I was perusing random forums the other day and found this. I figure for someone with more time and blocks then they know what to do with, this might be an interesting thing to try...

http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1444721


At first it had me :eek:'ing, then I was :huh:'ing, now I'm thinking it might actually be interesting to try.

End-result:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v691/maddog2020/000_0694.jpg

interesting, however I wouldnt do that on any car besides a dedicated drag car. Since I have no idea of the thermal properties of that material or how it will hold up in the long run.

Def is a cheap solution though.

Ben

Aluminum epoxy is a pretty wonderful goo. The Aluminum it leaves behind is a fairly soft variety with a pretty huge co-efficient of thermal expansion. As long as the filler isn't actually touching the head gasket it would probably hold up for a very long time. Heads don't actually need THAT much coolant flow. Running completely closed deck blocks on street cars can be done with a bit of creativity (hint, use passages in the head, but feed it from an external source).

Very cool little DIY. Thanks 8complex.

very very interestin. now which one of us is gonna do this?? go go go!!

very very interestin. now which one of us is gonna do this?? go go go!!
Looks like a good alturnitive to the drill plug method.

The person that did that write-up is actually personal friends with my brother. He recently dyno'd his car and hit near 400whp with the factory sleeves. You can see the same write-up by Hotrex on turbooptions.com in DIY Fabrication under Block Filling Hotrex Style if you are interested.

The person that did that write-up is actually personal friends with my brother. He recently dyno'd his car and hit near 400whp with the factory sleeves. You can see the same write-up by Hotrex on turbooptions.com in DIY Fabrication under Block Filling Hotrex Style if you are interested.
any updates on how its holding up?
is this his daily driver or just a 'play' car?

any updates on how its holding up?
is this his daily driver or just a 'play' car?

The car used to be his daily but now I believe its just a project car. From what I've been told its holding you with no troubles.

From what I've been told its holding you with no troubles.
oh yeah, it holds me real good, all night long. :banana:
but serriously, thats great that its not crumbeling or degrading over time.

you know I was just thinking about something like that today...
I was thinking I could just weld in some "ribbs" to strengthen it...But that looks much easier/better :)

you know I was just thinking about something like that today...
I was thinking I could just weld in some "ribbs" to strengthen it...But that looks much easier/better :)
Ive seen alot of people take a drill slightly larger than the with of the water jacket. drill a little off of the sleeve and inside block, then instert metal dowel slugs into the drilled area... they do that all around the sleeves.
this does look alot better simply because your not modifying any of the properties of the block metal, just simply adding on.

I have to replace my crankcase so I'm thinkin I might try it out... we'll see...

oh yeah, it holds me real good, all night long. :banana:
but serriously, thats great that its not crumbeling or degrading over time.

Whoops, haha! Its holding up with no troubles ;)

Whoops, haha! Its holding up with no troubles ;)
Nifty! Thanks for the update, it seems like such a simple idea, that just MIGHT work.

I guess if I ever really get into it again (AFI) and feel the need to "build" a motor, I will give it a shot. :)

Go figgure, you of all people would be looking into how to closedecking a block :lol:

There is a certian company that does this for Subaru blocks as well..


http://www.outbackmotors.com/block_pistons_rods.htm

Of course they are targeting the dung buggy market though.

Looks like they just filled it with a crapload of "liquid steel" epoxy and drilled out some tubes for coolant. :huh: Is that really durable enough to provide a substantial increase in sleeve strength?

i would be worried about the filler expanding too much and warping the cylinders as it expands, or warping the block itself. it just seems a little fishy to me, but if it works, a partial fill would be nice for some added rigidity.

~Josh~

I have noticed that on Crawford's race block order page, they offer a fully closed-deck block. Is there a suby engine that was closed deck factory (the N/A maybe) ?

Wouldn't it be simpler just to get an OEM closed deck block than to do this?

Most Honda's only came with open decks, which is why this mod got attention. Of course it also helps that a D-series block is almost free, since you can get them anywhere. :D

I have noticed that on Crawford's race block order page, they offer a fully closed-deck block. Is there a suby engine that was closed deck factory (the N/A maybe) ?


The '92 - '94 Legacy Turbo came with a 2.2L fully closed deck.

Mike~~

i would be worried about the filler expanding too much and warping the cylinders as it expands, or warping the block itself. it just seems a little fishy to me, but if it works, a partial fill would be nice for some added rigidity.
I would assume that the stuff is just strong enough to help, but not strong enough to deform anything else when it expands. More than likely it just deforms when it expands, so it doesn't cause any damage.

As to how much strength it provides... well, probably not much, but how much does it really take to keep a cylinder from flexing a whole hell of a lot? But when you get up into that area where you're flexing cylinder walls, any little bit could help.

true that. id just make sure you get enough coolant flow around the cylinder walls and you should be golden. the EJ22t from the 1990-1994 legacy turbo came fully-closed deck block, as well as some years of the EJ20G i believe.


