motors?
as far as i thought he used a bore gauge and had the block bored and honed for the pistons
I was calling asking what they spec for piston/bore clearance numbers and he basically said that the pistons come in X size and the bores are Y size and that they don't know what the clearance should be since they don't measure it. Trust me, at 9am this was a very frustrating conversation to be having with an engine builder who supplies pistons. I was amazed he couldn't give me a straight answer. He couldn't give me one, nor could he give my engine builder or the machinist a straight answer either (yes, all three of us spoke to him and I finally got an answer out of him after about 30 minutes of back and forth on the phone).

I have personally never seen any Crawford Engines or Subaru engines with pistons slap. Though I have not seen many of either. But it does beg the question if they are all the same Subaru or Crawford, would you ever hear any piston slap in any?
I have seen video on this forum of a crawford built engine that had HORRIBLE piston slap. I mean, you could've mistaken this thing for a 20 year old diesel. This was an actual video, not some random guy's story. But I agree, you can't believe everything anyone tells you on the internet...

I was calling asking what they spec for piston/bore clearance numbers and he basically said that the pistons come in X size and the bores are Y size and that they don't know what the clearance should be since they don't measure it.

Sounds like you spoke with Chris. Quirt has never failed to give me numbers (other than flow numbers for my heads, and I had them flowed myself) when I asked. He measures the bore clearances, I guarantee you. Was he the guy that machined your block? Is he the guy with the mics in his hand? I assume not.

I would be apprehensive about discussing an engine I did not have a hand in assembling.

It's definitely good that your assembler is going to reassemble it at no charge, but it's still hard on your wallet, I understand.

If I can help in any way, please PM me.

S.

This was an actual video, not some random guy's story. But I agree, you can't believe everything anyone tells you on the internet...

I would like to see this video, when you find it let me know.

Sounds like you spoke with Chris. Quirt has never failed to give me numbers (other than flow numbers for my heads, and I had them flowed myself) when I asked. He measures the bore clearances, I guarantee you. Was he the guy that machined your block? Is he the guy with the mics in his hand? I assume not.

I would be apprehensive about discussing an engine I did not have a hand in assembling.

It's definitely good that your assembler is going to reassemble it at no charge, but it's still hard on your wallet, I understand.

If I can help in any way, please PM me.

S.
I DEFINITELY spoke to quirt. Chris sold me my kit, but this discussion was definitely with Quirt. I'm not trying to turn this into a back and forth. I'd be glad to know that my experience was out of the ordinary if you're telling me otherwise...

they know the size's man. Its just top secret hush hush stuff. The only information they ever disclose is the obvious. Any other info they might have is for thier knowing only, because they have 20 years of combined experience.

im being sarcastic, but its true.

They sold me a piston kit and wanted to keep the bore/piston clearance hush hush? That doesn't work very well...

top secret numbers??? come on now, its basic mechanics of building an engine, not some top secret fast and the furious BS

I am sorry that you are having problems with our components.

Please send them back for a FULL refund.

Quirt Crawford
www.crawfordperformance.com

Not surprised to see that response from Quirt. But you can hardly blame his parts when your mechanic did the machine work to prep it. I can understand the frustration that it's not right and that Crawford wasn't totally up front about some clearances, but come on man! As has been mentioned, piston to cylinder clearances are not top secret information. If your engine builder is worth his snuff he's going to be able to sort that out for himself without a 30 minute phone call. I think the reason you aren't getting anyone coming forward with a faulty Crawford built S3l is because they aren't out there. Maybe misassembles S3l kits, but not Quirts engines. And if it did happen, he would stand behind it, like he has offered to do on your components...

Quirt, thanks for that...

