What rod and crank bearings is everyone using? I've been told that stock is just fine. Any suggestions on where to get the best deal? Local dealers are rape artists!

Stock is fine. Axis Racing has coated Clevite's-->cheaper. Cobb sells cheaper coated ones too.

Cosworth is now selling bearings. They are cheap also. You can get both rod and main bearings for around $100. They are coated as well.

The other like bboy said above are axis and Cobb. Cobb and cosworth just used stock bearings and coat them. Since manufacturing bearings and the machines to do it are ridiculously expensive. I have no idea about axis but you can bet that Axis doesnt make their own.

anyone think the stockers would hold up to about 600hp and 8500rpm?

Like it says on Cobbs website they use stock main bearings (coated) and non subaru, Performance coated rod bearings.

+1 for Clevite. They have been around for bloody forever with the v8 crowd and make very fantastic bearings. You can order them with any degree if imbedibility you want.

Like it says on Cobbs website they use stock main bearings (coated) and non subaru, Performance coated rod bearings.

Actually from the looks of my Cobb rod bearings they are stock bearings. They have the same numbers on the backside of the bearing. I think they have 2 different types though so maybe the other higher dollar bearing is a non subaru bearing.

I need main bearings though now since titan motorsports is reporting that cosworth is out of main bearings until mid April. Does anyone know where I can get bearings within a week?

i am using Cobb bearings, and based on my research, they are the only ones i would reccomend.

cubuff: Cobb usually has them in stock.

The stock bearings are NOT fine for high power and high reving applications. In fact, they're the first things we replace (with proprietary coated race bearings) along with the pistons in our stage 1 built blocks. Of the 2 dozen plus blown EJ257s we've seen about 40% of them have been because of bearing failure.

-Geoff

The stock bearings are NOT fine for high power and high reving applications. In fact, they're the first things we replace (with proprietary coated race bearings) along with the pistons in our stage 1 built blocks. Of the 2 dozen plus blown EJ257s we've seen about 40% of them have been because of bearing failure.

-Geoff

Sorry to hear that you are having problems with the stock bearings. We use them in our monster motors like the R3 in the Big Valley STI. After 200 passes, the bearings could have been re-used. But then again, it was tuned by Gadiel ;)

I've seen plenty of rod bearing failures that the tunner blamed on the bearings, instead of copping to their own lack of knowlage.

I've also seen business use fear as a sales tool. :mad: :mad: When a business trys to scare you into purchasing their products, beware!

Quirt Crawford

After building numerous motors for myself, circle track cars and a few friends, I'd say that I'm much more likely to spend money on things very far from a wrench, like engine internals, than i am on something that is easy to replace/change.

it's proven that the coated bearings, not jsut the ones that Cobb offers, have superior oil shear resistance and greater pressure carrying capacity.

when you look at the loading of subaru bearings, which are much narrower than say a small block chevy, they carry a large load for such a small bearing. compared to a small block, a subaru rod bearing carries about the same load per square inch of surface as a small block 350 making 750 hp.

when i figured that out, the choice to spend the extra bucks on coated bearings froma company that i trust it was easy.

After building numerous motors for myself, circle track cars and a few friends, I'd say that I'm much more likely to spend money on things very far from a wrench, like engine internals, than i am on something that is easy to replace/change.

it's proven that the coated bearings, not jsut the ones that Cobb offers, have superior oil shear resistance and greater pressure carrying capacity.

when you look at the loading of subaru bearings, which are much narrower than say a small block chevy, they carry a large load for such a small bearing. compared to a small block, a subaru rod bearing carries about the same load per square inch of surface as a small block 350 making 750 hp.

when i figured that out, the choice to spend the extra bucks on coated bearings froma company that i trust it was easy.

i just ran out to my shed where i have an small block chevy 350 on an engine stand next to my ej20 in peices on my work bench to see for myself and lets just say my face looked like this :eek: I didn't even think of it like that, but now, coated bearings it is. Now that i know they will hold up, all i need to do is get Gadiel to tune my car......

Sorry to hear that you are having problems with the stock bearings. We use them in our monster motors like the R3 in the Big Valley STI. After 200 passes, the bearings could have been re-used. But then again, it was tuned by Gadiel ;)

I've seen plenty of rod bearing failures that the tunner blamed on the bearings, instead of copping to their own lack of knowlage.

I've also seen business use fear as a sales tool. :mad: :mad: When a business trys to scare you into purchasing their products, beware!

Quirt Crawford

But then again, your engines NEVER fail as a result of your own doing. You always blame the tuners or installers. Quirt your rhetoric is getting old like your hairstyle.

Sorry to hear that you are having problems with the stock bearings. We use them in our monster motors like the R3 in the Big Valley STI. After 200 passes, the bearings could have been re-used. But then again, it was tuned by Gadiel ;)

I've seen plenty of rod bearing failures that the tunner blamed on the bearings, instead of copping to their own lack of knowlage.