~Josh~

I wouldn't think the filler material would conduct heat well, so it may hinder cooling more than calculated. The coolant is actually contacting the filler material more than the block and cylinder walls. Especially if it's some kind of epoxy, it will conduct heat way slower than an actual metal. What kind of material are they using anyway? I haven't heard any clear answers on that. :confused:

I wouldn't think the filler material would conduct heat well, so it may hinder cooling more than calculated. The coolant is actually contacting the filler material more than the block and cylinder walls. Especially if it's some kind of epoxy, it will conduct heat way slower than an actual metal. What kind of material are they using anyway? I haven't heard any clear answers on that. :confused:

Spec sheet: http://www.devcon.com/techinfo/108.pdf

Gives the thermal conductivity of 1.58 [(cal x cm / (sec x cm(2) x °C)] x 10(-3)

where water is 0.606 W·m-1·K-1

Lots of units to convert there, and I'm headed to bed, so I'll pass.

MSDS: http://www.devcon.com/techinfo/10710.PDF

Crystalline silica < 1%
Bisphenol A diglycidyl ether resin 20%-40%
Alkyl Glycidyl Ether 1%-10%

But that is only hazardous ingredients.

Well, only where the material was contacting the cylinder walls would it not be getting coolant flow like normal. The coolant normally flows into the heads via smaller passages anyway, so as long as you bore out where you need to get flow through the gaskets, you should be fine.

Yes, the coolant probably transfers heat slower than the material does, but what I am talking about is the fact that first the heat has to get through the material to get to the coolant. Most of the cylinder wall is surrounded by the filler material. It will take longer for the filler material to transfer the heat to the coolant, then there is less coolant flow which compounds the problem of heat transfer. It would obviously be way better for the cylinder walls to contact the coolant directly since it is the device used to carry heat to the radiator. The filler material in the cooling jackets is slowing the transfer of heat to the coolant, if it was a normal closed deck with metal instead of that filler "stuff", the heat would be quickly conducted to the coolant. I am only stating that the filler material is hindering cooling more than a lot of people may think:
-with "filler" material(if it is not pure metal) heat transfers through cylinder walls, then through filler into tiny coolant tubes
-with normal closed deck (all metal) heat transfers directly from cylinder block into coolant
Someone chime in a tell me why I'm wrong here, it seems obvious to me but maybe there's something I'm missing. :confused:

the above stated is probably somewhat true...it might actualy act like an insulator

Well, take a look at a standard "closed-deck" block and it has the same heat transfer properties as this does, minus that this material probably doesn't transfer heat too well. The coolant channels aren't filled with it, just the top 3/8" or so.

Yes, the coolant probably transfers heat slower than the material does, but what I am talking about is the fact that first the heat has to get through the material to get to the coolant. Most of the cylinder wall is surrounded by the filler material. It will take longer for the filler material to transfer the heat to the coolant, then there is less coolant flow which compounds the problem of heat transfer. It would obviously be way better for the cylinder walls to contact the coolant directly since it is the device used to carry heat to the radiator. The filler material in the cooling jackets is slowing the transfer of heat to the coolant, if it was a normal closed deck with metal instead of that filler "stuff", the heat would be quickly conducted to the coolant. I am only stating that the filler material is hindering cooling more than a lot of people may think:
-with "filler" material(if it is not pure metal) heat transfers through cylinder walls, then through filler into tiny coolant tubes
-with normal closed deck (all metal) heat transfers directly from cylinder block into coolant
Someone chime in a tell me why I'm wrong here, it seems obvious to me but maybe there's something I'm missing. :confused:

I don't think the dude who did this is too worried about any of that. Just looking for a cheap way to strengthen his engine and hope everything works out, I guess.

You're right, not a viable alternative to a oem closed deck, but a fun and creative project.

...

And a pic of the creative mind behind this :lol:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v691/maddog2020/000_0711.jpg

Has anyone tried to weld the deck closed with aluminum stock?

Has anyone tried to weld the deck closed with aluminum stock?
Was done in the past, I believe they had problems with different rate of expansion due to cast vs. stock type materials.

what about this stuff http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?storeId=10001&catalogId=10002&catalogIdentifier=&categoryId=14795&parentCategoryId=11477 anyone see or use it before?

It's more money, but no doubt stronger.
http://www.z10eng.com/sleeve/block_sleeve.htm

It's more money, but no doubt stronger.
http://www.z10eng.com/sleeve/block_sleeve.htm

more money? more like a ton more money...... if i had it i would probably do that, but since i don't i think its the moroso deck filler for me.

Eric

again...I wonder how cobb does it...

what about this stuff http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?storeId=10001&catalogId=10002&catalogIdentifier=&categoryId=14795&parentCategoryId=11477 anyone see or use it before?


Used it many, many times. It's also known as "Hard-blok".

Just not on an EJ.

I discussed the idea with Ron @ Axis and Quirt @ Crawford three years ago...they didn't have any thoughts on the idea, so I abandoned it.

It works well in Domestics :)

S.

It's more money, but no doubt stronger.
http://www.z10eng.com/sleeve/block_sleeve.htm

Yep I know of a particular company that does that to EJ motors for about half that price.

