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Old 08-16-2002, 12:30 PM   #1
jmott
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Default re-reading "how to make your car handle" last night

interesting bits:

*the amount of weight transfer that body roll adds is basically zero. Only a tiny amount (<3% of the cars weight) of weight transfer is added due to the CG of the car changing as the car rolls.
In other words, you could have bricks for springs, and 50mm swaybars and the weight transfer in a corner won't really change.
the only way to reduce the weight transfer is to lower the CG of the car.

*changing the roll stiffness on one SIDE of the car causes more of the cars weight to be transfered to that side of the car in a corner. so a stiffer rear bar, or stiffer rear springs, causes more weight to transfer to the rear of the car. which is how you can tune over/undertseer with stiffer swaybars/springs etc.

*the main reason to reduce body roll (besides the *Slight* reduction in weight transfer) is to reduce the amount of camber change mid corner.

so from this what can we learn?
body roll really isn't all that bad.
lower is better.
adjustable swaybars and struts are going to be useful for dialing in the over/understeer properties of the car.
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Old 08-16-2002, 12:43 PM   #2
Orion
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yep, lower is better. unfortunately i only went with the 30mm srpings over the 45 mm ones. my car is still ever so slightly lower than yours. plus i'm a little shorter than you so i don't move the CG much.
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Old 08-16-2002, 12:44 PM   #3
Orion
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BTW - I got your 'secret mod' last night. My copy looks like someone went to Kinko's to make it.
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Old 08-16-2002, 12:50 PM   #4
jmott
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Quote:
Originally posted by orionf
BTW - I got your 'secret mod' last night. My copy looks like someone went to Kinko's to make it.
heh
mine arrived yesterday as well

its the content that counts! not the presentation =)
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Old 08-16-2002, 12:51 PM   #5
jmott
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Quote:
Originally posted by orionf
yep, lower is better. unfortunately i only went with the 30mm srpings over the 45 mm ones. my car is still ever so slightly lower than yours. plus i'm a little shorter than you so i don't move the CG much.
haha

I dunno, when I measured with my high tech water bottle tool
it seemd the same

we need those ground controls that prey has
so we can jack it down for the autox
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Old 08-16-2002, 01:05 PM   #6
LiquidIQ
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I think tuning the understeer/oversteer is cruicial though, IMO. When I went to a 22mm adj. rear sway and endlinks, I noticed the car being very uneven but at the same time, I could not get the back end to swing out. When I put the 20mm front sway on, I have noticed the car being MUCH more nuetral and definately better handling than stock. I can take a corner much faster with more confidence because of the predictability and the front end not dipping as much as it was. It will be interesting to see what happens when I go to a coilover system. I'll more than likely have to either stiffen or loosen the rear sway to adjust.

This is with stock springs/struts and 17" wheels with Yoko AVS Sports.

- Steven
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Old 08-16-2002, 01:09 PM   #7
jmott
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the increase in speed you noticed through the corner you noticed (which I kinda doubt you experimented with scientifically, kinda scares me to try!) may have been due mostly to reduced camber change in the corner.

OR, from better dividing up the cars weight between front and rear.

and yeah, when I get some sort of adjustable strut setup, I will experiment with going back to the stock front sway bar and set my rear bar softer.


Quote:
Originally posted by LiquidIQ
I think tuning the understeer/oversteer is cruicial though, IMO. When I went to a 22mm adj. rear sway and endlinks, I noticed the car being very uneven but at the same time, I could not get the back end to swing out. When I put the 20mm front sway on, I have noticed the car being MUCH more nuetral and definately better handling than stock. I can take a corner much faster with more confidence because of the predictability and the front end not dipping as much as it was. It will be interesting to see what happens when I go to a coilover system. I'll more than likely have to either stiffen or loosen the rear sway to adjust.

This is with stock springs/struts and 17" wheels with Yoko AVS Sports.

