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Old 11-06-2010, 03:18 PM   #1
KillerBMotorsport
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Default Killer B Motorsport Header Testing Results

Event: Killer B Header Test & Comparison
Location: Epic Motorsports, Fayetteville, NC
Ambient Temp: 70s
Elevation: Sea Level
Weather: Partly Sunny

08 Sti
Tuner: Robbie/ Epic Motorsports
Dyno Info: Mustang
Peak HP at RPM: 295@5,300
Peak Torque at RPM: 339@3,500
Baseline hp/tq for a stock on same dyno: 241hp & 247ft/lbs W/ Megan Cat-Back
Target Boost:
Target AFR:
Fuel: 93

Here's the end of the day results with the car as it came in the morning, stock with the exception of a Megan Cat-Back, and as it left at the end of the day. The Customer was VERY happy with the results.




Before converting the car to stage II we installed the Killer B header just to see what kind of results we'd get on essentially a stock car. The OEM tune was not very happy with the changes so we could only compare both stock vs. Killer B header using the Cobb OTS Stage I map. Thankfully, we had tried out the Cobb Stage I map after getting our baseline runs.




Here's a comparison of Stage II with OEM header vs. Killer B Header

OTS Stage II with OEM Header vs OTS Stage II with Killer B Motorsport Header. Stage II mods: Cobb AP Stage II, Megan Catt-Back, Invidia Catted DP, K&N Typhoon Intake, Walbro Fuel Pump, and Killer B Motorsport Header/up-pipe. +25 HP and +18 ft/lbs



Here's the Cobb Stage II vs the final Epic Motorsports Custom Tune.





Here's a similar result that was seen during Killer B Header testing done at EFI Logics.

You can find thier Full Review RIGHT HERE.



Killer B's GD


Customer's GR


Last edited by KillerBMotorsport; 12-30-2010 at 09:22 AM.
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Old 11-06-2010, 04:59 PM   #2
synolimit
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100% for real, your saying that OTS stage 2 OEM header VS. your header had that much gain? was any tuning done or was it just thrown on and run again
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Old 11-06-2010, 05:17 PM   #3
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Notice that on the stage 2 testing with the Cobb OTS map, the test with the headers is a lot leaner than the test without. I would easily attribute at least a decent chunk of that gain to the fact that the headers leaned out the tune.

-- Ed
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Old 11-08-2010, 10:32 PM   #4
NSFW
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Equilibrium Tuning View Post
Notice that on the stage 2 testing with the Cobb OTS map, the test with the headers is a lot leaner than the test without. I would easily attribute at least a decent chunk of that gain to the fact that the headers leaned out the tune.

-- Ed
Do you have any theories on how that can happen, given that fueling is based on a MAF sensor?
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Old 11-09-2010, 07:20 AM   #5
mapleleaf
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Changed the VE of the motor?
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Old 11-09-2010, 09:53 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mapleleaf View Post
Changed the VE of the motor?
that would be my thought...but I'd want more engine data before my hypothetical guesses about reasons for difference in power.
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Old 11-09-2010, 11:59 AM   #7
NSFW
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mapleleaf View Post
Changed the VE of the motor?
I assume they would.
So, there's more air going through the motor.
So, there's more air going past the MAF sensor.
So, the ECU is adding more fuel accordingly.
So, the question remains: what causes the mixture to lean out?

Bad MAF scaling is my only guess. The motor moves a little more air, so it run a little higher MAF voltage, and the MAF curve is wrong at that voltage, so the mixture leans out. But it's just a guess, I'd love to hear other theories on this.

Anyway, those two charts are not just showing the results of the KB headers, they are showing the results of running a leaner AFRs.

