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Old 07-28-2011, 08:45 PM   #1
Frogsthatmoo
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Default Taller 5th Gear?

Ok, so currently my new Outback has a 5th gear of .871 and a final drive of 4.11. I've spent the last couple of weeks searching the internet for a straightforward answer to my question.

How hard would it be to put the .78 5th gear found in other Subaru trannys?

I've found a couple threads (only one on NASIOC was helpful) that even got close to answering my question. A couple did have really great information though. First off, I know I do not need to split the tranny case open to swap out the 5th gear and that it is possible to leave the transmission in (albeit it'll be significantly harder) but possible. Basically, I was wondering if someone that knows their way around Subaru transmissions well enough to give me a rough run down of the process. Most of the threads I read about turned into small arguments about the logic of doing this swap and I'd really rather not talk about why I want to do this.

Thanks!
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Old 07-28-2011, 09:25 PM   #2
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it may be easier and cheaper to just find another 4.11 5mt trans that has a better ratio and swapping the whole thing out


or maybe put taller tires on the car


and maybe the reason you want to do this is just really dumb and the end result can be accomplished without all the bs that isnt really important anyway

Quote:
Most of the threads I read about turned into small arguments about the logic of doing this swap and I'd really rather not talk about why I want to do this.
and that is usually because there are a lot of stupid people out there that wanna do real stupid things for real stupid ideas and have used faulty logic to arrive at their decisions and that is both sad and hilarious at the same time......and usually the people who say this in their post......

s00000000....tell us the whole thing....dont leave out the gory details
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Old 07-28-2011, 10:13 PM   #3
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Hahah, I love you Scotty.

Well, the reason for the 5th gear all started when I was cruising around some back streets about a week ago. Had been drinking a little and decided I wanted a little action. Found a hooker... one thing led to the next.... now I have to drive to out of town (120 miles round trip) twice a week for three months to go to class. It's only an annoyance, but I hate having my revs at 3500 just to go 74 mph. My brother's BH Outback will do 85 @ 3300 and it's quite nice.
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Old 07-29-2011, 12:51 AM   #4
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^^^ Well why didn't you say that in the first place? We're here to help ya brother!

It can be done in the car, but you'll have one helluva time retorquing the driven shaft nut (50mm) back to 195 lb/ft. I dunno if I'd want to stress the other gears or syncro hub that much. But I suppose if the ramp up to that torque is slow and smooth as it should be, it might not be a problem.

After removing the transfer section, you need to unstake and remove the 36mm and 50mm nut on the main and driven shafts. 27mm nut on driven shaft can stay in place.

Drive pin out of 5th-R shift fork

Slide syncro, fork and 5th gear off main shaft, set aside.

Use a puller to remove 5th from driven shaft.

Clean everything you see, add some assembly lube for reassembly.

Press new 5th back onto driven shaft.

preassemble 5th syncro, fork and gear to slide back onto main shaft.

Ideally, replace the nuts....or reinstall and torque the main shaft nut to 85-90 lb/ft and driven shaft nut to 195 lb/ft. Restake both nuts

Clean up gasket material on mating surfaces and reinstall transfer section with a new gasket (ive used ultra grey here with no issues).

shift linkage, drive shaft, refill gear oil.

exhaust , etc.....

roadtest.

Have fun,
Jay
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Old 07-29-2011, 06:44 PM   #5
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^^^^^^


now that is just too much work.....taller tires is far easier and cheaper in the long run


and even swapping the whole trans out would be a far easier affair


Quote:
Originally Posted by Frogsthatmoo View Post
Hahah, I love you Scotty.

Well, the reason for the 5th gear all started when I was cruising around some back streets about a week ago. Had been drinking a little and decided I wanted a little action. Found a hooker... one thing led to the next.... now I have to drive to out of town (120 miles round trip) twice a week for three months to go to class. It's only an annoyance, but I hate having my revs at 3500 just to go 74 mph. My brother's BH Outback will do 85 @ 3300 and it's quite nice.



d000000000d....that is either the best or the worst story I've ever seen posted

or both
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Old 07-30-2011, 12:56 AM   #6
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Haha, well, maybe I'll just be happy with what I have I suppose. Doesn't sound terribly impossible (not easy though, I'm not saying that).