I've also seen business use fear as a sales tool. :mad: :mad: When a business trys to scare you into purchasing their products, beware!

Quirt Crawford


Classy. Real nice.

Sorry to hear that you are having problems with the stock bearings. We use them in our monster motors like the R3 in the Big Valley STI. After 200 passes, the bearings could have been re-used. But then again, it was tuned by Gadiel ;) or Bill because they are the only tuners that are good and will not blow up my fragile POS engines.

I've seen plenty of rod bearing failures that the tuNer blamed on the bearings, instead of copping to their own lack of knowlEdge whereas I always blame everyone else for my engine failures.

I've also seen businessES use fear as a sales tool. :mad: :mad: When a business trIEs to scare you into purchasing their products, beware! But then again, I use anecdotal evidence from my "race days" and spend time talking about how engine building is all math to influence everyone to buy my products because I am teh fastAr!

Quirt Crawford

Fixed for you.

Oh BTW. I have an S3L that burned 1 qt of oil every 100 miles since day 1. It never reached normal oil pressure and also had the crawford performance bobble head piston design. Unfortunately, quirt blamed my tuner and installer for the engine problems and wouldnt own up to his own mistakes. I am not the first, nor the secord nor the third. I am sick of this guy going around pontificating. Quirt, get a clue and remember there is ALWAYS someone smarter and better than you.

damn thats deep

Gruppe-s, you are correct, I have been reading post about blown motors and the bearings do make up a lot of the failures.

Oh BTW. I have an S3L that burned 1 qt of oil every 100 miles since day 1. I never took it out or tried to find the problem cause I’m a lazy stoner. It never reached normal oil pressure and also had the crawford performance bobble head piston design. I know oil pressure has little to do with pistons. But I can’t get my car as fast as Crawford’s, so I have to think of some lame excuse. Unfortunately my scheme didn’t work, quirt blamed my tuner and installer for the engine problems that they probably caused and I am to chicken to own up to my own mistakes. I know I am not the first, nor the second nor the third to pass the buck. I am sick of this guy going around pontificating how I can be so dumb. Quirt, get a clue and remember there is ALWAYS someone smarter and better than you, but we all know it certainly isn’t me. Someone pass me a doobie!

Fixed for you :disco:

Mike

let's see... worldone, crawford, gruppe-s... maybe this could turn into a ****fest. hehe.

So, some say stock, some say this or that... people have proven race bearings to be dependable in all sorts of vehicles, and since they are cheap, is there a DOWNSIDE to forking out the cash (in a high hp build, $100 is nothing) instead of using stock OEM bearings? looking for some technical how-to on this one...

let's see... worldone, crawford, gruppe-s... maybe this could turn into a ****fest. hehe.

So, some say stock, some say this or that... people have proven race bearings to be dependable in all sorts of vehicles, and since they are cheap, is there a DOWNSIDE to forking out the cash (in a high hp build, $100 is nothing) instead of using stock OEM bearings? looking for some technical how-to on this one...

You are correct, the aftermarket coated race bearings are cheap. They cost three times "less" than the OEM bearings :eek: This is the reason that they are pushed by some builders, as they make three times the profit selling them ;)

That being said, I never said not to use the aftermarket bearings or that they were inferior. I was just calling out someone on their BS statement about the OEM bearings being bad :p



Dam, it looks like someone woke up sleepy... Thanks for pointing out a few facts :lol:



Quirt Crawford
www.crawfordperformance.com

After building numerous motors for myself, circle track cars and a few friends, I'd say that I'm much more likely to spend money on things very far from a wrench, like engine internals, than i am on something that is easy to replace/change.

it's proven that the coated bearings, not jsut the ones that Cobb offers, have superior oil shear resistance and greater pressure carrying capacity.

when you look at the loading of subaru bearings, which are much narrower than say a small block chevy, they carry a large load for such a small bearing. compared to a small block, a subaru rod bearing carries about the same load per square inch of surface as a small block 350 making 750 hp.

when i figured that out, the choice to spend the extra bucks on coated bearings froma company that i trust it was easy.

Hey Brian?

Are you using stock rods in your new motor?

Duncan

Fixed for you :disco:

Mike

Haha, go back under quirts desk.

Sleepy98-

Oh yeah forgot to mention that I will have a full oil loss analysis done on my short block in about a week or 2. Since we found no source of oil loss from any other component, we are removing the shortblock and spending ALOT of extra time doing the analysis. Hopefully, this combined with everything bruce went through, will help people to understand what a swindler Quirt is.

No matter what anyone thinks of me on here, I am DOWN for the community, if a place does good work and/or provides good products to me and my friends then they get the big tumbs up. If they act like quirt and his monkeys then I will continue to lash out against them.

Hey Brian?

Are you using stock rods in your new motor?