Matt, go back and read this thread. Read it carefully. I never blamed quirt for anything other than a bit of frustration. He wasn't the most helpful person around, but whatever. Quirt didn't set the bearing clearances on the motor so it's not his problem...
I don't think the engine builder should have to sort out on his own what the piston bore clearances should be. While there is a general number that people go by, forged pistons all have different expansion rates and he didn't want to go too loose or too tight and have that cause a problem (excessive slap or scuffing). Any engine builder who is worth his snuff will find out what the manufacturer recommends for those clearances instead of sorting that out on his own. When you're dealing with something this intricate (we're talking thousandths of an inch here), sorting it out on your own is another way to say 'guess'. No thanks. In hindsight, I should have called CP directly since they made the pistons...

As far as my initial questions, I didn't want anyone to report faulty S3L's. I wanted anyone with an S3L, working correctly or not, to share some info with me. I was curious how atypical my results were, and given that I spoke to another S3L owner (built by crawford) with lower than normal oil pressure, I didn't think it was an unreasonable request.

I have an S3L in my car and its been running for about7 months with no problems what so ever. It doesn't consume oil or have noisy pistons, I am as pleased today with my engine as i was when i got, it couldn't be better. The boys at Crawford have always been helpful to me and answered any questions i had. thanks again.

To be fair after having read all posts, you do seem to be leaning the blame in one direction and since i did read ALL the posts I'm not the only one with this opinion.

Scoopy, thanks for your reply.

Ok, please show me where in this thread I have leaned any blame towards crawford performance or quirt crawford himself. If anyone has interpreted that I'm trying to place any blame in that direction let me be clear so we can move on from this: Crawford performance, quirt crawford, and anyone affiliated with them are at no fault for any problem I'm having.
I ask anyone who thinks that something I posted states anything to the contrary to please point that out to me so I can edit those statements accordingly. I did say that I have heard crawford motors with piston slap, but quite frankly I don't care and that's not my concern with this thread. I also said that at some point quirt was not forthcoming with information regardin piston clearances, but again, I got that worked out and I really don't care. Sharing my experience with one thing is not my way of placing the blame for something else. That isn't my problem and my car is fine in that regard so I could care less. The piston clearances have nothing to do with the oil pressure so how anyone could think that by stating my frustration with that has ANYTHING to do with my oil pressure problem obviously doesn't understand what's going on.
My intent with this thread was in no way to accuse or point the finger at anyone. I was simply trying to see if S3L motors for whatever reason tend to run lower oil pressure than normal sti blocks. I wasn't sure how worried I should be about my issue.

Hi all,
I've been running the S3L with CP 32 And Motec M800 with Anti Lag on my 04 STI for 4 months(6,000 miles) no engine noise,no extra oil consumption,...
Im so proud that i'm dealing with Crawford Performance.

in 2 weeks i'll be receiving my Crazy S4 and the CP35R

Regards

Thanks for the input. Love the screen name!

Hi all,
I've been running the S3L with CP 32 And Motec M800 with Anti Lag on my 04 STI for 4 months(6,000 miles) no engine noise,no extra oil consumption,...
Im so proud that i'm dealing with Crawford Performance.

in 2 weeks i'll be receiving my Crazy S4 and the CP35R

Regards

We have those videos you sent us of your S3L drifting around your local go-kart track and uploaded them this morning to the Crawford Performance website.

Go-Kart Track Number 1 (http://www.crawfordperformance.com/gallery/video/SubKarting1.wmv)

Go-Kart Track Number 2 (http://www.crawfordperformance.com/gallery/video/SubKarting2.wmv)

Here are the links for who ever might interested. They sound bitchen for a camera phone.

Cheers,
William T. Knose Jr.

:eek: Nice driving!

Thx alot Javier,I think with the S4 & the CP35R will be even better.

DCCD was on Auto mode

I think you're right!! Definitely get some video of that up here!

Very fun videos. Nice driving too. (But, I have a much better vehicle for that track...the real thing. :) )

Don't know if it is too late, or if it was already answered. But if you have an STi block, and you have a WRX oil pump, you MUST use an STi or EJ22T oil pump.

Julio, I had an ej22t and sti pump in. Neither helped...