Now, does anyone know if the .78 gear will literally just slide on to replace the .871? There was mention somewhere of whether or not it would.



Oh, and Scotty, don't worry. The hooker is fine.
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Old 07-30-2011, 12:04 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frogsthatmoo View Post
Haha, well, maybe I'll just be happy with what I have I suppose. Doesn't sound terribly impossible (not easy though, I'm not saying that).

Now, does anyone know if the .78 gear will literally just slide on to replace the .871? There was mention somewhere of whether or not it would.



Oh, and Scotty, don't worry. The hooker is fine.
Our Mr. Storm has provided a virtually complete set of instructions on swapping the gear......and if he posts on anything transmission related, pay particular attention to his posts as he is, without any doubt, a TRUE expert in these transmissions.

I would buy a set of taller tires.....

what size tires are on the car now???
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Old 07-30-2011, 02:11 PM   #8
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The .780 gear goes right onto the shaft. There are no funky gotcha's to be concerned with, aside from not mixing up the drive/driven gearset.

I've done this swap with my '96 Brighton, which had a .825 5th ratio. The .780 is (was) much better on the highway for cruising and milage, though with no turbo and a 3.90 final drive, I did find it easy to drift below the most efficient area of the rpm range and need downshifts to make passes.

On the other hand, triple digits click off at points where the tach is not screaming at you....


Jay
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Old 07-30-2011, 10:34 PM   #9
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Awesome! Thank you Storm. Very many thanks.

I have no problem with dropping to 4th, around town I hardly even leave it since I never get above 45 and 5th is a pointless shift.

I currently have 225/60/16 on the car (per spec). I looked it up and the 225/65 would raise lower the gearing to about 77mph @ 3500 RPM. I'm going to call my indy mechanic and see if they'd be up for the job. I've trusted them for a long while now so I just have to find out if they'd be down.
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Old 07-31-2011, 12:54 AM   #10
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Doing this with the trans out of the car is close to 1000 times easier. I'll say that much.


good luck, have fun!

Jay
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Old 07-31-2011, 11:45 AM   #11
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I personally wouldn't even try this with the gearbox in the car. With a lift, the box is out and on the bench in less than an hour.
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Old 07-31-2011, 12:07 PM   #12
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I am going to be selling my 5mt that has a .78 5th gear from an 03-04 Legacy L(its the factory ratios). There are about 40k miles on it(I've only put 10k on it). It is also 4.11 FD. Currently someone local is interested but I can let you know if they end up not buying it.

I guess it depends how much that 5th gear is worth without having to do any work haha.

Ben
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Old 07-31-2011, 12:33 PM   #13
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Oh? How much are you parting with it? This might be the better route because then I don't have to play with the synchros or any of the smaller bits.
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Old 02-03-2013, 02:15 AM   #14
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OP, did you ever follow through? If so, how did it go?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm View Post
Press new 5th back onto driven shaft.
Hey Jay,

Real stupid question; how do you "press" the gear on?

I am planning to do the same swap on my Ver4 STi Type-R V-Limited 5mt (TY752VB5CA). FD is 4.444 with an 0.825 5th...brutal

-Rob
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Old 02-04-2013, 02:23 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rob View Post
I am planning to do the same swap on my Ver4 STi Type-R V-Limited 5mt (TY752VB5CA). FD is 4.444 with an 0.825 5th...brutal

-Rob
Twice I have done this for bugeye WRX customers who had highway commutes. Before we swapped gearboxes for them, we would open it up and put the 0.73 stock WRX 5th gear in the box. Thing is like a rocketship to 110mph+/- and then they can still cruise the highway at 75mph without running the engine at 4000+

The only place this really doesn't work is if you want to track the car. Then the 4-5 shift just has way too big rpm drops and takes all the fun out of going to the track with it.
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Old 02-19-2013, 05:32 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Monson View Post
Twice I have done this for bugeye WRX customers who had highway commutes. Before we swapped gearboxes for them, we would open it up and put the 0.73 stock WRX 5th gear in the box. Thing is like a rocketship to 110mph+/- and then they can still cruise the highway at 75mph without running the engine at 4000+

