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Old 04-19-2012, 08:46 PM   #1
GreenMarine
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Default Turbo selection advice for built motor (Block: EJ22t / Heads: EJ207 STi Ver.7)

Those of you that are "turbo savvy", offer your opinions. But please provide references when possible. I try to take "facts" on forums with a grain of salt unless they have references to back up certian claims, etc.

Anyway, I am currently having an engine built for my STi by TurboTime in Cary, NC...

The engine will be as follows:
- EJ22t block
* Manley H-beam rods
* Manley pistons (9.8 static C/R)
* Cosworth high volume oil pump
* Moroso Aluminum Oil Pan

- EJ207 heads - (Stock 06 STi intake manifold & fuel rails)
* Crower Stg. 2 cams
* Manley Beehive Springs & Ti retainers

Planning on a nice smooth power delivery all the way to redline (not looking for a big "hit" of torque but rather very linear "ever increasing" powerband). Probably will never see more than 400whp (realistically probably closer to about 380whp). Looking to have atleast a few maps tuned into the ECU. One "mild boost" street map for 93. A more agressive map on 93. And a track map tuned for either a 50/50 mix of 93 and E85 or 100% E85 (haven't decided which way to go with this yet - still learning about the workings of E85 and possibly mixing fuel)...

The car is going to be used as a weekend play toy and HPDE track days. Ultimately I want to compete in One Lap of America with it...

Planning on staying stock location turbo, TMIC, side-feed, etc...

So the main question is, what turbo would be the best stock location turbo to meet my power delivery desires?

Turbotime has recommended I look into the GTX2867r, the GTX3071r and the GT3076r... Honestly I am learning and ultimately I will probably go with what Turbotime says. But I am wondering what the rest of the Engine Build forum here thinks and why...

Give me something to read guys I love learning!!

--------------------------------------------------------------

EDIT: Alittle something I found...

Turbo Selection Calculator

Last edited by GreenMarine; 05-16-2012 at 04:42 PM.
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Old 04-20-2012, 01:25 AM   #2
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you should either run 92 or straight E85. quit wasting time mixing

That power goal.. 20Gish size. you should look into a FMIC, tmic's get hot.

Last edited by FuJi K; 04-20-2012 at 03:28 AM.
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Old 04-20-2012, 03:01 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FuJi K
you should either run 92 or straight E85. quit wasting time mixing

That power goal.. 20Gish size. you should look into a FMIC, tmic's get hot.
I also don't have the luxury of draining the fuel tank every time I switch fuels (or access to enough E85 stations). However the reason I elected to do a 50/50 mix for track use is because I'll still get the benefits of a near (or just over) 100 octane fuel when I run the 50/50 map (and fuel), but can easily switch back to straight 93 map for the drive home (or wherever)... Plus all stations I know about that sell E85 also sell 93, so mixing isn't that hard (6 gallons of one and 6 gallons of the other)...

As far as flow comparison, how similar are the GTX3076r and the 20g?? My car had a 20g on it when I first bought it and I remember that think hitting VERY HARD and then falling off as the revs built (that engine was a to monster though - and 50k miles later it is showing its age. But not bad for a stock block and stock internals)...

The idea I have with this turbo selection is that I'd like to have it spun up at or before 4,000rpm with very smooth power delivery all the way to redline. Not a big fan of frantic torque monster engines that have an explosion of torque and then fall off in the upper end... My thoughts were that a relatively large turbo would deliver the goods while using a lower pressure (and cooler intake temp) than a smaller turbo... And like I said, stock location...
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Old 04-20-2012, 03:11 PM   #4
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at least a 3076 if you're staying stock location
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Old 04-20-2012, 03:18 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by B.R.E.D View Post
I've run a EJ22T and a EJ22T with a STI crank, both with Version 7 built heads. I ran both of them with a GTX3076R and was very happy with both. From what I have seen there is nothing to gain in spool by going to a GTX3071 and I don't think a 2876 is going to make the power you are looking for.

Matt
Oh, one more thing Matt. What sort of highway mileage did you get on your stock crank EJ22 with the 3076? I've heard about larger turbo's having better MPG on the highway but have never seen it. Hell when I first got my STi it was a track monster with a 20g on it. The damn thing got about 14-16mpg on the highway, and even worse in town!! Absolutely terrible... That was cruising at 70mph with minimal excursions into positive boost...

