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Old 10-01-2012, 10:47 AM   #1
AVANTI R5
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Default Ford, GM Team Up to Develop Nine and 10 Speed Transmissions



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Despite beliefs by transmission manufacturer ZF’s president that the race to add transmission gears is close to the limit, General Motors and Ford are teaming up to jointly develop new nine-speed and 10-speed transmissions.

The partnership between two of America’s largest automakers aims to build transmissions to use across their lineups in hopes of maximizing fuel economy. GM is in charge of developing a nine-speed transmission for front-wheel drive applications while Ford is focusing on a 10-speed transmission for rear-wheel drive vehicles such as pickup trucks, SUVs, and performance cars.
Development began earlier this year, but is still currently in the design phase. The automakers are hoping to begin production before 2015 however. Details on the agreement were not announced, but a GM spokesman did confirm that the automakers are in discussions and have signed a memorandum of understanding on the project. A definitive agreement is expected to be announced soon.
It’ll be even more interesting to see if this relationship blossoms to something greater. A manufacturing alliance wouldn’t be entirely out of the question, and could help boost both automakers’ production and development.
[Source: Automotive News]
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Old 10-01-2012, 11:22 AM   #2
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10 speed slush box? Getting the market ready for CVT's
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Old 10-01-2012, 01:27 PM   #3
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"GM shall bear a nine-geared transmission! Not four, or five, or seven, but NINE! ...which he will wield on all wretched customers, customers just like you, sir, there..."

This is getting comically ridiculous.

I'd rather they produce a transmission that is actually robust enough that one doesn't have to worry about it needing to be replaced @~100K miles.
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Old 10-01-2012, 03:56 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HipToBeSquare View Post

"GM shall bear a nine-geared transmission! Not four, or five, or seven, but NINE! ...which he will wield on all wretched customers, customers just like you, sir, there..."

This is getting comically ridiculous.

I'd rather they produce a transmission that is actually robust enough that one doesn't have to worry about it needing to be replaced @~100K miles.


I had no idea that this was a concern.

and this is comically ridiculous why?
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Old 10-01-2012, 04:12 PM   #5
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Old 10-01-2012, 04:14 PM   #6
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9 or 10 gears?

How big of a transmission are we talking about? If it is a FWD transaxle, there is much more limited space.
How big are each of the gear sets?
are they robust enough to not wear out or shed gear teeth after years of use?

How often is this thing going to hunt and peck for the right gear ratio, and how much time spent shifting between 9 or 10 gears?

How narrow is the engine's power band? That is the only major reason for many gear ratios. A wide power band, which the new DI & Turbocharged engines are supposed to have, should require LESS shifting, not more.

How many bands, hydraulic circuits, and moving parts are vulnerable to failure, and trashing the rest of the gearbox? How much is a 9 or 10 gear gearbox going to cost to replace, or have rebuilt?

My family has had all sorts of different brands of cars that have required transmission re-builds. Chrysler, Ford, GM, and Subaru. Hondas are known to have potentially delicate transmissions. CVTs from all brands have reliability issues and seem to have higher repair rates after warranty expiration than automatics or manuals.

I don't trust efforts to introduce more complexity, and more un-proven parts, when they have yet to prove definitively that the transmissions are rock solid.

What brand is known for transmissions that *DON'T* need repairs beyond the regular maintenance fluid change service, and are more than capable of coping with any driving style, and any amount of power than the engines put through it.
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Old 10-01-2012, 08:39 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HipToBeSquare View Post
9 or 10 gears?

How big of a transmission are we talking about? If it is a FWD transaxle, there is much more limited space.
How big are each of the gear sets?
are they robust enough to not wear out or shed gear teeth after years of use?

How often is this thing going to hunt and peck for the right gear ratio, and how much time spent shifting between 9 or 10 gears?

How narrow is the engine's power band? That is the only major reason for many gear ratios. A wide power band, which the new DI & Turbocharged engines are supposed to have, should require LESS shifting, not more.

How many bands, hydraulic circuits, and moving parts are vulnerable to failure, and trashing the rest of the gearbox? How much is a 9 or 10 gear gearbox going to cost to replace, or have rebuilt?

My family has had all sorts of different brands of cars that have required transmission re-builds. Chrysler, Ford, GM, and Subaru. Hondas are known to have potentially delicate transmissions. CVTs from all brands have reliability issues and seem to have higher repair rates after warranty expiration than automatics or manuals.

I don't trust efforts to introduce more complexity, and more un-proven parts, when they have yet to prove definitively that the transmissions are rock solid.

