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Old 01-06-2003, 01:07 AM   #1
quynce
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Default Alarm, Remote Start, & Defroster...

Two questions for anyone that has done this. I am adding a remote start/alarm to my 5mt WRX.

First, I'm trying to figure out the best way to hook up the neutral safety wire. The best I've come up with is with two relays. The first would have have the neutral safety wire on the + side and the status output from the alarm on the - side. Ground to 30 and the alarm's neutral safety wire on 87. Splice 87 on that wire to the - side of the second relay. The + side would be the starter wire. 30 would be one side of the clutch switch and 87 would be the other. There is one potential problem with this setup: I don't know for sure if the status output transmits before or after checking the neutral safety wire. Do any of you know for sure? If it transmits after checking the safety wires, this obviously wouldn't work. The only alternative I see is to ground the alarm's neutral safety wire and just use some relays to bypass the clutch wire during every start, not only during remote starts. The problem with this is that the alarm would try to start even if the car were in gear, even though the clutch wouldn't let it.

Second, has anyone used an output from the alarm to trigger the defrost wire? It seems like it would just require a + or - pulse, but I haven't checked it out yet. Any ideas?

Sorry about the novel, thanks in advance for any help.

josh
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Old 01-06-2003, 01:51 AM   #2
WWRRXX
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I have a remote start on my 5mt wrx, and I just hooked it up to my handbrake so the alarm wont try to start unless the hand brake is up. Also my alarm has a built in turbo timer that runs the car for 2min after the key is taken out so u really cant leave it in gear.
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Old 01-06-2003, 08:37 AM   #3
netZ
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Default Re: Alarm, Remote Start, & Defroster...

what remote start alarm system are you referring to?

for the viper 550esp and other dei remote start systems, there's a black/white neutral safety wire that needs to see ground before remote start will work. you tap the neutral wire off the ecu. you should put a toggle switch between this wire so that you can disable remote start whenever the vehicle is being serviced or in parked places where you don't want the remote start to be accidentally enabled.

the viper 550esp has a remote start status output that can be used on a relay to 'engage' the clutch to allow the starter to start. this is the blue wire off the remote start harness. this wire can also be used to re-arm a factory alarm, this doesn't apply for this application usage.

when you activate the remote start feature off the remote, there is a 4 second delay after the parking lights flash for acknowledgement. then the system will attempt to start the vehicle.

don't think for a second that you can safely remote start your vehicle by just using the handbrake as the safety mechanism, especially on a manual transmission. b/c the handbrake will show ground even if you didn't fully engage the handbrake. that's just asking for trouble!

i don't have my electrical wiring manual handy with me, so i'll have to get back to you on the defrost option. my guess would to use the Channel 2 output off the alarm. it supplies a ground as long as you are holding the Channel 2 button of the remote. you would attach that wire to Pin 85, Pin 86 is a 12 volt connection or tap to the Ignition wire that's being powered by the remote start Ignition relay, if the defrost button has 2 wires, tap one wire to Pin 87 and tap the other wire to Pin 30. when the vehicle is being remote starter and Channel 2 is pressed, the relay will join the two wires behind the defrost button. this should turn your defrosters on.

netZ

Quote:
Originally posted by quynce
Two questions for anyone that has done this. I am adding a remote start/alarm to my 5mt WRX.

First, I'm trying to figure out the best way to hook up the neutral safety wire. The best I've come up with is with two relays. The first would have have the neutral safety wire on the + side and the status output from the alarm on the - side. Ground to 30 and the alarm's neutral safety wire on 87. Splice 87 on that wire to the - side of the second relay. The + side would be the starter wire. 30 would be one side of the clutch switch and 87 would be the other. There is one potential problem with this setup: I don't know for sure if the status output transmits before or after checking the neutral safety wire. Do any of you know for sure? If it transmits after checking the safety wires, this obviously wouldn't work. The only alternative I see is to ground the alarm's neutral safety wire and just use some relays to bypass the clutch wire during every start, not only during remote starts. The problem with this is that the alarm would try to start even if the car were in gear, even though the clutch wouldn't let it.

Second, has anyone used an output from the alarm to trigger the defrost wire? It seems like it would just require a + or - pulse, but I haven't checked it out yet. Any ideas?

Sorry about the novel, thanks in advance for any help.

josh
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Old 01-06-2003, 07:26 PM   #4
quynce
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Default Re: Alarm, Remote Start, & Defroster...

Quote:
Originally posted by netZ
what remote start alarm system are you referring to?

for the viper 550esp and other dei remote start systems, there's a black/white neutral safety wire that needs to see ground before remote start will work. you tap the neutral wire off the ecu. you should put a toggle switch between this wire so that you can disable remote start whenever the vehicle is being serviced or in parked places where you don't want the remote start to be accidentally enabled.

the viper 550esp has a remote start status output that can be used on a relay to 'engage' the clutch to allow the starter to start. this is the blue wire off the remote start harness. this wire can also be used to re-arm a factory alarm, this doesn't apply for this application usage.

netZ

Thanks for the reply. I was hoping you would jump in on this. I am putting in a DEI unit.