The only place this really doesn't work is if you want to track the car. Then the 4-5 shift just has way too big rpm drops and takes all the fun out of going to the track with it.
I've been considering doing this, but with an RA 1-4 into a 3.9 FD gearbox. Less rocketship, but gets you to ~132 MPH in 4th at 8k redline. Much less limiting than 112-ish of the 4.44
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Old 02-04-2013, 10:07 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rob View Post
Hey Jay,

Real stupid question; how do you "press" the gear on?
-Rob
With the trans in the car, pressing it on is more like tapping it on with a brass drift, or stacking spacers between the gear and nut, then using the nut to pull it into place. Outside the car and apart, it's a simple push with the shop press.


Jay
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Old 02-05-2013, 01:22 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frogsthatmoo View Post
^ I ended up putting it on the back burner for a bit. I had school and work too much to work on it. But I've been thinking about it a lot lately and might go ahead and order the gear set with some of my tax return.
Alright, last one done owes the other a beer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Monson View Post
Twice I have done this for bugeye WRX customers who had highway commutes. Before we swapped gearboxes for them, we would open it up and put the 0.73 stock WRX 5th gear in the box. Thing is like a rocketship to 110mph+/- and then they can still cruise the highway at 75mph without running the engine at 4000+

The only place this really doesn't work is if you want to track the car. Then the 4-5 shift just has way too big rpm drops and takes all the fun out of going to the track with it.
Good to know Matt, thanks for the insight. Remember this is with a V4 motor so I have a few more revs to play with than the bugeyes :P


Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm View Post
With the trans in the car, pressing it on is more like tapping it on with a brass drift, or stacking spacers between the gear and nut, then using the nut to pull it into place. Outside the car and apart, it's a simple push with the shop press.


Jay
Ah, I see. I will have the box on the ground so no more of this "in the car" nonsense. But using a press suggests that one cracks open the case and pulls the shafts out? Isn't it easier to keep it together?

More stupid questions if you don't mind;

1) Does DCCD complicate things?

2) When adding a ph2 gearset to a ph1 trans, exactly which parts need to be swapped over?

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Old 02-05-2013, 01:11 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rob View Post
Good to know Matt, thanks for the insight. Remember this is with a V4 motor so I have a few more revs to play with than the bugeyes :P
Doesn't change where it will run at freeway speeds. If you are referring to using it on the track, it might give you enough, but I would personally run a gearchart before commiting.
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Old 02-05-2013, 03:12 PM   #20
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Quote:
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Alright, last one done owes the other a beer
Haha, deal. Better hurry because I'm shopping for the gear set as we speak. Trying to decide between the .73 and .78. Someone had recommended the .78 over the .73 for the NA 2.5 so I may be looking at that.
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Old 02-04-2013, 02:02 AM   #21
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^ I ended up putting it on the back burner for a bit. I had school and work too much to work on it. But I've been thinking about it a lot lately and might go ahead and order the gear set with some of my tax return.

Also, what do you do with that kind of gearing? Sheesh! Do you even use all of the gears?
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Old 02-05-2013, 03:49 PM   #22
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I just grabbed a '02 RS 5spd and swapped it into my sisters' '00 Outback 5spd. I told her it won't have as much grunt as before on the highway, but it'll help with fuel mileage some.

Simple
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Old 02-05-2013, 03:52 PM   #23
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Anything to add or comment on Jay's original instructions?

-Rob
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Old 02-08-2013, 09:26 PM   #24
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I'm very interested in doing the same on my '02 Outback when I pull things out to do a clutch (I will pull out trans if I decide to do this gear swap). It seemed like it was possible without cracking the case open. Where are you buying the gear set? It would be great if you posted some pics of doing this..
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Old 02-09-2013, 10:43 PM   #25
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I'll definitely make sure to take enough pictures. There's an online Subaru parts seller that has it for sale for $150 with tax. I'm not sure about the credibility of the site, but I'll probably try them out anyways.

http://www.subarupartswebsite.com/OE...2315AA420.html
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