What brand is known for transmissions that *DON'T* need repairs beyond the regular maintenance fluid change service, and are more than capable of coping with any driving style, and any amount of power than the engines put through it.
you should probably get your family driving lessons.

Numbers from AAMCO and other chain transmission repair shops showed a continuous drop in transmission replacement from 1990 onwards. I would take hard facts over anecdotal evidence.
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Old 10-01-2012, 11:48 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HipToBeSquare View Post
9 or 10 gears?
How big of a transmission are we talking about? If it is a FWD transaxle, there is much more limited space.
How big are each of the gear sets?
are they robust enough to not wear out or shed gear teeth after years of use?
I'm sure it's a few Ravigneaux gearsets put together. The 8 speeds out right now are surprisingly more simple than you would expect. It's not like a manual transmission.

Quote:
How often is this thing going to hunt and peck for the right gear ratio, and how much time spent shifting between 9 or 10 gears?
That's a big hurdle for the calibration engineers, but the current crop of 8 speeds don't really have that problem. But at least you won't have the annoying drone found in many CVTs.

Quote:
How narrow is the engine's power band? That is the only major reason for many gear ratios. A wide power band, which the new DI & Turbocharged engines are supposed to have, should require LESS shifting, not more.
You do realize that there are teams of engineers getting paid upper middle class salaries to figure this out? And they won't post the confidential details on a car forum.
Quote:
How many bands, hydraulic circuits, and moving parts are vulnerable to failure, and trashing the rest of the gearbox? How much is a 9 or 10 gear gearbox going to cost to replace, or have rebuilt?
You do realize that modern automatic transmissions don't use bands right? Something could definitely go wrong but as others have pointed out, modern A/Ts last a long time now especially when you don't put thermal stress on them.
Quote:
My family has had all sorts of different brands of cars that have required transmission re-builds. Chrysler, Ford, GM, and Subaru. Hondas are known to have potentially delicate transmissions.
Every manufacturer has a weak link or two in their lineup. Honda has had some good ones but in the late 90s/early 2000s they had some turds.
Quote:
CVTs from all brands have reliability issues and seem to have higher repair rates after warranty expiration than automatics or manuals.
Jatco CVTs have been holding up well (chiefly Nissans, although they are used in other vehicles).

Quote:
I don't trust efforts to introduce more complexity, and more un-proven parts, when they have yet to prove definitively that the transmissions are rock solid.
That's what durability testing is for. It doesn't catch everything though. The complexity is there due to customer demands for improved fuel economy and acceleration, plus tightening government standards. That's why powertrains have been changing so fast lately.

Quote:
What brand is known for transmissions that *DON'T* need repairs beyond the regular maintenance fluid change service, and are more than capable of coping with any driving style, and any amount of power than the engines put through it.
It's hard to say for cars that have been around for only a few years, but my '99 Corolla with 4 speed AT has 222300 miles on it currently. Off the top of my head I think Aisin makes it but I'm not sure.
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Old 10-03-2012, 01:59 PM   #9
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Mine goes to 11..................

Honestly GM makes some great transmissions. My family has a few of them and they all did over 200K with standard maintenance.

I don't see how you could tow with a CVT. That must be where they are going to apply this. Also, I wonder if they will use same Allison design in the units.

Peace,

Greg
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Old 10-04-2012, 02:22 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arghx7 View Post
I'm sure it's a few Ravigneaux gearsets put together. The 8 speeds out right now are surprisingly more simple than you would expect. It's not like a manual transmission.



That's a big hurdle for the calibration engineers, but the current crop of 8 speeds don't really have that problem. But at least you won't have the annoying drone found in many CVTs.



You do realize that there are teams of engineers getting paid upper middle class salaries to figure this out? And they won't post the confidential details on a car forum.


You do realize that modern automatic transmissions don't use bands right? Something could definitely go wrong but as others have pointed out, modern A/Ts last a long time now especially when you don't put thermal stress on them.


Every manufacturer has a weak link or two in their lineup. Honda has had some good ones but in the late 90s/early 2000s they had some turds.


Jatco CVTs have been holding up well (chiefly Nissans, although they are used in other vehicles).



That's what durability testing is for. It doesn't catch everything though. The complexity is there due to customer demands for improved fuel economy and acceleration, plus tightening government standards. That's why powertrains have been changing so fast lately.



