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Old 12-10-2012, 01:12 PM   #1
02nismokiller
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Ok so I got a question, I got a 04 wrx with intake/inlet, full 3" tbe, uppipe, grimspeed ebcs, tgv deletes, 3mm phenolic spacers, intercooler and bov and wanted to know when is the best time of the year to tune? I had it tuned back in Florida in August be jester tuning but it was a hot day and now I moved to New York and its freezing and I can tell I need to tune again...
Thanks in advance
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Old 12-10-2012, 02:35 PM   #2
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If you set up your temp compensations it shouldn't matter what season it is tuned in. More than anything you probably need a map tweek not a full retune.
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Old 12-10-2012, 03:18 PM   #3
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If you set up your temp compensations it shouldn't matter what season it is tuned in.
It is also kind of hard to get the temp compensations dialed in if the temps are not present. You can guesstimate what you need but that's not the same as having it dialed in. I agree that the whole car doesn't need to be retuned and just simple tweaking of the compensations is all that is needed.
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Old 12-13-2012, 11:01 AM   #4
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It is also kind of hard to get the temp compensations dialed in if the temps are not present. You can guesstimate what you need but that's not the same as having it dialed in. I agree that the whole car doesn't need to be retuned and just simple tweaking of the compensations is all that is needed.
If it was tuned correctly the first time the temp corrections were zeroed out for the conditions it was tuned at and the tabled rescaled with that as the zero mark. Just some minor adjustments should be needed on the comps if there's deviations.
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Old 12-16-2012, 07:45 PM   #5
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It is also kind of hard to get the temp compensations dialed in if the temps are not present. You can guesstimate what you need but that's not the same as having it dialed in. I agree that the whole car doesn't need to be retuned and just simple tweaking of the compensations is all that is needed.
An experienced tuner should be able to dial this in from day 1. Think about it, if you tuned 100+ WRXs/STIs, you really should know what to put in those tables. If you don't, you should quit and give your customer their money back. If I paid for a tune that had to be retuned because it got cold out, I'd ask for half of my money back because the car only works half of the year.
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Old 12-16-2012, 08:09 PM   #6
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An experienced tuner should be able to dial this in from day 1. Think about it, if you tuned 100+ WRXs/STIs, you really should know what to put in those tables. If you don't, you should quit and give your customer their money back. If I paid for a tune that had to be retuned because it got cold out, I'd ask for half of my money back because the car only works half of the year.
Yes and no. If I had the car tuned in Miami beach Florida and moved to Boulder,Co I would expect some issues. Especially the more radical the build. Now if I basically stayed in the same general area that is a different story.
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Old 12-16-2012, 10:27 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Ziggyrama View Post
An experienced tuner should be able to dial this in from day 1. Think about it, if you tuned 100+ WRXs/STIs, you really should know what to put in those tables. If you don't, you should quit and give your customer their money back. If I paid for a tune that had to be retuned because it got cold out, I'd ask for half of my money back because the car only works half of the year.
An experienced tuner from Florida, where it regularly gets to be 100+ might not touch any parts of the temp comp tables that are 40 and below... and I honestly don't blame them.
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Old 12-16-2012, 10:51 PM   #8
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An experienced tuner should be able to dial this in from day 1. Think about it, if you tuned 100+ WRXs/STIs, you really should know what to put in those tables. If you don't, you should quit and give your customer their money back. If I paid for a tune that had to be retuned because it got cold out, I'd ask for half of my money back because the car only works half of the year.
You're the reason some tuners have two billing rates; normal, and *******. Yeah you can get most of the temp comp tables with math from an engineering text. Some of them you cant. The proper way to do it is to zero out the comps on the first tune, re-center them to the conditions of the first tune, then adjust the comps as necessary. But a lot of the boost control stuff, I honestly don't know how/dont want to put in the effort for solving a 3rd or 4th order differential equation to figure out how the iat compensation should be adjusted for different system damping and stiffness coefficients (effected by turbo, bcs, intake, IC, etc).
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Old 12-26-2012, 09:48 AM   #9
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You're the reason some tuners have two billing rates; normal, and *******. Yeah you can get most of the temp comp tables with math from an engineering text. Some of them you cant. The proper way to do it is to zero out the comps on the first tune, re-center them to the conditions of the first tune, then adjust the comps as necessary. But a lot of the boost control stuff, I honestly don't know how/dont want to put in the effort for solving a 3rd or 4th order differential equation to figure out how the iat compensation should be adjusted for different system damping and stiffness coefficients (effected by turbo, bcs, intake, IC, etc).
Why am I the reason why tuners have different rates? What's wrong with expecting certain level of quality and attention to detail from someone that is presumably the expert? Tuning is not an art. It's a technical exercise. Laws of thermodynamics and properties of gases work the same way in FL as they do in MA. We live in an age where the information can be easily found and one in this field should be able to apply it effectively. I don't have to experience 150F IATs to tell you what that will do to the car and what steps I should take to give the car a reasonable configuration so that the driver does not experience catastrophic failure. You guys are forgetting that these tuners have seen many cars like yours already. They are supposed to know what to dial in before they actually try it. Essentially, get you the 80% there and fine tune the other 20% to account for variation.

