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Old 01-16-2002, 10:57 PM   #1
worstluk
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Default Engine/Turbo/HP Mods to Legacy?

I'm new to the board so I don't know if this has already been discussed or what, but I would appreciate some info on engine or speed modifications for my 99 legacy gt limited. I want to up the HP from 165 to around 200HP if possible.

I have little knowledge about turbo kits/chargers or engine mods and cars in general so any links, information or recommondations to reach ~200hp would help me out...

thanks
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Old 01-16-2002, 11:04 PM   #2
HIHO
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If you want 200hp you are going to have to add a turbo. Talk to GTBGUY, he is going to offer a kit with EVERYTHING needed for about $4000.
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Old 01-16-2002, 11:06 PM   #3
PHATsuby
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definitely need a turbo, do you want 200 to the wheels or to the flywheel, cause the 165 figure is just to the flywheel, either way, that kind of gain requires some forced induction
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Old 01-16-2002, 11:09 PM   #4
worstluk
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hrmm... thanks for the quick replies I appreciate it.

What other kinds of modifications can I apply to gain some more HP besides turbo? I have a friend that bought an $800 chip for his GTI that upped his HP by 45, is that applicable for legacys/subaras? Again, i have little knowledge of cars so If this is an ignorant question its not on purpose, heh.
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Old 01-16-2002, 11:38 PM   #5
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The only chip for our cars was made by JC Sports. They are now out of buisness and there chip sucked in my opinion (I returned it).
as for mods w/out a turbo if your talking 200 to the wheels a turbo makes the most since. If you just want 200 to the flywheel I would reccomend and intake, exhaust, UD or lightweight pully(s). and say a better clutch (if you have a MT). Cams wouldn't be bad either. Would help more then any 2 of the above combined. It all depends on your budget, if you are going to install in yourself (and if your mechaniclly inclined), and if you mean at the crank or at the wheels. Stock, you probably have 130-135HP at the wheels. So 7psi on a descent turbo kit will probably put you at 200 at the wheels. I'm running 8psi right now, and still have the stock filter/airbox, when I get that removed it will help a lot.
Mike
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Old 01-17-2002, 12:30 AM   #6
monovich
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There's a bit-o'-misinformation around here.

First of all. You CAN get at least 220 HP out of your engine and keep it NA, but it costs a ton of cash. It's been done more than once by guys on this board. Here's what you would need

1. Pulleys - $200
2. Intake - $200 ish
3. Exhaust - $300 - $700
4. Headers - $400 - $1200
5. Cams - $400 - $900
6. Heads - ?? $$$$!!!!!
7. Port n Polish - ?? $$$
8. Managment - $1000 ish
9. Possibly new injectors - ?? $$

Cobb Tuning could give you a real list and a real quote.

I plan on getting to about 200 with just muffler, pulleys, cams, intake, chip/ecu, and headers. I think it's possible and so do many other people.

Second, there are currently at least two chip makers for Subaru and the chips are said to add around 10hp and 10 torque. Only problem is that niether manufacturer can actually SUPPLY dyno numbers, so it's unverifiable. People who buy them are generally happy, though. Chips generally work better on turbocharged engines.

By the time you get all that power NA, you may as well have gone turbo with all the cash you spend, you'll get more power anyway.

I'm going the cautious NA route so that I can go turbo in the future if I chose. Turbo is much more risky because our engines weren't built for it. But it's reletivly safe it you do it right.

good luck.

-S

p.s. Now everyone who knows more than me can feel free to step in and correct me (hint hint, GTB GUY)
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Old 01-17-2002, 01:08 AM   #7
GTBGUY
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HIHO & monovich - thanks for the props guys

worstluk - ok everything was pretty much laid out for you in terms of the N/A route. Your friend with the GTi uses a 1.8T engine which basically is turbo. From my experience with that engine, it's really easy to get 350hp with upgrades just under $5000US. If you wanted that kind of power at that kind of price, the WRX w/ the 2.0L turbo engine is the way to go.

200hp @ the flywheel isn't that hard to accomplish. If you're looking for the ultimate N/A set-up this is what I'd suggest : (short of going full race)

1) Cobb Cams & Head Work
2) Unichip with Rev Module
3) Brullen/iON equal-length header back set-up
4) Full pulley set (lightweight crank, alternator, power steering)
5) Cold Air Intake
6) 20% larger fuel injectors

And yes, I will be coming out with the bolt-on turbo-kit for the Legacys very shortly (for both auto and 5spd). Basic kit will include necessary items to do 5-7psi boost on 91+ octane gas and should be good for 240-260hp @ the flywheel. For the full meal deal kit (which includes Unichip and boost module), it will break 325hp+ at 10psi boost on 91+ octane gas. Basic kit will run somewhere in the neighbourhood of $3600-$3900US, the full set-up will run close to $5000US (engine management included).
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Old 01-17-2002, 03:52 AM   #8
nate18t
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Hi guys, i'm his friend with the 1.8T

His car is A/T and I was wondering what the max torque and HP the transmission is reliable for and if it is low, are there any after market torque converters available that are tested and proven?