Good comparisons are really hard to do.
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Old 11-06-2010, 05:29 PM   #8
synolimit
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very true. looks a little to rich before hand though. looks pretty good after the header right around 11.
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Old 11-06-2010, 05:42 PM   #9
gtasti
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can't wait to retune with my new killerb header looking for over 400hps this time around
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Old 11-06-2010, 05:59 PM   #10
SeaOfGreen
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What's the point of comparing to stock? I want to check the difference between this header compared to other named brand header's! That will be the real test!
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Old 11-06-2010, 06:19 PM   #11
andboe
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the fact that's it's 321 stainless steel is enough to sway me (everything else for stock location seems to be 304) but i'd like an option for an EWG on the uppipe.

nice results and nice product. good to see someone designing something with quality materials
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Old 11-06-2010, 06:45 PM   #12
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I have a few other comparisons, but in general with the longer primary type headers and 1.5 scroll headers (Invidia, GP Moto, etc.) you see significantly reduced spool time and power carried higher into the revs. With the shorter and smaller diameter primary type headers (Perrin, GTSpec, etc.) you'll see similar or better spool time with decent gains higher in the revs.

Here's a comparison to Perrin's headers (Killer B setup dashed lines)...

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Old 11-07-2010, 06:21 PM   #13
Equilibrium Tuning
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KillerBMotorsport View Post
I have a few other comparisons, but in general with the longer primary type headers and 1.5 scroll headers (Invidia, GP Moto, etc.) you see significantly reduced spool time and power carried higher into the revs. With the shorter and smaller diameter primary type headers (Perrin, GTSpec, etc.) you'll see similar or better spool time with decent gains higher in the revs.

Here's a comparison to Perrin's headers (Killer B setup dashed lines)...

Looks like a bit more boost with your header up top is causing the increase in power. With the Perrin test, it looks like there was a boost leak or a pre-turbo exhaust leak... notice the torque peak is well after 4k RPM. This could also explain the lower boost levels up top.

BTW, I'm not saying your product is not good, but we all have to be very careful about how we run tests like this to make sure they're fair. I don't want this to turn into another Garage GT fiasco .

Thanks
-- Ed

Last edited by Equilibrium Tuning; 11-07-2010 at 06:46 PM.
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Old 11-07-2010, 06:43 PM   #14
Junior2JZ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Equilibrium Tuning View Post
Looks like a bit more boost with your header up top is causing the increase in power. With the Perrin test, it looks like there was a boost leak or a pre-turbo exhaust leak... notice the torque peak is well after 4k RPM. This could also explain the lower boost levels up top.

BTW, I'm not saying your product is not good, but we all have to be very careful about how we run tests like this to make sure they're fair. I don't want this to turn into another Garage Tuning fiasco .

Thanks
-- Ed
I wouldn't bet on that. Look at the 41-4700 range, it makes more boost as well but a little less power. The spool looks about right for the perrin header, and the boost curve looks pretty smooth for having a pre-turbo exhaust/boost leak. The power gain up top is also pretty substantial, I doubt the 1/2psi more boost is making the power gain, look at the gain past 6200 were the boost is virtually the same.

My opinion would be that Chris built himself a good working header.
I wouldn't mind swapping out my Tomie and trying the KillerB out on my XT
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Old 11-14-2010, 01:25 AM   #15
garageGT
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Equilibrium Tuning View Post
Looks like a bit more boost with your header up top is causing the increase in power. With the Perrin test, it looks like there was a boost leak or a pre-turbo exhaust leak... notice the torque peak is well after 4k RPM. This could also explain the lower boost levels up top.

BTW, I'm not saying your product is not good, but we all have to be very careful about how we run tests like this to make sure they're fair. I don't want this to turn into another Garage GT fiasco .

Thanks
-- Ed
you and your leak theories
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Old 11-14-2010, 10:44 AM   #16
Equilibrium Tuning
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garageGT View Post
you and your leak theories
My leak theories are based on actually physically testing many cars for boost and exhaust leaks and finding major leaks in about 75% of tested cars and smaller leaks in about 90%. These are cars that have been built by "proffesional" shops as well as private parties. Because of this we always pressure test all cars that we work on extensively. No one believes their cars have leaks until they see it for themselves. I believe this sort of test should be common practice and especially so when doing testing and comparisons.

