SPT and Warranty... worth it? [Archive]

Hondaslayer

01-26-2006, 12:34 AM

How would they be commiting fraud? I'm not saying that if someone sprays a 150 shot of nitrous and blows the damn pistons out the side of the car that they should warranty that. But if someone who has a car that pulls to the right for no reason and happens to have bigger sway bars and an anti-lift kit goes in to ask that the dealer help find out what is wrong, it does not necessarily mean the modifications have caused the problem. The dealer should not turn away from helping someone/providing the warranty coverage to someone just because they are into their car(whose hobby/passion is supporting the operation of the dealership) and may have modified a part of the vehicle. Or say the engine in someones car does blow and that person has a catback on the car. Pretty sure the catback would not have caused catastrophic engine failure. The dealer could either screw the customer by saying the aftermarket part voided the entire powertrain warranty, or they could be good about it and seek the true cause, covering it under the warranty if the aftermarket part did not cause the problem.

That was all I was saying.

A car that is pulling to the right and has a ALK installed on it is probably pulling to the right because it is no longer in proper alignment. The ALK affects the suspension geometry by moving the alignment of the lower control arm,this in turn increases the caster by a few degrees.

So, why should the dealer re-align the car to repair a problem that is caused by your tinkering (assuming the tires and struts check good)

The dealership CANNOT void your warranty, only SOA can do that. We can however deny coverage on a case by case basis.

The only ways that the vehicle warranty can be voided are:

Vehicle is declared a total loss

Vehicle is taken outside of SOA reciprocal warranty coverage area (U.S/Canada/PR) and requires repair. Repairs performed within SOA warranty coverage area will still be performed (I:E you take your car to Germany and a wheel bearing goes out at 45k you are paying for it, bring the vehicle back to the U.S and SOA will pay for it)

Vehicle is used for competitive racing (Pastrana,Block,Richard,Irish Mike,ESX etc..... = no warranty)

Last one being if your screen name is SilverSubaab, you will have no warranty coverage, period, cuz Chuck Norris said so. :p

SilverSubaab

01-26-2006, 12:52 AM

RexyGirl

01-26-2006, 09:57 AM

I don't understand, I essentially agree with what you are saying... If it is the customers fault as the problem was caused by something he did, then Subaru should not have to pay for it. [B] But if something goes wrong with the car that is a not the fault of the customer or anything he did, then Subaru should be held to their original agreement as put forth by the vehicles warranty. [COLOR=Purple]But to have a dealership look at a car that has a loud catback exhaust on it and say "We are not going to service the car for warranty work at all because of that(catback)" is abuse of their position and wrong, IMO. Like most things, situations are best handled on a case-by-case basis.

1. This is what dealers are supposed to do. True, there are dealers out there that don't, but like hondaslayer will tell you, they are the exception, not the rule.

2. If this happens, the customer should report the dealer to SOA. It has been drilled in our heads that we have to prove the mod/abuse caused the failure. If we can't determine the reason, we have to call SOA with all the facts and they make the call. They know what can and cannot cause a component to fail. Will a catback cause a failure? Haven't seen one yet....

RexyGirl

01-26-2006, 10:00 AM

YOU SHUT YOUR MOUTH YOU !!!!!!!!!!!
:p
-MGMT, SoA blackbook division,Secret Agent 00555.
:lol:

I didn't tell them how, just that we can tell......
(They think we're stupid....just trying to prove we're not) :D

CALISTIYLIN

01-26-2006, 03:20 PM

First of all, yes, we can tell....
Second, there are tell-tale signs whether a part has been removed and/or reinstalled....just like there are ways of telling if a car has been in an accident, no matter how good the body work is....

It's a secret of the trade, and if I tell you , they will have to kill me... :lol:
(but I am serious, there are ways..)

If a part has been changed like the exhaust all you have to say is a gasket or piece failed and that's why it was fixed. Also the computer can be cleared with a little know how. When there is security or ways to tell, there is always an industirious person that figures away around these measure. Just like with anything like cd copy protection and playing burned games on an Xbox. Where there is a will there is a way. I gaurentee it. Plus some of us know Subaru emplyees and a little good green smoke gets them talking around these parts :D Some things never change around this site. It is pretty depressing. iwsti,com FTW!

RexyGirl

01-26-2006, 04:19 PM

If a part has been changed like the exhaust all you have to say is a gasket or piece failed and that's why it was fixed. Also the computer can be cleared with a little know how. When there is security or ways to tell, there is always an industirious person that figures away around these measure. Just like with anything like cd copy protection and playing burned games on an Xbox. Where there is a will there is a way. I gaurentee it. Plus some of us know Subaru emplyees and a little good green smoke gets them talking around these parts :D Some things never change around this site. It is pretty depressing. iwsti,com FTW!

And if the repair was made under warranty, (the "repair" for the gasket, etc), Subaru has a record of that. They also call components back that are repaired under warranty. When they get it, they can determine whether it was failed, etc.

1. For example. A customer reinstalls the factory exhaust on the car because he is having trans problems. He's afraid the dealer might say something about his exhaust. The tech looks at the car and does his checking and determines the exhaust has been removed at some point. The customer says he previously had a problem with an exhaust leak that was fixed;
a: at another dealer--there will be a record of this if it is the truth. If not, then the exhaust has been removed and reinstalled,
B; The customer did it himself-the customer was in there tampering and could have damaged something. If it was a matter for warranty, they should have went to the dealer to have it documented and repaired

Next, don't you think Subaru knows all the ways people think they can get around the system? An ECM isn't usually going to say why a transmission failed. But the burnt tires, clutch, fluids, and other things will. ANd when those things are replaced to "cover up", that is even more of a tell tale sign

shemoves

01-26-2006, 04:27 PM

some of the stuff is decent, but you can't get some of the good stuff through SPT/STi. Actually, although more comparably expensive, you could actually do quite a bit for handling going the STi/Group N parts route...very little for power though.

Know that you should have no problems with modding if you do it right...don't automatically go with the least expensive...and don't automatically go with the most expensive. Reasearch it and you will be safe and happy.

CALISTIYLIN

01-27-2006, 12:52 AM

And if the repair was made under warranty, (the "repair" for the gasket, etc), Subaru has a record of that. They also call components back that are repaired under warranty. When they get it, they can determine whether it was failed, etc.

1. For example. A customer reinstalls the factory exhaust on the car because he is having trans problems. He's afraid the dealer might say something about his exhaust. The tech looks at the car and does his checking and determines the exhaust has been removed at some point. The customer says he previously had a problem with an exhaust leak that was fixed;
a: at another dealer--there will be a record of this if it is the truth. If not, then the exhaust has been removed and reinstalled,
B; The customer did it himself-the customer was in there tampering and could have damaged something. If it was a matter for warranty, they should have went to the dealer to have it documented and repaired

Next, don't you think Subaru knows all the ways people think they can get around the system? An ECM isn't usually going to say why a transmission failed. But the burnt tires, clutch, fluids, and other things will. ANd when those things are replaced to "cover up", that is even more of a tell tale sign

Having you car seriviced at another place besides a suby dealership does not viod the warranty and they would have no access to these records unless the customer provided them. You guys know it all. I give up, you will never change your biased opinions. You cannot look at anything without a company view. It is sad. btw my car is still stock. :D

RexyGirl

01-27-2006, 10:14 AM

Having you car seriviced at another place besides a suby dealership does not viod the warranty and they would have no access to these records unless the customer provided them. You guys know it all. I give up, you will never change your biased opinions. You cannot look at anything without a company view. It is sad. btw my car is still stock. :D

True, talking it to another place to get it maintenanced does not void your warranty, but why would you take it there if it was something covered under warranty? The warranty records can be accessed, no matter what dealer it was done at. It justs adds to the suspicion that something was done to the car.

And I have helped many people that I probably shouldn't have. But there are times when I can't get away with it any more than they can. Don't lie to me and I will try to help you out. Be upfront....it makes your life and mine alot easier.

scrwrx

01-27-2006, 12:33 PM

CALISTIYLIN

01-27-2006, 12:55 PM

True, talking it to another place to get it maintenanced does not void your warranty, but why would you take it there if it was something covered under warranty? The warranty records can be accessed, no matter what dealer it was done at. It justs adds to the suspicion that something was done to the car.

