Just thought some of you might be interested in a little letter I wrote the Fremont Police Department.........


Just a few questions on the legality of the red-light cameras in Fremont.

As it states in the CA vehicle code ( Section 21455.5, http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc21455_5.htm), "Only a governmental agency, in cooperation with a law enforcement agency, may operate an automated enforcement system". As you state on the website talking about the red light cameras ( http://www.fremontpolice.org/redlight/redlight.html ), "The Fremont Police Department and Redflex's Scottsdale, Arizona office will review the images for accuracy before issuing any citations. ". I find no proof that Redflex is a government agency, actually I find that Redflux's main company is located in Australia ( http://www.redflex.com.au/ ).

There has already been a big ruling on how the CA courts handle this type of illegal action, shown down in San Diego ( http://news.excite.com/news/r/010905/08/odd-cameras-dc ).

It is also curious as to the intersections that were picked for the cameras, since these intersections have not been timed with traffic flow, and with extremely short yellow lights.

I would like a response on this issue,

Philip

If anyone else would like to write regarding this issue, the person that is "taking questions" about red-light cameras is anair@ci.fremont.ca.us


Philip

Response:


Redflex Traffic Systems provides Fremont Police Department with the photographs and the Fremont Police Department is solely responsible for approving citations. Redflex cannot approve citations under any circumstances. As for the timing phase, the system does not in any way interfere with the timing phase...this is entirely controlled by our City Engineering department and all timing on all City of Fremont signals are in accordance with the Cal Trans requirements.

Our system is installed entirely to reduce Red-light runners which cause accidents that sometimes results in deaths and our traffic court, community and council is very much in support of this.

Thank you

Agnes Nair
Traffic Project Manager

For those that don't know why I am arguing this, its because I am compleately against how this is being implmented. I have not gotten a red-light ticket, nor do I think I ever will, but to me they are against my rights to even be put up.

I won't be e-mailing her back till I have more info than what I gave her, but I am almost positive that a state court will state it is illegal. Redflex themselves are stating that Fremont is a "BOOM" type of contract, which is "Build, Own, Operate, and Maintain". This would mean that the only "government part" is the issuing of the tickets, which goes against the CA vehicle code. Let alone going against your constutional right to confront your accuser in court........

Philip

Go Philip! :) I agree with what you are saying. I have never gotten a red light ticket but I don't think they should be there. I am sure a lot of people will be happy to see those things go. When i went to traffic school for my speeding ticket over half the people there had received a red light ticket.

Just thought a few of you might want to grab a copy of this document off the Redflex site, for "just in case".....

http://www.redflex.com.au/holdings/PDF%27s/Appendix%204B%2010-09-01.pdf

On page 5, it lists the cities that they have contracts with ( 4 CA cities), and mentions that they are "BOOM" contracts (Build, Own, Operate, Maintain), which to me makes this entire ordeal illegal. Just thought if someone does get in a situation with this kind of ticket and wanted to try to prove how illegal it is, this document could aid in that process.



I am working on my second e-mail to Fremont PD, it will include asking for contacts for any other departments that they mention, since just stating they "support us" does no good if "they" don't know what they are actually supporting. ;)

The things I do when I am bored.......

Philip

hey man, keep at it....
thanks for doing this for all of us!
thats all i wanted to say.
peace,
mk

Well I finally finished my reply.....


If the timing of the lights, where the Redflex equipment is attached, is controlled by city engineering, could you please give me some contact info (if you have a name or email address) regarding the person to contact. The timing maybe in accordance with Cal Trans requirements, but they leave a lot of room for improvement. I did not question if the red-light system interfered with the timing of the lights, but I did point to the obvious choices for the intersections since the majority of local residents know how bad the timing on those lights is.

Can you explain what involvement Redflex has in the day to day operation of the cameras?