The problem with wiring the neutral safety wire from the ECU directly to the black/white wire is that the ECU throws 12V in neutral, and 0 (ground?) in gear, so it would have the opposite effect, hence the two relays.

Regarding the status output (blue) wire, do you know if it transmits before or after checking the neutral safety wire? Thanks again.

josh
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Old 01-07-2003, 02:52 AM   #5
mikkyo
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I dont like the 2 relay solution to this either.
be nice to have an AND gate or something on a relay.
+ in from second ignition
AND'd
with + in from Neutral Sense
=
Power to relay coil to close clutch switch

For the defroster, I would probably just use the 2nd Ignition output on my alarm, no sense in wasting a channel.
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Old 01-07-2003, 09:35 AM   #6
netZ
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Default Re: Re: Alarm, Remote Start, & Defroster...

duh, i had to reveiw my notes....

12 volts if in neutral, 0 volts if in gear... use a 12volt 30/40 amp relay to invert the 12 volts to ground for the black/white neutral safety wire.

other owners have tapped their hood pin to this wire and whenever the vehicle is in neutral and the alarm is armed, their alarm would get triggered. it would appear that this wire shows ground when the vehicle is in neutral.

your best bet is to test with a digital multimeter. attach your red probe to a 12 volt source and use the black probe on the neutral wire. if the meter shows 12 volts while the vehicle is in neutral, then it's a negative wire, if it shows 0 volts then it's a postive wire.

if the neutral safety wire off the ecu is negative, then you can just connect it directly to the black/white wire off the viper 550esp. if it's postive, you will need to invert it to ground, a relay or a low current voltage inverter will do.

just don't use a 12 volt light tester, you may fry either the ecu and/or the neutral switch on the transmission.

i believe the viper needs to check the neutral safety before the status output.

btw, you didn't mention if you have the Subaru Upgrade Security system or not... if so, you will need to remove all the parts of the system etc...

netZ

Quote:
Originally posted by quynce


Thanks for the reply. I was hoping you would jump in on this. I am putting in a DEI unit.

The problem with wiring the neutral safety wire from the ECU directly to the black/white wire is that the ECU throws 12V in neutral, and 0 (ground?) in gear, so it would have the opposite effect, hence the two relays.

Regarding the status output (blue) wire, do you know if it transmits before or after checking the neutral safety wire? Thanks again.

josh

Last edited by netZ; 01-07-2003 at 10:57 AM.
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Old 01-07-2003, 09:42 AM   #7
netZ
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unless the 2nd ignition output can trigger a momentary pulse. as far as i know the 2nd ignition output will engage through the entire remote start life cycle till you press the brake, over rev, under rev, open the engine hood etc to shut down the remote start cycle.

if your 2nd or 4th channel isn't being used, why not?

netZ

Quote:
Originally posted by mikkyo
I dont like the 2 relay solution to this either.
be nice to have an AND gate or something on a relay.
+ in from second ignition
AND'd
with + in from Neutral Sense
=
Power to relay coil to close clutch switch

For the defroster, I would probably just use the 2nd Ignition output on my alarm, no sense in wasting a channel.
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Old 01-07-2003, 05:30 PM   #8
mikkyo
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I have the Ultrastart 4500M.
It has a configurable 2nd starter/ignition/accessory line. If in second starter mode, it should only output during crank correct?

The neutral sense wire in the WRX is definately +, shows 12V when tested against ground.
I think someone with an older RS had a neutral sense with ground.

It makes sense to configure the clutch bypass with the neutral sense wire and the alarm 2nd starter output, doesn't it?
I just don't like using 2 relays.

Pretty soon one's car is full of relays.
Click, kerchunk, click, clack, ticka ticka, tock, click, whee.
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Old 01-07-2003, 09:30 PM   #9
quynce
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Default

Thanks for your responses.

I was doing a remote start at work today and tested the status output, and it does not transmit unless it sees ground on the neutral wire, so that method is in the toilet. Now, it looks like I'll have to use three (!) relays to make the ECU's neutral wire bypass the clutch. One to change the starter signal to ground to trigger the second one, which will basically change the neutral wire to ground-in-neutral, and use that one to trigger the third...

Wait, I just thought of a better way. Two relays. Nevermind. That's a little better.

As for the defroster, I'm not using channel 3 or 4, so that's not a big deal.

netZ, I think what you were thinking of with hooking the neutral wire to the hood pin was setting off the alarm if the car were left in gear. It wouldn't actually set it off, but it would bypass it for alarm purposes, which wouldn't be good. Plus it would ground out if the hood was open. I was thinking diode, but I don't think that would work either.

Mikkyo, what's an AND gate?

I do have the OEM alarm, which will of course be disconncted. I think I fried the LED output on it trying to figure out how to hook it up to the a/m alarm. Crap.