Duncan


yeah, STi rods. you forgot to cut me that check for two grand to buy Cobb titanium rods.

STi rods fit my current and future needs. teh cross section and heft is better than the 22T rods that everyone is agog about.

Sorry to hear that you are having problems with the stock bearings. We use them in our monster motors like the R3 in the Big Valley STI. After 200 passes, the bearings could have been re-used. But then again, it was tuned by Gadiel ;)

I've seen plenty of rod bearing failures that the tunner blamed on the bearings, instead of copping to their own lack of knowlage.

I've also seen business use fear as a sales tool. :mad: :mad: When a business trys to scare you into purchasing their products, beware!

Quirt Crawford

Honestly, I'm not even sure why I'm taking the time to respond to your thinly veiled accuastions that lack any factual basis. I find your comments extremely ironic and quite funny. Rather than beating around the bush as you seem so adept at doing, I'll cut to the chase and respond to your insinuations directly.

First off, these blown motors that we have seen were not tuned by us. In fact, to my knowledge, one of the motors that we've tuned has never been blown due to our tuning (knock on wood). I know this will raise some people's eye brows but if I'm wrong, or there is a case that I don't know of, please feel free to point it out. Tuning is like playing with fire but so far, we've had an excellent track record. Because we tune CUSTOMER'S cars, we're simply not willing to take large risks with their motors. I think you will find many many satisfied customers out there and very few if (dare I say) any unsatisfied customers (w/ regard to our tuning).

Second off, the stock bearings are far from crap and I never said they were crap; they're actually quite good but we are still of the opinion that for high horsepower and high reving applications, coated "race" bearings should be used. We are not using fear to sell our products; we are sharing the knowledge that we have gained through first hand experience. Rather than subtly deflaming our reputation, why don't you just say that your experience differs from ours?

let's see... worldone, crawford, gruppe-s... maybe this could turn into a ****fest. hehe.

So, some say stock, some say this or that... people have proven race bearings to be dependable in all sorts of vehicles, and since they are cheap, is there a DOWNSIDE to forking out the cash (in a high hp build, $100 is nothing) instead of using stock OEM bearings? looking for some technical how-to on this one...

Well actually, since some coated bearings are cheaper than the OE bearings, if the bearings in the block are being replaced anyways, you'll save money by going with better bearings. If you're replacing bearings that were otherwise going to be reused, then as you said, an extra $100 for a $2500+ shortblock is a worthy investment for a better product.

Quirt's comment about vendors pushing coated bearings because we make 3X the profit on them doesn't make sense. For that to be true, we'd have to be selling the aftermarket bearings for the same price as the OE bearings which, as everyone knows, isn't true since the aftermarket bearings are cheaper than the OE bearings. Incidentally, we don't even sell our coated bearings seperately from our motors.

Thanks,

Geoff

oh snap. good one Geoff.

Let me also point out that coating isn't the only treatment performed on these bearings. Some of the bearing are also treated (cyro or heat or both) to help improve thier impact/deformation resistance. These bearings are afterall under a very very high load. So any improvement in strength should be welcome.

That combined with a coating that improves lubricity make for one hell of a bearing. That is afterall why we have moly coatings on piston skirts.

And to the guy that said pistons have nothing to do with oil pressure (sleepy98), you are right. However, you're still a jackass. Because bearing tolerances DO have a LOT to do with oil pressure... and who sets the bearing tolerances??? THE ENGINE BUILDER! So if the same attention to detail is paid on piston to wall clearances, it's probably also used on setting bearing tolerances... If that doesn't make sense to you, I'll put it another way:
Pistons sloppy probably means something else is sloppy. Loose bearings = low oil pressure.

And to Dunk, this thread isn't about what rods Brian is using. He's provided good info on bearings. YOU provided.... jack. So shut it unless you have something usefull.

And to Dunk, this thread isn't about what rods Brian is using. He's provided good info on bearings. YOU provided.... jack. So shut it unless you have something usefull.

Just curious, no need to get nasty. I am using stock rods and bearings in my motor.

Duncan

yeah, STi rods. you forgot to cut me that check for two grand to buy Cobb titanium rods.

STi rods fit my current and future needs. teh cross section and heft is better than the 22T rods that everyone is agog about.

The check is in the mail. I swear.

Duncan

Let me also point out that coating isn't the only treatment performed on these bearings. Some of the bearing are also treated (cyro or heat or both) to help improve thier impact/deformation resistance. These bearings are afterall under a very very high load. So any improvement in strength should be welcome.

That combined with a coating that improves lubricity make for one hell of a bearing. That is afterall why we have moly coatings on piston skirts.