In the CA Vehicle code that I previously mentioned (section 21455.5), "Only a governmental agency, in cooperation with a law enforcement agency, may operate an automated enforcement system". Further on in that code it talks about the privacy of the pictures that are taken from this type of enforcement, "...photographic records made by an automated enforcement system shall be confidential, and shall be made available only to governmental agencies and law enforcement agencies for the purposes of this article.". My understanding of these two statements is if Redflex is the working with the enforcement system, or if Redflex is allowed to see or shown the pictures taken with the devices, you are breaking the law. Your website on the red-light cameras state that at least the second is true, "The Fremont Police Department and Redflex's Scottsdale, Arizona office will review the images for accuracy before issuing any citations.", and thus these actions are illegal. Redflex's website has a link to a document
showing USA operations ( http://www.redflex.com.au/holdings/PDF%27s/Appendix%204B%2010-09-01.pdf ) which shows Fremont, CA and a few other CA cities in a BOOM style contract. BOOM stands for Build, Own, Operate, and Maintain, this would fall under the first statement in the Vehicle Code section, and also provide information that this action may be illegal.

You stated that you have traffic court, community, and council in support of this, but have these groups been told that the action that they are supporting is illegal? Also you failed to mention CA State Courts, or even the CA State government, because I think neither would support this sort of action.

If you would, I would like whatever contact information, that you are willing to pass my way, to these "supporting groups". I will be going to the news and the newspapers with this info in a short time, but I did want to try to find out why the city feels they are doing right to the people by committing illegal actions.

Regarding these cameras reducing accidents, how do you see this? The camera is in no way preventing people from running the light, and so in turn it is not reducing accidents anymore than normal enforcement. On contrary, the bright flash has already been mentioned to me various times as being a hazard. The camera's themselves are becoming an attraction for drivers to watch for instead of watching the road. If you are referring to accidents being reduced because drivers are being more aware of the lights, then I would agree on this term, but do not see the cameras as being the only option to do this.

Thank you for taking the time to speak with me and to aid me in finding answers to my many questions.

Philip


;)

Philip

[flame suit]

I think red light cameras are a good idea.

Don't jump the lights.

Don't get a ticket.

Don't drive into me while I'm legally going through an intersection.

If it's "against your rights" for red light cameras to be installed, where does my right not to be driven into by a red light jumper figure?

[/flame suit] :)

Speed cameras on the other hand are just plain evil.

Philip, very nice. Well written and to the point. Eagerly waiting for their reply.

If I understood Philip's reason for doing this correctly... it's not so much that it's a bad idea. but rather the way Fremont is doing it... also this is good info in case you get one of these tickets.

I actually saw a news story awhile back about this and they timed the yellow lights at these intersection and they were within the legal allowed time, but they were barely legal. FOR EXAMPLE: if the yellow has to stay on for 3-5 seconds, it was like 3.1 seconds where other intersections were in the 4s.

My reply from Agnes...


Phone Contact for City Engineering is 494-4745 for Traffic Signals.

Thanks



;)

gareth, The problems I have with it have nothing to do with stating red light running is legal. I am against the cameras being put up for financial gain, which is what they are doing. I actually would be for the cameras, if they were ran BY the police and if they would fix the short yellow light. The October issue of Automobile magazine has a great article on this (pg 25).

I am against the cameras for many reasons, but some of the reasons I could deal with, if the intersection was actually setup properly.

As I said before, I do not expect to get one of these tickets, since I do not run red lights and very rarely try to go through a yellow. But I am solely against the city using something that CA gave restrictions on, in a manor that would be considered illegal, just to gain profit.

BTW, San Jose has more cameras than Fremont, maybe more than even San Fran. They even have speed cameras, which the CA vehicle code states can not be used AT ALL.

Philip

Originally posted by Philip
I am against the cameras being put up for financial gain

So how would you penalize people who run red lights then? Stamp on their toes, scratch their cars? ;)

The money gathered in fines should be spent on raod improvements though.


in a manor that would be considered illegal

I know Fremont is nasty but as far as I know it ain't illegal yet :)

BTW I came here from the UK. So I *KNOW* about traffic enforcement cameras. You can't pick your nose while driving in the UK without getting a ticket.