I have tuned several cars over the last few years. I am a much better tuner now than I was a year ago. I expect to be a better tuner a year from now than I am today, assuming I am still doing this. I am not solving differential equations while I am tuning to figure out what I need to dial in. My experience along with solid technical base allow me to make reasonable and fairly accurate assertions while I am tuning. The rest is just feedback and refinement. The more you do it, the faster you can dial in these numbers. This is what you should be paying for when you're hiring a tuner. Granted, the more unusual your setup is, the more your tuner may actually have to think. But again, how many of these configurations would you really see? Intakes, EWG, meth injection, exhaust, EBCS probably accounts for 95% of customers that walk through the door. Ever wonder how some of these mail-order tuners can do a pretty good job on your car without actually having to touch just by knowing what you have? Amazing.

Imagine if you were doing your job at the same pace and performance as you did the day you started. How long would you last?
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Old 12-10-2012, 03:38 PM   #10
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Cause it feels 'weird' maybe due to such a high altitude and freezing weather compared to flat seal level hot Florida temps...
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Old 12-16-2012, 07:56 PM   #11
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Your numbers will be more impressive in the cold, but that's about it. A good tune should work in any temp at any elevation, if you find that yours has issues in certain conditions then you need to get the necessary compensations tweaked. This is the case regardless of what season you get the baseline tune done in.
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Old 12-16-2012, 08:48 PM   #12
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Your numbers will be more impressive in the cold, but that's about it. A good tune should work in any temp at any elevation, if you find that yours has issues in certain conditions then you need to get the necessary compensations tweaked. This is the case regardless of what season you get the baseline tune done in.
The stock compensations are ment for stock equipment, if you start upgrading and changing things like boost solenoids, injectors, ect the temperature compensations are totally off.

Aftermarket boost solenoids need significantly more temperature compensation than the stock system.

Very few tuners spend any time on this and I would doubt even more so in Florida. Out here in the desert where the temperature swings from 30-110F during the year many professional tuners encourage two maps for the extremes. I rebuilt the compensations for my car but it took a ton of logging every day over the course of the seasons.
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Old 12-24-2012, 08:39 PM   #13
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Nice ^ point. But things can be linearly approximated like pv=nrt. Can't they. Odes and Pdes should be solved to just algebra.

Btw I'm still in for the answer of which is the best season.
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Old 12-25-2012, 10:22 AM   #14
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IMO, it doesnt matter. But I know up here in New England, November and December are the slowest months for dyno shops. Thats when they have the most free time in the shop so you can normally just get whatever time slot you want.
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Old 12-26-2012, 10:02 AM   #15
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IMO, it doesnt matter. But I know up here in New England, November and December are the slowest months for dyno shops. Thats when they have the most free time in the shop so you can normally just get whatever time slot you want.
IMO, you should tune in the summer. It's safer to have your base maps set based on high IATs and then adjust your comp tables for colder air which will naturally has a higher resistance to knock rather than come up with an aggressive tune to boost your ego and then be forced to neuter it based on moderate detonation events that you did not see in winter months. Assuming you're still monitoring your car 6 months later. People will likely log their car for some time after the initial tune and assume all is well. Things get nice a toasty in the summer you may find yourself with your ignition multiplier cut in half as the computer is trying to save your engine.