And I have helped many people that I probably shouldn't have. But there are times when I can't get away with it any more than they can. Don't lie to me and I will try to help you out. Be upfront....it makes your life and mine alot easier.

Personally I have had bad experiences of people cutting corners on work at the local dealership. The next closest dealership is 3hrs each way over a mountian road. I find when I pay for things and know the people the job gets done with care. My problem is you make it seems like if x repair is not docmented and you have a blown motor and never modded your car Subaru could deny your cliam saying they had no knowlegde of the work done and it looks like (that's speculation without PROOF) you modded your car because something was worked on that the dealer has no idea about. Also when you pay someone to fix your car it get's done a lot quicker, it's funny how that works. Not saying all dealerships are like this, just mine is and do to my location I have no other viable alrenatives.

Just please try to look at it from the eyes of a person that works really hard for their money, bought and expensive car (expensive to me) and takes car of it and does not mod it. Your opinion and clearly biased views are not comforting to the new owner. And it's ALL OVER THIS FORUM. There is 3 to 4 of you that seem to live to post in this particualr subject and when new owners come here to see how Subaru handles warranty claims and this paints a very sad picture. But that is my perception and mine alone.

It's also funny that Subaru takes such a hard line with modifications when their advertising and marketing encourage and glorify it. Eveything almost I see about Subaru is modding it or racing it in regards to my model. Not many people buy the car for liesure Sunday drives with the family in the country. It is a purpose built car is it not? My car even came with a race emebership, do I race it, hell no, it's not for me. But when kids start modding these cars is Subaru really surprised? Should they cover other people's screw ups and lack of knowlegde that caused the damage, no. I believe there is a middle ground of grey some where in the black and white view. I know I could be logical as heck and make total sense but after years of working for Subaru or your affiliation with them has engrained otherwise into your brain.

RexyGirl

01-27-2006, 02:33 PM

so rexy girl basically what your saying is that if i get a cat-back and something happens to my car and they find out that it isnt related they have to fix it? i really want a perrin dual tip but still want to check with my dealer but if a subaru employee (seems like you are; i skimmed through) says that then i feel better

Yes, that is what I am saying. They have to prove the modification caused the failure. Like I stated in one of the above posts, I have never seen a car come in with a problem due to aftermarket exhaust, or a claim being denied because of only an aftermarket exhaust.

RexyGirl

01-27-2006, 02:50 PM

Personally I have had bad experiences of people cutting corners on work at the local dealership. The next closest dealership is 3hrs each way over a mountian road. I find when I pay for things and know the people the job gets done with care. 1. My problem is you make it seems like if x repair is not docmented and you have a blown motor and never modded your car Subaru could deny your cliam saying they had no knowlegde of the work done and it looks like (that's speculation without PROOF) you modded your car because something was worked on that the dealer has no idea about. Also when you pay someone to fix your car it get's done a lot quicker, it's funny how that works. Not saying all dealerships are like this, just mine is and do to my location I have no other viable alrenatives.

2. Just please try to look at it from the eyes of a person that works really hard for their money, bought and expensive car (expensive to me) and takes car of it and does not mod it. Your opinion and clearly biased views are not comforting to the new owner. And it's ALL OVER THIS FORUM. 3. There is 3 to 4 of you that seem to live to post in this particualr subject and when new owners come here to see how Subaru handles warranty claims and this paints a very sad picture. But that is my perception and mine alone.

It's also funny that 4. Subaru takes such a hard line with modifications when their advertising and marketing encourage and glorify it. Eveything almost I see about Subaru is modding it or racing it in regards to my model. Not many people buy the car for liesure Sunday drives with the family in the country. It is a purpose built car is it not? My car even came with a race emebership, do I race it, hell no, it's not for me. But when kids start modding these cars is Subaru really surprised? Should they cover other people's screw ups and lack of knowlegde that caused the damage, no. 5. I believe there is a middle ground of grey some where in the black and white view. I know I could be logical as heck and make total sense but after years of working for Subaru or your affiliation with them has engrained otherwise into your brain.

1. It is your responsibilty to keep records of everything done to your vehicle. This way, if something does happen, you have proof that either it wasn't your fault, or it was the fault of who ever worked on it last (be it the independent shop or dealer) If you pay someone to work on your car, and something goes wrong related to that repair, if you don't have proof that someone else worked on it, you are going to pay for the repair. You have no recourse with the person who originally did the work. That's for your own protection.

2. If you paid all the money for your car, take care of it, don't race it or mod it, why wouldn't you exercise your right to get something repaired under warranty? Why would you want to pay for something if it's covered?

3. We come here to post to answer peoples questions and state facts. Facts we know to be true because we live and breathe them everyday. You will also find that the 3 or 4 people you speak of also have given a great many people on this forum good information on topics other than this. (and to mess around with people :D )

4. It's called advertising, and like most people, you probably didn't read the fine print. Not only do automakers advertise like this, but other products do as well. I wonder what would happen if the Jeep (I think) owner towed his vehicle into the dealership and wanted it covered under warranty because he drove it in water like the commercial. Subaru is not the only manufacturer to advertise this way, and they are all the same when it comes to warranty issues and this matter. Some are worse than Subaru.

5. Please tell me what you mean by this. By the way it is worded, I seriously do not understand what you are trying to say. (serious, not trying to be smart)

CALISTIYLIN

01-27-2006, 04:09 PM

1. It is your responsibilty to keep records of everything done to your vehicle. This way, if something does happen, you have proof that either it wasn't your fault, or it was the fault of who ever worked on it last (be it the independent shop or dealer) If you pay someone to work on your car, and something goes wrong related to that repair, if you don't have proof that someone else worked on it, you are going to pay for the repair. You have no recourse with the person who originally did the work. That's for your own protection.

2. If you paid all the money for your car, take care of it, don't race it or mod it, why wouldn't you exercise your right to get something repaired under warranty? Why would you want to pay for something if it's covered?

3. We come here to post to answer peoples questions and state facts. Facts we know to be true because we live and breathe them everyday. You will also find that the 3 or 4 people you speak of also have given a great many people on this forum good information on topics other than this. (and to mess around with people :D )

4. It's called advertising, and like most people, you probably didn't read the fine print. Not only do automakers advertise like this, but other products do as well. I wonder what would happen if the Jeep (I think) owner towed his vehicle into the dealership and wanted it covered under warranty because he drove it in water like the commercial. Subaru is not the only manufacturer to advertise this way, and they are all the same when it comes to warranty issues and this matter. Some are worse than Subaru.

5. Please tell me what you mean by this. By the way it is worded, I seriously do not understand what you are trying to say. (serious, not trying to be smart)

Point 1 makes no sense, if I keep my records or if I don't keep m records doesn't make any difference. If there is a problem related to a repair done by a 3rd party mechanic I take it back to the shop where the repair was done and take the problem up with them, I would never want Subaru to fix another mechanics screw up.

Point 2. I said I have had a personal experience with my local dealership that would make me NEVER take it there for even something as simple as putting air in the tires. It's the point of it all. I want someone working on my 35k car that cares about what they are doing, unfortunately at my Suby dealership that is not the case. So YES I will pay for repairs to have someone fix my car correctly then let some jerkoff at the local dealership that is high off of pot work on my car and proceed to cause more damage (actually happened to me) I was telling the mechanic how he screwed up, how does the work? If you can't understand this I don't know what to tell you.

Point 3. I don't care how many people you think you help, it takes 5 minutes to read your opinion and see how very biased it is, that is my oipinion and I have stated such in the past and so have others. Whether you car to believe us or listen to us is up to you.

Point 4. Excuses, the STi is advertisied as a street race car and comes with a race membership, so when damage is cause by racing and subaru performance parts installed correctly the cannot deny these claims. Mazda had a class action lawsuit against them and the owners won.

Point 5. I am saying you take a stance that is black or white rather than trying to judge each case differntly. Anyone that has an aftermarket part you make it seem like this will void all warranties which it will not. I am saying things need to be looked at by a case by case basis and you need to leave out how the guy before me lied about his mods and tried to pull one over on you.

