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Old 07-01-2010, 04:28 PM   #1
Sti77
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Default 4G63 vs EJ25

I owned a 2004 STi when they first hit the shores and spent ~$10k in APS parts, labor, and tuning to hit the 400awhp mark. Second baby showed up and I had to sell it a year later.

Following summer I picked up a 2004 EVO and did some minor mods - CAI, TBE, fuel pump, and a tune and hit the 295awhp mark. Third baby showed up and I had to sell it a year later.

Now I'm not having any more kids and want to pick up a another one but I'm having a struggle. This car will be a third, stored car, that will be modified heavily over the years. Still streetable, but I'd like to break the 600awhp mark. I spend a lot of time here and at evolutionm and over time I have found it shocking the difference in power gains mod for mod between the two.

Here are some examples of stock turbo and motor evos making over 400awhp when running E85.

http://forums.evolutionm.net/evo-dyn...rbo-hp-tq.html

Looking here, many 35R EJ's are making just over 400awhp, some even on built motors. My point isn't to start a flame war, but to understand what mechanically is causing the difference? Is it soley turbo placement and engine layout? I did a search but the only thread was from 2002.

I really love the subaru - the sound, refinement, look, tranny, etc. is awesome. However, I can improve the performance of the EVO for a fraction of the price.

Thanks for any insight...

Oh, and I'm not a big fan of the 4B11T/EVOX, so that is out.
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Old 07-01-2010, 04:41 PM   #2
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This has been covered. A lot. do a search.
4G:
Iron block = stronger
I4 = better spool
EJ:
aluminum block, even semiclosed, isn't as strong
H4 = LONG exhaust path to turbo as well as for IC
More displacement is nice.

But if you are going to build something.... either way its gonna be a built motor, so who cares about stock anything. STi tranny is better, other drivetrain parts are a wash.
Buy what looks better.
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Old 07-01-2010, 04:43 PM   #3
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IIRC the 4G63 Evos have a 10cm^2 turbo hotside too. Whereas ours is what, 7cm^2?
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Old 07-01-2010, 04:46 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OrbitalEllipses View Post
IIRC the 4G63 Evos have a 10cm^2 turbo hotside too. Whereas ours is what, 7cm^2?
this!

The evo turbo is as big as 20G and is Twin Scroll. Give me a 20G and I promise my car will make 400whp on E85 and trap 126-128mph. Just like the fastest stock turbo EVOs. If someone is looking 500whp + and EVO is a must
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Old 07-01-2010, 04:48 PM   #5
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I think a evo 8 or 9 with a built 4g63 would be better suited for you.

The things you like about the Suby
-Sound: with a 600whp subaru you will need equal length or twinscroll, so the boxer sound will most likely be gone.
-Refinement/Look: they both look somewhat similar :P
-Transmission: you would probably have to put straight cut in either.

And for the price it would be way easier/cheaper to achieve your goals with a 4g63.
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Old 07-01-2010, 04:54 PM   #6
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I-4 has nothing to do with spool.

Realistically these motors are VERY different, so much they aren't even worth comparing.

Rod ratio, bore/stroke ratio, compression ratio, cylinder head port symmetry, block strength, combustion chamber shape, charge and discharge coefficients, flowrates, thermal efficiencies...

due to layout of the engine however, they can have quicker spool and an even exhaust pulse much more easily than an EJ. Those are big for comparing the two motors in a street and race application. Their block in OEM form (still 85mm bore) allows for 40+psi boost where as a stock EJ257 is limited to a little over 30 or so. The 4G can run taller lift cams with more aggressive ramp rates. I.E. They can get easy power through lots of boost and big cams.

Comparing stock turbos, the TD05HR-16G smokes any stock subie turbo...but that is a moot point as you're looking for the 600 realm.
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Old 07-01-2010, 04:55 PM   #7
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I believe the only question in the OP is what causes the difference in mod for mod performance?

Answer: VE

Mods you can close now.
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Old 07-02-2010, 03:04 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OppositeLock View Post
I believe the only question in the OP is what causes the difference in mod for mod performance?

Answer: VE
This is really the best summed up answer imo.

Here's my list of reasons why the 46G3 is better (especially the last version):

1. VE (the rest of the list really all leads up to this)
2. Inline engines can run quite a bit leaner afr's safely (lean=power).
3. 4g63 can run considerably more boost safely due to an iron block and because it has better knock resistance.
4. This is complete guess but I'd imagine the ecu and knock control on the EVO is much more tuner friendly.
5. Mivec on the intake and exhaust cams.
6. Equal length exhaust manifold and twin scroll turbo from the factory, it also has a reasonably sized turbo.

