First bombs have now fell on Kabul...

Just to remind you all, the chances of more terrorist attacks was 100% if we attacked. Everyone stay safe.

and 100% if we didn't....

"Major Attack" says official guy on MSNBC. President to address nation soon as well, I believe.

Time to start firing 2 million dollar missles at empty tents and hitting camels in the butt.

It's about time :)

Eric

It's being covered on BBC news at the moment. Bombs have fallen on Kandahar also.

"Long Range Bombers and Cruise Missles", says MSNBC correspondant at the Pentagon. They are currently "softening" the target to allow for a larger presence in Afghanistan. They may, in fact, set up a US base in Afghanistan. This is just the "First Wave", in what will be a long and continued military presence.

Taking out AAA, fuel, ammo dumps, electricity most likely. Tomahawk Cruise missles, missles with 'submunitions', B2 carrying Joint Attack Munitions, also carpet bombing are all possibilities...

Originally posted by alexs001
Time to start firing 2 million dollar missles at empty tents and hitting camels in the butt.

I think you will find that is one thing that definately wont be happening. They have held back for weeks to allow precise actions to occur. This isnt going to be a case of throwing cruise missiles at Kabul indescriminately.

It sounds like just 4 targets have been hit in Kabul. The electricity has been shut off in the city.

Bush is on TV right now saying US and British troups are involved in this right now.

President Bush (not verbatim, some paraphrasing):

Military has begun strikes against Al-queda. These attacks are meant to disrupt the use of Afghanistan as a terrorist base of action. Great Britian is helping, and many other countries have pledged support. Sustained, comprehensive operations to stop terrorists. We will provide humanitarian aid, food to afghan citizens. We will win this conflect by the patient accumliation of sucess. Today we focus on Afghanistan, but the battle is broader. Every nation has a choice to make, in this conflict there is no neutral ground.

"we will not tire, we will not falter, and we will not fail"

In the months ahead, our patience will be our strength.

We are a peaceful nation. This military action called 'Enduring Freedom'.


Bush actually uses the term 'War'.

may this war be not a day shorter than it needs to be, nor a day longer than it needs to be.

-T

What i found very significant in his talk was that he named the Taleban as the enemy for the first time. Upto now the oficial objective has been to wipe out OBL and his group and support the people of Afghanistan to run their own government, i.e. Not the Taleban. What has changed is he has said directly that the taleban is the enemy. You may think this is a subtle change but it's very significant!

I think you will see weeks and weeks of these selective targets being hit. This is a very diferent type of action to desert storm.

Right now British and USA forces are active in this. Canada, France and Germany have pledged forces. In reality the whole of NATO must supply forces if requested by the USA. That is what article 5 of the NATO charter being invoked was all about a few weeks ago. I doubt they will actually call on that for a while if at all.

Kandaha Airport has been badly damaged. Kandahar is the HQ of the Taleban Government. There are also reports of 3 training camps being hit, uncomfirmed right now.

Taliban officials say:

"We are ready for Jihad"
"Missles have caused no damage; they have hit the desert"

I highly doubt the missles and bombs caused no damage. Although I don't doubt they are ready for 'Jihad'.

Just been anounced that these atacks were made from British and US submarines using tomohawk cruise missiles.

They said that some of the AAA was aimed at the cruise missles :lol:

Video of Osama Bin Laden from Afghan TV station, Bin Laden says:

"Americans will never feel safe or secure until we feel safe and secure"
"All Muslims come join the fight"

IMHO, the proverbial shyt is going to hit the fan.

Not quite sure what you mean Fido. It's quite obvious that OBL is trying to make this an Islam V the west issue. Thats why Bush and Blair have been very direct in saying this is not a war against the peacefull religion of Islam.

There is a major propoganda war going on here. Remember OBL is trying to influence people all over the world with his statements, they arent aimed at us, more at people who may support him.

And by the way, Bin Laden has had a fatwa against the USA for years, this is nothing new.

Oh great here we go! I was hoping this would never happen!:( No way to avoid it now.

Sean

I have been really busy and out of town so i havent been able to hear about any of this. Thanks again for informing me.:D
zac

Here is the full text of Prime Minister Tony Blair's statement given after the start of the US and British military strikes on targets in Afghanistan on Sunday.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As you all know from the announcement by President Bush, military action against targets inside Afghanistan has begun.

I can confirm that UK forces are engaged in this action.

I want to pay tribute at the outset to Britain's armed forces. There is no greater strength for a British prime minister and the British nation at a time like this to know that the forces we are calling upon are amongst the best in the world.

They and their families are of course carrying an immense burden at this moment and will be feeling deep anxiety, as will the British people, but we can take great pride in their courage, their sense of duty, and the esteem with which they are held throughout the world.

No country lightly commits forces to military action and the inevitable risks involved.

We made clear following the attacks upon the US on 11 September that we would take action once it was clear who was responsible.

There is no doubt in my mind, nor in the mind of anyone who has been through all the available evidence, including intelligence material, that these attacks were carried out by the al-Qaeda network headed by Osama Bin Laden.

Equally it is clear that they are harboured and supported by the Taleban regime inside Afghanistan. It is now almost a month since the atrocity occurred.

It is more than two weeks since an ultimatum was delivered to the Taleban to yield up the terrorists or face the consequences.