Like I said I could make points and sense all day and you will NEVER see it from my (and many others) point of view. I haven't been back to this site in 6 months because of this crap and I don't want to continie it any more. We agree that we disagree. My attitude does not hurt the site or new users opinions of this site and Subaru, your's does in my opinion. But you will never see that. Let's just end this shall we, I will just conceed and say I am stupid and don't know what I am talking about. Does that work for you?

RexyGirl

01-27-2006, 04:40 PM

Point one: Somewhere, one of us has misunderstood something, so let's drop this one

Point 2: Forget it...this one is going nowhere

Point 3: My opinion is NOT biased. If you carefully read my threads, you will find just the opposite...I have stuck up for Subaru AND customers....(keep reading)

Point 4: Subaru can and does deny warranty claims based on racing. (modifications are another story taken on a case by case basis) It specifically states IN YOUR OWNERS MANUAL that damage done to your vehicle from any kind of racing is not a matter for warranty. If you carefully read the insert with the SCCA application, (Are they still giving these out??) it states, "Subaru of America (SOA) is not affiliated with the SCCA, and SOA does not in any way participate in, evaluate, condone or assume any responsibilities for the activities and events of the SCCA or any of it's affiliates. All SUbaru vehicles sold by SOA are designed and built for normal driving conditions. The Subaru Limited Warranty, as well as the Subaru Added Security Program, excludes damage resulting from participation in competition or racing events. See Subaru Warranty and Maintenance booklet for further details". This was given out as a promotional thing to get people discounts/magazines, etc from SCCA. Signing and returning that form does not mean you can show up at any event and race your car. That's not what it was for.

Also, I would love to see more information on the Mazda lawsuit. Mazda is harder on customers with modifications and abuse than Subaru is. I know, the dealer I work for is also a Mazda dealer, and I have never heard of such a lawsuit.

Point 5: If you keep searching, you will find a thread that I started stating that "You're warranty CANNOT be voided"... We obviously agree on this one, but you must have just skimmed my posts and didn't read them thoroughly because otherwise you would have known that. THIS IS WHAT I HAVE BEEN SAYING ALL ALONG....I have also mentioned it several times in this thread alone.

And I do go on a case by case basis. I have two cars in here right now I could use as an example. One I tried to help, the other I did not. Both had the same issue. But I have a biased opinion so it doesn't matter.....

CALISTIYLIN

01-27-2006, 04:50 PM

shakes head.

Knotsure

01-27-2006, 06:53 PM

Rexygirl - I have always found your post to be unbiased and informative. I have also learned by reading these posts that the people that gripe about a warranty claim denied have almost always had information in other post that demonstrates things like they beat the crap out of the cars. Keep up the great work. Calistilin - you seem like a nice enough person, but I think you are seeing what you want to see to validate your position vs. seeing what is really being said. Why not wait and see if you ever have a problem and see how it is handled yourself vs. going by partial story posts? Rexygirl, Hondaslayer and Mike Weaver have all been very helpful to me in their posts. I'm not sure if all work at dealers or not, but maybe try reading them with your glass half full (have fun with that one - I know you will)!

bo9877

01-28-2006, 02:36 PM

Point 1: The Subaru Warranty Guide included with all new Subarus states that it is the owner's responsibility to maintain records of of all work done to the vehicle. This includes both maintenance and repair work. It is entirely possible that an improper 3rd party repair could result in damage and it might not be something immediately obvious to someone other than a dealership technician. It is commendable that you would take up an improper repair with a 3rd party shop if you knew they caused the damage, but what if you did not know they caused the damage? You would take it to a Subaru store assuming it to be warranty. The dealership would diagnose and would see that 1) the car had been wrenched on and 2) that the work was done improperly, leading to the failure. Knowing what the 3rd party shop would enable the dealer and SOA to make a more accurate determination as to what was done to cause the failure. That receipt also would be your protection if you had to take the 3rd party shop to court. The Subaru rep and/or the dealership technician could also tstify in court on your behalf against the 3rd party shop. It is to your benefit that they have the most accurate information.

As far as maintenance goes, let's say that your engine blows at 51,000 and there is no evidence of abuse. Let's also say that you did the oil changes yourself and had a 30K done by a 3rd party shop. The main thing the dealer and SOA is going to ask you for is proof that regular oil changes were done and that the 30K was done. Without receipts (oil and filters bought plus an oil change log, 30K invoice, etc.) to back up that you upheld your end of the agreement, Subaru is not obligated to repair your engine under warranty. A warranty is an agreement between you and the manufacturer: Subaru agrees to repair your car free of charge as long as you agree to maintain your car according to the maintenance schedule and to maintain proof of said maintenance. Maintaining records is for your protection, period. When it comes down to it, you have to have proof of work done. If not, you run the risk of having a legit warranty repair denied on a technicality. It's not a hard thing to keep an envelope of receipts, so why not do it?

Point 2: If something like you experienced happens, then the dealership (not SOA) would be liable to fix what they broke. It sucks that you had a bad experience, but the vast majority (probably at least 95%) of Subaru dealership techs are good, qualified, experienced techs. If something like you experienced happens, take it up with dealership management. If that gets you nowhere, call SOA and CALMLY explain what happened...they will be the mediator between you and the dealership. The problem with 3rd party shops is that there is a greater chance of getting someone who doesn't know what they are doing. They do not attend the required tech classes that dealer techs are (they have to go to class every year even after they are fully certified) or they may not have a whole lot of experience with Subarus (or not a lot with the new ones). I lost count of the number of Subaru engines and trannies I saw because an improper oil change was done at Jiffy Lube, Wal-Mart, Sears, or any number of places (number one screwup: damaging the tranny filter thinking it was the engine filter; #2: draining the engine oil and refilling the front diff (or vice versa)).

Point 3: rexygirl and others tell you what you can expect based on past experience. If you don't like what they're saying, then so be it...they can't help it if you don't want to hear what the MOST LIKELY outcome is. The fact is that dealers will go to bat for their customers if they have a good relationship, even if their case is on shaky ground. Could a dealer just do any repair they wanted under warranty, even abuse cases? Sure, but SOA would catch them and charge them back, or worst case pull their franchise. No service advisor or manager in their right mind would take this chance.

Point 4: In every automotive corporation, there is often a disconnect between marketing/advertising and service. Advertising tries to create a feel or an emotion for the car or the brand, and does not necessarily show what the car is specifically intended for. In the case of the WRX, the theme is "rally-bred," meaning that it is durable, safe, and can go fast. In none of the commercials did they show a production car on a race track or at a drag strip. The WRX and STi are advertised as race-bred performance cars, not race cars. When it somes down to it, you have to go by what is in the terms of the warranty. Also, the SCCA membership is not a race membership; it is a membership to a club. Racing is only one activity in this club and isn't required, and if you want to race you usually have to pay extra. Besides, the point is now moot since Subaru no longer includes an SCCA membership in a WRX or STi. And not all Subaru performance parts have a warranty; several of them come with an off-road use only clause. They can and will deny claims because of racing or non-covered performance parts, and they are completely withing their rights in doing so. If you are going to race, you need to understand and accept the possible consequences before doing so.

Point 5: These things ARE looked at on a case-by-case basis. Many dealerships will call their service rep in any modded/abuse case and let them make the call. Reps and dealerships will take into account many things, maintenance history and relationship with the dealer included. Your personal attitude and whether or not you tell the truth often goes a long way in determining whether you're going to get help...it may not be warranty but it could be goodwill. Now, if you come into the dealership without a relationship with them, your car modded to hell or with time slips in it, and you are rude, then do not expect to get anything but a denial. If you have been to them before and have a good relationship with them and are courteous, they may make a case for you with the rep. Even so, goodwill assistance is not guaranteed.

CALISTIYLIN

01-28-2006, 06:05 PM

HAHAHAHA how long did that take you? LMAO. Than you :)

Knotsure

01-29-2006, 11:07 AM

well written bo!

armand1

01-29-2006, 11:19 AM

Cali, you're welcome to state your opinion, but with unhelpful posts like #36, you're just wasting everyone's time/bandwidth. Please either post constructively or find another board.

techy101

01-29-2006, 07:14 PM

I can also personally vouch for rexygirl. She works at the dealership I used to go to when I lived in FL, and she has gone WAY out of her way to help me out. My first time in there was after I'd been turned away by another dealership about an issue with my charging system not working properly. I was up front and honest with her about what had been done to the car, and all of the non-OEM electronics that were in it. I walked out a day or two later with a new alternator under warrenty. She put her butt on the line and went to bat for me to get a new alternator installed when she really didn't have to.