It may sound stupid, but have you tried testing with a second gauge-sender to validate the readings?

I used a mechanical gauge to verify the readings on my defi gauge. The good news is that my gauge is spot on!

haha! those vids were hilarious!

Javier,
In case you haven't seen this thread, I think it could be relevant to you and your oil pressure problem...

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=931626&page=1&pp=25

I saw the thread. I don't think pistons or piston design have much bearing on oil pressure. I can't imagine that being related to my problem, but it does make me laugh after re-reading post #18 in this thread and the subsequent reponses :lol:

They call that 'wisdom' Javier. :lol:

I saw the thread. I don't think pistons or piston design have much bearing on oil pressure. I can't imagine that being related to my problem, but it does make me laugh after re-reading post #18 in this thread and the subsequent reponses :lol:

Javier,
I guess I wasn't very clear in my comments. Though if I had read a little further in Glock's thread and seen your post where you are obviously still peeved with my previous comments, I probably wouldn't have made the effort to be helpful and make sure you were aware of the potential issue. But since I am here, I will line out my thinking anyways.

No, I did not mean that his problem and the alleged piston clearance issues were the cause of your problem. What I meant to imply is that you may have a timebomb on your hands. Probably not, but I always raise the question "What If?" and do everything in my power to answer it.

In Glock's motorsports application, something like this supposed clearance issue is going to show itself much sooner than a street driven car like yours. It may only be a matter of time before your engine develops the same problems. Since I don't have a PM correspondence with you, I don't know your exact plans, but it sounded to me like you had plans to rebuild your engine and address the assumed culprit of your oil pressure woes, bearings that are too loose.

If it were my engine, in light of recent events, I would likely jump on Quirt's very generous offer to give you your money back. I get the impression that you some how think I sided with Quirt because of my comments regarding your quest for numbers for piston to cylinder clearances. That's not really the case. I saw what looked to me like a Quirt witch hunt and spoke up that Quirt would do right by you. Do I think you should have to spend any significant amount of time trying to get those clearance from Quirt? No, I don't.

With my comments about your engine builder, I will confess that I was probably a little out of line and could have been more sympathetic to your situation. I really was responding because I didn't care for the direction the thread was taking. It didn't seem to be at all about figuring out your problem. Your builder did the right thing, and requested tolerances. He was obviously measuring the parts to make sure they were right. But a truly good mechanic is going to have his own opinion on what those should be.

So, I do stand by my comments regarding a good mechanic and his abilities. I work for a Porsche shop. Our specialty is transmissions and engines. That is the only kind of work we do. Our head mechanic has been building Porsche engines for close to 40 years. He is definitely a master mechanic (something I don't consider myself, even though I build engines). With Porsche's you have individual cylinders that are modular because of the air cooled design. Over the years, the materials for them have been varied, with both Aluminum and Iron being used, as well as a variety of lining materials. Add to that a number of different manufacturers and cast, hypereutic cast and forged pistons, and you have a huge number of combinations with different expansion behaviours. Our engines will be set up differently based upon application. There are going to be different clearances and tolerances for a street engine expected to run 100k mi than for an engine destined for Sebring or LeMans. And sometimes, our lead mechanic's opinion on those tolerances differs from the manufacture, be it JE or Mahle or someone else. That falls under experience, and are often referred to as the "secrets" of an engine builder. I would trust his word on a proper clearance over the manufacture any day. That's really what I was getting at.

I am not 100% convinced Glock's issue is based on clearances, and think Skully made some really good points. Furthermore, in Glock's application, I wouldn't expect a really long life out of an engine anyways. When we build a race engine for something like the Sebring, we really only give it a 60-80 hour lifespan. If I were in Quirt's shoes with Glock, we would demand to have the complete engine in hand and tear it down ourselves to find the point of failure. In our shop nothing gets warrantied unless we built it, or at the very least get to do the teardown. If I've got a guy telling me one of our ring and pinions (we manufacture gears, LSD's and Ring and Pinions) shredded after only 2 races, and his mechanic built the box, the first thing I want to look at is pre-load, backlash and pinion depth, and signs that it was run low on gear oil. Only if we feel it was a faulty part would we warranty it. As they say, that's racing. You don't get a warranty unless we feel like it.