It is clear beyond doubt that the Taleban will not do this. They were given the choice of siding with justice, or siding with terror. They chose terror.

There are three parts, all equally important, to the operation in which we are engaged - military, diplomatic and humanitarian.

The military action we are taking will be targeted against places we know to be involved in the al-Qaeda network of terror or against the military apparatus of the Taleban.

The military plan has been put together mindful of our determination to do all we humanly can to avoid civilian casualties.

I cannot disclose how long this wave of action will last. But we will act with reason and resolve.

We have set the objective to pursue those responsible for the attacks, to eradicate Bin Laden's network of terrorism and to take action against the Taleban regime that is sponsoring him.

After the precise British involvement, I can confirm that last Wednesday the US government made a specific request that a number of UK military assets be used in the operation which has now begun, and that I gave the authority for these assets to be deployed.

They include the base at Diego Garcia, reconnaissance and other aircraft and missile-firing submarines.

The missile-firing submarines are in use tonight. The air assets will be available for use in the coming days.

The US are obviously providing the bulk of the force required and leading the operation.

But this is an international effort. As well as the UK, France, Germany, Australia and Canada have also committed themselves to take part in it.

On the diplomatic and political fronts, in the time I have been Prime Minister, I cannot recall a situation that has commanded so quickly such a powerful coalition of support - not just from those countries directly involved in military action but from many others in all parts of the world.

That coalition has strengthened not weakened in the 26 days since the atrocity occurred.

This is no small measure due to the statesmanship of President Bush.

The world understands that whilst of course there are dangers in acting as we are, the dangers of inaction are far, far greater - the threat of further such outrages, the threats to our economies, the threat to the stability of the world.

On the humanitarian front, we are assembling a coalition of support for refugees in and outside Afghanistan, which is as vital as the military coalition.

Even before September 11, four million Afghans were on the move. There are two million refugees in Pakistan and one and a half million in Iran.

We have to ask for humanitarian reasons to alleviate the appalling suffering of the Afghan people and to deliver stability so that people from that region stay in that region.

We have already contributed £36 million to the humanitarian effort and stand ready to do more.

So we are taking action therefore on three fronts - military, diplomatic and humanitarian.

I also want to say very directly to the British people why this matters so much to Britain.

First, let us not forget that the attacks of 11 September represented the worst terrorist outrage against British citizens in our history.

The murder of British citizens, whether it happened overseas or not, is an attack upon Britain. But even if no British citizen had died, we would be right to act.

This atrocity was an attack on us all, on people of all faiths and people of none.

We know the al-Qaeda network threatens Europe, including Britain, and indeed any nation throughout the world that does not share their fanatical views.

So we have a direct interest in acting in our self-defence to protect British lives. It was an attack on lives and livelihoods.

The airlines, tourism and other industries have been affected, and economic confidence has suffered with all that means to British jobs and business.

Our prosperity and standard of living require us to deal with the terrorist threat. We act also because the al-Qaeda network and the Taleban regime are funded in large parts on the drugs trade - 90% of all heroin sold in Britain originates from Afghanistan. Stopping that trade is again directly in our interests.

I wish to say finally, as I have said many times before, that this is not a war with Islam.

It angers me, as it angers the vast majority of Muslims, to hear Bin Laden and his associates described as Islamic terrorists.

They are terrorists pure and simple. Islam is a peaceful and tolerant religion, and the acts of these people are contrary to the teachings of the Koran.

These are difficult and testing times for us all. People are bound to be concerned about what the terrorists may seek to do in response.

I should say there is at present no specific credible threat to the United Kingdom that we know of and that we have in place tried and tested contingency plans which are the best possible response to any further attempts at terror.

This is a moment of utmost gravity for the world. None of the leaders involved in this action want war.

None of our nations want it. We are peaceful people.

But we know that sometimes to safeguard peace, we have to fight.

Britain has learnt that lesson many times in our history. We only do it if the cause is just. This cause is just.

Why are we targeting the American Automobile Association?
Never mind, I'm going to find a cave to hide in....

On my orders, the United States military has begun strikes against al-Qaeda terrorist training camps and military installations of the Taleban regime in Afghanistan.

These carefully targeted actions are designed to disrupt the use of Afghanistan as a terrorist base of operations and to attack the military capability of the Taleban regime.

We are joined in this operation by our staunch friend, Great Britain.

Other close friends, including Canada, Australia, Germany and France, have pledged forces as the operation unfolds.

More than 40 countries in the Middle East, Africa, Europe and across Asia have granted air transit or landing rights. Many more have shared intelligence.

We are supported by the collective will of the world.

More than two weeks ago, I gave Taleban leaders a series of clear and specific demands: Close terrorist training camps, hand over leaders of the al-Qaeda network, and return all foreign nationals, including American citizens unjustly detained in our country.

None of these demands were met. And now, the Taleban will pay a price.

By destroying camps and disrupting communications, we will make it more difficult for the terror network to train new recruits and co-ordinate their evil plans.

Initially the terrorists may burrow deeper into caves and other entrenched hiding places.

Our military action is also designed to clear the way for sustained, comprehensive and relentless operations to drive them out and bring them to justice.

At the same time, the oppressed people of Afghanistan will know the generosity of America and our allies.

As we strike military targets, we will also drop food, medicine and supplies to the starving and suffering men and women and children of Afghanistan.

