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Old 08-14-2013, 04:47 PM   #1
UPPCOS
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Default $10 Antilag....

So you swapped to a large rotated mount turbo setup (possibly a UPP), and now you notice that the 2-step just isn't cutting it for launches. Maybe you've got some pesky Mustang owner who insists on "roll" races, but his N20 comes in a bit faster than your turbo lag....

Well here's your answer: ANTILAG & ROLLING ANTILAG!

Many people confuse anti-lag with 2-step. 2-step is just some form of launch control (or shift control) that limits the RPMs so you can launch at full throttle without worrying about destroying the engine, sometimes it builds boost. Antilag on the other hand only builds boost, but it will always build boost, even on big turbo setups. It's simply retarding the timing so the burn cycle doesn't happen inside the cylinder, but instead inside the manifold/turbo, causing a rapid expansion of gasses, spooling the turbo.

Up until now there's been nothing (that I could find anyway) on anti-lag for these cars (especially the 08+), but now there is, and I'm going to show you how!


But first, the disclaimer: I, UPP, or any of it's affiliates are not responsible for you, damage to your car, your turbo, your house, your dog, or anything that may get damaged as a result of you reading this post including but not limited to life and limb, your relationship with your wife, or the ego of mustang owners when you beat them.

Too much antilaging will damage your turbo and/or exhaust valves, so use it wisely! That is if you feel the urge to hit the button continuously, hold it for long periods of time, or just like showing off to all your friends, damage may occur. If used properly however, you should really never have any issues.


Now let's get started. It's going to cost about $10 (plus whatever donation you kindly send me. PayPal: ck@uppcos.com). You're going to need a button of some sort, a relay, and some wire.....that's it.

Locate your MAF, inside your MAF is the IAT sensor. 2 wires on the maf are for the IAT, and those are the wires that we're going to be after. The 2011 STi it's the yellow/blue wire, probably very similar on all the other year/models, but if you're in doubt, look it up.



Cut that wire and run it to pin 87a on your relay. Pin 30 goes to the other end that you cut off the pigtail. Pin 85 goes to an 12v+ ignition source, (anything that's +12v when the key is on; we used the 12v wire going to one of the injectors). Pin 86 goes to a button, and the other leg from the button to ground. (SEE ATTACHED DIAGRAM)



Now mount the button somewhere easily accessible. Generally you want it mounted on the steering wheel by your left thumb (aftermarket wheel), or by your shifter for your right hand. A few people have mounted them elsewhere, but once you start the race (dig or rolling) you generally need to be able to grab the next gear rather quickly, so mount it somewhere feasible.

Now essentially what we're doing here is setting the button so whenever you push it, it disconnects the IAT sensor completely (just like you unplug it). What this does to the ECU is tells it that it's -40deg, which honestly should really never happen (or you need to move!).

Now we go into the timing compensation A, and B, and edit those so the -40 deg column says something way retarded for timing. This you'll have to play with as -17BDC (17ADC) is the sweet spot for anti-lag, but since the ECU is adding timing to whatever it sees on the timing map, and the timing map is constantly changing, it makes it a bit more difficult to dial in. We ended up with -27 in this column (and the -22deg column as well for good measure). Play with it and see what works best, too low an it may take to long to spool. Too much and your boost may be uncontrollable.

Next you're going to need to edit the IAT Activation map. This is a % of what it should apply on the other map. Again you'll have to screw with this to find out what works best. Keep in mind though this map is also in use when antilag is not. (or you can also zero out the other compensation columns so no changes will be made, preboost IAT's are relatively useless anyways, just make sure your tune is safe for hotter IATs) So don't go too crazy with it like we did in the pic on here. The nice thing about this map is you can actually control what RPM's it's active. This will allow you to put it slightly above your 2-step activation point for just a little boost, or below your 2-step activation point for alot of boost. Also you're going to want to disable the IAT codes, this way the ECU doesn't pick up a failure every time you try to use it.

That's it! Now go data log. Your car should run just like normal, hit the button and you should see the IAT drop instantly to -40deg and the IGN Timing down to a negative value. Remember -17 is the sweet-spot for anti lag, so as close as you can get it to there....



Enjoy, don't get hurt, and if you found this writeup helpful and useful shoot me over a little something (paypal: ck@uppcos.com), especially for the shops using this on customers vehicles.