Quote:
Originally Posted by arope102 View Post
at least a 3076 if you're staying stock location
Thanks for the input ... Maybe I should have started a poll in this thread...
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Old 04-20-2012, 01:36 AM   #6
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Go with the turbo that makes the 400 "EASY" forget turbo lag over engine failure.... And run E85. You will need to run modded STI 550 injedtors to get the 499 whp with the EJ22 rails.
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Old 04-20-2012, 01:40 AM   #7
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I've run a EJ22T and a EJ22T with a STI crank, both with Version 7 built heads. I ran both of them with a GTX3076R and was very happy with both. From what I have seen there is nothing to gain in spool by going to a GTX3071 and I don't think a 2876 is going to make the power you are looking for.

Matt
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Old 04-20-2012, 02:49 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by B.R.E.D
I've run a EJ22T and a EJ22T with a STI crank, both with Version 7 built heads. I ran both of them with a GTX3076R and was very happy with both. From what I have seen there is nothing to gain in spool by going to a GTX3071 and I don't think a 2876 is going to make the power you are looking for.

Matt
Thanks Matt for the information. I was thinking a 3076 as well, but really wasn't sure. Can you tell me about driving characteristics of the 2067 on the stock crank EJ22?

Fuji, I am staying with a top mount for a few reasons. One being I do not like having 1/2 mile of plumbing running through the engine bay. I don't like the fact that a good portion of FMIC's require removing / cutting the front bumper support beam (undoubtedly affecting safety and possibly chassis rigidity to some degree)... I like the short plumbing associated with the TMIC. I like stock location components (makes changing configuration cheaper and easier). And I have seen a good number of people running stock location components that have achieved well over my power goals - thus rendering a rotated set-up unnecessary for my needs.
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Old 04-29-2012, 08:29 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenMarine View Post
Thanks Matt for the information. I was thinking a 3076 as well, but really wasn't sure. Can you tell me about driving characteristics of the 2067 on the stock crank EJ22?

Fuji, I am staying with a top mount for a few reasons. One being I do not like having 1/2 mile of plumbing running through the engine bay. I don't like the fact that a good portion of FMIC's require removing / cutting the front bumper support beam (undoubtedly affecting safety and possibly chassis rigidity to some degree)... I like the short plumbing associated with the TMIC. I like stock location components (makes changing configuration cheaper and easier). And I have seen a good number of people running stock location components that have achieved well over my power goals - thus rendering a rotated set-up unnecessary for my needs.

Have you considered an AWIC setup? Just a thought.

The initial cost of going rotated is steep, I agree, but if you're doing the labor yourself I'd suggest looking into going rotated just for ease of install and maintenance.

Good luck!
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Old 04-20-2012, 06:14 PM   #10
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gtx3071
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Old 04-20-2012, 08:01 PM   #11
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I've never had a stock location 3076 only rotated setups.

Gas mileage on my current setup is 21-22mpg highway, I could probably squeeze a little more out of it if I got the tune nailed down.

I just build a 2.5 car for a customer with a DOM 1.5, I think it would be a great turbo on that setup as well.
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Old 04-20-2012, 09:16 PM   #12
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So the GTX3071 and the GTX3076... What is the main difference there? I know there's probably some measurement difference in there (blah blah blaaaa)...

What I really want to understand is the difference a 3071 vs a 3076 would do for me...
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Old 04-23-2012, 02:42 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenMarine View Post
So the GTX3071 and the GTX3076... What is the main difference there? I know there's probably some measurement difference in there (blah blah blaaaa)...

What I really want to understand is the difference a 3071 vs a 3076 would do for me...
The older style GT3071R (not the new billet counterpart GTX) had a smaller turbine wheel than the newer GTX series (56.5 vs. 60mm). This is why you will find some people who say the GT3071R was not a stellar performer as the smaller turbine wheel and the EJ did not play well together.

The newer GTX (both 3071 and 3076) use the larger 60 mm turbine and seem to work just fine in most applications. In a perfect world maybe we could get the 68 mm turbine wheel in there with the 3076 compressor wheel - I bet that would be a GREAT turbo for the EJ's!

Comp wheel if memory serves me right (exducer) is 71 and 76 mm respectively... a coincidence!

Whomever said the 3076R is a "mismatched turbo" it happens to be the original GT30R designation from Garrett. I may have misunderstood what you were trying to say however.