If I'd gone in there all pissed off, and trying to lie about what was in the car, I highly doubt that she would have even bothered to take the time to think about going out of her way to help me.

Also, every bit of service I had done after that was done there, and she always went out of her way to treat me right, and I had very good work done on my car there.

People buy a subaru, think they can trash it, and then get all pissed off when Subaru doesn't fix it for them for free. I think that every darn time I went into that dealership they had at least one WRX in there with a broken tranny. And it sure wasn't from people taking their leasurely sunday drives, and it's not because the tranny is a POS. It's because people think they can beat the hell out of the car and expect it to work great. It doesn't matter if you have an Enzo, if you go dropping the clutch over and over you will damage things. People need to learn that if you want to play, you've got to be willing to pay and quit trying to pawn your dumbass driving off on the company who made the product.

/rant

RexyGirl

01-29-2006, 10:37 PM

:o :o :o :o

Thanks, all of you, for backing me up...

Cata

01-29-2006, 11:47 PM

this is a very informative thread......

but Rexygirl, you said that you said you havening seen anyone has a problem with Catback exhaust system. i am living in Canada, I got a CEL light and the dealer that i am going to checked said that MY04 WRX has a O2 sensor faillure. And the dealer said the faillure is caused by my Catback system
..... they didn't void my warranty in this case but i guess they are denied, they suggested to me that they will repair my O2 sensor unless i put my stock catback on.........

so my queston are?

1. do i still have warrenty at this part of my car since you said the warrenty cannot be void according to your sticky thread?

2. since you works at a dealer..........do you know what caused this CEL problem?

I just want to get some of your opinions at this matter. thanks....

RexyGirl

01-30-2006, 12:14 AM

A cat back exhaust CAN damage the oxygen sensor, and therefore is not covered by warranty. You didn't void your entire warranty, just the warranty on the oxygen sensor. (If you keep the catback on) I would suspect that if you put your factory exhaust back on, reset the light and drive it, the light would probably not return. You can also search this forum for a "fix" to elimintate the light coming on for the oxygen sensor with the catback..

The CEL came on because, basically, the oxygen sensor cannot read properly with the catback exhaust.

CALISTIYLIN

01-30-2006, 03:08 PM

Cali, you're welcome to state your opinion, but with unhelpful posts like #36, you're just wasting everyone's time/bandwidth. Please either post constructively or find another board.

I thought it was quite long winded but I thanked him for his response. Don't know why you have a problem with that. ;)

CALISTIYLIN

01-30-2006, 03:11 PM

:o :o :o :o

Thanks, all of you, for backing me up...

Same 4-5 people backing you up as before. Your click obviously sticks close together. I know 15-20 people locally with Subies and all see your's and the crews posts the same. So should I get them to post so we can see how many people on each side we both have? No because that gets us no where. But to have 15-20 people locally that all own subies agree with me, I wonder how many others there are in other cities since my area is rural and small. Not trying to start a war, just stating my opinion.

CALISTIYLIN

01-30-2006, 03:12 PM

People buy a subaru, think they can trash it, and then get all pissed off when Subaru doesn't fix it for them for free. I think that every darn time I went into that dealership they had at least one WRX in there with a broken tranny. And it sure wasn't from people taking their leasurely sunday drives, and it's not because the tranny is a POS. It's because people think they can beat the hell out of the car and expect it to work great. It doesn't matter if you have an Enzo, if you go dropping the clutch over and over you will damage things. People need to learn that if you want to play, you've got to be willing to pay and quit trying to pawn your dumbass driving off on the company who made the product.

/rant

This is the type of generalization that us responsable owners get so mad when we are lumped into this group. Some of us do not mod or cars and take very good care of them. I am one of these people. Stop stereo typing.

MomoWRX

01-30-2006, 04:19 PM

Go to Town Motors in NJ if you have any Problems with your stuff...They are a mod friendly dealer. Ask for Greg if he is still the manager there. I have been to 5 different dealers and they are the best with customer service and coverage.

P.S. they should cover you with your planned mods

CALISTIYLIN

01-30-2006, 04:32 PM

MomoWRX

01-30-2006, 04:54 PM

Sweet, that is only like 3000 miles each way.

:huh: In his original post he said he was near Rye.....Is that Rye, NY? Cause if it is then it is only like a 40 min drive to the dealer in NJ. If it is in a different state than my bad

scrwrx

01-30-2006, 05:14 PM

MomoWRX

01-30-2006, 06:32 PM

there is a mech fix...do a search for it and "spark plug anti foulers" if i remeber correctly

CALISTIYLIN

01-30-2006, 07:27 PM

:huh: In his original post he said he was near Rye.....Is that Rye, NY? Cause if it is then it is only like a 40 min drive to the dealer in NJ. If it is in a different state than my bad

My mistake, sorry.

techy101

01-30-2006, 10:21 PM

This is the type of generalization that us responsible owners get so mad when we are lumped into this group. Some of us do not mod or cars and take very good care of them. I am one of these people. Stop stereo typing.

I happen to be one of the responsible owners, With my "Grocery-mobile" (Forester). But fact of the matter is that those people (and there are a ton of them) who aren't responsible that make up that stereotype are the ones who cause problems for the rest of us. The ones who try to cheat the system, lie about things, and drive carelessly. They're the reason the insurance on a WRX (or STI) is so high. They're the reason why when you or I go to a dealership, we have to fight for something that should honestly be covered under warranty. It sucks, but it's the truth.

And I'm not part of a clique. I've worked with 7 Subaru dealerships around the country as I've moved, and Rexygirl's was the by far the best I've been to. There are a lot of crappy dealerships, but there are some good ones with good people, and it's not fair to lump them all into one group, just as it wasn't fair of me to lump everyone in here into the irresponsible owners group. I wouldn't be defending rexygirl if I didn't have good reason. And that good reason is that she personally went to bat for me, and I've seen her do it for a number of other people. Going way out of her way to do things that 95% of other dealerships would laugh at.

So unless you've actually worked with her, I think that you too need to stop stereotyping.

CALISTIYLIN

01-31-2006, 01:20 PM

I happen to be one of the responsible owners, With my "Grocery-mobile" (Forester). But fact of the matter is that those people (and there are a ton of them) who aren't responsible that make up that stereotype are the ones who cause problems for the rest of us. The ones who try to cheat the system, lie about things, and drive carelessly. They're the reason the insurance on a WRX (or STI) is so high. They're the reason why when you or I go to a dealership, we have to fight for something that should honestly be covered under warranty. It sucks, but it's the truth.

And I'm not part of a clique. I've worked with 7 Subaru dealerships around the country as I've moved, and Rexygirl's was the by far the best I've been to. There are a lot of crappy dealerships, but there are some good ones with good people, and it's not fair to lump them all into one group, just as it wasn't fair of me to lump everyone in here into the irresponsible owners group. I wouldn't be defending rexygirl if I didn't have good reason. And that good reason is that she personally went to bat for me, and I've seen her do it for a number of other people. Going way out of her way to do things that 95% of other dealerships would laugh at.

So unless you've actually worked with her, I think that you too need to stop stereotyping.

I can see your point. It does make me mad though because I am young (not really, I am 28) and have this car people stereo type the crap out of me like I am some F&F idiot and it pisses me off. I wasn't stereo typing her imo I was reading a lot of the threads she posted in and I based my decision off of these posts. Seems some of you had some real world experience with her and she is helpful, that is great to hear but I guess as someone said I see the glass half empty because I see the negativity and that is what sticks out in my mind.

Hondaslayer

01-31-2006, 01:37 PM

I can see your point. It does make me mad though because I am young (not really, I am 28) and have this car people stereo type the crap out of me like I am some F&F idiot and it pisses me off. I wasn't stereo typing her imo I was reading a lot of the threads she posted in and I based my decision off of these posts. Seems some of you had some real world experience with her and she is helpful, that is great to hear but I guess as someone said I see the glass half empty because I see the negativity and that is what sticks out in my mind.