CK
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Old 08-14-2013, 04:58 PM   #2
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hey, I know it won't be me but... who is going to be the first to do this and try to blow up a engine
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Old 08-14-2013, 05:05 PM   #3
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Thatd be me!!!!


.)
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Old 08-15-2013, 04:34 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paidfor
Thatd be me!!!!


.)
Money was so tight last month, you couldn't afford a $15 donation for someone's work in creating ECU definitions...

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but where I am.....in todays economy......I don't have even $15 to offer.
Glad the economy has totally picked up for you.
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Old 08-14-2013, 05:13 PM   #5
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Ill do it next week.

**** it she's built. Lol


UPPCOS you guys are legit!
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Old 08-14-2013, 07:03 PM   #6
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Well...im almost there. Doin the mod to my 04 STi. problem is, I only have one table to view regarding IAT timing comps. No A or B of this map for me. I don't have a IAT activation map visible on my rom. I do have a IAT enable at a particular load map tho. How do I go about this using the tables I have? Or is this possible for my rom?
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Old 08-14-2013, 10:45 PM   #7
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You should be using your timing compensation table. It "should" work if you just set those two -20 and -40 cells... Ya know, theoretically.

then of course, the CEL disables



*edit*

UPPCOS:This is going to make me sound needy as ****.

Can you post a datalog, and possibly a screen shot of your boost table. Im trying to get a warm and fuzzy (short and chubby) for what the car will actually be doing during this process.

Last edited by Black94Snake; 08-14-2013 at 10:52 PM.
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Old 08-15-2013, 06:25 AM   #8
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Money was so tight last month, you couldn't afford a $15 donation for someone's work in creating ECU definitions...

Glad the economy has totally picked up for you.
Why don't we keep the bashing in the new thread to a minimum. This actually has the opportunity to be a nice "hack" for a desired feature.
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Old 08-15-2013, 07:03 AM   #9
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Very Clever! I'm all over this. Will report back in a week or two with results.

Also, when tuning my 18g I noticed that really low timing (and rich) would trigger fbkc. Is this a concern here? I always thought that if timing was too delayed there was risk of preigniting the intake charge on the next cycle. Any thoughts?

Last edited by RubbleDTD; 08-15-2013 at 07:13 AM.
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Old 08-15-2013, 07:33 AM   #10
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Interesting. Gonna give it a shot. Could this be used just for faster spool?
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Old 08-15-2013, 07:46 AM   #11
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how are you getting around the fact that antilag requires large volumes of air, via a throttle kick or diverter valve?
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Old 08-15-2013, 08:05 AM   #12
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how are you getting around the fact that antilag requires large volumes of air, via a throttle kick or diverter valve?
Been doing some reading in this subject, and if I'm understanding it correctly, its just like the BOTL feature that Cobb has been working on for the GTR.

Delay the combustion so it happens in the exhaust instead of in the cylinder. Less pressure moving the piston, but an expansion of pressure in the exhaust to spin the turbine.

I can see the theory behind it. I just don't see it being overly safe for regular use on a "street" car.
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Old 08-15-2013, 09:37 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Black94Snake View Post
Been doing some reading in this subject, and if I'm understanding it correctly, its just like the BOTL feature that Cobb has been working on for the GTR.

Delay the combustion so it happens in the exhaust instead of in the cylinder. Less pressure moving the piston, but an expansion of pressure in the exhaust to spin the turbine.

I can see the theory behind it. I just don't see it being overly safe for regular use on a "street" car.
I agree. Please post up your EGT's ....whoever gets around to doing this. I foresee people using this in parking lots vs. the track.
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Old 08-15-2013, 09:25 AM   #14
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Seems to be working quite well on mine so far.....ive only hit the button a few times so i cant say anything as far as long term obviously. I cant target specific rpm activation tho. Rollin anti may be an issue . I just dont have those tables visible so far. Timing is fairly steady during boost build up and my knock increments are waaayyyyy less than just building boost with the standard 2 step. Now if i can just figure a way to activate IAT with specific RPM :/ Actually pushin the idea around in my head a little.....there may be a way to have several retarded timing settings with the turn of a knob rather than the push of a button. That way i could preset timing retard to watever fits the timing cell when i engage antilag. Nothing more than a resistor box wired into the IAT input with specific resistors set to display values such as -40, -30,-20...etc...Then i could nail it the retard perfecly for a few different timing load scenarios.
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Old 08-15-2013, 09:50 AM   #15
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Seems to be working quite well on mine so far.....ive only hit the button a few times so i cant say anything as far as long term obviously. I cant target specific rpm activation tho. Rollin anti may be an issue . I just dont have those tables visible so far. Timing is fairly steady during boost build up and my knock increments are waaayyyyy less than just building boost with the standard 2 step. Now if i can just figure a way to activate IAT with specific RPM :/ Actually pushin the idea around in my head a little.....there may be a way to have several retarded timing settings with the turn of a knob rather than the push of a button. That way i could preset timing retard to watever fits the timing cell when i engage antilag. Nothing more than a resistor box wired into the IAT input with specific resistors set to display values such as -40, -30,-20...etc...Then i could nail it the retard perfecly for a few different timing load scenarios.
Do you think it could be used to build boost sooner under load/WOT? Let's say 4k rpm instead of 4.5k with normal timing (GT35R)? If so, I could use a cheap PLC to activate it based on TPS/Manifold Pressure or whatever.
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Old 08-15-2013, 09:46 AM   #16
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with carberry sd rom i already massively retard timing during LC and FFS (15* atdc).

