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Old 07-30-2006, 10:15 PM   #1
WagonMonster
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OMGHi2U Not too pleased with my Stage 2

Got my car dynoed at AMS in Carson, CA yesterday.

The dyno is a MAHA LPS-3000 which is supposed to be the official Dyno of Audi and Porsche.

It also estimates crank HP, based on deceleration drag.

My mods:
Invidia Catted DP
Prodrive Muffler
AccessPort, Stage 2 (91 octane, California map)

My numbers:
169 WHP
225 Estimated Crank HP

Now, I know there are a few factors coming into play here.
1. I was running the piss water we call California Premium.
2. The MAHA Dyno is a heartbreaker of a Dyno.

But still, LESS THAN STOCK?

Especially since a 2004 Wagon with Similar Mods did 188 WHP and a crap-ass, 1990 Camry did 270HP (estimated, granted, it had a Celica Turbo Motor in it )

But, I dunno, something seems fishy.
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Old 07-30-2006, 11:57 PM   #2
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Can you post the dyno sheet? Didn't they test a '06 stock WRX and came out with 167 WHP and 220 est engine hp?
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Old 07-31-2006, 12:13 AM   #3
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Numbers imo are meaningless, course I've never been on a dyno. Does your car feel quicker then it did b4 the tune?
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Old 07-31-2006, 01:52 AM   #4
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For Stg2 shouldn't there be a catless Uppipe?
Also what size piping on the Exhaust parts you installed?
What was the weather conditions while on the dyno?
Are you sure the dyno was in 4wd and not 2wd? (I've seen that mistake)
Which type of dyno, Mustang or Dynojet?
What gear did they test in?
Has the car been well maintained, such as new/clean fluids?
Do you have different size wheels, If so was that taken into consideration?

How about you give us more to work with
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Old 07-31-2006, 10:32 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bbasso
For Stg2 shouldn't there be a catless Uppipe?
Also what size piping on the Exhaust parts you installed?
What was the weather conditions while on the dyno?
Are you sure the dyno was in 4wd and not 2wd? (I've seen that mistake)
Which type of dyno, Mustang or Dynojet?
What gear did they test in?
Has the car been well maintained, such as new/clean fluids?
Do you have different size wheels, If so was that taken into consideration?

How about you give us more to work with
Did you even read my post?
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Old 07-31-2006, 02:57 AM   #6
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I also got dyno'd yesterday at AMS after WagonMonster. I posted this in the AMS thread... here's my plot to compare to his results above:



191.2 whp
240.1 estimated crank hp (corrected for ambient temperature, humidity, etc.)
401.4 Nm torque = ~296 lb/ft

Driveline loss looks like 20%, so if I take 20% off my torque numbers, I'm guessing my wheel torque is more like 236 lb/ft. I doubt that's accurate, so someone call me on it if I'm totally off.

I'm running on the following:

2006 WRX (2.5 block)
PDE catted downpipe
Stromung 2.5" intermediate pipe
STI Genome muffler
Cobb Stage 2 OTS map (standard non-CA 91 map, Citgo 91 fuel)

Everything else is stock, except for my Zero/Sports intake pipe, but I doubt that does a damn thing.

Subaru says stock hp is 230 for my 06... I got about 10 more at the crank w/ the Stage 2 map. Not much higher, but it's about what I was expecting, since I figure Subaru is highballing their number a bit. Torque, I was pretty happy with, though.

I'll be curious to check this thread later to get to the bottom of WagonMonster's results and to check out the plot.

-Mike
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Old 08-01-2006, 07:08 PM   #7
bl0wnb0xerbabiE
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ghibli99
I also got dyno'd yesterday at AMS after WagonMonster. I posted this in the AMS thread... here's my plot to compare to his results above:



191.2 whp
240.1 estimated crank hp (corrected for ambient temperature, humidity, etc.)
401.4 Nm torque = ~296 lb/ft

Driveline loss looks like 20%, so if I take 20% off my torque numbers, I'm guessing my wheel torque is more like 236 lb/ft. I doubt that's accurate, so someone call me on it if I'm totally off.