In light of that approach by many shops, I consider Quirt's offer to take your engine back, sight unseen, very generous. And with the kind of money you have on the table, why gamble? When you get it apart, measure those parts very carefully. If anything appears out of spec, take him up on his offer. But you would probably do that anyways. I don't think many of the other people reading Glock's thread who own Crawford blocks will even be given a choice...

Matt, thanks for your comments. I understand what you're saying and I appreciate you taking the time to clarify. Let me just say that am I in no way peeved at you nor was I ever. I'm not the type of person to get upset over people making logical thoughts and statements.
Everything in my motor will be torn down and measured and then remeasured when the time comes. The engine came out of the car yesterday and will be apart shortly. If anything isn't as it should be, I will take up quirt on his offer.
As far as the mechanic situation, my mechanic isn't a builder for porsche or lemans. He knows how to build motors, but he doesn't have experience with every imaginable piston type on planet earth. So when he encounters something he's not totally familar with (like the CP pistons) he likes to make sure that his 'hunches' are correct. Before we talked to anyone we were talking about .0035 or .0030 clearances for the pistons. We ended up using .0035 based on what we extrapolated from Quirt's 'info'. I see what you're saying, but I don't think there's any shame in asking for help if you're not 100% sure. I don't think that's a sign of someone who doesn't know what they're doing. I think that's the wisdom of someone who knows enough to double check if they're not 100% sure.

point taken, and that's kind of what I was getting at with my comments about your mechanic. A good mechanic will have the good sense to ask questions if anything doesn't seem right to him. I should have given him credit for that in the first place...

I will also add, that I removed some of my comments about Quirt's situation and responses. I re-read my original remarks and don't really feel I am in a position to speculate one way or the other about what really is the truth. Without either engine in front of me on the bench, I don't really know what the truth is, and don't want to join the witch hunt. I just wanted to say that I would definitely be asking myself the question, "what if this is a problem?"

I will also add, that I removed some of my comments about Quirt's situation and responses. I re-read my original remarks and don't really feel I am in a position to speculate one way or the other about what really is the truth. Without either engine in front of me on the bench, I don't really know what the truth is, and don't want to join the witch hunt. I just wanted to say that I would definitely be asking myself the question, "what if this is a problem?"
I agree. I'm not trying to join the with hunt either. I just found it ironic that Imentioned something in passing that ended up being the basis for the latest rage on this forum...
After thinking about what you said I gave crawford performance a call and spoke to Chris about my uneasiness. Basically, he told me if I wasn't comfortable to send the parts back. I'm going to take them up on the offer. Otherwise my gut would seize everytime I heard any noise in my motor out of the ordinary. So, now that that's done.... Wanna recommend soome pistons and rods? :)

I am really interested to hear from people who have started using the Mahle pistons. Being a Porsche guy, I have a bias towards them.

I have always been partial to Cobb's products, but since their block program has just been revamped, I would want someone else to be the test monkey and see what they can put out. But if you can afford them, I think a set of their Ti rods would be pretty trick, and they've been out there a while. I am sure you can find a testimonial or two if you look around.

Beyond that, I am kind of an OEM is best sort of guy. Xephyr is a friend of mine, and he's done a pretty good job of convincing me of the things you can do on a stock block. He hits a fair bit over 400whp (uncorrected and at 5000ft) with a stock STI block and SOHC EJ25 heads. It's all about the turbo and the tune. I have never personally had the need for that kind of power myself. I stick to lower power levels and cheap OEM parts. I have a decent history of blowing things up, and that keeps the repairs in the $1000-1500 range versus the $2500-5000+ range. I am revamping and old Rimmer supercharger kit right now and putting together an engine for it. It will only blow 15psi and 325-350hp or so, and a plain old Ej257 STI bottom end will be the choice.