BTW, we both live in a good area for tuning. In the last 12 months, my maps saw IATs between 20F and 140F. That just about covers most scenarios most people will see. Not too shabby.
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Old 12-26-2012, 07:00 PM   #16
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IMO, you should tune in the summer. It's safer to have your base maps set based on high IATs and then adjust your comp tables for colder air which will naturally has a higher resistance to knock rather than come up with an aggressive tune to boost your ego and then be forced to neuter it based on moderate detonation events that you did not see in winter months. Assuming you're still monitoring your car 6 months later. People will likely log their car for some time after the initial tune and assume all is well. Things get nice a toasty in the summer you may find yourself with your ignition multiplier cut in half as the computer is trying to save your engine.

BTW, we both live in a good area for tuning. In the last 12 months, my maps saw IATs between 20F and 140F. That just about covers most scenarios most people will see. Not too shabby.
If you are dyno tuning it shouldnt matter. The car should be good and heat soaked before you start dialing in. Post intercooler IATs, EGTs, and ECTs should all be pretty much at their normal values no matter the ambient temp after the car is heat soaked. I havent logged post intercooler IATs on one of these cars but on other boosted cars I normally only see a 20*F swing over a 80*F ambient swing once the car is fully heat soaked. You wont get dyno buster numbers tuning like that, but you'll get a tune that you can go beat the crap out of on a road course in 100* heat and not kill the engine.

On a street tune I dont normally feel all that comfortable pushing that close to the edge for it to make that big of a difference.
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Old 12-26-2012, 08:42 PM   #17
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If you are dyno tuning it shouldnt matter. The car should be good and heat soaked before you start dialing in. Post intercooler IATs, EGTs, and ECTs should all be pretty much at their normal values no matter the ambient temp after the car is heat soaked. I havent logged post intercooler IATs on one of these cars but on other boosted cars I normally only see a 20*F swing over a 80*F ambient swing once the car is fully heat soaked. You wont get dyno buster numbers tuning like that, but you'll get a tune that you can go beat the crap out of on a road course in 100* heat and not kill the engine.

On a street tune I dont normally feel all that comfortable pushing that close to the edge for it to make that big of a difference.
Makes sense.
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Old 12-26-2012, 05:01 PM   #18
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It not amazing. Thats the whole reason they offer support. Thats the whole reason you datalog the car and they can make revisons depending on the information sent back. You are missing the point entirely.
I get the point you are trying to make. I just do not agree with it I guess we can leave it at that.

We are digressing from the original question. I posted my opinion on the season in my previous post. Any thoughts on this?
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Old 12-26-2012, 06:57 PM   #19
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I disagree with the summer tuning. But that also depends on where your summer is.

If you see drastic climate changes going into winter then I would tune in spring/fall.

But this whole conversation is kinda pointless. As said tune anytime. A real tune will work anytime.

But to get dialed in the best, tune compensation tables and retune them in the season the compensation it supposed to account for. Or have tunes for the seasons.
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Old 12-27-2012, 11:11 AM   #20
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If it means anything to anyone, I have found that summer vs. winter tuning wasnt too much different. Very minute differences. I could run most timing when ambients were between 50-80*. When IATs get into the 100's, I have to drop timing and and add fueling, and same in the winter. I believe it has something to do with fuel grade in the winter being slightly different. Or the fact my load swings quite a bit. Again, not huge swings in how the car runs, but enough to make a slight difference. And of course WGDC changes with seasons as well.

My $.02
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Old 12-27-2012, 12:57 PM   #21
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If it means anything to anyone, I have found that summer vs. winter tuning wasnt too much different. Very minute differences. I could run most timing when ambients were between 50-80*. When IATs get into the 100's, I have to drop timing and and add fueling, and same in the winter. I believe it has something to do with fuel grade in the winter being slightly different. Or the fact my load swings quite a bit. Again, not huge swings in how the car runs, but enough to make a slight difference. And of course WGDC changes with seasons as well.

