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Old 02-13-2012, 12:03 PM   #1
bbong
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Default AEM EMS v1 and Crappy Start

I have a fully build long block, with Kelford 280 Non-AVCS Cams, since I switched over to AEM from Hydra (due to lack of tuners close by to tune Hydra), my start's been horrible especially on cold days.

So this is what happens when car is cold, say sits in around 20-30F weather.

1) I crank it first, for around 5 seconds, no pickup or nothing just cranks.
2) Second attempt, cranks and cranks again until around last few turns, it starts to pick up and you hear engine firing, stutters and no go.
3) Continue attempt, more pickups from the engine, I have to depress the gas pedal, or it'll never start and begin idling by itself.
4) Around the 4th time, it'll have a rough pickup, engine fires, I have to depress the gas pedal to raise the RPM to around 2K/rpm and keep it there for around 60-90sec., so I can let of the gas pedal and it'll than start idling by itself.

Once the car warms up and Coolant temp reaches it's operating temperature, it'll idle fine, but if I turn it off, it'll have a hard time starting again, but less so as it's now warm, so it'll take 2-3 tries to get it running instead of 4.

I will post my map later tonight as well as the video of it cranking, I'm fed up with this behavior which I can't seem to get rid of, not sure if it's the AEM or what, but I recall not having this problem when I had Hydra.

My AEM is the V1 but with Revision C, so apparently the crank sensor issue was suppose to be fixed in this revision, so I doubt that's it.

Any help, suggestions, insights are welcome, I'd like to get this one fixed.
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Old 02-13-2012, 02:00 PM   #2
TheBoz
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When you are cranking how long does it take the ems to show stat sync = ready/on. If your car takes a long time for stat sync to turn on, then your car will not fire or inject fuel until it see stat sync on.

Outside of that, it sounds like you need to tune your start up tables. If you want some help hit me up on the AEM Forums "TheBoz2"
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Old 02-14-2012, 11:54 AM   #3
bbong
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBoz View Post
When you are cranking how long does it take the ems to show stat sync = ready/on. If your car takes a long time for stat sync to turn on, then your car will not fire or inject fuel until it see stat sync on.

Outside of that, it sounds like you need to tune your start up tables. If you want some help hit me up on the AEM Forums "TheBoz2"

Appreciate your help, I think what you did yesterday with my car has not been done ever by anyone I took my car to, I know it may sound harsh to some, but damn now my car fires after 3-4 cranks what used to be at least 4+ tries of 5-6sec of cranking on each try before it would even start firing. I'm looking forward to finishing it and making it once again enjoyable car to daily drive.

I will also keep you guys updated on final resolution and what was wrong with the Engine Start and Idle section of EMS.
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Old 02-15-2012, 10:43 AM   #4
bbong
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One thing to note about this was that my Idle would not kick in above 4% throttle, so when Cranking the Engine and when it finally fired, it would never go into idle as my Throttle at that point was well above 7%, so we got this cleared out of the way, now car starts just after 2-4 cranks and gets into idle.
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Old 02-15-2012, 10:56 AM   #5
stretchedk7
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yeah he ^ has helped me several times. hes a beast.
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Old 02-15-2012, 11:00 AM   #6
bbong
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Yup, very knowledgeable guy, he's helping me rebuild my map too, hopefully I can learn to tune this thing myself once we're done.
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Old 02-15-2012, 11:06 AM   #7
stretchedk7
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id be more than happy to help as well. I have learned alot lately. Aem is very nice once your familiar with it.
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Old 02-15-2012, 12:52 PM   #8
bbong
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I really appreciate all your help, should have come out here before, and not struggle with this thing for so long.
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Old 02-15-2012, 01:09 PM   #9
stretchedk7
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yeah theres only a few ppl really that post on the aem in nasion even though im sure alot of ppl have them.