And to the guy that said pistons have nothing to do with oil pressure (sleepy98), you are right. However, you're still a jackass. Because bearing tolerances DO have a LOT to do with oil pressure... and who sets the bearing tolerances??? THE ENGINE BUILDER! So if the same attention to detail is paid on piston to wall clearances, it's probably also used on setting bearing tolerances... If that doesn't make sense to you, I'll put it another way:
Pistons sloppy probably means something else is sloppy. Loose bearings = low oil pressure.

And to Dunk, this thread isn't about what rods Brian is using. He's provided good info on bearings. YOU provided.... jack. So shut it unless you have something usefull.

Thanks for the confirmation!!! The engine builder is definately to blame for my engine problems since everything else checks out ok. And unlike alot of ppl, I will provide a detailed oil consumption analysis for everyone to see so everyone can stay FAR FAR away from crawford's POS engines. You are absolutely correct about pistons having nothing to do with oil pressure and WE ALL KNOW THIS. I just wanted to comment what was happening with my bobbleheaded crawford engine.

And sleepy98 will get what's coming to him as he and I will both be at Rim this year and he is going to see what a jackass I can be in person when I am pissed. :mad: And notice how how Quirt Mulletford has nothing to say anymore :lol: , glad that he is going to be there too. I dont take kindly to someone charging me 3600 for a POS engine that never held oil. Quirt, I'll be there at Rim and I intend to straighten things out.

Sorry to hear that you are having problems with the stock bearings. We use them in our monster motors like the R3 in the Big Valley STI. After 200 passes, the bearings could have been re-used. But then again, it was tuned by Gadiel ;)

Lets see, 200 passes @ 12 sec a pass (worst case), is about 40 minutes of engine time. Is that your measure of what constitutes a "good" rod bearing - 40 minutes of competition time?

And of course, that's going in a straight line...

How about cars that have to brake and turn also and last > 40 minutes between rebuilds?

Thanks for the confirmation!!! The engine builder is definately to blame for my engine problems since everything else checks out ok. And unlike alot of ppl, I will provide a detailed oil consumption analysis for everyone to see so everyone can stay FAR FAR away from crawford's POS engines. You are absolutely correct about pistons having nothing to do with oil pressure and WE ALL KNOW THIS. I just wanted to comment what was happening with my bobbleheaded crawford engine.

And sleepy98 will get what's coming to him as he and I will both be at Rim this year and he is going to see what a jackass I can be in person when I am pissed. :mad: And notice how how Quirt Mulletford has nothing to say anymore :lol: , glad that he is going to be there too. I dont take kindly to someone charging me 3600 for a POS engine that never held oil. Quirt, I'll be there at Rim and I intend to straighten things out.

Seriously... you are an inch from being tossed off NASIOC. Everything you type is dripping with slander and bitterness. I really don't care how pissed you are about what happened to your car. Don't come in my house and do this. Especially since you, as well as everyone else was warned in an earlier thread. Do it one more time please... It'll make my life much simpler to not have to babysit people like yourself posting on NASIOC. This is the absolute last warning about posts like this. Grow up!

lible sweety.

Lets see, 200 passes @ 12 sec a pass (worst case), is about 40 minutes of engine time. Is that your measure of what constitutes a "good" rod bearing - 40 minutes of competition time?

And of course, that's going in a straight line...

How about cars that have to brake and turn also and last > 40 minutes between rebuilds?

Now that's pretty silly and even a poorer analogy.

Seriously... you are an inch from being tossed off NASIOC. Everything you type is dripping with slander and bitterness. I really don't care how pissed you are about what happened to your car. Don't come in my house and do this. Especially since you, as well as everyone else was warned in an earlier thread. Do it one more time please... It'll make my life much simpler to not have to babysit people like yourself posting on NASIOC. This is the absolute last warning about posts like this. Grow up!


Nick, it’s reassuring to see you putting these purveyors of misinformation and lies in there place.

Hopefully you can start a trend to clean up NASIOC so it does not degenerate any further from the “keyboard warriors” and their tireless crusade to rid your site of the vendors that do not agree with their personal opinions or the opinions of their personal Subaru Guru.

Quirt Crawford

Blingus may be acerbic and dramatic, but many feel the same way. I think Mr. Crawford used to enjoy a more credible reputation and opinion on these forums than he does at the present time. I have enjoyed learning from Mr. Crawford even when his comments are so emphatic as to be taken with suspicion.

Unfortunately some of Crawford's engines have failed rather spectacularly in the last 6 months with little more than defensiveness and smugness on the part of Crawford Performance. While I'm sure they have built many fine engines, I'm certainly less inclined to make a purchase given their rather public lack of customer support and shifting of responsibilty to nearly anyone else involved except themselves.