-Matt

Filling or putting a partial filler in a block to stabilize the cylinders is very old hotrodder technology. Its been done for decades, and works well provided enough coolant passage is left open.

On some all out drag racing engines they would completely fill the block, since it only needed to make a single pass before being allowed to cool. On other engines they sometimes only fill the bottom 1/3 or 1/2 of the block to stabilize the block so it does not move around so much.

On the Honda's and other open deck blocks they have been putting block girdles in the top to stabilize the cylinders for quite a long time. They can either be metal inserts that are filed to a tight fit or a metal filled epoxy. Crawford has made comments on the forums that strongly implied he has done this on some of his high hp engines for the sandrails, but no details.

It is a simple easy way to significantly strengthen the upper block. The only question is if it is necessary at your state of tune. If your blowing head gaskets or cracking cylinder walls it would be high on the list of things to do. Since most of us are not in that power range, for the average guy probably not necessary unless he is looking for that last 5 hp you would get by keeping the cylinders round at high cylinder pressures for a good ring seal, and low piston ring friction.

Larry

subscribed

well the moroso one says its good for cast iron, so i really just have to see the themal expansion rate compared to cast aluminum and if its close then i'll go for it, if not then i'll just have to find another way.

Eric

There are several compounds that various sources recommend but I have not tried any of these in aluminium engines.
Aluminum and its alloys has a typical thermal expansion of about:
13.7 to 11.7 x 10-6 in/in deg F


Loctite® Hysol® 3479 A&B - Metal Set HTA
Low shrinkage on cure (0.2%)
High temperature resistant (190°C)
Compressive strength 90 N/mm^2 (13,000 psi)

Devcon Aluminum putty F
Cured shrinkage .0008 in/in
compressive strength 8,420 psi
Thermal expansion 29 [(in/in x deg F) x 10-6]
Temp resistance (wet 120 deg F) dry 250 deg F

also of interest is:

Durabond 454B aluminum epoxy
www.cotronics.com
shrinkage 0.1%
thermal expansion 8 x 10-5 deg C
Max use temp 500 deg F

Belzona 1111 (super metal)
http://www.belzona.com/1111.aspx


Hardblok
www.hardblok.com
long history in iron blocks (1984) good reputation
manufacture claims tested and acceptable in aluminum blocks.


Larry

Uhm

Temperature resistance: Wet: 120°F, Dry: 250°F

uh-huh

Yeah the devcon is obviously not the best choice ;)

Larry

I was personally thinking of titanium paste... I know they use that stuff to fill gouges in hardened steel rollers on printing presses. Once it sets up, you can machine it like metal.

I was personally thinking of titanium paste... I know they use that stuff to fill gouges in hardened steel rollers on printing presses. Once it sets up, you can machine it like metal.

the real problem though is the thermal expansion rate, once you know that then you can see if it is good for the job or not.

Eric

I was seriously considering doing this on an 05 2.5 block I have in the shop but I forgot about the bolts that hold the block together. If you never plan on rebuilding the block you still could, but if you ever have to crack the block this would make it impossible to get to the bolts down in there. :(

I was seriously considering doing this on an 05 2.5 block I have in the shop but I forgot about the bolts that hold the block together. If you never plan on rebuilding the block you still could, but if you ever have to crack the block this would make it impossible to get to the bolts down in there. :(

well if you can machine it like metal then why wouldn't you just be able to drill out where the bolts go?

Eric

this would make it impossible to get to the bolts down in there.

Not a problem if you plan ahead! Buy some long candles (or cast some) wax rods the right diameter. (or use styrofoam rods from the hobby store).

Place the rods in the access path to the bolt holes. Pour the hard block, then when it is dry, drill out the wax/styrofoam and your good to go. You would need to be very careful to fully cover the bolt contact surface and make the access channels big enough for your socket plus a bit of clearence, or you will be doing some grinding with a long extension to open up access to the bolts.

Wax would work best, because any missed chips of wax would melt at engine operating temperature and be dissolved in the engine oil or coolant depending where they ended up.

Larry

Well I thought about using something to keep the goo out of the way of the bolts... but they would take up a major amount of space in there. I don' think the left over little bit would really be worth it.

well the moroso one says its good for cast iron, so i really just have to see the themal expansion rate compared to cast aluminum and if its close then i'll go for it, if not then i'll just have to find another way.

Eric
I would think that, like with explosives, the expanding material would seek out the path of least resistance. Since it's hollow underneath (where the salt was), I'd think that it would expand that direction.

page 18 or so, hismotor went kaput, he blames it on headgasket failure, others speculate inadiquate cooling of the upper cylinders.

just a thought

I would think that, like with explosives, the expanding material would seek out the path of least resistance. Since it's hollow underneath (where the salt was), I'd think that it would expand that direction.


OT: but...
If explosives take the path of least resistance how do they have a shattering or cutting effect? Cutting steal would be impossible. Ask a Navy Seal if it is possible to shear off a steal girder in open air... I think your thinking of electricity.

