I am currently running a ECUTek reflash on a 2005 WRX with a 2.5l shortblock swap. As with any major modification, in my case a TurboXS FMIC and a Perrin CAI, I need either a tune or a reflash to match the mods. However, due to a somewhat lethargic tuning company in my area, I have not been able to get a tune let alone a reflash. It has reached the point that I am considering other options to get the ECU reflashed.

So, from here is there really any way I can call an ECUTek authorized tuning shop and buy a reflash from them to get me by until the local tuner can actually tune the car? Or am I hopelessly stuck with the initial company that reflashed my ECU?

I ddid a search and was unable to really nail down what I was looking for, so forgive if this has been covered.

Once the ecu is licensed you can get it tuned at any place. The only issue is that unless the new tuner can get the map from the old tuner he will have to start from scratch. I imagine most tuners would want to start from scratch anyways.

i dont know many companies that do custom mail-order tunes. Im sure its possible, but i dont know how much it will really help, if at all, since its not tuned specifically to your car. If you can find another place to do a dyno/road tune, go with that. You might have to get together a tuning day/weekend and get someone to fly to your area and bang out a few cars to cover the costs of flying them out. thats what i had to do since there is a very big lack of ecutek tuners in central FL. check your regional forums for stuff like that.

The only issue is that unless the new tuner can get the map from the old tuner he will have to start from scratch.

So you're saying that EcuTek's software can't read the current ECU flash and load it up in the editing interface... how lame.

Duh! This is how EcuTeK "prevents" stealing.

So you're saying that EcuTek's software can't read the current ECU flash and load it up in the editing interface... how lame.

Its not a flaw... its intentional.

']Duh! This is how EcuTeK "prevents" stealing.

What's to steal? Another tuner's tuning ability? The new tuner has already paid their license fees for the EcuTek tuning software.... so there's nothing to steal. Anyway, that's pretty lame... forcing all tuners to start from scratch on a retune for a car. No wonder there's so many quirks with some tune from certain tuners... they have no guideline to work off of except their own (sometimes flawed) tuning principals.

What's to steal? Another tuner's tuning ability?

basically

RalliSpec did the initial tune on my uber hybrid.. it took them many many hours to get it tuned well enough for motor break in. Then I took the car to Xotic Motorsports.. and Andy had to start from scratch - which meant it took him hours and hours to get my '04 tuned properly. Both shops had to bother the guys at EcuTek 'cause my ECU was being stupid.

The ability to not access the current map loaded into the ECU is a pain in the ass and stupid. The only person getting screwed is the car owner - not the tuner - since it'll take even longer to tune an already tuned car.

What's to steal? Another tuner's tuning ability? The new tuner has already paid their license fees for the EcuTek tuning software.... so there's nothing to steal. Anyway, that's pretty lame... forcing all tuners to start from scratch on a retune for a car. No wonder there's so many quirks with some tune from certain tuners... they have no guideline to work off of except their own (sometimes flawed) tuning principals.

This is how you can tell who actually knows how to tune versus the millions of people that say they know how to tune. If everyone knew how to tune then they would be doing it themselves and we would see 10 second 1/4 miles all day long.

The only flaw in the system is the end user actually thinks they know how to tune.

This is how you can tell who actually knows how to tune versus the millions of people that say they know how to tune. If everyone knew how to tune then they would be doing it themselves and we would see 10 second 1/4 miles all day long.

The only flaw in the system is the end user actually thinks they know how to tune.


and that the consumer has to pay $360 everytime they need a tune from someone else. If you have to start from scratch then your wasting about 2 hours of tuning which is expensive if you do it alot. Only way to avoid it is to go to the same place everytime, and thats not always possible.

EcuTek is the only company that does this.. I'll say it again, the only person getting screwed is the car owner - not the tuner - I own the tune! I paid for the tune and I can't access it?!? Give me a break. Tunes are NOT proprietary - they belong to the owner of the car.

