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Old 05-07-2012, 11:08 PM   #1
REED FLEMMMMING
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K I'm bringing this one over here from legacy central. Gonna cut and paste. I'm kinda wondering where to head next with this. Got first autox this sunday eh.


Hey guys got some injector issues.
So the issue, doing the 550 sti swap into the legacy rails for the rob tune. Replaced the o-rings and 3 out of 4 injectors are gushing somehow causing the engine to hydrolock upon start up. Tonite I'll be confirming where they are leaking from by mounting them on a spare rail and lines off the intake.
Now I'm a senior tech at a subaru dealership, please no hate. I understand, but I got a good rep partly cause I always consider myself to be a student.

I've done quite a few injector jobs and never have I seen 3 injectors leaking. Here's the questions:
-could the fpr be jammed causing abnormally high fuel pressure? but it was running fine prior to the swap
-I bought these used and I'm wondering if the clown I bought them off maxed them out, would that cause them to stay open?
-is there anyway I installed them wrong, Would the caps be pushing on the pintle caps causing them to stay open

Thx for any input, Just wanna get this thing going smoothly without to much headache. And No I don't want to get them flow tested immediately......I just bought some rpf1's and the funds are hurting eh



Hi,
Please clarify - What engine and any mods are you/we dealing with? With the Rob Tune (Way to go!) this is an SS/TW swapping in the EJ20 ECU, I'd guess.

I read the issue is w/leaking and too much fuel...but just to double-check:

The 550's must be installed in the '92-94 NA SOHC rails. If you've got the correct rails, did you get the correct O-rings? This LINK shows there are only 2 per injector.

And here's pic of the O-rings installed:


If you check the resistance on the injectors, they should be 10-12 OHMs? You probably have the FSM w/the correct #'s.

TD
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Old 05-07-2012, 11:09 PM   #2
REED FLEMMMMING
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ej22t, 1993 legacy turbo, 5mt
tmic, tdo4, straight pipe, stock boost
sti suspension swap and a bunch of other junk

I can't confirm the fuel rails were out of a 92-94 legacy. We have a shed with a bunch of old engines in them. The rails came off a ej22 sohc with the old style valve covers. The 550 cc injectors fit very well into the rails and looked very similar to the injectors I pulled out of them.

That picture is the same as the injectors I have. And thx for answering an unmentioned question. The parts look up was a little vague with the o-rings. Was sure there was only 2 but thx for the confirmation. I ended up going through the box of o-rings and installed the two that fit best. The injectors are not leaking externally just internally so the bottom o-ring could still be a culprit. The part number for the o-ring installed on the bottom #16698AA080.


K checked the resistance, every injector is roughly 10.2-10.4 ohms. Made a cool tool to check resistances easier. Just cut off an injector plug, busted the tab off and crimped some spade connectors on the end. Real easy to grab with the gator clips and the plug just slides right on.

Anyways, hooked up the rails with injectors to a set of fuel lines.






Absolutely no leaking after cycling the ignition to on about a dozen times. Wondering if the ecu is telling the injectors to go wide open on start up? Gonna check voltage and possibly duty cycle to the harness on start up.

wtf



with the key out of the ignition I got 12v going to the injectors, that can't be normal

ya confirmed all 4 injectors have battery voltage going to them with the key out of the ignition

k this is bizarre, looked it up injectors are supposed to have 12 volts all the time. Connected each injector to the harness and turned vehicle on. Injectors let no fuel through. Turned vehicle over and each injector sprayed normally.....gonna install again and see what happens.

Installed and it hydrolocks again, wtf. Any help would be appreciated

Last edited by rob; 05-08-2012 at 12:31 PM. Reason: Merging posts
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Old 05-08-2012, 12:44 AM   #3
eg33GC
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instead of posting a thousand times in a row, consolidate them.

Do they piss fuel out the top of the injector/rail?
Did you use petroleum jelly when installing them?
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Old 05-08-2012, 12:52 AM   #4
REED FLEMMMMING
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ya ok, was just typing as I go.

No they don't piss out of the top of the rail. The only place fuel comes out of is the tip of the injector like it's supposed to. Where the injector pokes out of the fuel rail into the intake is dry too. Where the cap is screwed down to hold the injector is also dry. Both o-rings are sealing properly.

Yes I used petroleum jelly when installing them.

The injector is sealing and spraying good when mounted to a stock fuel line out of the intake. Two pics up shows how I hooked it up. The problem is as soon as I mount the injector/fuel rail into the intake, turn it over and it floods the cylinder, soaks the spark plug and creates a hydrolock and the engine cannot be turned over by the starter.

definitely stumped....not too frustrated yet....this is weird
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Old 05-08-2012, 03:14 AM   #5
eg33GC
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unplug all the injectors and prime the fuel pump.
personally I use dohc phase 1 rails so I can't comment for sure on phase1 sohc rails.

if you get fuel flooding upon pump priming, this tells you:
1. your rails are improper
2. your injector(s) are stuck in the open position. sidefeeds like to do this a LOT.
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Old 05-08-2012, 03:41 AM   #6
REED FLEMMMMING
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Ya man those were my first two thoughts. I thought the rails or the o-rings were wrong causing major flooding into the cylinder.
The other suspicion was the injectors were faulty. The guy I bought the injectors also had a vf39 for sale. I thought possibly he upgraded his turbo first and fooled around with tuning before upgrading his injectors causing the stock injectors to be maxed out (100%+ duty cycle) damaging them to stay in the open position. I tested there resistance and I got 10.2-10.4 ohms across.