I would think that, like with explosives, the expanding material would seek out the path of least resistance. Since it's hollow underneath (where the salt was), I'd think that it would expand that direction.
Not really... think about it this way - If you put a plank of wood with a foot over the curb then roll your car on it, you'll break it off if you jump on it. If you put it between two curbs (bricks, etc) and stand on it, it'll just bend a bit and return to normal.

Besides that, most of the pressure is in the very top of the cylinder since that is where it ignites. I think the exact number is supposed to be (ideal tune) 10-15° ATDC, but don't quote me on that.

It seems to me the best way to accomplish deck closing would be to machine the parts hot. In other words, run the motor well above the maximum operating temperature then weld it in place.

Paeco offers deck closing for $650. In their literature they discuss the downsides of most spacer systems which involve hammering the spacer into place. This causes constriction of the tops of the cylinders when heated, due to prestressing of the metal. They claim that a loosly fitted, welded in place spacer works well. Of course it is necessary to then machine (mill) the top of the block smooth. Deck closing also helps to seal the head gasket. Coupled with a copper gasket this would be an awesome system.

Another option that I have considered would be to o-ring the pistons. This helps to steady the tops of the cylinders due to the connection to the head through grooves in the block and the head. Again coupled with a sturdy copper gasket (to improve gasket seal under boost) this might accomplish what we need at a lower cost, although I think the deck closing would be better and more reliable.

filling the deck of the block doesn't reduce rooling at all if you match the size and location of coolang holes to the head gasket.. the gasket is usually what limits coolant flow anyways, filling the deck with aluminum plate and drilling the propper holes out would actually increase surface area in contact with the coolant.

on a side note - if i were the one making the filler plates i would radius the edges of the holes on the inside to improve fluid flow and avoid cavitation.

on a side note - if i were the one making the filler plates i would radius the edges of the holes on the inside to improve fluid flow and avoid cavitation.

what do you mean by radius?

Eric

what do you mean by radius?

Eric

i mean rounding off the edges of the coolant flow holes to improve flow, sharp edges are bad for flow.

But more flow is not all ways a good thing. Especially when it comes to heat transfer. ;)

TMS

But more flow is not all ways a good thing. Especially when it comes to heat transfer. ;)

TMS

How can it be a bad thing. More flow = more heat removal capability

But consider where its flowing. From one hot place to another cool place it will transfer the heat. Like hot cylinders to the head? More flow is not good there. Hence why he said "more flow is not allways [sic] a good thing". He never said it was one way or the other but rather certain circumstances its good, certain its bad.

It takes time for the heat to transfer. If you move the water before it can absorb or release any heat what good is that.
Take out your thermostat that will create more flow. See what happens.

TMS

My thought on this is that some engineer sat and calculated the thermodynamics for this engine so when you put something blocking the flow of it you should make it the closest flowing to the original as possible... that is unless you like doing thermodynamics problems...i know i sure as hell don't... when i get around to closing my deck on the sti shortblock i just acquired i will be taking the head gasket and making the proper holes (probably about 1mm bigger than the ones on the headgasket) and they will be radiused. I'm sure it will work fine.

Eric

Take your thermostat out and your engine will never come up to temp. I was born and raised in the northeast and you're car won't even get hot enough to get decent heat and that is because with nothing to control flow, the difference in coolant temp across the engine is going to decrease. The time of block/coolant contact do not come into play and if I recall in the derivation of the single state heat flux equation they cancel each other out.

Q = mc(Th-Tc)

Q = heat flux across barrier in BTU/hr (block to coolant)
m = mass flow rate of coolant
c = specific heat capacity of coolant
(Th-Tc) = delta temp across block.

Say you double the mass flow rate through you block, the delta T across you block with decrease by half but your overall heat removal capabilties will double as long as you radiator can support the removal of the added energy.

So, if delta Temp is held constant as it is somewhat due to the thermostat cycling open and closed, and you double mass flow rate through the block, then you have twice the heat removal capabilities you have before.

As good and all this info is though it has nothing to do with closed deck blocks due to the fact with the closed decks and smaller coolant passages you may get higher coolant velocities through the block, if anything mass flow rate would go down due to the bigger pressure drop across the block and heat transfer would suffer.

Take your thermostat out and your engine will never come up to temp.


Was this on a subaru? I have never done it to a subaru. Only to a SB chevy and it caused the motor to overheat. I put in a restrictor that jegs sells and it was fine.

TMS

Was this on a subaru? I have never done it to a subaru. Only to a SB chevy and it caused the motor to overheat. I put in a restrictor that jegs sells and it was fine.

TMS

aluminum disapates (spelling) heat alot faster than iron.. so you have to slow the coolant flow to get the water to absorb more heat...

Not a suby, I had an POS buick ghetto sled way back in the day and the thermostat stuck shut causing the motor to overheat so I pulled it. all was good until winter time and I couldn't get the car hot enough to get anything for heat. I had to block the radiator off with cardbord to allow the coolant to warm up and then all was fine but I also had to watch temps and make sure it wasn't to blocked or I'd overheat.

aluminum disapates (spelling) heat alot faster than iron.. so you have to slow the coolant flow to get the water to absorb more heat...