Same 4-5 people backing you up as before. Your click obviously sticks close together. I know 15-20 people locally with Subies and all see your's and the crews posts the same. So should I get them to post so we can see how many people on each side we both have? No because that gets us no where. But to have 15-20 people locally that all own subies agree with me, I wonder how many others there are in other cities since my area is rural and small. Not trying to start a war, just stating my opinion.

Looks like a stereotype to me.

CALISTIYLIN

01-31-2006, 07:49 PM

Looks like a stereotype to me.

I knew you would chime in somewhere just to be argumentative.

Hondaslayer

01-31-2006, 08:35 PM

I knew you would chime in somewhere just to be argumentative.

Pretty ironic coming from a person that has 14 posts and all 14 posts are argumentative......

CALISTIYLIN

02-01-2006, 12:52 AM

Pretty ironic coming from a person that has 14 posts and all 14 posts are argumentative......

You see it as an argument I see it as sharing ideas. No one has been calling anyone names and while we agree on some things we disagree on others. Please don't make me out to be the trouble starter I am not.

Hondaslayer

02-01-2006, 09:13 AM

You see it as an argument I see it as sharing ideas. No one has been calling anyone names and while we agree on some things we disagree on others. Please don't make me out to be the trouble starter I am not.

Well, as I stated you have 14 posts and none of them are anywhere else except for the warranty forum. Not a single post in General,Newbies/FAQ's etc.......

armand1

02-01-2006, 04:19 PM

... Please don't make me out to be the trouble starter I am not.
:lol:

Mikes05STi

02-01-2006, 05:43 PM

Ok, I need to break out the Goretex and umbrella to keep dry from this pissing contest. :lol:
rexygirl,
Thank you for all your information about the warranty. I have heard some other horror stories about claims getting denied on technicalities. I will most definitely have to follow your advice when I go establish a rapport with my local dealer.
My issue is that I'm going to pick up an '05 STi this Friday. It has 9000 miles on it and is still under warranty. The car lot said the P.O was in his mid-thirties, which generally indicates that it was more babied than abused (which I very well hope so). It is still completely stock though (and I plan on keeping it that way until the warranty is gone). What I'm deathly afraid of is if he did something to it that would cause a claim denial, I'll be paying for his inability to take care of it. How do you get around that???? I'd like to take the car to the dealer and have them give it a once over to make sure nothing is overly worn. It does have new tires on it (as I'm told that the stock stickys only last about that long anyway, they ARE really soft and sticky though).
You seem pretty knowledgeable about this sort of thing so don't be surprised if you get a PM from me with more questions! Where can I find a DETAILED manual/rule book of what the warranty covers and what will deny a claim?

Kean

02-01-2006, 07:08 PM

I have heard some other horror stories about claims getting denied on technicalities. I will most definitely have to follow your advice when I go establish a rapport with my local dealer
Mike, A lot of members will make generalizations after reading through some of these “horror stories”. I think it’s somewhat natural to assume most people are giving you a basically accurate account of their own experiences. However, you need to realize that you may not be getting the whole story. There have been several members who were found to have conveniently left out relevant info (i.e. abuse/modifications) and/or blatantly lied when voicing their complaints. I’m sure there are people who have legitimate gripes, but we need to look at these cases individually and objectively. …….unfortunately, you will always have certain individuals who love to interject their anti-SOA rhetoric regardless of the situation.

Mikes05STi

02-01-2006, 11:36 PM

Mike, A lot of members will make generalizations after reading through some of these “horror stories”. I think it’s somewhat natural to assume most people are giving you a basically accurate account of their own experiences. However, you need to realize that you may not be getting the whole story. There have been several members who were found to have conveniently left out relevant info (i.e. abuse/modifications) and/or blatantly lied when voicing their complaints. I’m sure there are people who have legitimate gripes, but we need to look at these cases individually and objectively. …….unfortunately, you will always have certain individuals who love to interject their anti-SOA rhetoric regardless of the situation.
Kean,
I understand that. In another thread, there is a template that has information users can put conerning problems they had with their car, if they filed a warranty claim, and whether their claim was denied and why. I'm sure you know which one. Anyway, it also asked what mods they had and some had put in that they had this mod or that (CAI, catback, etc.) and I'm like, yeah, no wonder those guys' warranty claims got denied. I have no plans of modding my STi until the warranty is out (plus my 73 240Z is getting her RB25DET before anything gets done). This will be my shared duty daily driver. I am paying a lot of money for this car and the warranty is fairly important.
Plus, what Rexygirl said made a lot of sense.

Hondaslayer

02-02-2006, 09:42 AM

240Z with a RB25??

Post pics when it's done! :)

Mikes05STi

02-02-2006, 10:18 AM

240Z with a RB25??

Post pics when it's done! :)
Yep. I won't be the first to do it. There is even one (a 260Z) with an RB26DETT that runs 11s.
http://www.zcar.com/month/2002/05/
http://www.geocities.com/stonehac/

He says there is lots of wheelspin through 1st and 2nd in the 1/4 (even with those wide back tires :eek: ). If he could get all the power to the ground, he'd be running low 10s or high 9s.

But my engine swap won't be for a couple of years. The STi and house (if I can get it next year) expenses/payments will have to take priority. :(

shoWRoX

02-02-2006, 10:45 AM

I had a post, but seems you all have it covered.

I think too many dealers shoot themselves in the foot with warranty denials, especially when it comes to "performance" or "sports" cars.
Also, warranty is NOT applied equallly which means there is a LOT of leeway as to how to handle a warranty claim. Some service writers simply know how to work things better than others.
I've encountered service writers who look at the smallest thing just to assert their "authority". It's not impressive.

It's pretty obvious when someone mods extensively and ruins something.
The manufacturer/dealer should not have to fix that for free.
However, there is too much of this "owner" abuse crap thrown out, and blaming the customer for driving too hard.
If the car is build to perform as a performance/sport vehicle, then the parts should handle it. There are known weak parts in the Subaru driveline, and finding ways to deny warranty claims doesn't make the company look good.

T

Kean

02-02-2006, 12:39 PM

I think too many dealers shoot themselves in the foot with warranty denials, especially when it comes to "performance" or "sports" cars. Although I agree the level of service is typically not consistent between dealerships, I can also see why they would try to deny claims for obvious abuse and/or modifications. ……modifications that obviously affect the failed component(s). If they are denying claims based on non-related modifications or no proof of abuse, I believe SOA should step in and take care of the consumer. However, we need to realize that when we read these “claim denial” stories on the web, we are only seeing one side. …..I would also wager that more claims are approved than are denied (we just don’t read about them).

Also, warranty is NOT applied equallly which means there is a LOT of leeway as to how to handle a warranty claim. Some service writers simply know how to work things better than others.
I've encountered service writers who look at the smallest thing just to assert their "authority". It's not impressive. Dealerships are like any other business. Although they may all say “Subaru” on the outside, the level of service can and will differ depending on ownership, management, training, experience, skill, etc. The key is to find a good one and stick with them. I’ve encountered this with all the various manufacturers/dealers I’ve dealt with over the past 22 years of vehicle ownership. Also, I think it’s important to point out that the service writers are not the final decision makers. I would immediately get SOA involved if I felt I was being bullied by one.

It's pretty obvious when someone mods extensively and ruins something.
The manufacturer/dealer should not have to fix that for free. Then you also agree that the manufacturer should also deny claims when it’s obvious that the owner tried to cover up a past modification? …..or denies abuse when it’s evident?

However, there is too much of this "owner" abuse crap thrown out, and blaming the customer for driving too hard.
If the car is build to perform as a performance/sport vehicle, then the parts should handle it. There are known weak parts in the Subaru driveline, and finding ways to deny warranty claims doesn't make the company look good. …I don’t buy this argument. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out that if you abuse a car, parts will prematurely wear and/or fail. There is a big difference between driving a car properly and abusing it. ….why should SOA pick up the tab in these cases?