The United States of America is a friend to the Afghan people, and we are the friends of almost a billion worldwide who practise the Islamic faith.

The United States of America is an enemy of those who aid terrorists and of the barbaric criminals who profane a great religion by committing murder in its name.

This military action is a part of our campaign against terrorism, another front in a war that has already been joined through diplomacy, intelligence, the freezing of financial assets and the arrests of known terrorists by law enforcement agents in 38 countries.

Given the nature and reach of our enemies, we will win this conflict by the patient accumulation of successes, by meeting a series of challenges with determination and will and purpose.

Today we focus on Afghanistan, but the battle is broader.

Every nation has a choice to make. In this conflict, there is no neutral ground.

If any government sponsors the outlaws and killers of innocents, they have become outlaws and murderers themselves. And they will take that lonely path at their own peril.

I'm speaking to you today from the Treaty Room of the White House, a place where American presidents have worked for peace.

We're a peaceful nation. Yet, as we have learned, so suddenly and so tragically, there can be no peace in a world of sudden terror.

In the face of today's new threat, the only way to pursue peace is to pursue those who threaten it.

We did not ask for this mission, but we will fulfil it.

The name of today's military operation is Enduring Freedom. We defend not only our precious freedoms, but also the freedom of people everywhere to live and raise their children free from fear.

I know many Americans feel fear today. And our government is taking strong precautions.

All law enforcement and intelligence agencies are working aggressively around America, around the world and around the clock.

At my request, many governors have activated the National Guard to strengthen airport security. We have called up reserves to reinforce our military capability and strengthen the protection of our homeland.

In the months ahead, our patience will be one of our strengths - patience with the long waits that will result from tighter security, patience and understanding that it will take time to achieve our goals, patience in all the sacrifices that may come.

Today, those sacrifices are being made by members of our armed forces who now defend us so far from home, and by their proud and worried families.

A commander-in-chief sends America's sons and daughters into battle in a foreign land only after the greatest care and a lot of prayer.

We ask a lot of those who wear our uniform.

We ask them to leave their loved ones, to travel great distances, to risk injury, even to be prepared to make the ultimate sacrifice of their lives.

They are dedicated. They are honourable. They represent the best of our country, and we are grateful.

To all the men and women in our military, every sailor, every soldier, every airman, every Coast Guardsman, every Marine, I say this: Your mission is defined. The objectives are clear. Your goal is just. You have my full confidence, and you will have every tool you need to carry out your duty.

I recently received a touching letter that says a lot about the state of America in these difficult times - a letter from a fourth-grade girl with a father in the military.

"As much as I don't want my dad to fight," she wrote, "I'm willing to give him to you."

This is a precious gift. The greatest she could give. This young girl knows what America is all about.

Since 11 September, an entire generation of young Americans has gained new understanding of the value of freedom and its cost and duty and its sacrifice.

The battle is now joined on many fronts. We will not waver, we will not tire, we will not falter, and we will not fail.

Peace and freedom will prevail.

Thank you. May God continue to bless America.

Bin Ladens video statement can be seen here http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1585000/video/_1585289_statement19_binladen_clip_vi.ram

I saw bush, and just read the British PM's statement. My feelings are mixed, as the should be in such a time. I think both statements were very well put, and that it appears we are doing the best job we can to keep this from becomming a religious war.
time will tell.
AO

http://images.animfactory.com/animations/transportation/air_planes/warplane_squadron_md_wht.gif
http://images.animfactory.com/animations/animals/camels/jerry_camel_walking_md_wht.gif

John- Thanks for posting those :) I did my best to type out what Bush said (at least some of the bits :p), but it was hard to pay attention, watch, and type at the same time hehe!
What I mean about the shyt and the fan is that the ante has been upped, and now we are on the verge of a real and possible messy war. I realize that this has been going on, in one form or another, for many years now, but never has it been at this level. Always our military actions have been covert, and the current military actions are most certainly overt :). I'm just worried that things may get out of hand, and some people may start taking actions which will do more harm than good. Violence begets violence, and while it rarely solves anything (in fact, I can't think of anything it has ever truely solved), I do believe that in this situation it is verifiably necessary to protect our freedom, and is an appropriate response to the senseless deaths of thousands of innocent civilians. This has now gone beyond the scope of a madman moving from hiding hole to hiding hole, launching small and far away attacks. It has moved onto our own soil, and now threatens our very way of life, and even our lives themselves. Osama Bin Laden is not only using propaganda now, to gain the support of others, but has in the past used such words, untrue as they may be. Since the unwarranted and horrible attacks on the World Trade Center, Osama Bin Laden has made it clear that we are his enemy, and I don't think that he will leave well enough alone. We cannot stand by and let the deaths of 5000 or more innocent people go unanswered. Unfortunately, I believe that the attack was only the beginning of Osama Bin Laden's campaign against America and all that we stand for. No one, not even Bin Laden himself can believe that we would not retaliate after what he has done. He wanted us to retaliate, he wants this to escalate. He believes that God is on his side, and that we must be vanquished. In fact, he thanks God for the attacks on September 11th. While I realize that he is a radical faction of the Islamic community, it worries me that so many people can believe that we are warring against a religion, because that is not so. The Islamic religion is based upon peace, is it not? This has become more than a reaction to the terrorist attacks on the 11th, and this is what Osama Bin Laden undoubtably wanted. This conflict might very well grow to encompass a good deal of the world, and many people could be affected by this. This has grown to nearly become the legendary battle between Good and Evil, or so Bin Laden would like us to believe. We have been painted as the Evil usurpers, who wish to expand our territory to include Afghanistan and other Islamic nations. We have been described as hateful of the Islamic religion and way of life, and of wanting to destroy the religion and replace it with our own, or not at all. What worries me is that this might very well escalate beyond what it already is. Speculation lends itself to fear, unfortunately. We are not the enemy, nor is the Islamic religion or the Muslim people. The enemy is terrorism and senseless violence. That is the true evil.