I am not a mechanical engineer (I have a masters degree in environmental eng), but I have taken a lot of courses such as thermodynamics, fluid mechanics, systems analysis. What you are saying is not entirely correct, but you are right in a way.

Heat movement is driven by differences in temperature. By having your coolant cooler it will transfer more heat from the engine. Fluid velocities, turbulence, will help prevent areas of the engine from having dead areas, which can stop the transfer of heat (basically the water in that area does not move, it heats up, and heat cannot transfer to it). Having more flow would help to transfer heat better. The problem is, you also need to remove the heat, and that is where the radiator comes in. If the radiator has reached its peak efficiency for a particular flow, flowing more may not help improve its removal efficiency. That is where your analysis is correct. Going to an aftermarket radiator that is more efficient would remove more heat as well, and could change this, so its a lot of things.

That said, it might not be a good idea to increase water flow too much in local areas by smoothing, if at all, unless you do a flow analysis on all the pathways of the engine. If you made other pathways smoother, other paths may be starved for water. Like electricity, water takes the path of least resistance. Generally I would keep the pathways as stock as possible, unless you want to experiment like drag teams do, taking out their motors and looking for heat wear in particular spots, then making small compensating adjustments. Also, there are a lot of other factors regarding the design of the engine that might be adversly affected by flowing more water. Like running ultra high water pressures through the motor. Gaskets would need to be rated for this pressure.

I think the best heat removal modifications you can make is put in a slightly cooler thermostat that locks into place when it is open (minor mod). Also, use an air to air oil cooler, and a more effecient aluminum radiator. These are all available now aftermarket. These things would all help reduce heat in the engine.

Back to the topic. I doubt a thin layer of decking is going to cause heat problems, and would definitely do more benifit than good in high boost applications. I would just keep the shape as stock as possible, unless advised by a race team with emperical data showing improvements due to particular flow modifications. It would be interesting to see what the rally teams have come up with in this area. I'm sure they agree decking is a good idea for sure.

So essentially I'm agreeing with you. Don't mess with the flow unless you have more info!

Chuck D.

Well, definitely don't use that Devcon product in your block. I spoke to one of their technical representatives about it a month ago and he said DO NOT use this in an engine where it's exposed to water (wet) and heat. He said that the Devcon would not hold up to this.

On a side not, I found a machine shop that was willing to create the deck plates/braces for an open decked block but would require me to send the block halves to them. They didn't have a Subaru block on hand as they primarily work with Honda engines. They've got a CNC machine so it would've worked out perfectly but my block was already in the process of being bored and honed. In order to do the braces properly, they need to be installed before the bore and final finishes are done.

What about sleeves such as the ones mentioned above on a rs 2.5 block? Closed deck 2.5? I mean in theory the only thing the sti block has is the semi closed deck on the rs 2.5 right? Then you could use an older 2.5 block and have the advantage of the 2.2 closed deck. Any faults with this logic?

What about sleeves such as the ones mentioned above on a rs 2.5 block? Closed deck 2.5? I mean in theory the only thing the sti block has is the semi closed deck on the rs 2.5 right? Then you could use an older 2.5 block and have the advantage of the 2.2 closed deck. Any faults with this logic?

Sleeves are expensive but the best way to go in terms of strength. Generally, the sleeved applications you see (in the Subaru world) are for race use and/or folks with money to burn ;) I'd love to do that if my budget could stretch a bit further but after two engines over the last year and a half and I'm lucky to be even building another one right now. Having to come up with $800 for con rods right now sucks :eek:

BTW, has anyone successfully used the "Hard Blok" product in a Subaru block to date? I'm really tempted to get some and try it. My new block is an open deck with 100mm pistons, phase 1 balanced crank, forged rods, ACL race bearings, so the weak point will be the upper block cylinders.

I think that using some wooden dowels to drop down in place where the case bolts go and use a headgasket to mark up where the water flows and device some wooden inserts (basal wood maybe) there too. This way when it gets poured around the cast sleeves it'll leave the water pathways and case bolt holes unaffected.

I've tried calling the manufacturer a couple of times but they don't answer. I want more concrete evidence of their product on an aluminum block.

Seems you could get a slightly older Rs 2.5 block pretty cheap, get it sleaved for around $750-$1000 and then have a rock solid block capable of 30+ psi of boost. Any thoughts as to the cooling issue with a sleaved block?

[/QUOTE]Belzona 1111 (super metal)
http://www.belzona.com/1111.aspx


Larry[/QUOTE]


I checked on this stuff and it is badA$$!!!!!!


It costs $140 for 2.2lbs or 1kg !!!!

1kg or 2.2lbs is 24 cu.in. of material...