-- Ed
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Old 11-14-2010, 11:55 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Equilibrium Tuning View Post
My leak theories are based on actually physically testing many cars for boost and exhaust leaks and finding major leaks in about 75% of tested cars and smaller leaks in about 90%. These are cars that have been built by "proffesional" shops as well as private parties. Because of this we always pressure test all cars that we work on extensively. No one believes their cars have leaks until they see it for themselves. I believe this sort of test should be common practice and especially so when doing testing and comparisons.

-- Ed
I agree but you should get over it, not everybody have leaks.
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Old 11-14-2010, 12:53 PM   #18
KillerBMotorsport
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Equilibrium Tuning View Post
My leak theories are based on actually physically testing many cars for boost and exhaust leaks and finding major leaks in about 75% of tested cars and smaller leaks in about 90%. These are cars that have been built by "proffesional" shops as well as private parties. Because of this we always pressure test all cars that we work on extensively. No one believes their cars have leaks until they see it for themselves. I believe this sort of test should be common practice and especially so when doing testing and comparisons.

-- Ed
Ed, while I don't have your data regarding the effects of manifold leaks I can tell you that when we were researching manifold designs we came a cross a lot of "don't do this" material (same as when we designed our oil pan) and I will keep these manufactures nameless. One of those items that we didn't want to deal with was gasket leaks due to poor flange design and/or warping from welding. I've posted a few examples we came across during our what not to do search. one has obvious leaks due to finish and/or warped flange surface the other just has horrible finish that will likely leak at some level too. Of course the 2 bolt flange was never an option for our setup as they are horribly unreliable from a gasket/seal perspective.





Not only a rough time saver finish, but you'll notice the top right hole is ovalized. This is not something you'll NEVER see in a Killer B Header.



Regarding our product, we are not a shop, we're a manufacturer. You'll never find one of our welders installing parts or wrenching on cars one day and welding another. They weld, and only weld. They are welders and know how to spread the heat around to minimize warping. ALL of our flanges are CNC machined on all surfaces to our own spec to provide a flat smooth surface finish. Even at this, a 1/2" flange can still move some, and that's why we grind our flange surface flat as one of the final processes our headers go through.

The last variable we have no control over; who installs the product. Were new OEM gaskets used, torqued to proper spec, etc. That's up to you guys
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Old 11-07-2010, 11:59 AM   #19
gtasti
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I just took it out for a spin with this header and new 20g installed and feels a lot better then the stock mainfold throttle is dead on so responsive now, I also had perrin headers before and the response time wasnt half as good as these headers
mind you i didnt hit any boost really not tuned yet for the new stuff

cant wait to re-tune
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Old 11-07-2010, 01:40 PM   #20
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^ Very nice!
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Old 11-07-2010, 02:37 PM   #21
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Goodjob chris! Congrats on another awesome product!

-Stu
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Old 11-07-2010, 02:38 PM   #22
OVeRBOOSTn
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Goodjob chris! Congrats on another awesome product!

-Stu
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Old 11-07-2010, 03:33 PM   #23
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can we see the timing curves since thats where the power is coming from......
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Old 11-07-2010, 04:14 PM   #24
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For which plots EFI or Epic? I know the Epic before/after plots use the Cobb OTS maps, except for the final custom tune.
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Old 11-07-2010, 06:50 PM   #25
Equilibrium Tuning
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I don't know... I haven't tuned too many perrin header VF cars that had a torque peak near 4500RPM. I've also seen a lot of perrin headers leak from the slips or warped flanges, so I wouldn't be surprised at all if that's what caused the excessive lag.

The only real fair comparison I see here is the one done by EFI. It shows some healthy gains above 5k RPM with a bit of added lag compared to a factory header. Now I'd really like to see a fair comparison with a Tomei/GTSpec/MadDad header.

-- Ed
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