So how would you penalize people who run red lights then? Stamp on their toes, scratch their cars?

Actually I feel that almost 90% of the tickets they give out, are people that was at that point of "slam on brakes, or just go through yellow", and since the yellow light wasn't set long enough they got a ticket. There have been tests in San Diego (talked about in Automobile magazine) and in VA (mentioned on www.motorist.org ) that they extended the time of the yellow light by just 1.5secs and the amount of tickets dropped majorly. Even with these tests it is a very easy method to try, and I don't think the city even went forth and tried.

I know Fremont is nasty but as far as I know it ain't illegal yet

Actually with the info I have access to, it does look like they are doing this illegally. Now they may not be, but I wouldn't put it past them. San Diego was doing it illegally for 2 years before they actually had to give up some of the money that they got from it (290 tickets out of over 10,000). CA vehicle code states specifically how cities can go about using photo enforcement in Section 21455.5, http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc21455_5.htm


I have seen videos of UK's photo enforcement with cameras being monitored watching the freeways....

If the cameras were ran by a government agency or local police like the CA vehicle code states (to make it legal), if they extended the yellow light after monitoring the intersection to judge the time based on real traffic more than simple speed limit math, and timed the traffic lights based on traffic flow..... I would be happy to have the cameras there...... I think how they are being used right now is wrong and illegal.

Philip

Originally posted by gareth


"in a manor that would be considered illegal"

I know Fremont is nasty but as far as I know it ain't illegal yet :)



manor/manner, ah nevermind :)

wasn't this in one of the federal courts and it got thrown out as unconsitutional?

I am no legal expert but doesn't violate one's right to be present when he is accused of a crime?

like when they give you a speding ticket they have to catch you in the act and give you the ticket on the spot not say I saw you last weekend at this road doing 100mph here is your ticket.


Cheers

T.

gareth,

what pisses people so much about these BOOM contracts is that in one of the links, it was discovered by the court that the duration of the yellow light was shortened on many of the red-light camera intersections driving up the revenues from these types of tickets.

In the states we call that racketeering, in addition to making the intersection even more unsafe than it was with out the camera.

Since the government doesn't abide by its own laws, it can't very well expect the general populace to do so, either.

So be defiant. Its your duty as a patriot. Take off your license plates. Go find a red light camera. Late at night, with no one around, intentionally run a light at slow speeds, say, 10 mph...hold up your carefully prepared cardboard sign that reads, legibly from 50 feet away "Fu@k off, pig nazis!"

Pure and simple civil disobedience is the answer to this kind of crap. The government wants to intrude on your privacy and violate your constitutional rights, but they can only do it if you cooperate by displaying your tracking number (license plate) in the fashion they insist upon.

Just remove your plates! Its a $10 fine. Theres plenty of excuses. Say your plates got stolen. Insist you are the victim of criminals who steal plates and instead of pulling you over and harassing you, perhaps the pig nazis should be doing something productive, like catching terrorists. Maybe you got your car detailed and the shop forgot to reinstall your plates. Anything. They can't prove you intentionally took them off.

When our government is abusive and petty, we have a mandate to pay them back in spades. As free people, with constutional rights, you have a responsibility to resist these Orwellian tactics.

Semper Fi

Originally posted by rex_ruthor
So be defiant. Its your duty as a patriot. Take off your license plates. Go find a red light camera. Late at night, with no one around, intentionally run a light at slow speeds, say, 10 mph...hold up your carefully prepared cardboard sign that reads, legibly from 50 feet away "Fu@k off, pig nazis!"

HAHAHAHA!!!! that is so cool....
i am going out with all my friends and doing that next week....
omg that is funny shiet....

peace,
mk