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Old 09-13-2012, 01:13 AM   #13
NSFW
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 140444
Join Date: Feb 2007
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Near Seattle, WA
Vehicle:
05 Stage Free LGT
ATP 3076, 6MT, AVO FMIC

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Quote:
Originally Posted by NSFW View Post
He just doesn't talk much about this on NASIOC because NASIOC isn't friendly to people who don't adhere to conventions.
For example:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ride5000 View Post
i think that's bull****.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ride5000 View Post
if you have the data to back something up, then you have the data to back something up. have the intestinal fortitude to share what you have and give back to the community, and take the potshots from the naysayers.
I hope that means you can show us a couple of your own dyno sheets, showing how much more power you were able to get with 11:1 vs 12:1. Because that would be awesome.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ride5000 View Post
if you have the data to back something up, then you have the data to back something up. have the intestinal fortitude to share what you have and give back to the community, and take the potshots from the naysayers.
I've seen a couple of his dyno sheets (via email) showing 12:1 on pump gas and totally reasonable power. And I've seen other tuners post dyno sheets showing 11.5:1 or leaner, here on NASIOC, and get raked over the coals for allegedly making time bombs out of their customers' cars. We all know exactly what would happen if he posted in PPB.

There are people in the world who crave the respect and admiration of the pseudonymous masses of NASIOC, and there are people who don't. Why would you expect someone in the latter group to even thing about posting something contentious here? It's not going to happen, and frankly it makes me wonder how much interesting, useful stuff doesn't get posted here because of the way NASIOC reacts to anything out of the ordinary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ride5000 View Post
the fact remains that the majority of "best results" on subaru FI boxers cluster around 11:1 on 93 octane for best torque. do a little searching on this forum and that fact would present itself, and tell you far more than a number out of a general tuning book. to dismiss the collective wisdom here, and to insinuate that no one else has the balls to try things out themselves and share their results, is disrespectful and myopic.
Nobody is questioning that fact. Least of all me. I heartily agree that a search of the dyno sheets posted here will show damn near all of them right around 11:1. And that's why I tuned my own car to 11:1.

But that fact only indicates that 11:1 is popular. And that only tells me that its probably pretty safe.

I do remember seeing one post where a tuner with one of the bigger companies (Cobb or Perrin, I think) said that there was no measurable loss of power until the mixture got down into the mid 10s, or something in that range. But that is the only thing I've seen here (or at RomRaider) where someone described trying multiple AFRs and studying the results.

Let me be clear about something - if I thought 12:1 had a very high probability of making more power with no more risk, I would have at least tried it by now. By my guess is that if there are gains, they're small. And i have no idea what the risks are. And I'm too chicken to experiment with my own motor, so I'm following the crowd on this one, and I'm OK with that.

I know that there are plenty of people who say it's horribly dangerous to run 12:1 at WOT with pump gas, but there are also plenty of people who think that PTFB makes your motor lean out because there's "too much air." Or, you need a tune to safely run a TBE on any Subaru other than the STI. And so on. You know as well as I do that there's a ton of misinformation in this echo chamber. I believe nothing I read here, until/unless I've seen it tested, or better yet tested it myself.

"Everybody does it" is not particularly persuasive, especially in an environment where people are routinely ridiculed for doing unusual things, and more especially when I know a guy who looks an awful lot like a counterexample to the conventional wisdom.

I know you're one of the few who thinks outside of the box around here (I'm running your MBC+BCS setup, for example), so your reaction to this question really caught me by surprise.
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