My $.02
The difference is that cold air has more resistance to detonation so all other things being equal, you should be able to run more timing as IATs drop. Look at the stock tune and IAT timing compensation table. The stock tune advances timing as temps drop. Also, when air is colder, it is denser and therefore requires less energy to compress. This means that your turbo is more efficient in winter months which means it transfers less heat while it builds boost which means lower temps post IC which is a good thing. Finally, colder air passing through your IC makes it more efficient which is yet another improvement. Days of winter vs. summer fuel blends are long gone. We're all getting a healthy dose of ethanol in our fuel year round so there's no need to blend a different mix in winter months....well, maybe for most of the country. I suppose extreme cold climates may get something different.
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Old 12-27-2012, 01:01 PM   #22
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The difference is that cold air has more resistance to detonation so all other things being equal, you should be able to run more timing as IATs drop. Look at the stock tune and IAT timing compensation table. The stock tune advances timing as temps drop. Also, when air is colder, it is denser and therefore requires less energy to compress. This means that your turbo is more efficient in winter months which means it transfers less heat while it builds boost which means lower temps post IC which is a good thing. Finally, colder air passing through your IC makes it more efficient which is yet another improvement. Days of winter vs. summer fuel blends are long gone. We're all getting a healthy dose of ethanol in our fuel year round so there's no need to blend a different mix in winter months....well, maybe for most of the country. I suppose extreme cold climates may get something different.
Should be. Don't forget you're also moving more air in colder months. Comp's may increase, but so does load. Which decreases timing

I still bet there is a slight difference in fuel quality for different months. How much, that I do not know
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Old 12-28-2012, 07:33 AM   #23
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Should be. Don't forget you're also moving more air in colder months. Comp's may increase, but so does load. Which decreases timing

I still bet there is a slight difference in fuel quality for different months. How much, that I do not know
That is true. I can achieve higher loads in winter months which puts me in map areas that I would not hit in the summer. But, this is something different than what I was referring to. I was comparing load for load, meaning, that if you're hitting the same load in the summer and winter, the cold air will allow you to run more timing at that same load. If you're looking at it from the max load standpoint, than yes, you'll have to cut the timing but you're at a different load at that moment which is not an apples to apples comparison.

Anyways, we can see that people have different opinions on the matter. There's really no best seasons for tuning. I have done it in all 4 seasons and it's really not easier or harder to do it in one vs. the other.
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Old 12-28-2012, 07:39 AM   #24
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I still bet there is a slight difference in fuel quality for different months. How much, that I do not know
That is possible. The stickers in the gas station say "up to 10%" ethanol. We could be getting 10% or 5% or 1%. Perhaps we get more ethanol in the mix in winter months and the content drops in summer. I tried to look for this info but it's not easily found. No one at the station can even point me in the direction of where to go to find out. I think the best way to know is to take a sample and test it and do it on periodic basis to find out what's really in it. Another thing to think about, as corn prices rise and ethanol becomes more expensive to produce, I imagine gas producers may cut the blend down to keep the prices from rising too much. I am sure they're under pressure to keep it as low as possible. May have an effect on how much is added to the mix.
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Old 12-28-2012, 06:13 PM   #25
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That is possible. The stickers in the gas station say "up to 10%" ethanol. We could be getting 10% or 5% or 1%. Perhaps we get more ethanol in the mix in winter months and the content drops in summer. I tried to look for this info but it's not easily found. No one at the station can even point me in the direction of where to go to find out. I think the best way to know is to take a sample and test it and do it on periodic basis to find out what's really in it. Another thing to think about, as corn prices rise and ethanol becomes more expensive to produce, I imagine gas producers may cut the blend down to keep the prices from rising too much. I am sure they're under pressure to keep it as low as possible. May have an effect on how much is added to the mix.
That's because most gas stations are privately owned and only carry the fuel of the big company. Then there's the fuel distributors that move the fuel. Then there's the parent fuel company. Twice removed from the actual data and the actual parent company doesn't care to share their formula with you. Then there's the fact that there are variances regardless. Fuel in the tanks is never empty, rain water dilutes it sometimes, testing done on site also gets put back in the tanks. There IS no exact number. There is not a single person who can tell you the correct answer except somebody that will test on site.

There's your precise answer.

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