- Steven
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Old 08-16-2002, 01:17 PM   #8
Tex-WReX
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http://shopping.yahoo.com/shop?d=b&i...0&note=1#notes


I have this book and it is also a good read. Anyone that would like to check it out, I will bring it to the next auto-x.


ps- you guys have a link to purchase the handling book?

thanks
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Old 08-16-2002, 01:19 PM   #9
jmott
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www.amazon.com

search for "how to make your car handle"


Quote:
Originally posted by Tex-WReX
http://shopping.yahoo.com/shop?d=b&i...0&note=1#notes


I have this book and it is also a good read. Anyone that would like to check it out, I will bring it to the next auto-x.


ps- you guys have a link to purchase the handling book?

thanks
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Old 08-16-2002, 01:48 PM   #10
LiquidIQ
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Yea, it might be the reduced camber change, I have about a degree in the front. I think a lot of it though, it the better balance of weight through the car when doing the corner. I don't feel the rear or the front getting floaty at all, it just sticks.

There's this turnaround by the best buy and it's a two lane 90degree turn, twice. Since it's two lane, you have a little play room. Stock I would understeer that mother like a bish, with the rear, I could feel the rear floating a tad, but now it's quite nice and crisp through the turn.

- Steven

Quote:
Originally posted by jmott
the increase in speed you noticed through the corner you noticed (which I kinda doubt you experimented with scientifically, kinda scares me to try!) may have been due mostly to reduced camber change in the corner.

OR, from better dividing up the cars weight between front and rear.

and yeah, when I get some sort of adjustable strut setup, I will experiment with going back to the stock front sway bar and set my rear bar softer.


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Old 08-16-2002, 01:58 PM   #11
Tex-WReX
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Default thanks

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Old 08-16-2002, 03:52 PM   #12
Bad Dogg
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Default You can buy it at borders

on alabama, along with max. boost by corky bell - both good bedtime reading.
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Old 08-16-2002, 08:35 PM   #13
wcbjr
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Two (three?) words for you. Anti-lift kit. I just did this last night and the change is very substantial. Took my favorite 2 turns 5-10 mph faster last night, that would be from 100->105 and 45->55 mph. That's exit speed, btw.
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Old 08-16-2002, 08:41 PM   #14
Orion
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Quote:
Originally posted by wcbjr
Two (three?) words for you. Anti-lift kit. I just did this last night and the change is very substantial. Took my favorite 2 turns 5-10 mph faster last night, that would be from 100->105 and 45->55 mph. That's exit speed, btw.
Big problem for most of us....

ALK is illegal for Stock, STS, STX, SP classes, and even SM!

Besides a good set of coilovers will be more versatile and would eliminate the need for an ALK. Sure it's 10-20X for coilovers, but they are legal and adapt better to specific conditions. Many of us AutoX or go to track events. If I didn't race, the ALK would have been on my car last November!
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Old 08-16-2002, 10:23 PM   #15
Bankheist
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Quote:
Originally posted by wcbjr
Two (three?) words for you. Anti-lift kit. I just did this last night and the change is very substantial. Took my favorite 2 turns 5-10 mph faster last night, that would be from 100->105 and 45->55 mph. That's exit speed, btw.
we're going out for a drive soon.
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Old 08-17-2002, 11:57 AM   #16
wcbjr
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How would coilovers eliminate the need for the ALK? For one, the ALK changes suspension geometry, notably .5 degress positive castor. Also, it replaces bushings with less compliant ones. How would coilovers do that? Sure they could lower the car a bit, that would help. But other than that, how could they achieve the same results?

edit: castor, not camber

Last edited by wcbjr; 08-17-2002 at 12:20 PM.
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Old 08-17-2002, 12:01 PM   #17
wcbjr
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Oh, and you guys really didn't read this post. Just in case I want to run in SM someday...
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Old 08-17-2002, 09:58 PM   #18
jmott
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Quote:
Originally posted by wcbjr
How would coilovers eliminate the need for the ALK? For one, the ALK changes suspension geometry, notably .5 degress positive castor. Also, it replaces bushings with less compliant ones. How would coilovers do that? Sure they could lower the car a bit, that would help. But other than that, how could they achieve the same results?

edit: castor, not camber

anti-lift

stiffer struts and springs wont let the front end lift as much.

simple =)
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Old 08-18-2002, 07:02 PM   #19
wcbjr
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Yeah, but you'll be hopping and sliding all over the place. Fine if you like to hit cones.
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