Take a look around the forums. A day doesn’t go by that you don’t see obvious examples of people modifying and/or abusing their cars. …..and some of those same people are the one’s who complain when their claim is denied.

shoWRoX

02-02-2006, 01:17 PM

Although I agree the level of service is typically not consistent between dealerships, I can also see why they would try to deny claims for obvious abuse and/or modifications. ……modifications that obviously affect the failed component(s). If they are denying claims based on non-related modifications or no proof of abuse, I believe SOA should step in and take care of the consumer. However, we need to realize that when we read these “claim denial” stories on the web, we are only seeing one side. …..I would also wager that more claims are approved than are denied (we just don’t read about them).

Dealerships are like any other business. Although they may all say “Subaru” on the outside, the level of service can and will differ depending on ownership, management, training, experience, skill, etc. The key is to find a good one and stick with them. I’ve encountered this with all the various manufacturers/dealers I’ve dealt with over the past 22 years of vehicle ownership. Also, I think it’s important to point out that the service writers are not the final decision makers. I would immediately get SOA involved if I felt I was being bullied by one.

Then you also agree that the manufacturer should also deny claims when it’s obvious that the owner tried to cover up a past modification? …..or denies abuse when it’s evident?

…I don’t buy this argument. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out that if you abuse a car, parts will prematurely wear and/or fail. There is a big difference between driving a car properly and abusing it. ….why should SOA pick up the tab in these cases?

Take a look around the forums. A day doesn’t go by that you don’t see obvious examples of people modifying and/or abusing their cars. …..and some of those same people are the one’s who complain when their claim is denied.

Kean, we were doing so well until the ending part of your comments.
Just kidding. :)

Let me address your questions.

"Then you also agree that the manufacturer should also deny claims when it’s obvious that the owner tried to cover up a past modification? …..or denies abuse when it’s evident?"

That's 2 different questions. The first one, I would say that IF the modification caused the problem/s, then of course the manufacturer should not be held to repair under warranty. That is also to say, that a warranty claim on a transmission problem shouldn't be denied if the customer has a cold air intake, UNLESS the dealer can demonstrate that the modification caused the trans problem.

As far as the "abuse" portion, what is "evident"? How does a dealer know the abuse is "evident"? There have been numerous owners who have driven their cars normally, who don't do full throttle standing starts, and yet have had tranny/clutch problems denied warranty service.
NO, that is not fair.

"…I don’t buy this argument. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out that if you abuse a car, parts will prematurely wear and/or fail. There is a big difference between driving a car properly and abusing it. ….why should SOA pick up the tab in these cases?"

This goes with the "abuse" question.
So, you don't buy the argument that a vehicle designed for performance driving should be built to handle performance driving?
That's what you are disagreeing with, as that is my point.
You imply that driving a sports car aggressively is "abuse". I don't buy that argument. Porsche build sports cars and they are designed to be capable of handling the type of driving they are designed for.
The biggest issue here, of abuse, really concerns the clutch problems, even in the higher performing STI. Evidence shows that when a proper clutch is installed, that can hold up to the cars power and performance capability, there isn't a clutch problem. Case in point, they need to install a better clutch that works more in line with the cars intended performance.

You say driven "properly". For the most part, I agree with you that there are proper ways to drive a sports car and there are proper ways to drive a non sports car. I would expect a WRX or STI or Legacy GT to a different level of "proper" as compared to a standard Impreza, or Legacy sedan, or Chevy Malibu. The level of "proper" for an STI should be beyond what is proper for a Camry, Accord, or Altima.

I agree that those who mod extensively and put a hole in their pistons and then expect Subaru to fix it, are being VERY unrealistic an unfair. I've had that position for a long time. However, let's not simply assume that all problems on cars are caused by abuse or improper driving. That assumption is the problem I was addressing. There is too much of that.
There doesn't appear to be a good measure of what "proper" is.
Does a 3000rpm drop clutch standing start mean the car is abused?
What if it's launched at 6000rpm? Should the driver only take turns at the posted speed limit? What if the driver takes the corners doing 30mph over every time, thus putting great stress on the suspension and driveline?

That's the problem. The variable is the service writer and the technician who feel the need to find a way out of warranty. It isn't fair to blame the customer because a customer before him came in with a similar problem and told the service writer how hard he drives his car. I simply stay away from dealers like that. In a free market, that's how we exact change, by not giving our money to companies we feel don't deserve it.

T

Kean

02-02-2006, 05:19 PM

Kean, we were doing so well until the ending part of your comments.
Just kidding. :) …we still are. ;)

"Then you also agree that the manufacturer should also deny claims when it’s obvious that the owner tried to cover up a past modification? …..or denies abuse when it’s evident?"

That's 2 different questions. The first one, I would say that IF the modification caused the problem/s, then of course the manufacturer should not be held to repair under warranty. That is also to say, that a warranty claim on a transmission problem shouldn't be denied if the customer has a cold air intake, UNLESS the dealer can demonstrate that the modification caused the trans problem.

As far as the "abuse" portion, what is "evident"? How does a dealer know the abuse is "evident"? There have been numerous owners who have driven their cars normally, who don't do full throttle standing starts, and yet have had tranny/clutch problems denied warranty service.
NO, that is not fair. Actually, the questions are basically the same. Whether it’s tampering or abuse, I believe SOA would have just cause to deny a claim in either case. …as far as evidence, signs of abuse can be identified by a tech the same as tampering. From a scorched clutch, shaved gears, bent parts, etc. I’m sure Hondaslayer or Rexy can chime in on their experiences and based on their expertise.

As for the “numerous” owners with tranny claims being denied, I’m curious where you’re deriving this info from…

"…I don’t buy this argument. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out that if you abuse a car, parts will prematurely wear and/or fail. There is a big difference between driving a car properly and abusing it. ….why should SOA pick up the tab in these cases?"

This goes with the "abuse" question.
So, you don't buy the argument that a vehicle designed for performance driving should be built to handle performance driving? That's what you are disagreeing with, as that is my point. ….I didn’t say that. Your definition of “performance driving” may be different than mine. My point is that you don’t have to abuse a vehicle to get it to perform. However, some of what people consider “normal” performance driving is obvious abuse. …..here are just a couple of recent examples of what I mean:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=931709
Okay, basically, I got a 05 STI, works great most of the time, but sometimes when I go from first I shift into second extremely fast, less then a quarter of a second probly, I have the factory "Short Throw Shifter" :mad: I get grindage sometimes, what the heck is goin on?

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=932653
O.K. So last week I feel like being a drag racer on the back road to work. My clutch has always smelled if I slip high in the revs,..and I expect that from a high HP car. I have burnt many a cars clutches in the past and lived with the smell for a day or so. It's been a week now and I still get smell while driving normal. Today I start the car by remote and 10 minutes go by,before I get to the car,.when I walk up to it I'm smelling burnt clutch. ***!??

So question is,.can something have fell out of adjustment with the clutch? I've always had the problem with the smell with very little effort from the slip. I'm thinking of going to the dealership, but I hate anyone I don't trust with my very life to touch my car. Actually,.I have had years of hardship when having warranty work done,...the car always comes out of the shop with new problems. I only use them if it's something I can't handle on my own.

The car has 18K on it now,.and acts just fine,.clutch operation is normal and does not slip,..it just seems to stink non stop.

And I don't need any preaching about dos and don'ts of slipping clutches,..I had a 93 duster I ABUSED BIG TIME! Compared to how I drive the STI,..the STI has seen far less and the Duster had 120K before the clutch started to slip.

So please stick to the question.

….these people obviously have no clue.

You imply that driving a sports car aggressively is "abuse". I don't buy that argument. Porsche build sports cars and they are designed to be capable of handling the type of driving they are designed for. ….are you seriously comparing a Porshe to a Subaru? Anyhow, it was not my intention to imply that aggressive automatically equals abuse:

a•buse
1. To use wrongly or improperly; misuse: abuse alcohol; abuse a privilege.
2. To hurt or injure by maltreatment; ill-use.
However, if by “aggressive” you mean “abusive”, then yes. …..I don’t think the car should be expected to tolerate that sort of driving.