It really doesn't take a genius to figure it out. We're comparing a 2.0l to a 2.5l in factory trim and they make basically the same power. And when one starts adding power to both engines we all know the 2.0l in the EVO gets the edge. As oppositelock said the 4g63 simply has better VE; therefore, it's a better engine.
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Old 07-02-2010, 03:26 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deuce Cam View Post
4. This is complete guess but I'd imagine the ecu and knock control on the EVO is much more tuner friendly.
5. Mivec on the intake and exhaust cams.
.
The tuner friendly is more of an engine deal than a purely software/hardware ECU type deal. The 4G63 is much easier to tune because you can simply add fuel, advance timing, and add boost and make, in the words of Big Al, "Big Evo Power Bro!". Subarus are much more difficult to tune.

Also the MIVEC is only on Evo 9s and is fairly useless past 500hp. I know this because I have a buddy whos Evo 9 MR is currently at Buschur Racing in Ohio getting a Built 2L engine, PT6262 (although he has a HTA86 on order), complete 1000hp fuel system, advanced ignition system, Shepherd Stg 3 trans and transfer case, and drag racing coilover setup. He should be turning about 700hp on 93 pump. He is running a 280 cam and they can't advance it very far and barely makes a difference in spool or power. Some people even disable it.
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Old 07-02-2010, 03:31 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corinator View Post
Also the MIVEC is only on Evo 9s and is fairly useless past 500hp. I know this because I have a buddy whos Evo 9 MR is currently at Buschur Racing in Ohio getting a Built 2L engine, PT6262 (although he has a HTA86 on order), complete 1000hp fuel system, advanced ignition system, Shepherd Stg 3 trans and transfer case, and drag racing coilover setup. He should be turning about 700hp on 93 pump. He is running a 280 cam and they can't advance it very far and barely makes a difference in spool or power. Some people even disable it.
Interesting, does your friend know Shep personally or have a really good hook up? From my understanding Shep hasn't released pricing or info on the 6spd rebuilds and what parts are being replaced/reinforced. Usually when the 6spds trans go, the intermediate shaft gets all banged up and is a $1200 part to replace. Unless your friend swapped a 5spd in his car, then ignore my past couple sentences.

To the OP, if you are gunning for an Evo, stick with the 5spd. I would look for an SSL SE, or the version with the sunroof.
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Old 07-03-2010, 02:44 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juanmedina View Post
funny.....

The fastest stock ECU EVO is an EVO 9 with mivec, it is also the fastest on drag radials. 8s on the stock ECU, 9.0 on drag radials

http://forums.evolutionm.net/drag-ra...ck-ecu-8s.html

http://forums.evolutionm.net/drag-ra...evo-8-9-a.html

check out my post on the first thread, they made fun of the subies, but is funny because is true
That's just what buschur told him so I am just relaying info. I don't claim to be an expert on the enemy (evos).

Quote:
Originally Posted by BoostinChick View Post
Interesting, does your friend know Shep personally or have a really good hook up? From my understanding Shep hasn't released pricing or info on the 6spd rebuilds and what parts are being replaced/reinforced. Usually when the 6spds trans go, the intermediate shaft gets all banged up and is a $1200 part to replace. Unless your friend swapped a 5spd in his car, then ignore my past couple sentences.

To the OP, if you are gunning for an Evo, stick with the 5spd. I would look for an SSL SE, or the version with the sunroof.
He actually did a 5spd conversion with the finish in 4th option. That way you can refrain from shifting to 5th when you are running like a 9 second quarter mile.
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Old 07-02-2010, 03:32 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corinator View Post
The tuner friendly is more of an engine deal than a purely software/hardware ECU type deal. The 4G63 is much easier to tune because you can simply add fuel, advance timing, and add boost and make, in the words of Big Al, "Big Evo Power Bro!". Subarus are much more difficult to tune.

Also the MIVEC is only on Evo 9s and is fairly useless past 500hp. I know this because I have a buddy whos Evo 9 MR is currently at Buschur Racing in Ohio getting a Built 2L engine, PT6262 (although he has a HTA86 on order), complete 1000hp fuel system, advanced ignition system, Shepherd Stg 3 trans and transfer case, and drag racing coilover setup. He should be turning about 700hp on 93 pump. He is running a 280 cam and they can't advance it very far and barely makes a difference in spool or power. Some people even disable it.

funny.....