I'm running on the following:

2006 WRX (2.5 block)
PDE catted downpipe
Stromung 2.5" intermediate pipe
STI Genome muffler
Cobb Stage 2 OTS map (standard non-CA 91 map, Citgo 91 fuel)

Everything else is stock, except for my Zero/Sports intake pipe, but I doubt that does a damn thing.

Subaru says stock hp is 230 for my 06... I got about 10 more at the crank w/ the Stage 2 map. Not much higher, but it's about what I was expecting, since I figure Subaru is highballing their number a bit. Torque, I was pretty happy with, though.

I'll be curious to check this thread later to get to the bottom of WagonMonster's results and to check out the plot.

-Mike
Correct me If im wrong but I think your severely underestimating everything. First off, the 06 would be UNDERRATED from the factory, not overrated. I figure 10more whp then pre06's. Secondly, you shouldnt be getting only 10crank hp on stage 2, that's ridiculous. So your basically sayin u gained like 4 whp, and your satisfied with that??? That dyno is messed up. Stage 2 Ap puts down around sti numbers...
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Old 08-03-2006, 03:51 AM   #8
drees
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ghibli99
I also got dyno'd yesterday at AMS after WagonMonster. I posted this in the AMS thread... here's my plot to compare to his results above:
See that big dip in timing at 3.6k in your dyno chart? The ECU saw significant detonation there. Not good. At the very least, you should be running the CA-91 map, but I doubt that will totally fix it.

From what I've seen, Cobb seems to run the cars a bit too lean right when boost hits with their OTS maps for CA fuel. They seem to be able to get away with it in other states.

I had constant pinging problems with my Cobb Stg1 on full throttle which would only go away after multiple pulls to let the ECU learn. I gave up and went back to stock fearing for my engine's life. The AP is a good product, but the OTS maps suck for CA. Even the so-called CA91 maps are too much for a lot of cars here. I don't think I would have been able to hear the pinging with the Prodrive oval-tip I have on now, so if you have a non-stock muffler, you could be pinging and not hear it. Datalogs will readily show how happy your engine is.

Last edited by drees; 08-03-2006 at 03:57 AM.
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Old 08-03-2006, 04:05 AM   #9
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Drees, nice input!
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Old 08-03-2006, 04:07 AM   #10
drees
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AMSPower.com
Drees, nice input!
Thanks! I wish I could have made it to your dyno day and mini-meet last weekend, but the family keeps me busy on the weekends.

-Dave
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Old 08-03-2006, 11:57 AM   #11
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I see that dip in two '06 WRX and a STi here in Calgary.
The WRXs are running 91 (which supposed to be crap like California gas) with Cobb OTS stg2 maps
The STi is using 94 gas (with ethanol) with OTS Cobb stg map

For the STi, I logged (at least I think I did) the Advance Multiplier and did not see a change at the 'transition' area.



Quote:
Originally Posted by drees
See that big dip in timing at 3.6k in your dyno chart? The ECU saw significant detonation there. Not good. At the very least, you should be running the CA-91 map, but I doubt that will totally fix it.

From what I've seen, Cobb seems to run the cars a bit too lean right when boost hits with their OTS maps for CA fuel. They seem to be able to get away with it in other states.

I had constant pinging problems with my Cobb Stg1 on full throttle which would only go away after multiple pulls to let the ECU learn. I gave up and went back to stock fearing for my engine's life. The AP is a good product, but the OTS maps suck for CA. Even the so-called CA91 maps are too much for a lot of cars here. I don't think I would have been able to hear the pinging with the Prodrive oval-tip I have on now, so if you have a non-stock muffler, you could be pinging and not hear it. Datalogs will readily show how happy your engine is.
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Old 08-03-2006, 12:04 PM   #12
drees
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Airboy
For the STi, I logged (at least I think I did) the Advance Multiplier and did not see a change at the 'transition' area.
The AM usually stays fairly constant if the ECU hasn't been reset recently.

But KC (which AM limits) will drop if the ECU hears knock or heard knock at that RPM/load point before and it does in your bottom pic.

Now, you can't always be 100% sure that a small drop in KC means the ECU is pulling timing without seeing the KC maps, but in your case the KC drops 4 points (1 KC = 1* ignition timing) which definitely isn't normal. Especially when it drops off so sharply.