The biggest issue here, of abuse, really concerns the clutch problems, even in the higher performing STI. Evidence shows that when a proper clutch is installed, that can hold up to the cars power and performance capability, there isn't a clutch problem. Case in point, they need to install a better clutch that works more in line with the cars intended performance. I’m a little confused on this point… The stock clutches hold just fine. Personally, I’ve burned mine on several occasions (by accident) and it’s still working fine after 53k miles of spirited driving. I’ve been on these forums for a while (as have you) and never heard of a widespread problem with the stock clutch (exception would be the ’02 shudder issue which was addressed). In fact, there are many examples of members running higher than stock power using the OEM clutch.

You say driven "properly". For the most part, I agree with you that there are proper ways to drive a sports car and there are proper ways to drive a non sports car. I would expect a WRX or STI or Legacy GT to a different level of "proper" as compared to a standard Impreza, or Legacy sedan, or Chevy Malibu. The level of "proper" for an STI should be beyond what is proper for a Camry, Accord, or Altima. …again, I don’t think it’s rocket science. A good driver should be able to tell the limitations of the vehicle he is driving and whether his techniques are potentially harmful. However, if someone told me they considered ham-fisted shifts to be “proper technique” (even for an STi), I wouldn’t expect components to last long in either case. ….nor would I expect SOA to fix something they broke under those circumstances.

I agree that those who mod extensively and put a hole in their pistons and then expect Subaru to fix it, are being VERY unrealistic an unfair. I've had that position for a long time. However, let's not simply assume that all problems on cars are caused by abuse or improper driving. That assumption is the problem I was addressing. There is too much of that. I totally agree. I never assume this. However, I ask that you look at these “warranty denial” threads in a more objective light. You are assuming that many people are having legitimate claims denied. …..I don’t completely disagree, but I also know that we are not always getting the entire story when we read through these “denied” threads.

There doesn't appear to be a good measure of what "proper" is.
Does a 3000rpm drop clutch standing start mean the car is abused?
What if it's launched at 6000rpm? Should the driver only take turns at the posted speed limit? What if the driver takes the corners doing 30mph over every time, thus putting great stress on the suspension and driveline? Although I agree the subject could be argued to a point, I think there is more a lack of common sense than good measure by some.

That's the problem. The variable is the service writer and the technician who feel the need to find a way out of warranty. It isn't fair to blame the customer because a customer before him came in with a similar problem and told the service writer how hard he drives his car. I simply stay away from dealers like that. In a free market, that's how we exact change, by not giving our money to companies we feel don't deserve it. I agree. Assumptions should not be made. Also, (as I said before) I would take my case to SOA if I felt I was being bullied by Service. I simply won’t buy a car unless I know I have a dealership near me that provides good service. ….it’s part of my criteria when I go shopping for one.

shoWRoX

02-03-2006, 10:47 AM

We're in a "fine" argument point.
I think we are nitpicking the issue.
Certainly we have a difference of opinion and experince/s with how dealers treat problems.

I currently drive a BMW, and I drive it quite hard at times. This thing holds up quite well, and there aren't many complaints concerning owners/drivers getting flack from BMW dealers regarding these issues. Don't think BMW's aren't without fault however. The 3 series has a lot of little things that really bug the 3 series owners. However, these are more things like switches, trim, etc... The one mechanical issue that creeps up a lot are the control arm bushings. Pre '03's seem to have that occur at a higher failure rate. I haven't heard of BMW dealers blaming the drivers for aggressive driving contributing to that. There have been those irresponsible guys who misshift, over rev and then blame BMW, just like people blame Suby, Mits, Honda, etc...

There are many more claims of Subaru dealers blaming drivers for problems. Where do I get that? Right on these forums.
In '03 the clutch problems came out and dealers left and right were blaming drivers.

Can I compare a high performance Subaru to a Porsche?
Are you kidding? Of course I do. There isn't anything more inherent in a Porsche that allows an aggressive driver to drive poorly as compared to a Subaru. We're talking here of the WRX and STI, not a more civil minded Impreza, or Legacy.
We're discussing "performance" cars here, not cars designed to a calmer driving style.

I'm replacing my 325i in a couple of months and I'm eyeing the STI, and LGT Spec B. Luckily, I have met a dealership and techs who are into modding their Subaru's, so that's a plus. I'm not into modding as much these days, but I do enjoy little things just to keep a wrench on the car for fun.
I just expect that if/when I have a problem, I won't encounter this type of dealer attitude. But then, I have some years on me (40) and sometimes dealers do treat different customers differently, and that's a shame.
There are plenty of responsible young drivers out there, I know, I was one of them. Aggressive, performance driving in a sport car or car designed for performance shouldn't just be a marketing "suggestion", the car should be capable of delivering.

Yes, you and I have a difference of opinion on what "aggressive" is or what "abusive" is. I get a sense that you tend to go towards abusive on a person who may redine every gear? My cars see redline very very often, it's good for a well built engine to stretch it's lungs. :)

We're more in agreement than disagreement though.
The examples you put more credence on aren't really the norm of sport drivers or aggressive drivers. Agressive and stupid are not synonomous.

BTW, I tried those threads you put up and they're gone.

T

shoWRoX

02-03-2006, 11:15 AM

(plus my 73 240Z is getting her RB25DET before anything gets done). This will be my shared duty daily driver. I am paying a lot of money for this car and the warranty is fairly important.
Plus, what Rexygirl said made a lot of sense.

'73? Sweeeet.
When I was a young lad and was ready to buy my first "new" car, my dad took me to a buddy of his car lot, and there was beautiful light metallic blue 1975 280Z, it had the fuel injected engine with a 5 spd., black interior beautiful car. I think I was 17 at the time, and I really didn't know what a great car and great offer I had. I remember my dads friend offered it to me for about $2000 or $2500. But, instead I ended up getting a 1978 Chevy Monza (this was in 1981-82). I wanted a V8 and that small Monza was a special coupe that had a sport suspension and a 305 V8, whereas Monza's mainly came with 4 cyl. engines.
For the time when most cars were rather slow with low HP, that thing would move.

I wish I would have got the Z instead. You live, you learn, you make mistakes again.
:)

Also, great call on the STI! They too are sweet.

T

Kean

02-03-2006, 11:54 AM

We're in a "fine" argument point. I think we are nitpicking the issue. Certainly we have a difference of opinion and experince/s with how dealers treat problems. yeah….. we’re getting into subjective/relative territory here and could argue for days with no productive outcome. I have been on the receiving end of bad service and know that there are crappy dealers out there (for any make). Just a couple points on some of your responses…

1) Some of the same people that are complaining that their warranty claims are being denied have either lied or left out relevant information that would justify the reason why the dealer might have made their decision. ….that is my point. We may never know all of the facts.
2) I’m still confused about the apparent wide-spread problem regarding the clutch (especially on the ‘03’s). …..I haven’t seen any mass complaining. Although I have seen plenty of posts regarding the issue with the ’02 clutch shudder.
3) Porshe vs. Subaru (WRX/STi): You are comparing a 23k – 30k car that is based on a econo-box sedan/wagon to a purpose-built, refined, expensive sports car.
4) Redlining every gear is not abusive to me. ….I do it all of the time (I’ve even hit the limiter in first on more than one occasion). However, ham-fisted shifts while drag racing a friend is in my book. ….these cars do not respond well to rushed shifts and you can feel that. ….although that is not to say that these cars are still not quick when driven properly.