I am really interested to hear from people who have started using the Mahle pistons.
BBoy already has 'em, I'm putting them in as we write. PDXTuning will also be installing, I think, 2 more sets in the near future. Stay tuned.

Ask Bboy how he likes them so far.

I am revamping and old Rimmer supercharger kit right now and putting together an engine for it. It will only blow 15psi and 325-350hp or so, and a plain old Ej257 STI bottom end will be the choice.

Now THAT is a name i've not heard in a while. Sorry to go OT...but please make sure to keep us posted on how that goes, i'm curious to see. Will you be modifying the mounting at all or are you going with the hood bulge?

With that said the Mahle pistons seem to provide alot of value with your purchase imo:)

Louis
www.dentsport.com
781-551-3399

Well, Mahle's are on the top of my list but may not be an option. I have the bores set for my 100mm pistons plus the .0035 PW clearances. If the pistons were the advertised size, I can't drop the mahle 100mm pistons in there. I have to use 100.5mm pistons which mahle doesn't and won't make. If They will fit, I may use them, but I'd rather bore the cylinder out for larger pistons. I think right now Wiseco is on the top of the list since I can get them custom sized at 100.5mm for a pretty reasonable price I think....

You know, a name I don't see thrown around the turbo builder circles very much around here is TWE. They get their pistons from Wiseco. They are pretty much the top tuner in the NA circles with zzyzx's 300chp NA build.

dentsport,
Actually it is the 3rd generation unit mentioned in passing in Shiv's old 04/00 SCC project car installment. Autorotor blower mounting between the ABS and steering pump with a 2 row AWIC. no bump required. I've got a thread about it in the conversions forum, but it will be slow going. I don't think I will really have anything to report for a few months. The short build plan is SOHC EJ25 heads, STI bottom end, v6STi manifold and yellow tops and standalone EM. Going in a nice light little '95 L coupe...

I think right now Wiseco is on the top of the list since I can get them custom sized at 100.5mm for a pretty reasonable price I think....


That's what I went with too. Took 3 weeks without the skirt coating (4wks if you want to wait for the coating). If you get a jobber price it's about $480 IIRC for the set including pistons, pins, rings, and circlips and weighed within .7gm (at least mine were). 100.5 is the absolute largest you can get away with so make sure that the builder inspects each and every cyl where the wrist pin gets inserted. At that point, you can see the cast liner thickness. However, if they're a little off then you'll need to sleeve it. Hopefully they're all consistent.

I am sorry that you are having problems with our components.

Please send them back for a FULL refund.

Quirt Crawford
www.crawfordperformance.com
Just quoting this so it doesn't disappear. All of a sudden quirt doesn't seem to want to be so helpful...

Now I think we're all gaining some 'wisdom', except for..........

I cant stand abnoxious people who feel it necessary to be little others because of their own low self esteem. What comes around goes around!

It figures you live in Jersey!

Everything in my motor will be torn down and measured and then remeasured when the time comes. The engine came out of the car yesterday and will be apart shortly. If anything isn't as it should be, I will take up quirt on his offer.
As far as the mechanic situation, my mechanic isn't a builder for porsche or lemans. He knows how to build motors, but he doesn't have experience with every imaginable piston type on planet earth. So when he encounters something he's not totally familar with (like the CP pistons) he likes to make sure that his 'hunches' are correct. Before we talked to anyone we were talking about .0035 or .0030 clearances for the pistons. We ended up using .0035 based on what we extrapolated from Quirt's 'info'. I see what you're saying, but I don't think there's any shame in asking for help if you're not 100% sure. I don't think that's a sign of someone who doesn't know what they're doing. I think that's the wisdom of someone who knows enough to double check if they're not 100% sure.