You might want to check out the new dyno in Portland

EcuTek is the only company that does this.. I'll say it again, the only person getting screwed is the car owner - not the tuner - I own the tune! I paid for the tune and I can't access it?!? Give me a break. Tunes are NOT proprietary - they belong to the owner of the car.

I think ProTuner acts the same way- one ProTuner cannot open another ProTuner's maps. I could be wrong though. I understand why this is- one must protect their IP if they want to be able to continue making money from it.

I guess it's like buying software for a computer- you buy the ability to use the compiled software. You don't get the ability to get the source code and necessarily customize the software to your liking. It's the same thing with the tune- you get to use the tune on your car, but you don't necessarily have access to it.

It's the model the business has taken.

Mike

decent analogy, but when you pay hundreds of dollars for adobe or microsoft, you get free updates, no such luck with ecutek.

i understand it in a tuners standpoint, but one would think ecutek would be more interested in the consumer.

..you get to use the tune on your car, but you don't necessarily have access to it.

But ANYONE can view your timing, A/F, and boost.. and that's the tune. The tune can be duplicated but it takes time - which is what happens to you and I when we want our maps adjusted. If PDX, GodSpeed, or any of the other EcuTek masters roll into my area for a dyno day I'd like to have them fiddle with my map, but they can't. Here's the best part - my original map came from Godspeed via Ben at EcuTek when RalliSpec had issues scaling the modded injectors to the big MAF - yet Godspeed would still have to start from scratch instead of accessing HIS tune that was modified by RalliSpec.

how was Rallispec able to modify Godspeeds tune?

Dave at RalliSpec was having problems with my particular ECU ('04 WRX) along with it's hybrid attributes. The CL/OL delay, big MAF, and modded stock injectors threw him for a loop. RalliSpec contacted Ben and told him the issue - Ben emailed RalliSpec a map they have on hand as a starting point for cars with the Perrin Big MAF and modded injectors. Of course it took additional tuning - but it worked as a "shelf map".

After the motor was broken in, I took the car to Xotic Motorsports not knowing a different tuner couldn't access the current map. Andy ran into similar issues - I left the car with him for a week and rented a car since I was almost 200 miles from his shop (he's the closest EcuTek tuner to me with a dyno). The dyno plot (wastegate pressure) that RalliSpec did looked IDENTICAL to Andy's.. of course it took him several hours to get there on his own.

But ANYONE can view your timing, A/F, and boost.. and that's the tune. The tune can be duplicated but it takes time - which is what happens to you and I when we want our maps adjusted. If PDX, GodSpeed, or any of the other EcuTek masters roll into my area for a dyno day I'd like to have them fiddle with my map, but they can't. Here's the best part - my original map came from Godspeed via Ben at EcuTek when RalliSpec had issues scaling the modded injectors to the big MAF - yet Godspeed would still have to start from scratch instead of accessing HIS tune that was modified by RalliSpec.

Well if you wanted to duplicate the whole tune, not just WOT values for AFRs, timing, and boost, I think it would take a considerable amount of logging. It could be done, but I think it would take a little more time than most people expect. I actually wrote a program that would takes sets of logs and try to reconstruct maps from them- it's not as easy as you would think since different throttle tranisitions can affect different combinations of load/rpm, so it's not something that can be done automatically.

I'm not sure how I feel about different people not being able to modify one anothers' maps- on one hand, you are paying for a service and if you don't allow for some form of protection of IP, then different tuners really can't differentiate themselves. On the other hand, like you said, you are paying for the tune, so why can't you have access to it.

It does suck that you had to pay to have the car retuned multiple times, though.


Mike

This is how you can tell who actually knows how to tune versus the millions of people that say they know how to tune. If everyone knew how to tune then they would be doing it themselves and we would see 10 second 1/4 miles all day long.