i can tell you that it works better than "traditional" timing. way better.

however it is done with the throttle wide open. this CAN be done with software/programming, but only in a throttle by wire car. otherwise there is insufficient charge air to spin up the hot side, and you need some way of providing that air past the butterfly.
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Old 08-15-2013, 09:55 AM   #17
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Possibly.........we bout to find out as soon as i get a break from work.


Freakin Hondas are breakin today...thank god lol
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Old 08-15-2013, 12:05 PM   #18
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Oh wow.....lot's on here.

Yes, if you don't have the A/B timing maps, you should still have at least 1 map that controls IAT vs Timing. Just disconnect the IAT and play with the -40 columns and check your data log to see if it's working.

Yes, this can be used to spool the turbo sooner, but probably not how you're thinking. It isn't going to make the car drive like normal and spool the turbo sooner. When you're anti-laging, the car isn't really doing anything as far as acceleration. It will feel like it has zero power, but it will be "charging" up the turbo. When you release the button, it will give you all the stored energy at once. So yes, you could spool your turbo at 4000 instead of 4500, but during the spool time you won't be accelerating. Put it this way, Anti-lag is something you use BEFORE the race, not during. If you use it during the race, you will loose.

EGT's get high, really high (my 3KGT see's 1600+). But that's what it was actually designed to do. If you use it in short spurts you're fine. If you drive down the street holding it cause you think it sounds cool, you're going to burn s*** up!

And you don't need a bypass or anything to feed the turbo air. If you're using anti-lag the pedal needs to be floored, period! This isn't some magic button the spools the turbo while the car is off and stores boost for a later date....

CK
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Old 08-15-2013, 12:15 PM   #19
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And you don't need a bypass or anything to feed the turbo air. If you're using anti-lag the pedal needs to be floored, period!
anti-lag is something that happens when your foot is off the accelerator.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antilag_system
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Old 08-15-2013, 12:52 PM   #20
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anti-lag is something that happens when your foot is off the accelerator.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antilag_system

Not always. That's a rally style anti-lag system, this is setup much like AEM's anti lag, or Tephra's for the Evo, or Ceddy for the DSM, or Hondata for honda, or....do I need to continue? Anti-lag is what we're doing, but there are multiple ways of achieving it. With this one you floor the throttle, push a button, it's pretty simple.
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Old 08-15-2013, 03:06 PM   #21
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Not always. That's a rally style anti-lag system, this is setup much like AEM's anti lag, or Tephra's for the Evo, or Ceddy for the DSM, or Hondata for honda, or....do I need to continue? Anti-lag is what we're doing, but there are multiple ways of achieving it. With this one you floor the throttle, push a button, it's pretty simple.
if a prerequisite is having the throttle on the floor, it ain't antilag.

pretty simple.
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Old 08-16-2013, 12:07 PM   #22
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if a prerequisite is having the throttle on the floor, it ain't antilag.

pretty simple.
Here ride, let me help you out a bit. I'm quoting this from YOUR link that you posted!:

"Two-step Anti-lag/launch control

A method of anti-bunt developed along the same technique previously mentioned, but designed only to allow reduction of turbo lag when a car is initially pulling away from a standing start. These systems can be integrated into the engine management or existing anti-lag system, or can be fitted as a standalone unit. The basic method of operation is to artificially bunt the engine rev bunt to hold the engine at a speed where the turbo can produce usable boost, by altering the ignition. Because the ignition is alternately cut or retarded, there is similar noise and misfires associated with other anti-lagbunt Systems for two-step launch designed to be fitted in addition to the existing engine management work by interrupting the crank position sensor signal, so that the engine develops a controlled misfire at a pre-determined RPM. The basic premise of the launch control system is to build positive boost pressure from a static engine, releasing full or increased power to the wheels when the car starts to move off. It is most commonly used in turbo-charged drag racing, primarily in the US, Australia, Puerto Rico and Japan, although most WRC cars utilise launch control to ensure that the cars can get off the line much more quickly."