I will have to do some figuring on the area needed to be solidified... and drilled for water passages...

the gentleman I spoke to ( a local rep to Texas) said that this stuff is really incredible... he says you can build and repair aluminum blocks, aluminum heads, even where the cylinder heads bolt if a corner is damaged or eroded from corrosion or cracked off....

This stuff contracts and expands at almost the exact same rate as the cast aluminum....

he said that many pro engine builders around there use this stuff....

I think I am gonna try some soon.... seems like the way to fix the ole' Ej20T!!!!

GOOD DISCUSSION GUYS!!!
RYNO

I worked at a hot rod shop for 9.5 years... we used to sell hard block and moroso block filler.....

they are both ok, but I would recommend one of the aluminum composite epoxies or "metal-welds-fillers" like above on an aluminum block well before I would go with Hard block.... It is messy and hard to get to pour evenly across the top of the block, even turning the case half upside down and pouring from the water holes... it will be tough.... this stuff is not forgiving either, once you pour it, it is hard to remove..... it is done and sets very quickly....

bad choice IMO


RYNO

Seems you could get a slightly older Rs 2.5 block pretty cheap, get it sleaved for around $750-$1000 and then have a rock solid block capable of 30+ psi of boost. Any thoughts as to the cooling issue with a sleaved block?

I just had my phase 2 ej25 cobb block wetsleeved with darton iron sleeves. Its fully closed deck with the original cooling passages from the open deck motor. it should cool pretty well due to the fact it retains most of the stock cooiling ability...BUT I'm still going with an oil cooler and upgraded radiator. I'll let you know if I have any problems :)

Here's the response I got from Hard Blok. I had a few more questions for them so I'll post them up later when they get back to me. For now, here's a pretty non-scientific and not very specific answer they gave me :lol:


"Hard Blok has thermal expansion identical to cast iron. Your iron sleeves work in aluminum, so does Hard Blok. We have run it in 700 cu in aluminum mountain motors with excellent success.

H & H Specialties, Inc.
Phone: Sales and Tech 865-457-0509
Fax: 865-457-3805 "

On Tue Oct 17 9:16 , Todd sent:

Can you tell me if the Hard Blok product has been tested in an open cylinder deck motor such as a Subaru or Honda? I have an open decked Subaru motor that I want to use it in but am concerned if the Hard Blok filler will have a different rate of expansion etc compared to the aluminum block. It of course has the stock ductile iron liners cast into the aluminum.

Thanks,

Todd

BTW, has anyone successfully used the "Hard Blok" product in a Subaru block to date? I'm really tempted to get some and try it. My new block is an open deck with 100mm pistons, phase 1 balanced crank, forged rods, ACL race bearings, so the weak point will be the upper block cylinders.

I think that using some wooden dowels to drop down in place where the case bolts go and use a headgasket to mark up where the water flows and device some wooden inserts (basal wood maybe) there too. This way when it gets poured around the cast sleeves it'll leave the water pathways and case bolt holes unaffected.

I've tried calling the manufacturer a couple of times but they don't answer. I want more concrete evidence of their product on an aluminum block.



I've used this product many times in my domestic applications, and even suggested it to Ron at Axis over 3 years ago. He had never used it, so had no input. I tried it on a 2001 RS block much like what you described, but I used drill rod instead of balsa. I gave the block away about 9 months ago. I never assembled it.

We once had a 430" SBC that had cracked near the main web, and would leak into the oiling system...we filled it...and I mean filled it, and it's still alive today, making 5.0 ET 1/8th mile passes without a hitch. Hard Blok is good stuff.

S.

I agree that hard block is a wonderful product and it works awesome for the uses that you listed, but, I still question it's expansion and malleability (which it doesn't have much) when only used in a thin area such as the deck of an open deck block... it will only be about 1 inch thick or less most likely with holes in it....

I dunno, guess we will just have to try it then....

we still have the fact that the rods on the open deck motors are our weakest link. By the time we replace rods, and close the deck, you could have bought a better block to begin with...

we still have the fact that the rods on the open deck motors are our weakest link. By the time we replace rods, and close the deck, you could have bought a better block to begin with...

True true but the machine work had already got started on my open deck block and it was too late to turn back. The Phase 1 rods are $$$. Crower and Pauter are the only ones who make them. My crippled EJ257 is sitting back in my garage now and is being replaced by its Phase 1 cousin :lol: I'll be certain to let you guys know how it comes along.

P.S. The biggest difference between the phase 1 rod and the STi rod is at the point where the rod extends from the big end out. The STi rod flanges out wider there and is a little thicker across. Is this where the NA rods usually break?

Here's the response I got from Hard Blok. I had a few more questions for them so I'll post them up later when they get back to me. For now, here's a pretty non-scientific and not very specific answer they gave me :lol:


"Hard Blok has thermal expansion identical to cast iron. Your iron sleeves work in aluminum, so does Hard Blok. We have run it in 700 cu in aluminum mountain motors with excellent success.