Here are a couple of bookmarked articles I have on bearings, the one is a bit dated. I looked into the cost of custom bearings but that was extreme for a one off. I think that some of the vendors have just had custom bearing made for them, and with the high expense of the stock bearings, it's pretty easy to pass on savings to the their customers--and probably better bearings.

http://stockcarracing.com/techarticles/scrp_0509_coated_bearings/
http://www.aa1car.com/library/ar797.htm

Blingus may be acerbic and dramatic, but many feel the same way. I think Mr. Crawford used to enjoy a more credible reputation and opinion on these forums than he does at the present time. I have enjoyed learning from Mr. Crawford even when his comments are so emphatic as to be taken with suspicion.

Unfortunately some of Crawford's engines have failed rather spectacularly in the last 6 months with little more than defensiveness and smugness on the part of Crawford Performance. While I'm sure they have built many fine engines, I'm certainly less inclined to make a purchase given their rather public lack of customer support and shifting of responsibilty to nearly anyone else involved except themselves.

Here are a couple of bookmarked articles I have on bearings, the one is a bit dated. I looked into the cost of custom bearings but that was extreme for a one off. I think that some of the vendors have just had custom bearing made for them, and with the high expense of the stock bearings, it's pretty easy to pass on savings to the their customers--and probably better bearings.

http://stockcarracing.com/techarticles/scrp_0509_coated_bearings/
http://www.aa1car.com/library/ar797.htm


Please list these engines you are speaking of that have "failed rather spectacularly" and the cause of the failures.

Thanks,

Quirt Crawford
www.crawfordperformance.com

Please list these engines you are speaking of that have "failed rather spectacularly" and the cause of the failures.

Thanks,

Quirt Crawford
www.crawfordperformance.com (http://www.crawfordperformance.com)

oh come on.

Just because nick backed you on a post doesn't mean that your entire reputation has been restored. Nor does that mean that you can say whatever you want.

Quirt, I have asked you in numerous posts to tell us what type of quality control, specs and parameters you use when building your engines. You have yet to ever be anything more than vague. I am more than willing to believe that some tuners are at fault for engine failures IF you could provide some sort of proof that your shop is incapable of making errors. Or when errors do occur that you promptly fix and compensate as is appropriate.

That's all any of us want. We want to see some customer service, some accountability and some technical know how.

So PLEASE, give people a reason to stop dogging you. Please answer our questions, PLEASE tell us how well you build these engines and PLEASE if you do goof up once in a while (everyone does) take responsibility for it and fix it.

Personally I'm tired of seeing posts where people flame Crawford Performance. So instead of sidestepping, ignoring or being vague, answer the questions, restore your reputation and fix your errors... for YOUR sake and the suby lovers.

Thanks.

oh come on.

Just because nick backed you on a post doesn't mean that your entire reputation has been restored. Nor does that mean that you can say whatever you want.

Quirt, I have asked you in numerous posts to tell us what type of quality control, specs and parameters you use when building your engines. You have yet to ever be anything more than vague. I am more than willing to believe that some tuners are at fault for engine failures IF you could provide some sort of proof that your shop is incapable of making errors. Or when errors do occur that you promptly fix and compensate as is appropriate.

That's all any of us want. We want to see some customer service, some accountability and some technical know how.

So PLEASE, give people a reason to stop dogging you. Please answer our questions, PLEASE tell us how well you build these engines and PLEASE if you do goof up once in a while (everyone does) take responsibility for it and fix it.

Personally I'm tired of seeing posts where people flame Crawford Performance. So instead of sidestepping, ignoring or being vague, answer the questions, restore your reputation and fix your errors... for YOUR sake and the suby lovers.

Thanks.

Thanks for yet another attempt at of trying to making something out of nothing. I ask a question aimed at getting some FACTS as opposed to personal opinions, and I get my question answered with a question,,, how convenient.

I have never said that our shop “is incapable of making errors”, we are human and make errors on a regular basis. And when we make an error, we take care of it as opposed to blaming it on someone else. This is how we got our reputation, not on an internet chat board where people can make accusations without any data to back up their claims.
You say that you are willing to believe some tuners could be at fault if we can prove that our shop is incapable of making errors?... That is quite the statement as it would be impossible for you to be wrong in this situation, no one is is capable of not making errors.

I do not have to tell you the specks, parameters and the process of how we build our motors. This is information that we give to our customers if they ask.

“Personally I'm tired of seeing posts where people flame Crawford Performance”
I find this statement hard to believe, as doing a search on your past posts shows that you are one of the flamers and seem to revel in it.

Quirt Crawford

And when we make an error, we take care of it as opposed to blaming it on someone else.
ever since i have been a part of the subaru community, your website has always bashed something not your own in some way or form. its rather telling of your business/business practices.

“Personally I'm tired of seeing posts where people flame Crawford Performance”
I find this statement hard to believe, as doing a search on your past posts shows that you are one of the flamers and seem to revel in it.

Quirt Crawford


Ever get tired of having sex with the same girl? Good for a while, but just gets boring and tedious.... yeah same thing.:D

[pleading tone]

Seriously, though, Quirt I really am trying to help you understand that there is some extreme displeasure in the way things have been handled over there. I really am begging you to step up and do something that looks best for you and your company.