Thanks again,

josh
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Old 01-08-2003, 09:03 AM   #10
netZ
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q,

can you verify the polarity of the neutral wire? ppl have been reporting it as a 12 volt when neutral and others have stated it shows ground when neutral.

unfortunately, i don't have a manual wrx handy at this moment. the best way to verify this wire is to use a digital multimeter. hook the red probe to a true 12 volt source and using the black probe to test the ecu neutral safety wire. if the vehicle is in neutral and the multi meter says 12 volts, the neutral safety wire is Ground, if it shows 0 volts then the neutral safety wire is positive.

or the other alternative is to use the handbrake to the neutral safety wire and use a 12volt relay for the clutch bypass, ie:

Pin 86 ECU Neutral Safety Wire
Pin 85 Blue status output
Pin 87 one wire off the clutch switch
Pin 30 other wire off the clutch switch

When you iniate the remote start it will check the Black/White to see ground and then as long as the vehicle is in Neutral, the relay will connect the 2 clutch wires and the starter should crank.

Be sure to use a 1 amp diode with the silver ring facing Pin 86 to avoid a voltage spike.


Let me know what your findings are.

netZ

Last edited by netZ; 01-08-2003 at 02:28 PM.
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Old 01-09-2003, 01:13 AM   #11
quynce
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I haven't metered it yet, I was going off the wiring diagram at ravensblad-impreza.com. I'll post the results when I do.

The status wire is no good for a negative trigger to the relay, it doesn't transmit until after checking for ground at neutral safety wire.

josh
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Old 01-09-2003, 01:51 AM   #12
mikkyo
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I checked earlier today.
Using 12V + on one lead of the multimeter and the neutral sense on the one the other, I got 12V.
I don't know why it shows voltage when testing against ground...
EDIT: OK After playing a bit more I have discovered that the neutral sense wire is really ground in Gear, which is why is shows voltage and a little current when tested against ground in neutral, but it isn't enough to power anything.
I had tried hooking up the Starter +12V to one side of the coil and the Neutral Sense to the other and then starting the car - No relay clicky. However, I noticed if I put the car into gear the relay would activate(NOT GOOD). So I decided for safety to go with 2 relays, one on the starter, to close the cutch switch, and the second, a Normally Closed one on the starter and Neutral Sense which OPENS the clutch switch if it is in gear. So the clutch switch connection goes through both realys in series, One closes with Current, the other opens with the car in gear.

What I have looks like this:
Relay 1 Normally Open - Clutch Bypass
Pin 87 One side of the clutch switch
Pin 30 Relay 2 pin 87a
Pin 86 12V + Starter out from alarm
Pin 85 Ground

Relay 2 Normally Closed - In gear bypass disconnect
Pin 87a Relay 1 pin 30
Pin 30 Other side of clutch switch
Pin 86 12V + Starter out from alarm
Pin 85 Neutral Sense (- when in gear)

I HIGHLY recommend when messing with your clutch bypass relays that you test all the wires with a multitester and, after hooking it all up, disconnect one of the clutch switch wires and try using the remote start. Simulate what happens both in gear and out of gear.
Then, once you have verified everything works as expected, take the car out on the street where you can't hit anything in front of you, and remote start the car. Then do it in gear. Then do it a few more times to be sure.
Standard Disclaimer applies.
Good Luck.

Last edited by mikkyo; 01-13-2003 at 12:26 AM.
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Old 01-13-2003, 12:28 AM   #13
mikkyo
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bump for safety
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Old 01-13-2003, 08:42 AM   #14
netZ
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your idea works as well, how about using 1 relay instead?

Pin 86 is connected to the Remote Start Ignition wire
Pin 87A is 1 of the Clutch switch wire
Pin 30 is the other Clutch switch wire
Pin 85 is your Neutral Sense wire off the ECU

if your vehicle is in gear the Clutch wire is not completed which prevents the starter from kicking in.

if you vehicle is in neutral, the relay stays normally closed... thus the Clutch wires are connected and you are able to remote start the vehicle.

also, you will be able to manual start the vehicle w/o pressing the clutch anymore, a byproduct of doing this setup.

also, be sure to hook up the black/white Neutral Safety wire off the viper unit to either a toggle switch to ground or attach it to the Handbrake. the viper checks this wire b4 iniating the remote start sequence.

netZ

Quote:
Originally posted by mikkyo
bump for safety

Last edited by netZ; 01-13-2003 at 08:52 AM.
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Old 01-13-2003, 10:26 PM   #15
mikkyo
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I didn't want to permanently defeat of the clutch switch.
The single relay method works fine, and I wish it could be set up for just the bypass and gear check, but sometimes others drive my car and I can use the extra safety. :-)
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Old 01-14-2003, 09:37 AM   #16
netZ
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it doesn't permanently defeat the clutch switch. it only connects the 2 clutch wires when the vehicle is in neutral.

netZ

Quote:
Originally posted by mikkyo
I didn't want to permanently defeat of the clutch switch.
The single relay method works fine, and I wish it could be set up for just the bypass and gear check, but sometimes others drive my car and I can use the extra safety. :-)
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Old 01-15-2003, 10:22 PM   #17
mikkyo
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Ah, I see now.
Why didn't I think of that?
Thanks!
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