I hope I get proved wrong about all this.

Did I make any sense? I think I kinda rambled incoherently...

I will follow this up with a poem I feel is noteworthy, given the current situation.

Perhaps It Is Time

Does anyone think it's easy
To be a creature of this world?
To ask for reasons
When all reasons serve only
To make the darkness darker,
And to break the heart?
--Not only of man,
But of all breathing things?
Perhaps, friends, it is time
To take a stand
Against all this senseless hurt.

--Kenneth Patchen

no war!

Originally posted by Youngun
no war!

Too late!

Very good post Fido.

I still think most people have not really grasped the enormaty of the situation. This is not going to be over in a week, a month or even a year. Afghanistan is just the start and this WILL escalate to other areas of the world including places like Somalia.

Also i dont think people realise that the attacks against the USA didnt start on the 11th. They started years ago with the bombings in Somalia.

You should listen to what OBL says himself. This is not a madman, this is a thinking man who believes in his cause and has huge support for his ideals.

A lot of what he says is logical to people who don't have all the facts or have the oportunity to debate openly. You have to remember a large proportion of the world is very different to you and I. Religion is the most important thing in their lives, bar none. What OBL is doing is putting this message out to these people, not to your or I. You have to try thinking about all this from a less educated and a more religiously programmed basis. It's a powerful message he has.

What he is saying has it's basis in the way Israel was created and the way he see's the west as violating holy land in the Arab states.

The most dificult thing that the US and it's alies now have is to keep the coalition of states together and control the factions within countries like Pakistan from breaking out into civil war. That is a real posibility and the consequencies are huge should that happen.

There are no quick fixes to this, try thinking in a way that people like OBL think, you'll understand and apreciate more whats coming next. They are not stupid people, they just have a completely different agenda and they see us as legitimate targets. I dont like the way bush keeps going on about getting these people out of the caves. We aren't dealing with cave men here (which is the image people will have), we are dealing with people who can plan actions for years and carry them out with absolute precision.

below is what OBL said in his TV address. These are not the rants of a madman but carefully chosen words.

Praise be to God and we beseech Him for help and forgiveness.

We seek refuge with the Lord of our bad and evildoing. He whom God guides is rightly guided but he whom God leaves to stray, for him wilt thou find no protector to lead him to the right way.

I witness that there is no God but God and Mohammed is His slave and Prophet.

God Almighty hit the United States at its most vulnerable spot. He destroyed its greatest buildings.

Praise be to God.

Here is the United States. It was filled with terror from its north to its south and from its east to its west.

Praise be to God.

What the United States tastes today is a very small thing compared to what we have tasted for tens of years.

Our nation has been tasting this humiliation and contempt for more than 80 years.

Its sons are being killed, its blood is being shed, its holy places are being attacked, and it is not being ruled according to what God has decreed.

Despite this, nobody cares.

When Almighty God rendered successful a convoy of Muslims, the vanguards of Islam, He allowed them to destroy the United States.

I ask God Almighty to elevate their status and grant them Paradise. He is the one who is capable to do so.

When these defended their oppressed sons, brothers, and sisters in Palestine and in many Islamic countries, the world at large shouted. The infidels shouted, followed by the hypocrites.

One million Iraqi children have thus far died in Iraq although they did not do anything wrong.

Despite this, we heard no denunciation by anyone in the world or a fatwa by the rulers' ulema [body of Muslim scholars].

Israeli tanks and tracked vehicles also enter to wreak havoc in Palestine, in Jenin, Ramallah, Rafah, Beit Jala, and other Islamic areas and we hear no voices raised or moves made.

But if the sword falls on the United States after 80 years, hypocrisy raises its head lamenting the deaths of these killers who tampered with the blood, honour, and holy places of the Muslims.

The least that one can describe these people is that they are morally depraved.

They champion falsehood, support the butcher against the victim, the oppressor against the innocent child.

May God mete them the punishment they deserve.

I say that the matter is clear and explicit.

In the aftermath of this event and now that senior US officials have spoken, beginning with Bush, the head of the world's infidels, and whoever supports him, every Muslim should rush to defend his religion.

They came out in arrogance with their men and horses and instigated even those countries that belong to Islam against us.

They came out to fight this group of people who declared their faith in God and refused to abandon their religion.

They came out to fight Islam in the name of terrorism.

Hundreds of thousands of people, young and old, were killed in the farthest point on earth in Japan.

[For them] this is not a crime, but rather a debatable issue.

They bombed Iraq and considered that a debatable issue.

But when a dozen people of them were killed in Nairobi and Dar es Salaam, Afghanistan and Iraq were bombed and all hypocrite ones stood behind the head of the world's infidelity - behind the Hubal [an idol worshipped by pagans before the advent of Islam] of the age - namely, America and its supporters.