It's hard to say for cars that have been around for only a few years, but my '99 Corolla with 4 speed AT has 222300 miles on it currently. Off the top of my head I think Aisin makes it but I'm not sure.
Except, you know, the silent recalls and everything. My sister's Versa blew its CVT at 40k and was replaced under a TSB/extended warranty. My friend's Murano ate its CVT as well.

CVTs suck to drive, have little to no mileage benefit, and are unreliable. They're the worst transmission choice you can make. I'd rather have a two speed powerglide.
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Old 10-04-2012, 11:10 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skywaffles View Post
CVTs suck to drive, have little to no mileage benefit, and are unreliable. They're the worst transmission choice you can make. I'd rather have a two speed powerglide.
Yep. CVT's are turds and no amount of polish will change the fact that they stink.
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Old 10-04-2012, 11:58 AM   #12
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Yep. CVT's are turds and no amount of polish will change the fact that they stink.
They do have the upside of making the current outback one hell of a lot faster than it would be with an automatic.
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Old 10-04-2012, 12:07 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skywaffles View Post
CVTs suck to drive, have little to no mileage benefit, and are unreliable. They're the worst transmission choice you can make. I'd rather have a two speed powerglide.

There are several things that make the new Impreza have 30% better mpg than previous Imprezas, but the number one thing is the CVT; so how does it have "little to no mileage benefit"?

Subaru's Lineartronic CVT has proved to be reliable.

As for sucking to drive....well....that is preference. I think they are fine.
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Old 10-04-2012, 12:12 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by HipToBeSquare View Post
CVTs from all brands have reliability issues and seem to have higher repair rates after warranty expiration than automatics or manuals.

I was unaware Subaru's Lineartronic was having reliability issues. Could you elaborate?
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Old 10-01-2012, 04:31 PM   #15
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Actually i look forward to it.. cruising at idle... ahhh..
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Old 10-01-2012, 04:40 PM   #16
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Actually i look forward to it.. cruising at idle... ahhh..
Any car with a tall overdrive and a reasonable final drive ratio can do that.

the only thing required is enough latent torque to pressurize the hydraulics to down-shift when the accelerator is pressed. Most cars don't stay in top-gear if the driver presses the accelerator, anyway.

A 3 speed automatic can do that, if the third gear ratio is ~0.65:1 or so.

it is just a matter of how many gears, at what interval, are between lowest and highest gear ratios.
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Old 10-01-2012, 05:08 PM   #17
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Eh who cares.

Are you a CEO or engineer.

No need to get upset, lots of other things in the world to get pissed off at.

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Originally Posted by HipToBeSquare View Post
Any car with a tall overdrive and a reasonable final drive ratio can do that.

the only thing required is enough latent torque to pressurize the hydraulics to down-shift when the accelerator is pressed. Most cars don't stay in top-gear if the driver presses the accelerator, anyway.

A 3 speed automatic can do that, if the third gear ratio is ~0.65:1 or so.

it is just a matter of how many gears, at what interval, are between lowest and highest gear ratios.
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Old 10-01-2012, 06:31 PM   #18
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Eh who cares.

Are you a CEO or engineer.

No need to get upset, lots of other things in the world to get pissed off at.
I was the one paraphrasing a Monty Python JOKE about it.
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Old 10-01-2012, 05:17 PM   #19
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In all fairness to the cesspool that is union controlled GM.

GM has always made a pretty darn good transmission.
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Old 10-01-2012, 05:43 PM   #20
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Why not just perfect the CVT and be done with it? Subaru already has a CVT that doesn't drone too badly and somewhat mimicks an auto if you want. Change it from six to ten and call it good .
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Old 10-01-2012, 06:01 PM   #21
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Why is it that people ignore the thread point which is GM and Ford are both working on this 10 and 9. Surely if 9 is bad 10 must be terrible. Anyway if they can make it cheap, robust, then it is a great thing. If they can't then...
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Old 10-01-2012, 06:29 PM   #22
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Cheap and good seems kind of a stretch.
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Old 10-01-2012, 08:08 PM   #23
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Cheap and good seems kind of a stretch.
Yeah I don't mean "cheap" so I should change the word to say something else such as.

"Cost effective"
That would be a better term. I don't need it to be cheaper or even as cheap as 5 speed alternative. Just that it pays for the gas savings quickly and will not break. Quickly like in 1-2 years.
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Old 10-01-2012, 09:03 PM   #24
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I'm just not sure what about this news is worthy of an angry rant. Time marches on.
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Old 10-03-2012, 09:40 PM   #25
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The AT in our '97 Yukon was replaced 3 times before it was sold in '02.

/one data point
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