The only flaw in the system is the end user actually thinks they know how to tune.
:lol: lol, because only i-speed knows how to tune cars. :lol: :rolleyes:

I know a number of tuners now that are moving towards the OpenECU tools because of this issue. When someone brings in a car tuned somewhere else to be fixed / upgraded, they can see exactly how the car is tuned currently, and make changes from there with out wasting their time / customer's money.

Colby

I know a number of tuners now that are moving towards the OpenECU tools because of this issue. When someone brings in a car tuned somewhere else to be fixed / upgraded, they can see exactly how the car is tuned currently, and make changes from there with out wastint their time / customer's money.

Colby

Makes perfect sense to me! OpenSource, just like most of Linux. I've nothing against protecting intellectual property, but I certainly question the validity that suggests it rightfully belongs to the tuner.....

Jeff

I know a number of tuners now that are moving towards the OpenECU tools because of this issue. When someone brings in a car tuned somewhere else to be fixed / upgraded, they can see exactly how the car is tuned currently, and make changes from there with out wasting their time / customer's money.

Colby

Who says that current map in the car is even any good? The reason the customer came to another tuner in the first place was because there was a problem with the tune. So wouldn't that suggest there is a problem with the map?

A good professional tuner will more than likely have a better map to start with instead of the one in the ECU. So to start with a poor map and fix everything in it would actually take longer and cost the customer more money.

But someone that doesn't really know what there doing will have access to a base map to start with to make tuning faster for them. Sounds good to me...

A good professional tuner will more than likely have a better map to start with instead of the one in the ECU. So to start with a poor map and fix everything in it would actually take longer and cost the customer more money..

That's not correct. There are several different ECU's for each model year of the WRX (regarding EcuTek reflashing). Maps are not inter-flashable between ECU's - but many tuners will have "base" maps if they've tuned enough cars with those set-ups and ECU's. i.e., the tuner as tuned so many 02-03 WRX's with Pinks, vf34, TMIC, TBE, etc.. that the tuner with have a map he could use to begin with. But he WON'T have a map for an '03 with a 2.5liter, big MAF, FMIC, gt35, and Denso 740cc injectors, and meth injection. Now he has to start from scratch. These setups are becoming more and more popular - but not popular enough to start a collection of "base" maps - there are simply too many options for our cars now.

not to mention that you dont always go to a new tuner because the previous was bad. you could have updated your car and needed a new tune and seeing no one in your area you have to either go to them or bring them to you and its not always possible to get the same tuner. if i needed a retune and couldnt fly the original tuner in, id have to get a dyno day going most likely, or hop in on one and theres a possibility it wont be the same tuner.

Makes perfect sense to me! OpenSource, just like most of Linux. I've nothing against protecting intellectual property, but I certainly question the validity that suggests it rightfully belongs to the tuner.....

Jeff


This is not an unusual circumstance with any profession. What you are paying for from the tuner is the "service" to tune the car. The actual end result is an instrument of service and rightfully should be owned by the tuner. The same holds for architect's and engineers. When they are hired you do not own the plans, they do. What you get is the service for your project.

The same holds for architect's and engineers. When they are hired you do not own the plans, they do. What you get is the service for your project.

Huh? When you hire a contractor and he draws blueprints for the work he'll be performing, those plans are yours. Of course you have to pay for them, but how else is the homeowner supposed to go to the town to get permits? If this were true, NO ONE would have access to blueprints of ANYTHING.

When you get your American V8 dyno tuned, the tuner doesn't wash the color off of the timing advance springs, file down the timing mark on your balancer, or sand the numbers off the jets in your carb and keep the accelerater pump size a secret in order to protect his "tune".

Damn.. it's not like there are tuners on every corner - if stealing tunes was an issue, than we would've heard the drama on NASIOC a long time ago when the UTEC and Link were popular.

Huh? When you hire a contractor and he draws blueprints for the work he'll be performing, those plans are yours. Of course you have to pay for them, but how else is the homeowner supposed to go to the town to get permits? If this were true, NO ONE would have access to blueprints of ANYTHING.