When I had the rails hooked up to the fuel lines on top of the newspaper (pic in previous post). I primed the fuel pump about a dozen times with the injectors jumper wired to the stock harness.
There wasn't any leaking from any of the fuel injectors while priming. I turned the car over for about 1-2 secs and each each injector sprayed into the air turning off and on like they should. Once again no leaking or continuous spray. All looks good.

Then I install the rails/injectors back onto the motor and I hydro-lock. I also got a backfire through the intake. Pull the plugs and there soaked. Engine won't turn over with plugs installed.

Ok sorry I'm repeating myself, I do this with tough diagnostics. I have one more suspicion I'm considering. While engaging the starter and turning over the motor with the injectors hooked up on the newspaper it seemed like they were spraying too often.
It looked like the injectors were firing like a waste spark system. Once every 360 degree rotation of the crank instead of once every 720 degrees. Instead of firing once every four strokes they looked like they were firing once every two strokes. I counted roughly 3-4 sprays for 1-2 secs of starter cranking. Yes everything was covered in gas

I think tomorrow I'm gonna bring a timing light home and some noid lights. It's the only thing that makes sense right now.
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Old 05-08-2012, 12:27 PM   #7
rob
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From what I have observed, on startup the injectors do fire in batch mode (which I think could be related to persistent cold start issues we see on the ej20g, but that is a different topic for a different day). So that is normal behavior.

Can you read the part numbers on your rails?

-Rob

Last edited by rob; 05-08-2012 at 12:32 PM.
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Old 05-08-2012, 03:52 PM   #8
REED FLEMMMMING
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The left side part number is #17523AA220, they're installed so the right side is buried. It's a matching set off the same intake though. Can get it tonight when I'm off work.

here's a pic I took before installing them. The caps were flush and tight upon installation and like I mentioned earlier there was absolutely no leaking when the rails were hooked up externally and primed multiple times.

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Old 05-08-2012, 08:07 PM   #9
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Hmm, a quick search on the part number points to them coming from the 2.2l. I can't explain why they don't leak out of the car, but it doesn't sound like you have the right rails.


-Rob
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Old 05-08-2012, 08:11 PM   #10
REED FLEMMMMING
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K I'm bringing some tools home tonight to do some other checks. The rails will probably come out again and I'll take some good close up pics
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Old 05-08-2012, 11:13 PM   #11
REED FLEMMMMING
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here's another one. I bought my maf at a wrecker, it's the green label jecs. If it's wacked could it be telling the ecu to overfuel on start up. I can hook up the car to an ssm what should my start up readings be from the maf?

Also hooked up the timing light and noid light. They're firing 1:1. Gonna see what the ssm says

Last edited by REED FLEMMMMING; 05-09-2012 at 12:01 AM.
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Old 05-09-2012, 12:25 AM   #12
REED FLEMMMMING
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Hey Rob, she purrs!!
Ya went to work and grabbed a spare maf and the ssm. The ssm won't communicate with the ecm but changed the maf and it fired right up. Beware of junkyard parts, gonna have a chat with those guys.....

Also for reference when I hooked up the timing light and the noid light while turning it over they flashed 1 to 1. So with the waste spark system I guess you could say the injectors fire twice for every four strokes.
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Old 05-09-2012, 10:29 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by REED FLEMMMMING View Post
Also for reference when I hooked up the timing light and the noid light while turning it over they flashed 1 to 1. So with the waste spark system I guess you could say the injectors fire twice for every four strokes.
I'm sure it's just a typo, but the spark plugs fire twice per 4 strokes (or once per crank rev).

So, replacing the MAF fixed your injector issue?

We made custom fuel rails for an old FSAE car back in college, and jury rigged the rail to fit. This ended up putting too much pressure on the injector causing it to stick open, filling the chamber with fuel. Adjusted the rail, and it was all good. I don't know anything about Subaru fuel rails and what fits what or if this even a possibility, but it IS possible to cause an injector to stick open if the fuel rail is clamped too hard on it.
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Old 05-10-2012, 02:37 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by REED FLEMMMMING View Post
Hey Rob, she purrs!!
Ya went to work and grabbed a spare maf and the ssm. The ssm won't communicate with the ecm but changed the maf and it fired right up. Beware of junkyard parts, gonna have a chat with those guys.....

Also for reference when I hooked up the timing light and the noid light while turning it over they flashed 1 to 1. So with the waste spark system I guess you could say the injectors fire twice for every four strokes.
Great news. Yes I forgot to mention that the I mess with the SSM communication a bit so as is, it won't work.

-Rob
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Old 05-12-2012, 12:22 AM   #15
REED FLEMMMMING
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Hmm, told the boss and he mentioned that quite often back in the day that scan tool wouldn't communicate if the batteries were low. Do you know if the newer ssm will work? If not, I should probably search, but is there something available that I could hook up for data display?
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