These incidents divided the entire world into two regions - one of faith where there is no hypocrisy and another of infidelity, from which we hope God will protect us.

The winds of faith and change have blown to remove falsehood from the [Arabian] peninsula of Prophet Mohammed, may God's prayers be upon him.

As for the United States, I tell it and its people these few words: I swear by Almighty God who raised the heavens without pillars that neither the United States nor he who lives in the United States will enjoy security before we can see it as a reality in Palestine and before all the infidel armies leave the land of Mohammed, may God's peace and blessing be upon him.

God is great and glory to Islam.

May God's peace, mercy, and blessings be upon you.

Yeah, that's scarey John :( You're right that this guy (Bin Laden), isn't technically a madman, since his words are very intelligent and well planned, and I don't really believe he is insane. Although he is a madman in the sense of what his actions are, and I think that makes him logically a madman.

The really powerfull thing about what he says is that it is based to large extent on facts. Taking the perspective of any Islamic person attacked is all Islam attacked the west has actually harmed Islamic people.

The fact that it was as a result of intervening in a war, say in desert storm doesnt matter to these people.

His statement that 1 million children have died in Iraq and yet no one cares is absolutely true! 1 million children have died in iraq since the gulf war because Sadam has refused to take humanitarian aid whilst we blockade him. He doesnt care about the children of his nation. That fact wont get put accross by OBL and his type though, all that will be put to them is that children have died due to our blockades. The guy is not stupid, like i say.

Propaganda and half-truths. Osama Bin Laden will twist the facts, and carefully craft his words so that we look like the 'bad guys'.

... either way, OBL would keep going til he gets his war. Even if he is captured or killed, he'll be a hero to likely thousands, and perhaps even millions of people. I am also pretty sure that the underlying networks are going to be strong (for the near future) with or without him. Shut down their bank accounts? They will resort to "old" methods of money transfer. No nations will openly sell or give them goods? They'll smuggle them. Think about the 15, 7, 4 year old already being told their obligation to this extremism. I know that this is not an easy situation, and hope that we make the right moves more times than not so as to hold true to what our society values. But imagining that this will cure itself in a matter of weeks or months is to be very short sighted about the gravity of the situation. I think some folks are getting this, and some aren't...
-T

You're giving him way to much credit. He is a murderer and may meet the ultimate justice very soon.

Did you know that-

"The words “thug,” “zealot” and “assassin” all come from ancient terror cults—Hindu, Jewish and Muslim, respectively—that believed they were doing the work of God."

I tend to think 26 days of diplomacy resulted in convincing the Brit's to help us sho0t a camel in the butt with a cruise missle.


Osama's TV address was a signal to his terror network to begin a campaign to turn this into a real war with Islam. I expect terror attacks in the US, our allies, and efforts to topple the Egyptian, Saudi, Jordanian, Omani, and UAE governments. No doubt they are hoping Muslim's will actually rise up in a Jihad.


I'm glad everyone has such faith in the US government but I am concerned that the team at the helm is the same team that mishandled the Iraq situation a decade ago. I'm old enough to have faced the draft in the Vietnam War and I see a government that has, as then, underestimated the enemy. I just hope I don't have to sacrifice my son at the altar of a government that wants to repeat the mistakes of 40 years ago. Stand by for a wider war and the opportunity to repeat the mistakes of our grandfathers.

:(

I'm guessing that before tomorrow is out we'll have been hit with more terrorist attacks. IMHO, bombs (homemade, car, or otherwise, but nothing hugely massive), or small arms fire (a la driveby/lone crazed gunman, etc, nothing larger than an assault rifle) is the most likely :(, although again against civilians and civilian targets, judging from the current state of affairs. Getting a plane to do another kamikaze will be very difficult. At any rate, no more than 48 hours will go by without us being attacked again. Everyone remember to be careful tomorrow. No place is truely safe. I'm not saying to look over your shoulder every 5 minutes, but just because you're in a church doesn't mean a molotov cocktail can't be thrown through a window.

Again, I hope I'm wrong. If you pray, feel free to do so :-\

AZ-GT,

The difference is, this time there is a very unforgiving margin of error. That is why we have to get this right. Repeating mistakes is not an option.

time to sleep,
-T

This war is not anything at all like Vietnam, I'm not sure why people bring that up. First of all, the enemy is not being backed by an opposing superpower in this case. We have a large friendly group of experienced rebels (Northern Alliance) that have fought in the area for a long time. The people themselves are being oppressed by the government we seek to take out (unlike Vietnam where the communists were a popularly elected government). Our goal is not to conquer, just to eliminate the Taliban and restore a regime that will be friendly to our interests. We are being supported by a wide range of allies, and most importantly the American people are overwhelmingly behind this war (even more so than the gulf war, and again unlike Vietnam). Despite people's fears, I expect we will be quite effective at the propaganda war as we were in the Gulf War (1/3 of the Iraqi army surrendered or fled outright). A good portion of the soldiers in the Taliban regime are in it either against their will (i.e. threats against their families or themselves), or because that is the only alternative to starvation. Finally, there is absolutely no chance of the draft in this war. Yes, a large number of reservists will be called up, but we simply don't need that many people for this war.

As far as the rest of the Arab countries, I believe they would have no desire to join this war if they could avoid it. The Taliban were in a no-win situation (if the leaders turned over bin Laden, they would have lost all respect, and probably would be assasinated). That's one reason why I believe they refused to negotiate.

