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Old 03-07-2013, 12:51 PM   #1
fredzy
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Default Scion mulling hybrid FR-S? Toyobaru Faimly on the Horizon?

Update:

Tetsuya Tada giving some valuable insight on the twins and their prospects for future offspring, courtesy of Jalopnik. The convertible isn't exactly ready yet, either.

Quote:
How would you like to see a whole family of models spawned from the Scion FR-S/Toyota GT-86/Subaru BRZ like what BMW has done with Mini? If your answer is "hell yes," then you'll be happy to know that Tetsuya Tada, the chief engineer of the Toyobaru, wants that to happen as well.

Tada gave a fascinating interview over at Toyota's official UK blog, in which he said it would be his "dream" to see the GT-86 turn into a whole new lineup of cars. Including, he said, a shooting brake so he can take his dogs along for the ride. (God, that guy is awesome.)

During the development process, Tada said that designers investigated the possibility of a sedan and shooting brake version, but were told to focus on the coupe. Here's what he said:

“It’s just my personal dream that the GT86 could become a family like what BMW has done with the Mini family. I hope that happens. I also have five dogs myself and I would like to have them in the car, so a sports shooting break would be just right.

As for the GT 86 Convertible everyone is so excited about, Tada said "there’s still some way to go before production. We’ve got many engineering challenges and not all of them are solved yet."

Tada also spoke about Toyota's planned collaboration with BMW, which will more than likely result in a new, high-tech sportscar. He said that Toyota learned a lot from working with another company's culture when they made the GT-86 with Subaru, and they hope to do the same with the Germans. He think that beer and sausage will be necessary first.

“At the moment we are struggling, because we are having this really business-like dealing with BMW and we haven’t really been able to get through that barrier so far. Perhaps I need to meet them socially and drink beer and eat sausage together. In fact the one time I felt we went beyond the business-like barrier was when we all went to Oktoberfest and drank beer. That was the one time, when we were drinking together that I thought, these are unexpectedly good people…

See what I mean? Guy's awesome.
http://jalopnik.com/scion-fr-s-boss-...e-mo-453530305

As if this discussion needed to get any more crazy. Lots of interesting stuff here:

Quote:
Toyota is considering launching a range-topping variant of the GT86 (sold as the Scion FR-S in the United States) powered by a hybrid drivetrain.

Speaking with England's Autocar magazine, Toyota chief engineer Tetsuya Tada revealed that designers are already working on the coupe's mid-cycle facelift. In addition to new sheetmetal, the refresh will bring about a more powerful version of the car that will utilize either a turbocharger, a supercharger or a potent hybrid drivetrain to squeeze every last pony out of the flat-four.

"An electric motor assistance solution is possible and it would bring benefits that forced induction does not," said Tada in an interview at the Geneva Motor Show.

If Toyota picks the hybrid route, the gasoline-electric drivetrain will be considerably simpler and cheaper to produce than the one that is found under the skin of the Prius. This will keep the coupe's price within Toyota's target bracket and avoid adding too much weight.

Tada also revealed why Toyota didn't launch a more powerful version of the GT86 and a convertible model immediately after the car made its debut.

"Management considered the GT86 very risky," admitted Tada. "They wanted proof that the '86 coupe would hit its sales target before they would sign off on a convertible. Now that they have the proof, we can begin to think about other development ideas for the car."

If launched, the hybrid-powered FR-S is at least two or three years away.
http://www.leftlanenews.com/scion-mu...brid-fr-s.html

Last edited by fredzy; 03-13-2013 at 12:40 PM. Reason: Updated
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Old 03-07-2013, 01:10 PM   #2
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Turbo would be preferred.