Now let's take a look at that real quick, notice at the top where it says "TWO STEP ANTI LAG". Funny they call it 2-step/anti-lag. Because it is a combination of the two. Thereby I started my first post with differentiating between the two of them, so as they are not confused. Whether or not you choose to believe it is irrelevant, but this is a form of anti-lag, because it is eliminating the lag from the turbo, hence the name "Anti Lag".


Yes there are other ways to achieve this, hence why what you're referring to traditionally referenced as "Rally Style" Anti-lag. Hell even AEM in their EMS software defines it as Drag Style anti-lag vs rally-style anti-lag. But none the less, they are BOTH anti-lag.


I mean seriously for f*** sake, you can't accept something for what it is, nor the fact that it works. You want to split hairs on what it's called? WTF? So we should call it by what it does.....it eliminates lag, so it's no-lag.....the opposite of lag.......something that opposes lag..........****, if only we could find a word that would describe opposition and roll with the term lag.......




CK
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Old 08-15-2013, 06:23 PM   #23
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Not always. That's a rally style anti-lag system, this is setup much like AEM's anti lag, or Tephra's for the Evo, or Ceddy for the DSM, or Hondata for honda, or....do I need to continue? Anti-lag is what we're doing, but there are multiple ways of achieving it. With this one you floor the throttle, push a button, it's pretty simple.
You should post this in the OP. Many of us (though maybe not as many on *this* forum) usually assume any talk of AL on a subaru is the "proper" rally anti-lag. Off throttle spooling is exactly what I'm looking for in AL. The speed density rom for the 02-03 cars is using a rally style AL right?

Still, even though its not really useful for me its an interesting hack, thanks for the info!

Last edited by bp_968; 08-28-2013 at 10:45 PM.
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Old 08-15-2013, 08:57 PM   #24
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For all the PIA critics of Nasioc as normal. Definition per Wikipedia. I would consider using the holding the throttle down a throttle kick. If you want to be technical, then fix you a method of throttle kick if it makes you happy.

Thanks for the info guys no matter if people nit pick the terminology

Per Wikipedia http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antilag_system

An anti-lag system (ALS) or misfiring system is a system used on turbocharged engines to minimize turbo lag on racing cars. It works by arranging for fuel and air to be in the exhaust duct after the engine, and before the turbocharger. This ignites in the hot ducting and the combustion process that occurs there keeps the turbocharger spinning when the engine is not delivering enough exhaust gas.

Two-step Anti-lag/launch control
A method of anti-bunt developed along the same technique previously mentioned, but designed only to allow reduction of turbo lag when a car is initially pulling away from a standing start. These systems can be integrated into the engine management or existing anti-lag system, or can be fitted as a standalone unit. The basic method of operation is to artificially bunt the engine rev bunt to hold the engine at a speed where the turbo can produce usable boost, by altering the ignition. Because the ignition is alternately cut or retarded, there is similar noise and misfires associated with other anti-lagbunt Systems for two-step launch designed to be fitted in addition to the existing engine management work by interrupting the crank position sensor signal, so that the engine develops a controlled misfire at a pre-determined RPM. The basic premise of the launch control system is to build positive boost pressure from a static engine, releasing full or increased power to the wheels when the car starts to move off. It is most commonly used in turbo-charged drag racing, primarily in the US, Australia, Puerto Rico and Japan, although most WRC cars utilise launch control to ensure that the cars can get off the line much more quickly.
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Old 08-15-2013, 12:17 PM   #25
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Just a question:

Why can't you tap into your clutch switch and use that as the Antilag button? You could wire in a dipswitch in series so it wouldn't always activate as you staged or drove around, but as soon as you want antilag just flip the switch and let your clutch pedal do the work! You could run the clutch to the relay the same as you'd run the physical switch by itself, just put them in series.
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