When you get your American V8 dyno tuned, the tuner doesn't wash the color off of the timing advance springs, file down the timing mark on your balancer, or sand the numbers off the jets in your carb and keep the accelerater pump size a secret in order to protect his "tune".

Damn.. it's not like there are tuners on every corner - if stealing tunes was an issue, than we would've heard the drama on NASIOC a long time ago when the UTEC and Link were popular.

You are not the only one to be incorrect on the concept of building plans. Most people think they are paying for plans when in fact they are paying for the service only. The contractor or architect owns the intelectual property and the plans. In the contract you are allowed to use the plans to obtain the permits for your project only. Obvioulsy the purpose is to allow for a finished project. If the laws weren't in place there would be no protection to re-use the plans on multiple sites. This is the law in all states. Again, what you are paying for is the service. Plans as well as tunes are instruments of service. When I prepare plans, I will provide as many copies as the owner's request, but I will not allow them to take those plans and build another home on another site without my permission / compensation. The potential liability it opens up for me is too high. That is why the copyright laws are in place. Obviously the tuners liability is not open ended as their signatures are not on the re-flash. However, I believe the same rights should be in place. It's not to say the tuner shouldn't provide the original owner access to the tuning information, it should just be limited only to the original car that was tuned just as architectural plans are limited for a specific site.

Yeh but when you want to add on to your house, you dont knock it down and start all over. you allowed to take the plans to make the best possible addition to where you think it needs to be done. The same should be allowed for the tune. A different tuner isnt taking the tune and just renaming it as his own, hes modifying it to his talent and skills.

its like plagarism, you can paraphrase someone, just as long as it isnt verbatim of your source. the same goes for the tune, as long as hes changing it in his way, the other tuners map is just a base, a thought to which the second tuner expands.

Yeh but when you want to add on to your house, you dont knock it down and start all over. you allowed to take the plans to make the best possible addition to where you think it needs to be done. The same should be allowed for the tune. A different tuner isnt taking the tune and just renaming it as his own, hes modifying it to his talent and skills.

its like plagarism, you can paraphrase someone, just as long as it isnt verbatim of your source. the same goes for the tune, as long as hes changing it in his way, the other tuners map is just a base, a thought to which the second tuner expands.

Absolutely. Because here you are working on the same project and just like I would do for a client a tuner should do for their client even if the client hires someone else for the addition or the retune. The point is that it is limited to a specific project. The tuner's face a more difficult task in not knowing where it goes. For me the plans are easy as they are drawn for a specific site. Still, someone can reprint them without my stamp and take them to another site; and unless I find out they would be free and clear. I have seen this done to a contractor friend of mine. Fortunately for him his former client wasn't very bright about it and re-buillt the home on a lot adjacent to my friend's home. Needless to say, it went to court and my friend was awarded almost $40,000 for compensation of the plan re-use.

I was wrong about blueprints.

There is no copyright, intellectual or otherwise, on tunes.

The EcuTek tunes are locked because that's the way EcuTek wants to do it. Tuners complain about it, too. This isn't a thread about laymen stealing tunes and tuners hating on us, it's about EcuTek not allowing anyone other than the original tuner to access the tune.

we know that, were just trying to figure out the reason for it. and if the reason is for what weve been explaining, its stupid.

I was wrong about blueprints.

There is no copyright, intellectual or otherwise, on tunes.

The EcuTek tunes are locked because that's the way EcuTek wants to do it. Tuners complain about it, too. This isn't a thread about laymen stealing tunes and tuners hating on us, it's about EcuTek not allowing anyone other than the original tuner to access the tune.

That is definately a mistake by ECUtek. The tuner should be able to decide this and should willingly allow another tuner to access the original tune for a specific tune. I do not agree that another tuner should benefit from the other tuners work and then go on to use that information on multiple other cars. I think we are all talking about the same thing here in that it sucks you can't take your car to a different tuner to modify an existing tune. That would certainly in some cases help identify the issue of original tune.