It is no secret that we go out of our way to help our customers. However, when customers take our products alter them and/or abuse them, there is little we can do help the customer and maintain any responsibility for our product. In fact, recently there have been a string of customers who have chosen to dodged responsibility all together and blame us for their lack of Subaru motor knowledge, installation methods and /or their lack of tuning skills.

Example: Here are Crawford Performance pistons, which have been coated (against our recommendations) which are being returned because “the pistons are noisy” and “there is low oil pressure” in the customers motor. NOTE: Crawford Performance did NOT build the customers block and Crawford Performance did not spec the customers block. Whoever did the work, not only installed 2 of the offset Crawford Pistons UPSIDE down! (That means the left side of the motor was correct, the right side was not). Any mechanic worth their weight should not only measure and check the pistons BEFORE they DROP-IN any pistons but also know, OIL PRESSURE is not related to the components Crawford Performance sold this customer (Rods and Pistons).
Clearly the customer’s issues were not a result of allegedly “faulty” Crawford Performance products. In fact these “problems” and many others are caused by the end customer who has little to no idea about what they are doing.

A special note to many amateur motor builders reading this: While we encourage people to learn about their Subaru’s, slapping motor pieces together from information that you may have “heard of” or read about from some online forum, does not make you a professional motor builder. STOP listening to wannabe builders and internet gurus with keyboard courage who have little to zero experience in the real world. It will save you money and headache if you get the job done by professionals who truly know & actually understand what they are doing.

In any event, even though we were not at fault, we have decided to take care of these specific customer’s requests and refund them their monies.

A word to the wise, if you are going to go and scream at the top of the mountain about how you know about piston clearances, tuning, motor building etc…you better know what you are talking about lest you just look really ignorant amongst your friends and colleagues...

http://www.crawfordperformance.com/images/improper_installation/pistons_coated_01.jpg


http://www.crawfordperformance.com/images/improper_installation/pistons_coated_02.jpg


EDIT for pictures.

....and that guy.

Did you ever find the source of your low oil pressure?

I cant stand abnoxious people who feel it necessary to be little others because of their own low self esteem. What comes around goes around!
:confused: Who exactly did I belittle??


Bboy, we never figured out the cause for the oil pressure...

was he talking to Javier or quirt?

Example: Here are Crawford Performance pistons, which have been coated (against our recommendations) which are being returned because “the pistons are noisy” and “there is low oil pressure” in the customers motor. NOTE: Crawford Performance did NOT build the customers block and Crawford Performance did not spec the customers block. Whoever did the work, not only installed 2 of the offset Crawford Pistons UPSIDE down! (That means the left side of the motor was correct, the right side was not). Any mechanic worth their weight should not only measure and check the pistons BEFORE they DROP-IN any pistons but also know, OIL PRESSURE is not related to the components Crawford Performance sold this customer (Rods and Pistons).

Quirt,

Just a simple question...how are your pistons marked for the wrist pin offset? Is there a dimple or something at the top of the piston denoting the direction? Is the offset in the directions/spec card? That seems like it would be pretty hard to mess up IMO.

I agree though, low oil pressure would not be caused from the components themselves. On the piston coating, why would it not be recommended? There's no difference if the information is correctly relayed to the machinist what you want done. If anything, it will make the P/W clerance tighter, and that doesn't seem like this guys problem, whatever it was. Maybe overly excessive bearing clearances??

Todd

Todd,
When we mark them it is done with a black marker. This is not always the case, as we fully expect the engine assembler to measure every component in the motor. I must agree with you, installing pistons that have offset pins is pretty hard to mess up.

On the piston coating, we do not recommend coating “all aluminum” forged pistons because of the large clearances they must run. If you are running a cast piston or one with a high silicone content that uses .0005” of clearance, coating the pistons will be a must. Don’t get me wrong, coating a forged piston will not hurt it in any way, its just money spent that could be better spent elsewhere.

I will also agree with your statement that his bearing clearances were probably excessive. Maybe they were not measured either?

Quirt Crawford
www.crawfordperformance.com