- Mike Huml
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Old 04-23-2012, 06:35 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Built Industries View Post
The newer GTX (both 3071 and 3076) use the larger 60 mm turbine and seem to work just fine in most applications. In a perfect world maybe we could get the 68 mm turbine wheel in there with the 3076 compressor wheel - I bet that would be a GREAT turbo for the EJ's!
Uh... you know the GTX3576 (GT35 meaning 68mm turbine) has been available for months now right?
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Old 04-23-2012, 08:55 PM   #15
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Uh... you know the GTX3576 (GT35 meaning 68mm turbine) has been available for months now right?
Someone is paying attention to my sneakyness....
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Old 04-20-2012, 09:24 PM   #16
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The GTX3076 is a mismatched turbo.. personally, I would look at the GTX3071, or the GTX3576. It just depends on how much power you're wanting to make. I'm currently considering ATPs offerings of both those turbos and the FP Red 76hta, which is kinda in the middle of the two.
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Old 04-20-2012, 09:46 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MainFrame View Post
The GTX3076 is a mismatched turbo.. personally, I would look at the GTX3071, or the GTX3576. It just depends on how much power you're wanting to make. I'm currently considering ATPs offerings of both those turbos and the FP Red 76hta, which is kinda in the middle of the two.
Its funny because I see people say this all the time on this forum and its just not good info.

I'm headed out the door to dinner so Ill keep it short. For his application the GTX3076 in rotated form is a awesome turbo. The GTX3071 just hasn't performed like it should.
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Old 04-20-2012, 10:22 PM   #18
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They are just regurgitating what they heard from MPS. It may be true, but do most of these folks have the data to support it as MPS does? Doubt it...

Sounds like something around the 50lb per minute is what you are looking for. Big hotside so you get decent flow at topend. FOr you I guess that means a 10cm as you are stuck on this stock location idea. I have seen the Blouch Dom 3 make 400 whp easy on a low reading mustang (c16)...that was an 05 STI with a built 2.5/ stock heads tho. I have also seen the ATP 3076 makes around 370-380 on the same low reading mustang with 104 on a similarly built 05 STI.

You say 380-400, but what dyno is this being tuned on? Either way I would say 30r or old school FP green size, 49 to 52 ppm with a big hotside. Of course half the battle is choosing the right mods to support the turbo, such as a quality equal length header and a FRONT MOUNT INTERCOOLER as you intend on track use, and that TMIC WILL heatsoak.

Sure you may hit your WHP mark on the TMIC on the dyno, but after 10 laps on the track it will be heatsoaked so bad you will be pulling timing like crazy. OR your tuner, if he is any good, will heatsoak the **** out of it so that he tunes the car appropriately for your intended use. End result: quite a bit less reliable power than if you had gone with a FMIC. I too was against the idea originally, but now that I have one and have experienced how much less hassle it is, I am a firm believer. Why else would an Evo have them stock?

Last edited by aboothman; 04-20-2012 at 10:28 PM.
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Old 04-20-2012, 10:23 PM   #19
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Interesting. From what I've seen the GTX3071 performs considerably better than the GT3071 (GT3076 power with better spool), but the GTX3076 only performs marginally better than the old GT3076. Of course it's hard to find much solid info on the GTX3576 as of yet.

I'm no expert though, so I believe you. I take what I've heard with a grain of salt and look for dyno charts to get a better feel for how they are actually performing (which still isn't the best comparison).



This is about all I have to base that statement on..

GTX3576 spooling basically just as quick as the GTX3076

..and the article here about the release of the GTX3576

Last edited by MainFrame; 04-21-2012 at 03:11 PM.
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Old 04-23-2012, 02:17 PM   #20
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Thanks for the addition MainFrame!
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Old 04-23-2012, 02:26 PM   #21
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I just built my motor and I went threw the same questions it took me forever to figure out what it was I was looking for, wen all was said and done I went with a stock location amr t60r turbo it's tuned to about 25 psi and I reach full boost at about 3.5 rmp.... I dyno at around 450 and I live my set up it has great response, spools fast and hits pretty aggressively, I have a lot of other supporting mods and am planning on trying for over 500 to the wheels but for now it's exactly what I wanted when I pictured my car finished!
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Old 04-23-2012, 02:46 PM   #22
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So it sounds like the GTX3076r is the one to go with? Is the t60r a similar turbo "evilsti06"?
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Old 04-23-2012, 06:40 PM   #23
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So it sounds like the GTX3076r is the one to go with? Is the t60r a similar turbo "evilsti06"?
For your goals, I'd lean towards a GTX3071 or an old school GT3076. They both do around 57 lbs/min, so they will hit your power target while giving you the widest powerband.

A GTX3076 would be too big IMO.
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Old 04-23-2012, 07:17 PM   #24
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If you're looking for a smooth power curve do the FP Green HTA. Garret turbos are all or nothing and have that hit when full boost comes on. My friend has a rotated GT3076R .82 and loves how my Green has great partial boost and smooth power. But when he floors it in his, the "hit" up top does feel nice. I made 361/362 at 19psi and 420/400 at 22 psi.
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Old 04-28-2012, 08:07 PM   #25
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Yes similar in size 60 lb/min just cheaper but still quality name brand
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