I have flamed in the past, but if you read properly, my posts weren't illogical or strictly bashing snide remarks. I have asked legit questions and didn't get legit answers.

I appologize that internet tone is hard to judge. I have this problem a lot.

I hope that we can get this topic back to bearings. I'll leave you to your exploits. What you do is obviously up to you. Just know that as it currently stands there are many people who will not buy your product because of what you find in the forums. You CAN restore your good name and get those potential customers back. I used to be one.

If you fix errors like you claim, then please ask your customers to tell us about the good experience. We'd all love to hear it, and it could ONLY help.
[/pleading tone]

I been in the market to get a 2.5 block for a few months now and post like this is holding me back in which shop to trust or spend my money.
I been reading post from Crawford , Axis and Group-S and all of them the have same debated in which ones is better or what to get… Coated bearings, factory bearings, CP piston or wiseco, factory rods or Pauter, balance crank shaft to 10,000 RPM or not.

I think all shops are allow to make mistake but when we spend 3000 to 4000 dollars in a motor built up I rather have it done right the firth time no question ask. For many Subaru owners our cars are daily drivers and we can not afford to stop our cars for weeks or months… We need to do the swap ask quick as possible and get on with our life with less worries on our motors them before the motor built up.

Well let see what time will tell with all of this debates how can we trust with our money..
I really hope when I order my new motor I make the correct decision because I am to far from the USA and to busy for my car to start been a problem on my life.


Jose

Well Jose its simple then. Get a Gruppe-s engine if you want reliability and no problems. After hearing this and that about crawford and axis motors I started to try and find customers with gruppe-s engines and none are having problems. Some of these engines are 3-4 years old too!

Thank for the response...
Group S is one of my top choises at this moment.

Jose

So what vendors sell aftermarket bearings?? I notice Gruppe-S said they don't sell theirs separate from their staged motors.

So what vendors sell aftermarket bearings?? I notice Gruppe-S said they don't sell theirs separate from their staged motors.
I think Cobb does - take a look: http://cobbtuning.com/sti/engine-internals.html#rbearings

...Everything you type is dripping with slander and bitterness...
With all due respect, you could have just as easily pointed to post #10 - that's where this thread initially went sideways and everything therafter was a reaction. It is right there for everyone to see: Crawford clearly meant to impugn Gruppe-S.

Nonetheless, I'm glad you chilled it out a bit. The party was gettin' a bit heated...on both sides.

So what vendors sell aftermarket bearings?? I notice Gruppe-S said they don't sell theirs separate from their staged motors.

You can get ACL brand "Race" and/or "Standard" bearings from various shops. I ended up with mine through the coatings people that I used. For the race series bearings they were good value compared to OE Subaru bearings as they're better suited for higher power levels. Here's a link to ACL http://www.aclperformance.com.au/tech_bearings_cr.htm

Well, funny there is all this talk about bearings. We just decided to sell the bearings we use separately from our motors due to high demand for them. Sooo, if anyone is interested, we do offer the bearings separately. I'll just put this out there since it's bound to get out anyways: We use coated ACL bearings.

Thanks,

Geoff

Great to hear!!

Well, funny there is all this talk about bearings. We just decided to sell the bearings we use separately from our motors due to high demand for them. Sooo, if anyone is interested, we do offer the bearings separately. I'll just put this out there since it's bound to get out anyways: We use coated ACL bearings.

Thanks,

Geoff

WHAT?!?!?! You let out proprietary information about your custom bearings!!! You mean to tell me that you let this out to better the subaru community instead of keeping it a "trade secret" so you can make money off this product? What is this world coming to? :lol: :devil:

Sorry to hear that you are having problems with the stock bearings. We use them in our monster motors like the R3 in the Big Valley STI. After 200 passes, the bearings could have been re-used. But then again, it was tuned by Gadiel ;)

I've seen plenty of rod bearing failures that the tunner blamed on the bearings, instead of copping to their own lack of knowlage.

I've also seen business use fear as a sales tool. :mad: :mad: When a business trys to scare you into purchasing their products, beware!

Quirt Crawford

unreal. just by this post I wouldnt buy anything from you. grow up a bit

Is it an acl coating or calico

There are people out here that have Crawford motors without any problems. Everyone tries to make it sound like we are the exception and not the rule. To be honest with you I find it the other way around, I have had no problems with my motor, nor the customer service that Crawford has given me since I started dealing with him. I have said it over and over again, I feel like there are some other good builders out there, I just happened to go with Crawford and have been satisfied. Yes there is some oil consumption, but it is nothing that needs to be lloked into, as any motor with forged pistons will use oil. I am tired of reading an interesting post, that turns into a bash fest. I think people just need to take care of their issues in a more respectfull manner. AS far as bearrings go, I feel that any of the bearrings on the market right now would do fine, but just as in every other part of the motor building proccess, it depends on budget, and what your goals for the motor are.