The stage I turbo kit sounds good, what other info do you have (model and make of the turbo, fitment, etc.) and does it require custom software to run at optimum levels?

I'm not familiar with the Legacy platform, what is the largest exhaust you can run? Is it possible to run a full 3" turbo-back with no rubbing or fitment issues?

The gas up here is great, (94 octane) and I run a 93 octane program full-time and it works perfectly.

Thanks in advance.
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Old 01-17-2002, 08:32 AM   #9
Patrick Olsen
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Quote:
Originally posted by Legacy GTR
Stock, you probably have 130-135HP at the wheels.
Not unless you shift to 2WD. My car dyno'd @ 106.6hp and ~115ft-lb on a load-bearing AWD dyno. An inertia type dyno might read a bit higher, but you're still looking at 115hp at the most. AWD systems create a lot of drivetrain losses.

To get a realistic 200hp from a N/A 2.5L you will at least need aftermarket cams ($800 from Cobb Tuning www.cobbtuning.com + installation) and probably some head work, too ($2000 ported heads from Cobb + installation).

There are those on this board who believe that an intake, exhaust, pulleys, and an S-AFC will get you to 200hp, but I've yet to see anyone show any dyno numbers to support that claim. The dyno data that I've seen would seem to show you're not gonna get there. On the same day that my stock car dyno'd @ 106.6hp, a 2.5RS with an intake, exhaust (still stock headers and cats), and S-AFC dyno'd @ 115hp and 122ft-lb. Pulleys are good for maybe 5hp at the absolute most, and a header will add around 10hp, so we're up to maybe (if we're being really optimistic) 190hp. I don't think you're going to get any farther with just bolt-ons.

Nate18t - The 4EAT is supposed to be pretty strong. Exactly how strong I can't tell you. Kevin Thomas (that's his user name in addition to his actual name ) could probably give you a good idea as he used to run a turbo'd/NOS'd Impreza with an automatic.

As for exhaust fitment, the only place I think you might have trouble fitting a 3" exhaust would be around the rear diff, and that would only be a tight spot if the car has an aftermarket rear diff protector on it.

Pat Olsen
'97 Legacy 2.5GT sedan
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Old 01-17-2002, 08:33 AM   #10
Legacy GTR
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I have a 3" cat-back section. Godspeed makes a 3" downpipe now also.
GTBGUY-care to release any more info about the 10psi turbo kit? I would be interested in upgrading my parts to it.
Thanks,
Mike
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Old 01-17-2002, 09:19 AM   #11
MY99 2.5GT
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Swap in a 3.3 litre flat 6 from an SVX (Between $2,000-$4,000). Instant 230hp and 228lb ft of torque Naturally Aspirated. Add a custom equal length header set (Made at your local Exhaust Shop that specializes in mandrell bending). Then add a Catco Hi Flow Cat and custom midpipe with a Brullen muffler section. Throw an intake on there and you should be running 250+ hp Naturally Aspirated.

Later on down the road you could buy a TEC-II (Engine Computer) and custom 7-9psi turbo system. At this point you will definitely be putting up horsepower numbers closer to the 320 range (at the crank). Of course in the mean time you are going to have to replace your tranny and driveline to handle that much torque.

Honestly the easiest/cheapes way for you to acheive 200+ horspower would be to run a 50 shot of nitrous.

Brad
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Old 01-17-2002, 11:40 AM   #12
sovereignmk1
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Quote:
Swap in a 3.3 litre flat 6 from an SVX (Between $2,000-$4,000).

Would it fit in there? And if it did, would another option be the slight less powerful XT-6 flat six? I could come by one of those more readily ie. Friend has 3 of em. Just come crazy wheels turning in my head.

/Mark
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Old 01-17-2002, 12:33 PM   #13
2.5GT
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I say turbo all the way! It's how all Subarus SHOULD be set up! Damn those US smog regulations!!!

Jason
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Old 01-17-2002, 02:38 PM   #14
Mako
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Default Buy a Paeco engine

For around $3500 you can get a brand new COMPLETE engine decked to put out around 320 horses, or less $$$ for a 260hp beast. They're made by Paeco. The advantage is, you're getting a whole new zero-miles engine, not just parts to bolt on.