im super happy with mine. just need to improve cold start with e 85 and figure out why i have a lean spot and super low throttle
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Old 02-18-2012, 10:16 PM   #10
Kevin VanCleave
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Hi,
I'm new to the Subaru platform, but I have used the AEM EMS in several of my cars. As, stated above the if the the stat/sync does not go true the car will never start. It was a total nightmare on my Nissan until I replaced the trigger wheel. I do agree with the statement that it would seem you need some further calibration of your Crank Injector Time table and your Warm Up Enrichment table. What helped me when I calibrated Crank Injector Time table was to crack the the throttle a bit (not to the extent of putting it into clean out) to see if it would allow for a quicker start. If the added throttle helped, I took out fuel, if it made it worse I added fuel.



This is what mine looked like for a 2000cc engine with 850cc/min injectors, it worked well keeping in mind that I live in central Florida.
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Old 02-19-2012, 12:56 AM   #11
TheBoz
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Thanks for the kind words above, I am just trying to help out where I can. Tuning is easy once you can wrap your head around it.

There are quite a few things that play into a car starting and idling. Lots of variables. One of the first steps is to get your AFR's at idle dialed in for your fuel. Make sure they are in the ~14.8 on gas and 14.8-15.2 on E85. Next if you have O2 Feedback make sure that your correction is within ~2%+/- in most weather conditions. If you afr correction changes a lot in different weather conditions your AIT correction has not been setup correctly.

After you have a nice stable AFR at idle you can really focus on the starts. On Gas your car should fire in almost every condition.

You should start with your Initial Crank Pulse table at zero across the board. You need to get your Crank Injector Time Table dialed in first. You need to get your Warm/Hot starts dialed in. After that you can work on your cold starts. The cold starts really just need adjustments to the Initial Crank Pulse table.

Another big thing to help with starts is the Crank Advance, under Engine Start. This will assign a fixed Ignition Timing value when you are cranking, and before you are in run mode.

Fast Starts - Adjust "Initial Crank Pulse"
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Old 02-19-2012, 01:03 AM   #12
TheBoz
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Here are some threads to help people out.

General Tuning
http://forum.aempower.com/forum/inde...c,24045.0.html

E85 Cold Start
http://forums.evolutionm.net/aem-ems...libration.html
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Old 02-19-2012, 01:49 AM   #13
Kevin VanCleave
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Wow, you have just altered the way I will tune start up from here on out. I always had an intermittent what I called luke warm restart issue. After looking at the axes of the Initial Crank Pulse I bet that was the culprit. I simply set up the Crank Injector Time table and never set up the Initial Crank Pulse.


Thanks Boz
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Old 02-19-2012, 02:05 AM   #14
TheBoz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin VanCleave View Post
Wow, you have just altered the way I will tune start up from here on out. I always had an intermittent what I called luke warm restart issue. After looking at the axes of the Initial Crank Pulse I bet that was the culprit. I simply set up the Crank Injector Time table and never set up the Initial Crank Pulse.


Thanks Boz
With the warm start after the car has been running it is very likley that your AIT sensor has become heat soaked. This is very common on Speed Density. Now it will not affect you unless you have your AIT Correction table dialed in. So when you fire yoru car, it thinks the AIT is 140* when it is really only 85*, and your car will be running an AIT Correction of -xx% based on your AIT Correction table. A way that I have worked around that is with the Start Extra vs Temp table. Up in the 122+* range be sure to add fuel so that your AFR will be in the 13's, this way the 10-15s it takes for your AIT sensor to get to the real AIT you will just run a little rich, but at least your car will start and say running.

Boz
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Old 11-10-2012, 03:38 PM   #15
Irv Weissmanhowerton
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Has anyone heard of the issues tuning the aem v1 ecu using larger cams and a bit of avcs (heads clayed to check p to v)? I recently bought a few used v1 boxes for our cars and now am hearing alot of problems, Is there a way around this?