Ok.. this is all very interesting and I agree. However what about the position that EcuTek takes as it relates to recruiting tuners. If a tuner accepts the EcuTek business model and purchases a site license he would in fact be, to some degree, guarenteed a certain return customer base because customers would have to continue to return to them for tuning services. So from EcuTek's point of view it seems to me that there more interested in the tuner relationship than with the client. It would seem that it's up to the tuner to maintain the relationship with the client which is true.

Unfortunetly if EcuTek doesn't stay ahead of the game and follow the industry EM market they could be.. and to some degree already are, loosing business footing.


-K

Ok.. this is all very interesting and I agree. However what about the position that EcuTek takes as it relates to recruiting tuners. If a tuner accepts the EcuTek business model and purchases a site license he would in fact be, to some degree, guarenteed a certain return customer base because customers would have to continue to return to them for tuning services. So from EcuTek's point of view it seems to me that there more interested in the tuner relationship than with the client. It would seem that it's up to the tuner to maintain the relationship with the client which is true.

thats the problem. Ecutek cares more about the tuner then the clients. Ecutek should care about the clients, and the tuner should be the ones responsible for getting their clients to return, the clients shouldnt be forced to return to the same tuner every time.

This is how I understand this. The ROM file is the final product before it goes in to the memory of the ECU. It can be saved on a PC just like any other file.

You make a mod, the tuner tweaks the rom file to match the mod. Then reflashes the ECU again. Do a few pulls to check the result, tweak again if needed. Done.

If my understanding is correct, One might be wise to request a copy of the file in case the tuner dies, moves, or you move.
I don't have mine. I asked for it. I needed a tune and the original tuner was much further away than my new local tuner. I say we all start demanding these files as part of the package.

I don't have mine. I asked for it.

so you tried to get it and your tuner wouldnt give it to you? Thats not really an ecutek deal though, that would just be whether or not the tuner would want to give it to you. I guess those could be to the same degree as the housing plans like expressed above. The architect owns the design, but the consumer paid them to use it. That doesnt mean we can go around selling a house with the same exact floorplan and calling it our own, or give it to another architect to copy. So the ROM file would be the same as that. The tuner created it, and the consumer (us) payed for that ROM file to be flashed (built) into the ECU, but we dont actually pay for the ROM file. Maybe that could be come an additional cost.

so you tried to get it and your tuner wouldnt give it to you? Thats not really an ecutek deal though, that would just be whether or not the tuner would want to give it to you. I guess those could be to the same degree as the housing plans like expressed above. The architect owns the design, but the consumer paid them to use it. That doesnt mean we can go around selling a house with the same exact floorplan and calling it our own, or give it to another architect to copy. So the ROM file would be the same as that. The tuner created it, and the consumer (us) payed for that ROM file to be flashed (built) into the ECU, but we dont actually pay for the ROM file. Maybe that could be come an additional cost.

I asked for it, but the tuner did not say no. He just has not said Yes. He wanted me to send him my ECU and let him make the change. I dont have a spare ECU so I asked again by email and got no response. I like my tuner. I am trying to be a good client and I may be passing thru his area again soon so I have not pushed the issue. The local tuner who is competent but has a little less experience said it is not big deal to do a pull or two, get a base, and work form there but I have not done that either cause the problem is just a slight overboost CEL chance in cold weather due to change in the mid pipe section (test pipe). I have a code reader. If it happens, its only when I floor it in 5th from a rel. low speed, I just reset the ECU. Eventually I want it fixed. Just trying to be cheap as usual.

I still say we bargain for the file in the initial tune and all subseqeunt tunes. If we all did it, soon it would be standard practice to provide the file on a CD if requested. They might all say no, but it might be worth a shot. Maybe some tuner will read this and come beat me up for suggesting it. :rolleyes:

I am currently running a ECUTek reflash on a 2005 WRX with a 2.5l shortblock swap. As with any major modification, in my case a TurboXS FMIC and a Perrin CAI, I need either a tune or a reflash to match the mods. However, due to a somewhat lethargic tuning company in my area, I have not been able to get a tune let alone a reflash. It has reached the point that I am considering other options to get the ECU reflashed.