And no turbo needed!

http://www.paeco.com
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Old 01-17-2002, 03:58 PM   #15
nate18t
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Yeah, i was thinking 130-135hp @ the wheels seemed way too high for AWD 165 crank hp. The new WRX's lightly modded can take me off the line with a violent launch but it's pretty quick to catch up to them and easily beat them in stoplight runs. In the rain or morning it is a different story though...

I'm assuming that the current 3" DP and cat-back are custom set-up for turbocharged engines since that seems a little big to run on a NA setup. Are any hi-flow cats available or are people generally just taking them out? We don't have vehicle inspections up here.

N2O is out of the question, he's just looking for an increase in power for daily spirited driving, not for racing situations.
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Old 01-17-2002, 06:07 PM   #16
Legacy777
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You may want to check out http://www.forcedairtech.com

I am planning on working with him for a turbo kit for my 90 Legacy. Probably going to go with the stage 2 kit, with an upgrade to the stage 3 turbo. It's a dual roller bearing turbo, the same one that is on the nissan skyline.

I know someone that has a stage 1 kit with a stage 3 turbo on his first gen wagon, and it hauls asss.
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Old 01-18-2002, 12:56 AM   #17
GTBGUY
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Mako - just an FYI, Paeco's built engines don't nearly produce that much power. They take a factor and multiply it to get the "crank" hp. It's just ricemath.

You will also have to be curious as to how they get their ratings. If their "320hp beast" is true, their "complete" engine would have to include either 4-440CC injectors as well as programmable ECU.

When it comes to looking at gains in the Paeco catalog, you should really take it with a grain of salt.
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Old 01-18-2002, 08:28 AM   #18
HIHO
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Peaco is a crock! 320hp from the boxer 4 NA for $3500? Not even possible.
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Old 01-18-2002, 01:25 PM   #19
monovich
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I ordered that catalog and am considering getting their cams instead of COBB because they cost half the price. I heard from Krockett that it wasn't worth spending $800 + installation for COBB cams....but maybe it's worth $400 + installation for PAECO.

And before you spout arbitrary remarks like "PAECO Sucks" you might want to do some more research. AFAIK, nobody has gotten their cams so we don't actually know if they suck or not. It's not like COBB has some special gift for cam grinding that others can't replicate.

but for the record, I hold them in a skeptical light just like everyone else. 320HP NA? Doubtful.

-S
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Old 01-18-2002, 01:32 PM   #20
HIHO
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I never said "PEACO SUCKS!" You need to go back and read this time. Look I don't have to do any more research I have done plenty. There is NO way you can get that much power from the Boxer4 NA. How much does the B4 get with TTs? I would buy their cams over COBB too. I never said they don't make quality stuff but they are a litttle over zealous with their hp marks.

Last edited by HIHO; 01-18-2002 at 01:40 PM.
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Old 01-18-2002, 01:43 PM   #21
monovich
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I wasn't speaking in direct response to just your post. I was speaking in generalitles. And like I said, I don't believe the 320hp number either, but I'm all for anything over 165hp, so they are worth looking at.

-S
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Old 01-18-2002, 02:19 PM   #22
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i think paeco industries would have the chance to go far with their subie products if they held any kind of presence on this or other subaru clubs. i for one, would probably have gone with them when getting my cams if i wasn't so hesitant on being the guinea pig. instead, their lack of exposure (good or bad) lead me to go with Cobb, even with the higher price. now, like monovich had mentioned earlier, i wish i had kept my $$$ for a turbo purchase.
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Old 01-18-2002, 02:32 PM   #23
GTkrockett
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Quote:
Originally posted by monovich
It's not like COBB has some special gift for cam grinding that others can't replicate.
-S
true true...take a look at this link if you're looking for cams
http://www.rconcepts.com/beard/dragn...dors/cams.html

though it may not be that all these shops will grind subie cams, i'm sure some of them will. i won't give away Cobb's source, but the irony of it all is that i shipped my cams to them (texas), and they then went ahead and shipped them back to (ca) for grinding, had the cams shipped back to them (texas) and then finally, back to me (ca). let me just say that besides the wasted time incurred during shipments, had i contacted the source directly, i probably would've saved much $$$.
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Old 01-18-2002, 11:46 PM   #24
GTBGUY
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Legacy GTR - Unfortunately it will not work with your conversion, as it uses a specific uppipe and downpipe, hence it it won't mate up to your system.
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Old 01-19-2002, 07:15 PM   #25
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Thanks GTBGUY, was worth a shot.
Mike
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