H & H Specialties, Inc.
Phone: Sales and Tech 865-457-0509
Fax: 865-457-3805 "

On Tue Oct 17 9:16 , Todd sent:

Can you tell me if the Hard Blok product has been tested in an open cylinder deck motor such as a Subaru or Honda? I have an open decked Subaru motor that I want to use it in but am concerned if the Hard Blok filler will have a different rate of expansion etc compared to the aluminum block. It of course has the stock ductile iron liners cast into the aluminum.

Thanks,

Todd

Coefficient of thermal expansion of Hard Blok: 6.5 x 10(6) measured in in/in/degree F, according to ASTM C 531.

thats what i got from them, this means that the thermal expanstion is less than most cast aluminum which are usually about 9 x 10(6)....

you guys can make the call for urselves but i am going to give it a try when i get around to building my 2.5 sti block

I don't know if it's the same thing but it looks like this guy uses your hard blok stuff:

http://shepracing.com/racecar.php

I don't know if it's the same thing but it looks like this guy uses your hard blok stuff:

http://shepracing.com/racecar.php

That's an iron block AFAIK but thanks for posting it.

I don't know if it's the same thing but it looks like this guy uses your hard blok stuff:

http://shepracing.com/racecar.php

this is off topic but i love how he notes this at the bottem of his mod list

*Hallman boost controller set to 55 psi

Coefficient of thermal expansion of Hard Blok: 6.5 x 10(6) measured in in/in/degree F, according to ASTM C 531.

thats what i got from them, this means that the thermal expanstion is less than most cast aluminum which are usually about 9 x 10(6)....

you guys can make the call for urselves but i am going to give it a try when i get around to building my 2.5 sti block

I just received a call from a Hard Blok rep concerning my questions. He said that the expansion rate to aluminum and the compatibilty with water and coolant works just fine. He went on to say that they've used it in many aluminum race motors without issue. There is one problem though. Using this on a daily driver hasn't really been tested. He said rather than pouring in small section to fill the areas entirely and then drill passages but I might run into cooling problems. Hmmm, I'll really have to think this one through.

I just received a call from a Hard Blok rep concerning my questions. He said that the expansion rate to aluminum and the compatibilty with water and coolant works just fine. He went on to say that they've used it in many aluminum race motors without issue. There is one problem though. Using this on a daily driver hasn't really been tested. He said rather than pouring in small section to fill the areas entirely and then drill passages but I might run into cooling problems. Hmmm, I'll really have to think this one through.

all you need is some salt... like the drunkin honda guy did...

all you need is some salt... like the drunkin honda guy did...

That dude is famous :lol:

I wonder how difficult it'll be to drill through? You ever tried?

This is probably a stupid comment, but without looking back at hondaguy's step-by-step, I thought that he had somehow 'drained' the salt out after the stuff had hardened.

rinsed it out with water, as it's soluble.

rinsed it out with water, as it's soluble.

true story... as for drilling threw hardblock i assume it can't be much harder than aluminum which is cake as the metal is very soft...

it should be easy, cept for depth- cooling the dril bit can be difficult @ times. i prbly wud put a wood dowel with dry lube (pencil graphite cuz im poor) and yank it out, cept i duno wat goes thro tha cooling ducts (not xactly my strong suit) hey do u thnk ej251+sti low comp pistons and that alunminum crud will get me a basis 4 a dd turbo w/ MAX 375chp?

375chp is very easy to attain and the "closed deck" would be pretty overkill if the build is done right...regardless, expect a little piston slap @ start up if you're going to hone and run those pistons.

so this stuff is "resonably" easy to install eh ?

How hard is it to drill out the coolant passages once you fill the whole coolant area though ?? I sappose you would have to block the holes going to and from the block or whatnot...

I'm stuck between this stuff, and just simply installing dowels...

so this stuff is "resonably" easy to install eh ?

How hard is it to drill out the coolant passages once you fill the whole coolant area though ?? I sappose you would have to block the holes going to and from the block or whatnot...

I'm stuck between this stuff, and just simply installing dowels...

This would be ALOT cheaper.

This would be ALOT cheaper.

And would need MUCH less precision machining.


I wonder if you could use something like styrafoam to block the passages, then just melt it out with a torch real quickly, or I think acetone insta-melts styrafoam. Or make some sort of hardened rods out of salt or sugar and wash it out with water.

And would need MUCH less precision machining.


I wonder if you could use something like styrafoam to block the passages, then just melt it out with a torch real quickly, or I think acetone insta-melts styrafoam. Or make some sort of hardened rods out of salt or sugar and wash it out with water.
yes you could use foam but the biggest problem you would run into is that it expands so much... it would look like a little tube of it but in the end will most likely crap out the aluminum stuff you put in there. Also most foam is sooo sticky that it might bond with the aluminum.... just trust me.... i had to get new shoes last time i use it because it bonded to the soul. Not to mention it is toxic when it burns... I might not know alot about engines, but i have spent the last 4-6years helping and learning home improvment. I have to admit im pretty dam good with home improvment (flooring, wall removal and replacment, retileing, we have moved a bathroom down the hall, made all sorts of things, now we are making an addition to our garage, and then we will make a car port)! sory bout rant there...
but foam (first time you use it) is hell... it is just soo sticky....
I was thinking last night why not use some high grade metal piping cut to size, that way you can leave it in? or like copper fuel line stuff you get at pep boys? you can cut that to the height of the block easily then just push it in while the aluminum is wet, then take a small dowel and push out what is in the center. smooth off the top and bottom and let dry.
But i am still unsure; would the ej251 as a closed block handle 400chp? or is it just the pistons and rods and high comp that keeps the engine from handleing that power?