I agree that we are seeing things pretty much on the same level. The only difference I might truly argue is the credibility of some of the complaints you might see in these forums. I’m not sure why those links are not working for you (I just tried them). Anyhow, here are just a couple of situations I could find during a quick search I did. …..these are examples of deceitful post I mentioned earlier:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9668747&highlight=tranny#post9668747
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7193067&highlight=tranny#post7193067
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6932390&highlight=tranny#post6932390
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6913723&highlight=tranny#post6913723
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6879954&highlight=tranny#post6879954
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6768222&highlight=tranny#post6768222
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6544238&highlight=tranny#post6544238
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5812622&highlight=tranny#post5812622
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5692568&highlight=tranny#post5692568
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5381420&highlight=tranny#post5381420

shoWRoX

02-03-2006, 12:48 PM

yeah….. we’re getting into subjective/relative territory here and could argue for days with no productive outcome. I have been on the receiving end of bad service and know that there are crappy dealers out there (for any make). Just a couple points on some of your responses…

1) Some of the same people that are complaining that their warranty claims are being denied have either lied or left out relevant information that would justify the reason why the dealer might have made their decision. ….that is my point. We may never know all of the facts.
2) I’m still confused about the apparent wide-spread problem regarding the clutch (especially on the ‘03’s). …..I haven’t seen any mass complaining. Although I have seen plenty of posts regarding the issue with the ’02 clutch shudder.
3) Porshe vs. Subaru (WRX/STi): You are comparing a 23k – 30k car that is based on a econo-box sedan/wagon to a purpose-built, refined, expensive sports car.
4) Redlining every gear is not abusive to me. ….I do it all of the time (I’ve even hit the limiter in first on more than one occasion). However, ham-fisted shifts while drag racing a friend is in my book. ….these cars do not respond well to rushed shifts and you can feel that. ….although that is not to say that these cars are still not quick when driven properly.

I agree that we are seeing things pretty much on the same level. The only difference I might truly argue is the credibility of some of the complaints you might see in these forums. I’m not sure why those links are not working for you (I just tried them). Anyhow, here are just a couple of situations I could find during a quick search I did. …..these are examples of deceitful post I mentioned earlier:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9668747&highlight=tranny#post9668747
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7193067&highlight=tranny#post7193067
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6932390&highlight=tranny#post6932390
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6913723&highlight=tranny#post6913723
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6879954&highlight=tranny#post6879954
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6768222&highlight=tranny#post6768222
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6544238&highlight=tranny#post6544238
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5812622&highlight=tranny#post5812622
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5692568&highlight=tranny#post5692568
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5381420&highlight=tranny#post5381420

Those worked. Thanks.
Even reading those thread, basically, there are tranny issues with the WRX. Way too many to just pick on the "liars" as to why it happens.
Seems the tranny is not built too strongly. Modding exploits weakness, and in the case of those trannys, there you have it.
It doesn't discount that a weak trans exists.

I'm on many forums with modders. The WRX has by far the most complained about transmission in regards to stock problems, and of course, from those who mod. There are people with superchargers in their 3 series running stock trannys, no trans issues. Bad switches, falling window trim, yes, but trannys are solid.

I don't agree in customer deception and lieing.
I also don't agree with manufacturers who won't accept that maybe they need to work on certain things. It goes both ways.
Look how long it took to get the ABS issue resolved.

BTW, I noted this comment and I had to respond:

"Your weak transmission argument is just that. Weak. See my other post about Subaru's 0-60 times vs Car and Driver. They designed it for 6 second times (in other words, without launching) and a car mag was able to do it faster. Car and Driver even said it was hard on the drivetrain. So then people like you forget to read the fine print and take something other than what the ACTUAL CAR COMPANY say as gospel, and that you can do that without breaking anything."

The C&D time of 5.4-5.7 is true. Subaru "claiming" the car is designed for 6 second times is very suspect. Why? Because, you need to look at the ads Subaru has been using for years and the acceleration time the use to advertise the WRX. They LOVE to use the C&D time, even though it was one of the fastest, if not the fastest, times every produced in a stock WRX.
There is simply NO WAY to deny that Subaru doesn't use advetising and marketing to imply a certain "performance capability" for their cars.
All manufacturers do it.

"However, ham-fisted shifts while drag racing a friend is in my book. ….these cars do not respond well to rushed shifts and you can feel that. ….although that is not to say that these cars are still not quick when driven properly."

See, defining "ham-fisted" drags us down the slippery slope.
Just because you think you can drive doesn't mean the guy with a trans problem can't. I know this first hand. I had a 1990 Mits Eclipse turbo.
Those cars had lots of synchro problems, regardless of how good the driver was. Weak parts is weak parts, and a more agressive, higher performace driving style will exploit the weakness.

You choose to believe the problems exist mainly due to driver abuse.
I choose to believe that problems happen and weak parts are manufactured, and aggressive/sport driving will exploit that weakness.
We do agree, that if the driver/owners creates the problem he/she should pay for it. We just don't agree on how the assessment of blame is made.

T

CALISTIYLIN

02-03-2006, 01:07 PM

I got my wipers replaced for free yesterday. Woot for Subaru!

Kean

02-03-2006, 01:33 PM

Those worked. Thanks.
Even reading those thread, basically, there are tranny issues with the WRX. Way too many to just pick on the "liars" as to why it happens.
Seems the tranny is not built too strongly. Modding exploits weakness, and in the case of those trannys, there you have it.
It doesn't discount that a weak trans exists. …an those weaknesses should be covered by SOA because they couldn’t hold up to the modifications and or abuse?

I'm on many forums with modders. The WRX has by far the most complained about transmission in regards to stock problems, and of course, from those who mod. There are people with superchargers in their 3 series running stock trannys, no trans issues. Bad switches, falling window trim, yes, but trannys are solid. ….there are also many examples here of modders running high HP with stock transmissions. I’m not debating the fact that there may be more forgiving transmissions out there.

I don't agree in customer deception and lieing.
I also don't agree with manufacturers who won't accept that maybe they need to work on certain things. It goes both ways.
Look how long it took to get the ABS issue resolved. ...hmmmm. The response from SOA on the ABS issue can be argued. In the end, they offered us a replacement ECU to remedy the way the ABS responds (for those who want the change). It’s all relative I guess….. There are some pretty bad moves other manufacturers have made in the past that pale in comparison. Personally, I’ve had first-hand experience with a ’93 Chevy Silverado.

BTW, I noted this comment and I had to respond:

"Your weak transmission argument is just that. Weak. See my other post about Subaru's 0-60 times vs Car and Driver. They designed it for 6 second times (in other words, without launching) and a car mag was able to do it faster. Car and Driver even said it was hard on the drivetrain. So then people like you forget to read the fine print and take something other than what the ACTUAL CAR COMPANY say as gospel, and that you can do that without breaking anything."

The C&D time of 5.4-5.7 is true. Subaru "claiming" the car is designed for 6 second times is very suspect. Why? Because, you need to look at the ads Subaru has been using for years and the acceleration time the use to advertise the WRX. They LOVE to use the C&D time, even though it was one of the fastest, if not the fastest, times every produced in a stock WRX.
There is simply NO WAY to deny that Subaru doesn't use advetising and marketing to imply a certain "performance capability" for their cars.
All manufacturers do it. ….yeah, that quote was made by another member and I don’t particularly agree with it. However, the “marketing” argument is kina weak in my opinion. I really can’t believe people are naïve enough to think they can treat their cars the way they may see them in displayed in commercials, magazines, TV shows, etc. and expect the car will last. I think this is the same for a lot of products sold (not just cars).

"However, ham-fisted shifts while drag racing a friend is in my book. ….these cars do not respond well to rushed shifts and you can feel that. ….although that is not to say that these cars are still not quick when driven properly."

See, defining "ham-fisted" drags us down the slippery slope.
Just because you think you can drive doesn't mean the guy with a trans problem can't. I know this first hand. I had a 1990 Mits Eclipse turbo.
Those cars had lots of synchro problems, regardless of how good the driver was. Weak parts is weak parts, and a more agressive, higher performace driving style will exploit the weakness.

You choose to believe the problems exist mainly due to driver abuse.
I choose to believe that problems happen and weak parts are manufactured, and aggressive/sport driving will exploit that weakness.
We do agree, that if the driver/owners creates the problem he/she should pay for it. We just don't agree on how the assessment of blame is made.

T ….and this is what is boils down to…. I never said these problems exists mainly due to driver abuse. I’m simply suggesting that (when looking at all of these posts) we should view them objectively. Also, realize what you read in these forums reflects just a small percentage of all Subaru owners. ….and of that sample, we are not always getting the whole story. We are assuming then that the majority of these stories are truly legitimate. Also, we have no idea how many claims are covered under warranty vs. the number that are denied.

I’m not suggesting that the 5MT (for example) is not without it’s faults or quirks. In fact, I do agree it could have been built better. ….but for the 23k (out the door) I paid for my ’03, it was a lot of bang for the buck in an overall satisfactory package.