Well gee thanks for hte Crawford plug and saving it by throwing useless bearing information at the end.

Anyway, Geoff thanks for the info about the coated bearings and that you sell them. Quirt, thanks for the info on oem bearings. If BV can use em, I guess most of us can too.

1. high output engines make crankcase pressure fact of life without a dry dump, those gases find there way out some where
2. crank case pressure doesn't seat rings well
3. Does anyone really have enough mileage on their motors to make a descision either way about which bearing is better
4. every single exploded race motor I have ever torn down did not fail because of its bearings-oil starvation, to low a temp at start up, debris, impact, bent crank, poor main bearing alignment, what ever there should never be metal to metal contact. I pulled the bearing out of my eg33 which has lived in the cold, abused, with 110k on the clock, ect... no significant wear, with a coating what is visible but not detectable by touch wouldn't even be there
5. I pulled down a cup motor with one daytona 500 and about 500 dyno pulls no wear on its coated clevites period.
6. My sympathys to anyone in the shortblock business. I worked for a crate motor business last summer and we at least got to test our engines on the dyno before they went out the door. Building a shortblock and selling it to someone who may or may not finish the job properly is a scary business.

Crawford, If I were to purchase a short block from you, is the short block already assembled or waiting to be put together? If it is not put together, upon request can you install coated bearings? Gruppe-s the same applies to you. I will have a daily driver and I do not want the pistons or bearings to go. I am not really worried about rods since the Sti rods are "forged" and I'm not going for big power

^^Call 'em up - it'll be a lot faster.

Crawford, If I were to purchase a short block from you, is the short block already assembled or waiting to be put together? If it is not put together, upon request can you install coated bearings? Gruppe-s the same applies to you. I will have a daily driver and I do not want the pistons or bearings to go. I am not really worried about rods since the Sti rods are "forged" and I'm not going for big power

Some of our blocks are on the shelf and ready to go with coated bearings installed... If you have a particular block in mind, we can assemble it with coated bearings.
That will increase the profit enough to take my family out to dinner. :)

Quirt Crawford
www.crawfordperformance

1. high output engines make crankcase pressure fact of life without a dry dump, those gases find there way out some where
2. crank case pressure doesn't seat rings well
3. Does anyone really have enough mileage on their motors to make a descision either way about which bearing is better
4. every single exploded race motor I have ever torn down did not fail because of its bearings-oil starvation, to low a temp at start up, debris, impact, bent crank, poor main bearing alignment, what ever there should never be metal to metal contact. I pulled the bearing out of my eg33 which has lived in the cold, abused, with 110k on the clock, ect... no significant wear, with a coating what is visible but not detectable by touch wouldn't even be there
5. I pulled down a cup motor with one daytona 500 and about 500 dyno pulls no wear on its coated clevites period.
6. My sympathys to anyone in the shortblock business. I worked for a crate motor business last summer and we at least got to test our engines on the dyno before they went out the door. Building a shortblock and selling it to someone who may or may not finish the job properly is a scary business.

Thanks VTsuby, it's good to hear some positive / usefull information ;)

Quirt

quirt can you just confirm your stance on coated main bearings, do you think in your opionion there
a/ a waste of money, as there an inferiour product
b/ a good product that will pay for its self when your engine DOESNT sieze
c/ a clever marketing ploy made by every other company to make profit



ill be honest im still on the fence on coatings for main bearings as the crank in theory shouldnt come into contact with the bearing as it should be floating on the oil layer

quirt can you just confirm your stance on coated main bearings, do you think in your opionion there
a/ a waste of money, as there an inferiour product
b/ a good product that will pay for its self when your engine DOESNT sieze
c/ a clever marketing ploy made by every other company to make profit



ill be honest im still on the fence on coatings for main bearings as the crank in theory shouldnt come into contact with the bearing as it should be floating on the oil layer

A: They are not a waste of money as they are cheaper than the OEM bearings, and I think the quality of the ACL bearings are up to par.
B: A good product, yes. Better than the OEM bearings?, we use both and have not seen a trend either way. The coated bearings will not help you the least bit if your tune is off, as they will beat out just the same... Or a higher quality bearing will not make up for a poor tune.
C: Clever marketing is what makes the business world turn ;)

The main bearings in the Subaru motor are indestructible as long as there is oil in the motor, and your comment about the crank floating on a layer of oil is correct. The rod bearings have the same oil layer as the mains and this is what is squished out during detonation.

Choose the bearing that gives you the most comfort as neither will let you down :)

Quirt

so basicaly as long as yuo have a decent oil flow its all good

ya know quirt that last comment completely changed my view on you ! so much so ill repeat it

"Choose the bearing that gives you the most comfort as neither will let you down"

6. My sympathys to anyone in the shortblock business. I worked for a crate motor business last summer and we at least got to test our engines on the dyno before they went out the door. Building a shortblock and selling it to someone who may or may not finish the job properly is a scary business.
But you do test them. Not always practical, but the next best thing is measuring the parts to a blueprint/manufacturer spec.