The fastest stock ECU EVO is an EVO 9 with mivec, it is also the fastest on drag radials. 8s on the stock ECU, 9.0 on drag radials

http://forums.evolutionm.net/drag-ra...ck-ecu-8s.html

http://forums.evolutionm.net/drag-ra...evo-8-9-a.html

check out my post on the first thread, they made fun of the subies, but is funny because is true
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Old 07-05-2010, 11:04 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corinator View Post

Also the MIVEC is only on Evo 9s and is fairly useless past 500hp. I know this because I have a buddy whos Evo 9 MR is currently at Buschur Racing in Ohio getting a Built 2L engine...He is running a 280 cam and they can't advance it very far and barely makes a difference in spool or power. Some people even disable it.
uuuh probably not noticeable because his cam already has a retarded overlap
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Old 07-05-2010, 11:41 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prometheum View Post
uuuh probably not noticeable because his cam already has a retarded overlap
You try to advance the cam to reduce overlap at lower RPMs. Giant cams won't let you because valves get closer and closer to the pistons and exhaust valves.
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Old 07-01-2010, 05:00 PM   #15
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It really is comparing apples to oranges. If you really want cheaper hp get a dsm gen1 and go old school. I love the 4g63 but I prefer the fit, finish, and feel of the sti over the evo. just my opinion.
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Old 07-01-2010, 05:06 PM   #16
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Eh.. Spent 10 years in the DSM/Evo Arena.. Now I drive an 11 second scoob..

4g63>ej.. Stronger block, better flowing head, greater VE.. Etc etc etc..

But really who cares?

Either route can net similiar results built properly.. Until you start to cross that 1000 hp threshold.. There are plenty of mid 1k HP 4g63's.. Not so many ej's..

So as long as you arent shooting for 1500 hp.. Again.. Who cares? Pick the vehicle that suits you better.. Personally I love my Suby..
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Old 07-01-2010, 05:27 PM   #17
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I would just sell my STi and get a 03/04 mustang cobra and for 10k get a 3.4L whipple supercharger and all the supporting mods and be churning out 800 ponies on E85. Just my opinion lol. Also a great deal more reliable.
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Old 07-01-2010, 06:27 PM   #18
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^^Dont do this.
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Old 07-01-2010, 07:25 PM   #19
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^^^ what he said.
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Old 07-01-2010, 07:33 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corinator View Post
I would just sell my STi and get a 03/04 mustang cobra and for 10k get a 3.4L whipple supercharger and all the supporting mods and be churning out 800 ponies on E85. Just my opinion lol. Also a great deal more reliable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PuffKevinFizzle View Post
^^Dont do this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fourmicah View Post
^^^ what he said.
PuffKevinFizzle and fourmicah have apparently never experienced brute v8 power before... a 3.4 whippled cobra will make you wet your pants if done right

power per dollar a v8 is the way to go... also take a look at a c5 zo6 ...you can get them for about 20-25k if you look around. A zo6 handles pretty good and will rape bolt on sti's/evos ...trust me, ive seen first hand over 100 times
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Old 07-01-2010, 07:45 PM   #21
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^^Apparently you dont realize his question was not about how sweet v8 supercharged whipple nipple blah blah mustangs are. So lets keep it on topic.
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Old 07-14-2010, 03:52 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by All4bSpinnin View Post

power per dollar a v8 is the way to go... also take a look at a c5 zo6 ...you can get them for about 20-25k if you look around. A zo6 handles pretty good and will rape bolt on sti's/evos ...trust me, ive seen first hand over 100 times
I have 25K into my 2.5 Franken build and I can assure you a zo6 will be in my rearview. Just buy an old car, build it piece by piece, mod by mod till you get to your desired goal.
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Old 07-01-2010, 07:59 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corinator View Post
I would just sell my STi and get a 03/04 mustang cobra and for 10k get a 3.4L whipple supercharger and all the supporting mods and be churning out 800 ponies on E85. Just my opinion lol. Also a great deal more reliable.
actually, do this
if you want massive power and reliability the 03-04 cobra is awesome, and after the maximum motorsports grip kit, brembos, and some 17x11 with 315/40/17 all the way around, your handling and braking will not be an issue

once again its all about preference

i'd take the 4g63 and stroke it
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Old 07-02-2010, 07:39 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsutraitor View Post
If you really want cheaper hp get a dsm gen1 and go old school.


I assume he wants this car to be functional at some point, rather than just taking up parking space.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BenGSX View Post
Either route can net similiar results built properly..
Sure, they can, any Subaru based application just takes $texas to get there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corinator View Post
I would just sell my STi and get a 03/04 mustang cobra and for 10k get a 3.4L whipple supercharger and all the supporting mods and be churning out 800 ponies on E85. Just my opinion lol. Also a great deal more reliable.
This.

If I were looking for a 600whp garage queen, this is the ticket.
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Old 07-03-2010, 10:25 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cucamelsmd15 View Post


I assume he wants this car to be functional at some point, rather than just taking up parking space.
Yea, I owned an older DSM, 4G63 and I couldn't even drive 5 miles to work without having a problem with it. Very powerful car, horrible reliability.
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