FRS/BRZ already get decent MPG (~27-28 combined). Throw in a hybrid system and what do you get, 37-38 mpg combined?
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Old 03-07-2013, 01:15 PM   #3
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hybrid wouldn't be bad if it got 50mpg like the prius. You could drive a hybrid that you would actually want to be seen in.
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Old 03-07-2013, 04:10 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by gggplaya View Post
hybrid wouldn't be bad if it got 50mpg like the prius. You could drive a hybrid that you would actually want to be seen in.
Unless it drives like a prius too... who cares what it looks like.

Get 40 mpg and make the driving fun.
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Old 03-07-2013, 01:53 PM   #5
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Not if it gained 400 lbs to become a hybrid. I will pass. That sort of defeats the point of the whole car.

Now a turbo would be a blast. but even that has a weight penatly of sorts.
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Old 03-07-2013, 01:56 PM   #6
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Not if it gained 400 lbs to become a hybrid. I will pass. That sort of defeats the point of the whole car.

Now a turbo would be a blast. but even that has a weight penatly of sorts.
It defeats the purpose of being a lightweight sports car, but being a hybrid puts it into another class of cars. It'll be the best looking and best handling hybrid (CRZ was total crap).
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Old 03-07-2013, 02:00 PM   #7
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Not if it gained 400 lbs to become a hybrid. I will pass. That sort of defeats the point of the whole car.


Where are you getting 400lbs from?

Civic sedan auto: 2815 lbs
Civic hybrid: 2868 lbs

For the Civic hybrid the battery weighs ~48lbs and the eletric motor weighs ~42lbs.

Last edited by 53x12; 03-07-2013 at 02:19 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 03-07-2013, 02:16 PM   #8
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Can they fit small electric motors on the front? I know the packaging ruled out mechanical AWD, but electric would be entertaining. And more efficient.

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Originally Posted by 53x12 View Post
Where are you getting 400lbs from?

Civic sedan auto: 2815 lbs
Civic hybrid: 2868 lbs

For the Civic hybrid the batter weighs ~48lbs and the eletric motor weighs ~42lbs.
mmm. batter dipped honda.
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Old 03-07-2013, 02:25 PM   #9
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Hybrid probably won't be worth it for the cost/benefit aspect, but it will open up the market to people that will only buy a hybrid (because it's green). I'm all for them getting more sales out of the same chassis to reduce costs and allow for faster development.
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Old 03-07-2013, 02:30 PM   #10
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I don't think you can make that direct assumption. Many hybrids incorporate lightening to compensate for the hybrid drive. That may be harder on a car designed to be light.

As you also can't make the assumption that the hybrid drive would weigh 400 lbs. Civic hybrid drive weighs ~100 lbs, the Camry hybrid drive weighs ~ 260 ish. Not unreasonable to assume Toyota would make every effort, like you stated to incorporate lightening to compensate for the hybrid drive. No reason why it couldn't weigh around 100-150 lbs.
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Old 03-07-2013, 02:32 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by 53x12 View Post
As you also can't make the assumption that the hybrid drive would weigh 400 lbs. Civic hybrid drive weighs ~100 lbs, the Camry hybrid drive weighs ~ 260 ish. Not unreasonable to assume Toyota would make every effort, like you stated to incorporate lightening to compensate for the hybrid drive. No reason why it couldn't weigh around 100-150 lbs.
Realized that after I posted...failed ninja edit.
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Old 03-08-2013, 10:25 AM   #12
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As you also can't make the assumption that the hybrid drive would weigh 400 lbs. Civic hybrid drive weighs ~100 lbs, the Camry hybrid drive weighs ~ 260 ish. Not unreasonable to assume Toyota would make every effort, like you stated to incorporate lightening to compensate for the hybrid drive. No reason why it couldn't weigh around 100-150 lbs.
Kers in F1 weighs about 75lbs and adds ~80hp...
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Old 03-07-2013, 02:08 PM   #13
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Also just looked online at the Camry hybrid XLE vs the standard XLE and from the weights I could find online it seems the hybrid weighs ~260 lbs heavier. That is for a much larger hybrid system than is needed for the FRS. Something along the lines of the Civic size would make much more sense.
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Old 03-07-2013, 02:47 PM   #14
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Yeah, 400 lbs was just a swag, but the weight would depend greatly only on what kind of Hybrid system it was. Is a system that can run on pure EV, or will be used to boost performance. A booster type hybrid system could be VERY light indeed. But if you want it to get 75 miles on pure EV then no, it will be very heavy.
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Old 03-07-2013, 03:41 PM   #15
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I bet the Toyota product development folks were sitting around a table trying to figure out why manual BRZs and FR-Ss are selling out and automatic BRZs and FR-Ss are languishing on lots..