--Jason

Attacks with an aircraft are just as simple as they were before. there are ceramic knives available hard plastic knives and spikes are easy to get past security. people that have been waiting for thier call for who knows how many years . And what do the major networks do they run obl plea on T.V. These feal good security tactics at airports do what to help(besides help boost the economy).:confused: :( :confused:

War Update:

The Talibans Airforce (37 odds-n-ends aircraft) and Tank Armada (52 old Russian tanks) no longer exist.

End War Update

:D

Absolutely outstanding! I support kicking up a lil dust in their back yard 100% :devil:

The other possibility for a terrorist attack also seems likely...An attempt on the President's or other high ranking official's life :(

And does anyone else think it's bull that upwards of 40 Afghan civilians died in our attack? I think we're more precise than that, or maybe the Taliban is taking civilians and tying them up so that they can't leave target areas? :mad:

I tend to think 26 days of diplomacy resulted in convincing the Brit's to help us sho0t a camel in the butt with a cruise missle.

Oh my, how little you understand the British involvement in this.............

Have you had your ears shut and your eyes closed for the past 4 weeks? No one has done more to build the alliance and support the USA than Blair. He was the only foreign head of state from the world to be present at the state of the nation address in congress.

Blair has been keen as hell from day one to be a part of the initial attacks, there was no convincing required. He is also the only head of state to visit Pakistan, India, Russia etc. etc. etc. in person to make sure that when action did begin everyone would understand why and be on side.

just remember guys. we're only told about 15% of what happens, there's a lot of stuff going on behind the scenes

speed safely

Brian :devil:

I'm not usually in favor of any type of war. I do think BrownKiller made some good points, though.

If we would have acted quickly and rashly it definitely would have been a mistake. After getting the support of so many other nations, it eliminates the perceived "wrongness" of colateral damage and spreads that "wrongness" across several nations.

It was crucial to wait and then attack only after demands weren't met even though we had suffered the loss of 5000 civilians. From here on out, the propaganda war is crucial and publicizing the humanitarian effort is important. It's ironic that we are dropping bombs and food and medicine, all at the same time!

I think some sort of attack is justified because they demonstrated the willingness/eagerness to come on to our soil and kill thousands of civilians. If we didn't attack, we were inviting another attack. They've seen how easy it is and how much attention it gets. It's a lose-lose situation. They upped the ante with the WTC deal. The scary thing is, we played right in to the hand of Osama Bin Laden. This is exactly what he wanted us to do. I just hope his warped message doesn't get to too many other desperate people looking for a cause and direction.

We will have to be more aware of terrorism from this day on. It will be many years, if ever, that we will feel the security we felt before these attacks. The average americans awareness of what is happening in the outside world rose significantly over the last month. That's a good thing.

ya know the only good part about this as i see it is that were finally using those billon dollar stealth bombers that look so cool.

The Taliban will claim that anyone that dies in our strikes is a civilian, even if they were military personnel. It's just propaganda. I'm sure that some innocents will be killed and that saddens me, but the government is trying to avoid it as much as possible.

I don't think any more successful kamikaze attacks using aircraft will occur. Given what we know now, every single able bodied passenger will rise up and fight against the terrorists rather than let them carry out their plans. There are already air marshals on many planes, and by the end of the month, cockpit doors will be universally reinforced so no chance of getting into the cockpit. In the worst case scenario, the government will shoot down the plane. Yes, some people may die subduing the terrorists, but don't expect any plane to reach its target.

I think it is more likely that we will see car or package bombs, or perhaps one of the easier to obtain biological agents (such as anthrax). Smallpox or other deadly viruses which would be a lot scarier are harder to obtain and handle. I don't think bin Laden has the resources to obtain a nuke. The other possibility is a shooting spree: some assault weapons and full body armor and you could probably take out a lot people in a crowded area by yourself before someone shows up to stop you. Still, you are more likely to die in a car wreck than from terrorism.

I don't think they would be able to kill the President. Surely the President has exceedingly tight security at this time, and in order to kill him you'd need inside connections and to know his schedule. I'm sure anything is possible, just unlikely.

--Jason

Wow, my first sticky :D

Official report on confirmed Anthrax cases in Florida (2 people, 1 died). So far nothing revealing has been said. In fact, this just left me with more questions, unfortunately :(

Anthrax Information:

The inhaled form of anthrax is rare and extremely deadly. Studies of previous cases indicate that a dose of 2,500 to 55,000 anthrax spores is lethal to about half of the people who inhale them

The first stage of anthrax infection, lasting from hours to a few days, involves flu-like symptoms, including fever, coughing, weakness and chest pains.

The second stage usually ends in death within days. Lung damage deprives the body of oxygen. The victim then goes into shock. Brain infection may also occur.

Antibiotics only prove helpful at the earliest stages of the disease because they fight bacteria, not the toxins the bacteria produce in abundance.

Anthrax can be contracted from farm animals or soil, though the bacterium is not normally found among wildlife or livestock in the state (Florida).

The anthrax bacterium normally has an incubation period of up to seven days, but could take up to 60 days to develop.

http://a799.ms.akamai.net/3/799/388/2314d917e21dcf/www.msnbc.com/news/1202719.gif Anthrax diagram.