Crawford, If I were to purchase a short block from you, is the short block already assembled or waiting to be put together? If it is not put together, upon request can you install coated bearings? Gruppe-s the same applies to you. I will have a daily driver and I do not want the pistons or bearings to go. I am not really worried about rods since the Sti rods are "forged" and I'm not going for big power

Like Crawford, we stock some of our blocks but others need to be assembled. All of our blocks use coated ACL bearings.

Thanks,

Geoff

so basicaly as long as yuo have a decent oil flow its all good

ya know quirt that last comment completely changed my view on you ! so much so ill repeat it

"Choose the bearing that gives you the most comfort as neither will let you down"

Good oil flow and a det free tune.

Thanks for the kind words :)

Quirt

coated bearings reduce operating temps (due to lower coefficient of friction) of the bearings in theory making them stronger. Other than a slight decrease in engine friction I think the big benifit for the street is coated bearings are great for cold starting when the viscosity of the oil is too high.

Coated bearings are for start up or sudden loss of oil pressure, or trying to tighten up clearances.

A shop that does Coating told me years ago, NASCAR would run there gear boxes with no oil for qualifying, just coated gears and bearings.

The last engine I assembled, the rod bearing clearance was set at .0025. I installed a set of Cobbs coated rod bearings. When I would rotate the rod I would feel a very light tight spot. I removed these bearings and in stalled a set of stock Subaru bearings, same clearance .0025, the rods felt perfect. This engine runs Stock bearings.

If someone is running aftermarket bearing and having good results, great! The Subaru bearings are a little costly.

thanks for the info guys

A shop that does Coating told me years ago, NASCAR would run there gear boxes with no oil for qualifying, just coated gears and bearings.
I suppose anything is possible in racing, but this is pretty tough to believe.

I suppose anything is possible in racing, but this is pretty tough to believe.

That’s why there are Winners and Losers.

Ah, so you believed him. An old friend of mine wrenched for the Wood Brothers in the mid-70's - I'll ask him if he ever heard of this.

"I suppose anythings possible in racing"
like duck tape making a car faster...LOL

Hey, don't knock duct tape - it's in every tool box I own. :lol:

That’s why there are Winners and Losers.
I talked with my buddy, and he had a good laugh at this one. He said he'd never heard of it, but with all the cheating going on "something that dumb wouldn't surprise him." He said to pass on, "That ain't the difference between winners and losers, that's the difference between starters and DNQ's. We believed in lubrication, and so did just about everybody else."

I talked with my buddy, and he had a good laugh at this one. He said he'd never heard of it, but with all the cheating going on "something that dumb wouldn't surprise him." He said to pass on, "That ain't the difference between winners and losers, that's the difference between starters and DNQ's. We believed in lubrication, and so did just about everybody else."
Ah, so you believed him?

They would do this to qualify, and then set the car back up for the race. You need to learn how to read between the lines.

Why did you not ask Einstein about your blow-by problem you have? Not smart enough to help?

Like I said before WINNERS AND LOSERS!

oh calm down.

His friend worked for a pit crew in the mid 70's. That's probably long before what you are talking about happened. I doubt they even coated bearings back then.

Why did you not ask Einstein about your blow-by problem you have? Not smart enough to help?
Huh? What is your problem? I said nothing to deserve some inane, backhanded comment like that. (And, btw, "DNQ" means Did Not Qualify. My buddy thinks you got your leg pulled, as do I.)

Put the hootch away, take a breath, and lighten up.

Huh? What is your problem? I said nothing to deserve some inane, backhanded comment like that. (And, btw, "DNQ" means Did Not Qualify. My buddy thinks you got your leg pulled, as do I.)

Put the hootch away, take a breath, and lighten up.

...Yes, as someone "who knows", he did get his leg pulled. No oil in a gear box? Not gonna happen when you are spending that kind of money. Coatings are usually good stuff, but don't believe everything you are told about them.

It's funny to hear people who have never built an engine or don't know the first thing about it go on and on about bearings and such. I'll probably get bashed for saying this, but a lot of people shouldn't be posting statements in threads like this. The should limit their posts to questions...and not take the answers as gospel.

Bump!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


************************ACL BEARING USERS********************

are you using the Race or Standard bearings?


quoted from tmarcel earlier in the thread:

You can get ACL brand "Race" and/or "Standard" bearings from various shops. I ended up with mine through the coatings people that I used. For the race series bearings they were good value compared to OE Subaru bearings as they're better suited for higher power levels. Here's a link to ACL http://www.aclperformance.com.au/tech_bearings_cr.htm