.. and then someone said, "I bet it's because automatic buyers want even more efficiency!"



Seriously, the fact that the auto FR-S (which gets better fuel mileage than the manual) is a slow seller should really highlight to someone at Toyota that the market for small sports cars with automatics and good gas mileage is a tiny niche not worth exploring.

Now.. a Scion tC with the Prius drivetrain would be a hot seller.
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Old 03-07-2013, 03:46 PM   #16
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I bet the Toyota product development folks were sitting around a table trying to figure out why manual BRZs and FR-Ss are selling out and automatic BRZs and FR-Ss are languishing on lots..

.. and then someone said, "I bet it's because automatic buyers want even more efficiency!"



Seriously, the fact that the auto FR-S (which gets better fuel mileage than the manual) is a slow seller should really highlight to someone at Toyota that the market for small sports cars with automatics and good gas mileage is a tiny niche not worth exploring.

Now.. a Scion tC with the Prius drivetrain would be a hot seller.
Agreed, figure out how to stuff that Prius C power-train in the next version.
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Old 03-07-2013, 09:16 PM   #17
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Now.. a Scion tC with the Camry hybrid drivetrain would be a hot seller.
200hp and 40mpg would sell like crazy.

I'm pretty sure someone at Toyota product planning is on meth since they haven't put that fantastic 2.5L HSD into the Lexus CT.
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Old 03-07-2013, 03:53 PM   #18
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A lightweight, acceleration boosting system on the front wheels would probably make this car much more attractive to a lot of people.
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Old 03-07-2013, 05:21 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Calamity Jesus View Post
Seriously, the fact that the auto FR-S (which gets better fuel mileage than the manual) is a slow seller should really highlight to someone at Toyota that the market for small sports cars with automatics and good gas mileage is a tiny niche not worth exploring.
Do you think the convertible will sell better as an auto or manual? I'd put my money on the auto.
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Old 03-07-2013, 05:46 PM   #20
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I just realized that we all need to stop talking about the possibility of a hybrid. They'll see it as buzz and it will just make them want to do it more.

Quote:
In addition to new sheetmetal, the refresh will bring about a more powerful version of the car that will utilize either a turbocharger, a supercharger or a potent hybrid drivetrain to squeeze every last pony out of the flat-four.
Potent sounds nice, but let's hope they remember this is a sports car and go with a turbo or supercharger. It sounds like Toyota is all about superchargers, but those can be rough in the MPG department, so.. we're screwed, hybrid.

I'd prefer strung out N/A but that doesn't play nicely with MPGs either.
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Old 03-08-2013, 12:36 AM   #21
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so.. we're screwed.
I vote twin-screwed.
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Old 03-08-2013, 08:29 AM   #22
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I vote twin-screwed.
:like:
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Old 03-08-2013, 08:36 AM   #23
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I vote twin-screwed.
The funniest thing about it is how I didn't intend the pun. I'm special like that.
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Old 03-13-2013, 12:39 PM   #24
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Updated OP with some new info from Tetsuya Tada. Shooting brake!?! Maybe!
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Old 03-13-2013, 03:43 PM   #25
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Shooting brake with a hybrid system. Sure, make a nice nimble grand tourer. That's fine, just make sure I can get my BRZ as is right now in the future.
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