-Crystal_Imprezav
AVCS with the AEM v1 is erratic and must be calibrated and monitored religiously. Don't try and get greedy with AVCS on high lift cams with the v1 or you will end up with bent valves.

- Bad cam signals for larger cams? http://www.igotasti.com/vBforum/show...ce-review-quot

-a few different answers, to re-locate it off the metal floor? http://forum.aempower.com/forum/index.php?topic=26722.0
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Old 11-10-2012, 05:40 PM   #16
Paul
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Who are you going have tune these AEMs?? How do they feel about it?

I remember yrs ago Jr had some issues (breaking up, ect) with the AEMs but he was able to solve it. Pretty sure his was the cam sensors or something like that where he had to move them around alil and do some slight mods(shave down the sensor)

Id have Crystal explain what he means by erratic cause if you have the heads clayed you should know how much AVCS you can run.

What makes you wanna run this ECU in the first place? If you want to run AVCS and have a stock like driving car I'd get a AP and run speed density if needed. Id only run a AEM EMS with with a high HP build with big cams.....which obviously would be non-avcs.

Last edited by Paul; 11-10-2012 at 05:46 PM.
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Old 11-10-2012, 07:42 PM   #17
Irv Weissmanhowerton
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Ive had the ap and tactrix before, the cars are all high 450-600whp cars, all with ported heads +1 valves and large 272-280 cams

tuner will be phatbotti

id like to use the standalone as long as there isn't these tuning issues some people are having, I understand some try and give up pretty quick and for most things there must be a way around it by now, alot of people are drag'ers and dont care nor use avcs with that type of setup, 2 of 3 of our setups are road race 30-35r cars
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Old 11-10-2012, 08:02 PM   #18
Paul
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Does Phatbotti have alot of experience with AEM or even stand-alones?

If thats your tuner and 450-600 is your goal Id switch back to AP or go with whatever they recommend/feel comfortable doing for your setup. Lots of people have great success running the AP w/ speed density in that hp range
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Old 11-10-2012, 10:05 PM   #19
Irv Weissmanhowerton
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No, but Ron is a friend and I trust him. We work together at our shop here in anaheim.

I got the 3 used v1 boxes for the different applications recently, used for 500 a piece was the reason why I wanted to use them over the current tactrix cable,

Im running e85 daily with planning on running really large injectors, wouldn't it be a bit nicer on tuning with the aem ecu over the ap?
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Old 11-11-2012, 10:01 AM   #20
Paul
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irv Weissmanhowerton View Post
I got the 3 used v1 boxes for the different applications recently, used for 500 a piece was the reason why I wanted to use them over the current tactrix cable,
Did you wonder why the AEMs were being sold for so cheap?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Irv Weissmanhowerton View Post
Im running e85 daily with planning on running really large injectors, wouldn't it be a bit nicer on tuning with the aem ecu over the ap?
I'd say it would only be "nicer" if the Ron had experience with that EM and if he said he'd prefer the standalone vs AP for your setup/needs.

There's been more then a couple people in PPB running ID2000s on pump and E85 with the AP with good results
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Old 11-25-2013, 11:12 PM   #21
Haywood
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Bump from the dead. It appears that I'm having the same issue with the car I just bought. I've never dealt with making data changes, or even an ems.
My car is having issues with turning over, car isn't getting enough fuel. The only way I can work around it currently to get it to start when its cold is to plug in the stock ecu, warm up the engine and get some fuel in it (and it runs completely awful when I do this) then turn it off and plug my ems back in then it'll start up, but still idle rough until its warm.

Heres my current setup. V7 EJ207
Wiseco Pistons .020 over
Eagle rods
8 blade HX 40 .63 a/r v-band outlet
TiAL .044mm external w/g
Perrin rotated uppipe
Invidia catback
Halman MBC
DW 850'S
Walbro 255
Turbo XS BOV vta
Omni Power 3 bar map sensor
AEM EMS series 1 black box

car is tuned on speed density, pushing 25psi.
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