Why Is My Car Pulling Timing?

[criscross79]

Question: What are the possible mechanical reason my car is pulling timing?

Car: 2002 WRX w/4EAT and 160,000 miles

Background: I have had an OTS Stage II map on my car for the past 5 years. When I first flashed it, I did some logs and everything was fine. Recently I started logging it again just to check it and the car was pulling timing from about 4000 RPM. IAM is also reading very low. I changed to some thicker gaskets on the uppipe, thinking that I might have a boost leak. but it was still pulling timing. I also recently began having issues with my Factory Boost Controller, so I replaced it with the Grimspeed BCS and flashed a new OTS map that was specifically for the Grimspeed BCS. It's still pulling timing and IAM dropped from 15 when I started the car to 0 when I did my run.

The car seems to be running pretty good though. I'm not hearing any pinging or ticking, it pulls hard and smooth.

Here is a log I took today.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...HdESksySEZiQ1E

[Acrdys]

Check MAF

[criscross79]

Originally Posted by Acrdys

Check MAF

I have tried cleaning it, but beyond that I haven't done anything. How can I test it?

[Acrdys]

For me, the o-ring that seals it was cracked causing a leak @ high rpm. Check it for leaks. Borrow another fellow subie's MAf and test it on your car. See if problem goes away.

[BlazeRex]

Yikes! It looks to me to be a post MAF leak or boost leak. How does the inlet look where it connects to the turbo?

[criscross79]

Originally Posted by BlazeRex

Yikes! It looks to me to be a post MAF leak or boost leak. How does the inlet look where it connects to the turbo?

Oh, I forgot to mention that. I replaced the stock intake hose because of a hole in the rubber part that connected to the turbo with an aftermarket one. The car had better throttle and boost response, but was still pulling timing. Earlier today I double checked all the hose clamps to make sure everything was tight and everything still looked good.

One other thing I forgot to mention was, awhile back I accidently stripped out one of the bolt holes that holds the BOV to the intercooler. I re-tapped the hole, but I had to go with a bigger bolt. The new bigger bolt wouldn't go through the gasket, so I just used liquid gasket. I checked for leaks, and there wasn't any. I haven't checked for leaks since then though.

[wrx3r]

You will hear a boost leak from the bpv, sounds like you ran over a pack of squirrel

[criscross79]

Originally Posted by wrx3r

You will hear a boost leak from the bpv, sounds like you ran over a pack of squirrel

lol ...no, I don't hear anything like that

[illmatic]

Try replacing your crank position sensor.

[Haelan]

Originally Posted by illmatic

Try replacing your crank position sensor.

He'd have stumbling and phantom misfires if the CPS was dirty or bad. These rarely go out--it can be pulled and the metal shavings cleaned from the magnet.

[criscross79]

Ok .. as requested, here is the new log with cooler (76 degrees) air. I also reset the ecu prior to the run and did the quick-learn trick.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...203YWlCNXJsYlE

[BlazeRex]

How are you resetting the ECU? Through RR or pulling the battery terminal? Also, you need FLKC, FBKC, and IAM in your logs.

I would really like you to pull a learning view image for us.

If it ran better before, why don't you get a new 2 port solenoid and flash the old map back?

[criscross79]

Originally Posted by BlazeRex

How are you resetting the ECU? Through RR or pulling the battery terminal? Also, you need FLKC, FBKC, and IAM in your logs.

I would really like you to pull a learning view image for us.

If it ran better before, why don't you get a new 2 port solenoid and flash the old map back?

I am re-setting the ECU through RomRaider. I'll do a battery reset tonight. I'll also install Learning View and get a screenshot of that for you.

I think that when I put the new 3 Port EBCS on, it just amplified the issues I am having with the car. I'm hoping that if I can get this all sorted out it will work better.

[philly15]

are you running a stock intake system? anything other than a cobb short ram could cause issues

[criscross79]

OK, so I inspected and cleaned the MAF, took out the Crank Position Sensor, and reset the ECU. I took it for another spin and I have the log below.

I didn't see anything really on the MAF, it was a little dirty, but not that bad. I did notice a small crack on the thin frame that goes around the brown bulb part, but otherwise, the rubber o-ring was fine. The car would also stall as soon as I disconnect the MAF. I'll see if I can find someone who will let me borrow their MAF though.
The CPS was very dirty, but no scratches or dents. I cleaned it up and put it back in. The car seemed to run a bit smoother afterward.

Here is the log I took. I did notice that the car pull timing until after 6000 rpm, which is higher then normal. Usually it starts pulling 1000rpm sooner.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...kZBVEVlOUVfUUE

[criscross79]

Originally Posted by philly15

are you running a stock intake system? anything other than a cobb short ram could cause issues

I'm running the stock box with a Fram Air Hog flat panel filter, minus the scoop under the hood and the silencer.

[Acrdys]

Make sure you reset the ecu too if you make a change/fix something/log

[jaxscuby]

please double check the green connector as well as flash connector.
to make sure you did not leave either on connected.

if not, thats not good..pulling timing means there is knock..

[criscross79]

Originally Posted by jaxscuby

please double check the green connector as well as flash connector.
to make sure you did not leave either on connected.

if not, thats not good..pulling timing means there is knock..

I have all that stuff wired up to a switch. The switch is off, so I'm not running in limp mode. I haven't ever disconnected it all though since I I put the switch in 5 years ago

I'm also not hearing any pinging or knocking from the engine either?

[Bacon117]

You are in San Antonio... It's hot. Are you sure it's not pulling timing due to IAT? Where were you when you data logged 5 years ago?

The ecu could be pulling timing due to knock. High IAT, or low octane fuel, can cause levels of knock that are imperceptible to the naked ear. It's normal operation for this to happen.

[criscross79]

Originally Posted by Bacon117

You are in San Antonio... It's hot. Are you sure it's not pulling timing due to IAT? Where were you when you data logged 5 years ago?

The ecu could be pulling timing due to knock. High IAT, or low octane fuel, can cause levels of knock that are imperceptible to the naked ear. It's normal operation for this to happen.

I was in Massachusetts last time I logged so temps were a bit cooler... I'll try doing a log early in the morning when it is cool out

[Brock31]

How old are the spark plugs?

I'd try lowering the timing by a couple of degrees and seeing if that clears it up. I've had many maps that look good at first, but after a period of time, issues will settle out that need to be dealt with.

[Bacon117]

Why is it a problem that it's pulling spark? This is a normal function. Does your car feel down on power? Is your check engine light on? ALL cars will pull spark at some point. That's why they have knock sensors, and why so much time is spent developing the algorithms to read the knock sensor signals.

[BlazeRex]

Originally Posted by Bacon117

Why is it a problem that it's pulling spark? This is a normal function. Does your car feel down on power? Is your check engine light on? ALL cars will pull spark at some point. That's why they have knock sensors, and why so much time is spent developing the algorithms to read the knock sensor signals.

Not 5.5* at WOT! I mean it could be engine noise, but other things as well... That much knock is problematic.

[Acrdys]

Any updates? reset the ecu and do the ecu learning trick.

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=302047

do a pull and let us know if it still pulls timing.