In your other chart you notice that even the stock WRX is pulling timing. Like AMS noted, even stock WRXs have a tendancy to ping on CA91 or equivalent gas.
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Old 08-03-2006, 06:37 PM   #13
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Find a friend with a stock wrx and drag him. If you win, blame it on the dyno. If he wins... well...
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Old 08-03-2006, 07:37 PM   #14
ghibli99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drees
See that big dip in timing at 3.6k in your dyno chart? The ECU saw significant detonation there. Not good. At the very least, you should be running the CA-91 map, but I doubt that will totally fix it.

From what I've seen, Cobb seems to run the cars a bit too lean right when boost hits with their OTS maps for CA fuel. They seem to be able to get away with it in other states.

I had constant pinging problems with my Cobb Stg1 on full throttle which would only go away after multiple pulls to let the ECU learn. I gave up and went back to stock fearing for my engine's life. The AP is a good product, but the OTS maps suck for CA. Even the so-called CA91 maps are too much for a lot of cars here. I don't think I would have been able to hear the pinging with the Prodrive oval-tip I have on now, so if you have a non-stock muffler, you could be pinging and not hear it. Datalogs will readily show how happy your engine is.
Thanks for the good info, and yes, I realized at the meet that I hadn't flashed the CA91 map yet. I'm running it now, and it might just be me, but I seem to have less pop and gurgle. I plan on getting the car tuned in the near future once the VF39 goes in, and then I'll hop back on the MAHA to see what's up.

-Mike
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Old 07-31-2006, 10:54 AM   #15
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But, to answer your questions...
No
2.5"
Warm, but the dyno accounts for that in it's estimated power
I'm not a retard, of course it was 4WD
MAHA
3rd
Yes
The rolling circumference is the same as stock.
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Old 07-31-2006, 10:57 AM   #16
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My Dyno sheet
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Old 07-31-2006, 11:29 AM   #17
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From what it looks like the problem lies in the gas as you know, the dyno which is a bitch, and if I remember stg2 is for catless? That could be part of the problem. I know after I reflashed with stg2 93 octance on my catless car it is much quicker so if the numbers dont say that, I still know and feel that its faster, although its become normal for me now, so I guess its time for a new turbo, you might want to consider the same.
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Old 07-31-2006, 11:48 AM   #18
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Stage 2 isn't for catless.

According to Cobb, you can run a catted DP and get the same numbers as Catless.
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Old 07-31-2006, 11:51 AM   #19
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From Cobb's website:
The Stage 2 was tuned on a car with a full turbo-back system. If you have pieced together a less than optimal combo of parts or those that were not designed to work together you may not get the full benefits of the Stage 2 AccessECU. Boost may not come on as quickly and the peak power may be down from those that have a well designed full turbo-back system. If you have replaced the first section (second cat or downpipe section) and nothing else, then the Stage 2 map is what we would recommend. Again the results will be far less than optimal, but it will control the boost better than the Stage 1. If you have replaced sections 2-4 (third cat, mid-pipe, and muffler section then you are still Stage 1. You managed to get all except the part that makes the most difference. Again, we want to reiterate that Stage 2 will only get the intended results with a well designed complete turbo-back.


Reading between the lines it says, to me atleast, catless for the most power.
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Old 07-31-2006, 11:53 AM   #20
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Once again, you're WRONG.

I have a full turbo-back system, just one with a high-flow cat.

You can read between the lines all you want, but, the fact of the matter is that a high-flow catted DP is perfectly acceptable for Stage 2, and a LOT nicer to the air.
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Old 07-31-2006, 11:55 AM   #21
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Ok then, atleast we agree that 91 octane is a big part of the problem....
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Old 07-31-2006, 11:56 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AshyLarry
Ok then, atleast we agree that 91 octane is a big part of the problem....
Not only 91, but California 91, it's terrible stuff.
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Old 07-31-2006, 11:55 AM   #23
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It was tuned on a 3 inch turbo back?
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Old 07-31-2006, 12:06 PM   #24
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Did you baseline the car? So you could see a difference before and after? That is another way of seeing imporovements.
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Old 07-31-2006, 12:34 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by salisburyv
Did you baseline the car? So you could see a difference before and after? That is another way of seeing imporovements.
I did not, I should have, but *shrug*
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