This just in, passenger on an American Airlines flight 1238 LAX to O'Hare (Boeing 767, same type of plane to crash into WTC/Pentagon) plane attempted to get into cockpit. Passengers subdued man, while plane landed at O'Hare airport, and F-16 fighters were scrambled. Plane currently safely landed at O'Hare. So far, this is not terrorist related, and just a 'crazed' man.


Combat Air Patrols flying regularly now in Operation 'Noble Eagle' (I think I got the name right :p), with AWACS (Airborn Warning and Control System) up in the air 24/7 working in conjunction with the CAPs.

Actually - when the terrorist conunter attack comes it is unlikely to be against high profile or military targets.

Why ? They are "Hard" targets - much easier to walk into a busy shopping plaza or airport with 3 or4 Kg`s of semtex and an AK47.

They have already said civilians are just as much a target as the military, and a hell of a lot easier to get access to.

They want massive casualties as fast as possible.

"Terror"ism - remember ?

If they have chemical / bio / nuke - they will use it.

Well done folks- by large scale military action we just grew a whole new generation wanting to strap on some explosives and go shopping in the US of A.

Anyone who is throwing the gung-ho line of thinking better rethink - I grew up with it and I know how this song plays out.

This just in-

Mentally challanged boy was flying with parents and wanted to see cockpit, broke away from parents and knocked on the door, and pilots either pressed the 'Emergency Hijack Alarm Button', or radioed in that there was a problem. Two F-16 fighter jets were scrambled and one flew alongside each wing as they escorted the plane to O'Hare. No arrests have been made.


Imagine being on the plane and suddenly, ZOOOOMMM!! Yer surrounded by F-16s :)..Now that's the ultimate acceleration..mm...F-16..(or, mm....space shuttle...)

I'm curious why this was given sticky status, and why it's not in Off Topic.

Originally posted by mr_disco
I'm curious why this was given sticky status, and why it's not in Off Topic.

Because it is for some, an important source of information. Important enough to transcend the OT forum. I'm curious why you care?

Ed:rolleyes:

The WTC terrorist attacks was given sticky status, as well as being in the general forum.


The Pentagon announced that we now have obtained Air Superiority over Afghanistan. Bombings can now commence at virtually any time of day the military pleases, and the only concern is now shoulder-fired stinger missles. Unfortunately, 2 civilians were accidentally killed in a missle attack. They worked for a mine-removal company and while they were sleeping their building got hit.

More threats from Bin Laden and Taliban. Although Taliban soldiers are defecting at an amusing rate (few hundred today, bunch more yesterday, etc).

an interesting article on Canada's possible contribution and military in general...

http://www.cbc.ca/news/indepth/us_strikingback/backgrounders/canada_atwar.html

I'm new here and have a few ?'s for another thread but just wanted to ad some input.

As stated before, This very well could cause more terrorism for some time but if you remember correctly, It was already going on!
Not just here but everywhere.
What the US is doing is good. We can not continue to live in a world were these acts are over looked.
We are all stuck here on this planet and need to have some humanity. By humanity I don't mean overlooking this type of thing.
I mean being able to live next to someone without killing them because the think dif. than we do.

That said....
My brother was in the fleet of subs that launched the first attacks.
I can think of no other person I would want standing up for my right to live in peace. I wish that this wasn't needed but it is.
I wish that I didn't have to fear for the well being of my own blood. However I can say that I am proud to know that he is there and that a man of his stature is on our team.

God bless the USA.
SW

Right on :)

Sfiveten

When your brother comes home, you guys both need to swing by my house during any of the three races at Indy. I get good tickets for free. In the meantime, you make sure he knows how much everyone appreciates his efforts right now.

Only ONE person got anthrax
Two others were found to have spores in their system. One of them only had one spore found in his nose. Very different from getting anthrax. Keep in mind, this is a tabloid newspaper, there's pleanty of wackos that would want to send them some anthrax. On the other hand, Mohomad Attah had a subscription to one of their papers. The Globe, I think. They published a story a couple months ago that explained Bin Laden's hate for America was due to an American woman he once took home that laughed at his unusually small penis. That'll piss a guy off something fierce.

My idea on how to topple the Taliban
OK, every other person I see on my TV has their analysis, here's mine. Napalm (sp?). Lots of it. See how long they can survive in a cave with no oxygen because their countryside is on fire. Yeah, I know, it kinda has a negative connotation. So here's my second idea...

VX gas. We've got 250,000 gallons here in Indiana that is being gaurded like mad right now. I don't want it in my backyard, lets dispose of it in theirs. You know damn well they'd use it on us if they had the chance. How hard would it be to push a few 55 gallon drums of this crap out of a B-2 onto the top of a mountain. If I remember correctly, it will find the lowest point. Basically, it should cascade over the mountain (and caves) like gravy. By the time it reaches the Valley, the winds should have dilluted it enough that it won't hurt many civilians. I'm sure someone could figure out how much to use. And if that doesn't work...

MORE NAPALM!!! Until we use so G-damn much we melt dirt. Hey, these bastards have declaired war on all Americans. That means they have declaired war on ME. That means there's some SOB out there who really wants to kill ME! This is the first time I've known anyone truely wants me dead, and will do it. I don't take that kind of threat lightly. I've taken this very personally, if you can't tell. I think every American should.

Off soapbox...for now.