So, from here is there really any way I can call an ECUTek authorized tuning shop and buy a reflash from them to get me by until the local tuner can actually tune the car? Or am I hopelessly stuck with the initial company that reflashed my ECU?

I ddid a search and was unable to really nail down what I was looking for, so forgive if this has been covered.


Call up DynoComp in Scottsdale, AZ, let me get their # from my celly..

480-596-0500.

They can reflash your ECU, but Im not quite sure how it works, like if you send it to them or what. But they do send out maps to people in other states. They do a great job, too. Check out their site I think its

[ww.dynocomp.co

I cant post urls yet, so just do the site with normal tags, with dynocomp in the middle. See what they offer.

this is a pretty good example on why it takes 7658 people to change a lightbulb in the forum.

Anyway, to answer the question posted, yes, you can take your reflashed ecutek ecu to another tuner to get a retune. I did it before with my old WRX and it worked out well. I would also recommend DynoComp in AZ as well if you are local...they are awesome!

this is a pretty good example on why it takes 7658 people to change a lightbulb in the forum.

we answered the question about 40 posts ago, we moved on to a new topic.

right. the question was answered and a discussion ensued about the fact that the new tuner you take it to has to start all over or with his base map instead of being able to Load your present map and go from there.

This is a big problem, as in my case, the mail order tuning company has lost its tuner and it's ECUtek tuning abilities... forcing me to spend lots of $$$ to retune from scratch, even though I just need a small adjustment...

This is a big problem, as in my case, the mail order tuning company has lost its tuner and it's ECUtek tuning abilities... forcing me to spend lots of $$$ to retune from scratch, even though I just need a small adjustment...

I will bargain for my Rom file the next time I contract a tuner. It will be in the negotiated price for the adjustment and associated dyno time. To me it would make sense for Ecutek to instruct the tuner to offer the file AND require a surcharge for loading another tuner's Rom file. That would benefit the customer and still offer protection for the tuner. With that senario, going to another tuner would be discouraged but still practical for the customer.

It appears two things are going on here when it comes to getting ECU reflashes (via EcuTEK software):
1) The initial fee to access the ECU with an EcuTEK license. Once this is paid by the customer - that license doesn't have to be paid again. This fee basically is the fee that the vendor/tuner has tp pay back to Ecutek plus some profit
2) The fee to do the actual tuning by the tuner

It seems that (1) allows the ECU to be accessed by the EcuTEK software - that does NOT have to be paid again - is this correct? It stays with the ECU - correct?

Therefore, the licensing fee is only paid once and the car owner basically has to pay the retuning fees as needed with mods by any tuner. But that fee becomes slightly steeper if another tuner has to start from scratch - but the licensning fee doesn't have to be paid again.

I hope I'm correct.

1) The initial fee to access the ECU with an EcuTEK license. Once this is paid by the customer - that license doesn't have to be paid again. This fee basically is the fee that the vendor/tuner has tp pay back to Ecutek plus some profit
2) The fee to do the actual tuning by the tuner

It seems that (1) allows the ECU to be accessed by the EcuTEK software - that does NOT have to be paid again - is this correct? It stays with the ECU - correct?

Therefore, the licensing fee is only paid once and the car owner basically has to pay the retuning fees as needed with mods by any tuner. But that fee becomes slightly steeper if another tuner has to start from scratch - but the licensning fee doesn't have to be paid again.

I hope I'm correct.

You are correct. The licensing fee is like buying the UTEC or Hydra - you buy it, install it, and it's yours.

You're also correct about the second statement. The tuning MAY cost you more if your new tuner has to spend additional time tuning your setup if it's truly unique. It might take your new tuner three hours to tune for a different intercooler where as it would only take one hour for your original tuner since he doesn't have to start from scratch.