Any Subie owners try this *BUMP*

I will be doing it in about a month to an AUDM 2.0L Sti engine which will be stroked to 2.2L.

My block is already semi-closed, but since the block will be stripped down for the stroker kit, I thought I might as well try this out. That and the fact that the stroker kit components can supposedly spin to 10,000rpm, but I'm sure my block would limit that without being closed ;)

Also, I spoke with a friend (engine builder) and he said rather then screw around with doweling each water hole he would just machine/drill the water holes out after.

I think I'm going to sell my old EJ205 and buy a EJ251 open deck block from a friend and do this as well. I figure I can close the deck on the EJ251 and build that engine on the side until my Legacy GT motor pops. I'd just like to see what this can do for our engines.

I would like to share my idea regarding close decking a 2.2 or 2.0 block and would like any feedback.
My idea is to get a 2.2 or 2.0 open deck block "digitised" on renishaw scanning machine and create a dx file or whatever a plasma or router cutter use,and then get the plates cut. They could also be made oversize to allow for variances from block to block and be trimmed in to suit
The 2nd part is to find a welding shop with two pulse MIG welders and have them weld the plates in simultaneously around the bore then the block.
Having the welding done this way should keep the distortion to a minimum and being MIG less heat input than a tig.
Then have the block bored and surfaced true.
What do you all think.

you could also stitch weld it in with a syncowave...just have to run it like a torque pattern to keep pull "even"
then of course decking will be mandatory

being MIG less heat input than a tig.


Ummmm, isn't that backwards?

Ummmm, isn't that backwards?
Yes. I have done this on a B18 Honda...pics later.

There are stock 2.2l and 2.0l blocks out there . this is a waste of your time.
I've got Hard Block in my chevy V8 drag ,it is absolutly nessesary. About 1500hp for many seasons ,still have the block.
I got a closed deck 2.0l block if someone wants to buy it.

Ummmm, isn't that backwards?

Nope MIG=faster travel speed less heat input.
TIG you have to pour on the amps especially on a big heat sink like a engine case or you pre heat it.

Yes. I have done this on a B18 Honda...pics later.
Ground....
http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/9503/p1010790yi3.th.jpg (http://img221.imageshack.us/my.php?image=p1010790yi3.jpg)
Welded....
http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/9068/p1010791xc7.th.jpg (http://img147.imageshack.us/my.php?image=p1010791xc7.jpg)
Decked....
http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/4944/p1010817rg7.th.jpg (http://img182.imageshack.us/my.php?image=p1010817rg7.jpg)

will have to try this

I'm thinking of going with this company's closed deck 2.5, as mine blew a cyliner wall out yesterday :(

Does anybody have any input on this block ???

http://www.cgperformance.com/subaru_block.htm

I'm thinking of going with this company's closed deck 2.5, as mine blew a cyliner wall out yesterday :(

Does anybody ahve any input on this block ???

http://www.cgperformance.com/subaru_block.htm

quote from the site....
Generally speaking if your run over 10lbs of boost you need a closed deck block to be reliable.

:huh:
umm yeah id stay away

:lol: I can see it now....

Dear Subaru,

This site on the internet......

will have to try this
Keep in mind the block was decked and then honed after closing the deck as the brace will distort the cylinder walls.

quote from the site....

:huh:
umm yeah id stay away

Clueless, These have been done for sandcars long before the sti block came out, therefore the reference to 10 lbs.

quote from the site....

:huh:
umm yeah id stay away

That was an EJ25 NA engine not an EJ257 STi engine. And that is why they stated 10lbs. The STi is a semi-closed deck. I saw that and laughed real hard at first, then I looked hard at the two pics and saw it was the NA opened deck.

James

205's are open deck and regularly see far more than 10psi...

I'm thinking of going with this company's closed deck 2.5, as mine blew a cyliner wall out yesterday :(

Does anybody have any input on this block ???

http://www.cgperformance.com/subaru_block.htm

these guys have been around for a while now. I remember seening this back when I bought my 98 RS in like 02

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v691/maddog2020/000_0694.jpg


There's something very weird looking about that motor....:huh: OH YEA... 4 cylinders in a row... :unamused:

There's something very weird looking about that motor....:huh: OH YEA... 4 cylinders in a row... :unamused:

yeah it does look pretty wierd huh ? :p

its too bad they rev so much higher than ours :mad:

yeah it does look pretty wierd huh ? :p

its too bad they rev so much higher than ours :mad:Have you ever ridden in a Honda? They have zero low end at all.