Hey, these bastards have declaired war on all Americans. That means they have declaired war on ME.
Exactly! :mad:

Bill
NSG Racing

Napalm is not going to be effective in the mountains where there is less oxygen and less vegetation to burn. Daisy cutters are going to have to be dropped. A lot of them. Who knows how much they cost though.

So far, money has been no object.

If Clinton had dropped daisy cutters instead of cluster bombs on Bin Laden's camps after the embassy bombings, this might not be necessary. Daisy cutters have a one mile radius and heat the air up to 10,000 degrees, sucking up oxygen, imploding reinforced tunnels--no one in the camp would've lived. I have the feeling daisy cutters are not in plentiful supply however.

Originally posted by Fido
Taliban officials say:

"We are ready for Jihad"
"Missles have caused no damage; they have hit the desert"

I highly doubt the missles and bombs caused no damage. Although I don't doubt they are ready for 'Jihad'.

Damn, where's Moses when you need him. I'm sure that Ala god thinks Bin Laden is an idiot.

Jihhhhhhad...anyone...anyone...Jihad..anyone...

(That is to say, I'm not seeing a big response)

Daisy cutters? Never heard of 'em. One mile radius with 10,000 degrees? Sounds unreal. I did hear a former Russian soldier talking about a type of munitian they would use back in the day to suck the oxygen out of the caves. I think he just called it something like an oxygen depleting device. Same thing? Appearently, it didn't work for the Russians.

By the way, George W. is holding his first White House press conference. Main points for me have been him restating we need an even more hightend alert for the next few days, and the statement that he shook Dick Chaney's hand today, and he looked good. Oh, he just said he wants he and Putin to get out of the ABM treaty, but into something new. That's pretty big.

He's now calling on the children of America to earn or give $1 to provide food and medical help to Afghan children. Send it right to 1600 Pennsylvania AV. What'd ya think of them apples, Bin Laden? Jihad on that, bitch!

He's brainwashing the Afghan people... Jihad you... Jihaddin A...

Jiihaaaad, he's gonna get Jihaded up.

And so I guess their membership to 24-Hour Terrorness is useless. Er, the Taliban group rate.

NBC Employee in NY contracts Anthrax.

People warned to NOT TOUCH suspicious packages.

From http://www.hrw.org/press/2000/02/chech0215b.htm

How FAEs Work

A typical fuel air explosive device consists of a container of fuel and two separate explosive charges. After the munition is dropped or fired, the first explosive charge bursts open the container at a predetermined height and disperses the fuel in a cloud that mixes with atmospheric oxygen (the size of the cloud varies with the size of the munition). The cloud of fuel flows around objects and into structures. The second charge then detonates the cloud, creating a massive blast wave. (For a demonstration of a FAE explosion, see the U.S. Naval Air Warfare Center Weapons Division, China Lake, California, page at "http://www.nawcwpns.navy.mil/clmf/faeseq.html".) The blast wave destroys unreinforced buildings and equipment and kills and injures personnel. The antipersonnel effect of the blast wave is more severe in foxholes, on personnel with body armor, and in enclosed spaces such as caves, buildings, and bunkers.

Fuel-air explosives were first developed, and used in Vietnam, by the United States. Soviet scientists, however, quickly developed their own FAE weapons, which were reportedly used against China in a 1969 border conflict and in Afghanistan. Since then research and development has continued and currently Russian forces field a wide array of third-generation FAE warheads.

In addition to classic FAE munitions, Soviet scientists have also developed other "enhanced-blast" munitions, particularly reactive-surround and slurry-explosive blast warheads. Both types of warheads work on the same principle by which the explosive is dispersed and mixed with atmospheric oxygen before the detonation process is completed. The destruction, death, and injury are caused by the blast wave. Reactive-surround warheads are thin-walled containers filled with combustible aluminum and nitrocellulose. Slurry-explosive warheads are a mixture of a high explosive or other explosive solid mixed with a combustible liquid.

Sounds like it would be useful against...say a terrorist camp.

Kurt

Isn't it funny how some people bitched about spending on the military and how we don't "need" the B2. This is why we pay taxes, period.

No offense here, but this thread is COMPLETELY off-topic and does not belong in the Subaru General forum. It should really be moved to the Off-Topic forum, since this one is described as pertaining to non-technical subaru questions.

Not trying to be a jerk here :D

At the same time, all I have to say is that this military action has got to be as fast as possible. The region's patience will only last so long, so I certainly hope we COMMIT to it. The last thing we need is to become complacent because we can fly essentially uncontested over their country whenever we want.

Oh, and I think they should send about 100 A10s out on "Demoralizing" missions ;) Something about that Avenger cannon takes the fight out of...just about every damn thing on the planet :D

They have those gunships flying now...The ones with the BIG HUGE machine guns in the sides that are made for taking out troops and armor...Saw some clips of it on TV...It's scarey..

Anthrax is popping up all over the place, and even a 7-month old baby has it now (skin form)...

29 people in Daschle's office have tested positive for Anthrax. George Pataki's NYC office is found to have Anthrax in one of the rooms.

Bad stuff, guys :(

do you guys know they're using unmanned aircraft to fire missles?

hehe.... R/C bombers.... wweeeeeeeeee:D

This has nothing to do with cars, even though it's important as hell. Please shift it over to the right thread!!!!!

I lost people at the WTC and have family "over there", please let me have an open window somewhere.

Thanks,