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Old 11-17-2003, 11:58 AM   #1
downshift1
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Subaru Stars Looking to do Header Dyno Comparison

Ok heres how it's going to go down:

Alright looks like the tenative date for the test is going to be Dec.20 & 21st & 22nd.

Headers to be included:

GP Moto (4-2-1)
Gruppe-S
Cusco
Borla
Fujitsubo
GT Spec (Gen.II & Gen.III)

Cars to be included:

2002 WRX Stage 2
2002 WRX Sage 4 / FMIC & UTEC
2004 WRX STI (bone stock)

Test will run like this:

1st run: Base run
2nd run: Swap out manifolds for headers (to see bolt on effects)
3rd run: Correct AFRs to same as base run (to see nominal gains)
4th run: Repeat of 3rd run to show effects of heat soak on power curves due to less loss of heat energy to the steel from the exhaust gasses.

All headers will be wrapped with DEI thermal wrap (provided by DEI for the test)

Speed,Style,Sound magazine will be doing the write up to be published in thier magazine also. (thanks todd!)

Genesis Racing and Development's dyno-pacs will be used to measure the outcome.

Thanks for all the donations and help getting this test to be as objective as possible.

-Dylan

***RESULTS ARE IN POST 725***

Last edited by nhluhr; 01-30-2008 at 04:19 AM.
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Old 11-17-2003, 01:36 PM   #2
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Sounds good, can't wait to see some of the results. Why you don't you test the Brospeed manifold that way you cover the whole spectrum of headers out there for the WRX.
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Old 11-17-2003, 03:30 PM   #3
downshift1
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jvcastillo- Do you have one I can borrow for a little bit?

The manifolds I'm testing are the ones I can attain without much cost to me (I'm already going to go broke on dyno time )

If any one would like thier brand manifold tested I would be happy to include it in the test if you wouldn't mind lending it to me for a week.

-Dylan
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Old 11-17-2003, 04:31 PM   #4
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downshift1 - Great idea.....now lets see those charts goood luck with the comparison.
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Old 11-17-2003, 05:43 PM   #5
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What's the general consensus with header gains? 3-5hp?
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Old 11-17-2003, 06:26 PM   #6
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I would suggest logging with dd while you are on the dyno. You could the be assured you are getting similar timing, etc. If the numbers change, you at least may have reason why the dyno's may be different.

Greg
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Old 11-17-2003, 06:41 PM   #7
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Wow it's nice to see someone finally step it up a bit. Can't wait to see the results.
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Old 11-17-2003, 06:59 PM   #8
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Its about time someone stepped up to the plate.
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Old 11-17-2003, 07:02 PM   #9
KnightWRXRider_
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Put up your paypal address, I'd be willing to send like 10 bucks or so after I get paid this Friday. If you can get a bunch of people to do it, it would lower the cost a bit. Just a thought.
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Old 11-17-2003, 07:08 PM   #10
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Hey Dylan,

I replied about my GP Moto in the MWIC, PM or Email me if interested.

Larry
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Old 11-17-2003, 07:28 PM   #11
BLUETURBOWRX
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hey dylan,
I would like to see how my gruppe-s V2 manifold will perform with the 4-1 collector.. Its a great design i would love to see some dyno results on it.. thanks, eric
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Old 11-17-2003, 07:58 PM   #12
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Fully tuned to each header would be the best way to compare. Some of the headers have very similar characteristics others are wildly different.

I suspect fully tuned to the header they will likely produce similar results with a different location of peaks. What will be more telling is measuring the area under the torque curve for each. Other than for drag racing - enjoyment of daily driving, autox and track - peaks are relatively untelling.

Tuned to the header I would be willing to loan a jet-hot coated GT-Spec Gen. II (rev. 1) header and up pipe combo to your project. Sorry with the three bolt flange - the up pipe has to be included.

Ed.
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Old 11-17-2003, 09:03 PM   #13
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I also think that tuning should be considered. I suspect that just as with any other exhaust mod, headers will allow a more agressive tune which will be the real source of power. Without tuning, the results wouldn't be as important.

You're doing a great service to the subie community!

-- Ed
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Old 11-17-2003, 09:07 PM   #14
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Tuning would be great, of course, but you have to think of his wallet.
Tuning 3+ headers on a dyno=mucho $$$

Great idea though, Dylan, let us know what's up!

Scott
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Old 11-17-2003, 09:13 PM   #15
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I agree he is investing a lot for the community and by no means am knocking that. But I am questioning the value of the cost if the results aren't valid. Suppose in his testing header A is "best" but in an independent full tune test header D is? Which header would you want. Of course as I said I doubt there will be as much statistical difference as someone might be hoping for if they were all tuned.

We are dealing with a poor layout for a single turbo on the side. Even the equal length don't get the benefit you would hope for since they are rarely equal backpressure due to design necessitities. The flat four really should be a dual turbo or a single turbo should have its exhaust inlet centered behind the motor with equal length and mirror design 4-2-1 - with a 2-1 for each head.
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Old 11-17-2003, 09:17 PM   #16
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He doesn't necessarily need to tune each header on the dyno. With the proper tools a road tune is all that's necessary. Also, have you contacted any of the dyno shops around you with this idea? I'd be willing to bet they'll be willing to give you a break on the price for such a good cause and maybe a mention of their name. Either way its worth a shot.

-- Ed
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Old 11-17-2003, 09:26 PM   #17
turboICE
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vaus
He doesn't necessarily need to tune each header on the dyno. With the proper tools a road tune is all that's necessary. Also, have you contacted any of the dyno shops around you with this idea? I'd be willing to bet they'll be willing to give you a break on the price for such a good cause and maybe a mention of their name. Either way its worth a shot.

-- Ed
I agree with the first point - close enough for Subie work. I also actually agree with the rest when you consider every dyno is going to be plastered with the shop's information and then referenced time and again. Of course the most favorable shop would be one that prior to the testing did not sell any of the above - but you can't expect everything.

Whatever the final format and whatever the outcome you should be commended for the service to the community.
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Old 11-17-2003, 09:56 PM   #18
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It kind of depends on the engine management. A stock ECU would do poorly on the first one and better on successive ones due to its learning. If you've got a UTEC or some other way to specify absolute timing, a timing/fuel tune of the first one and left alone for the rest would be good, but would still favor the one it was tuned on.

I'd almost think it would be better to flow-bench test them, but then that doesn't take exhaust dynamics (pulsing, etc) into account.

Oof. Good luck. I'm sure the results will be better than nothing. I'm not trying to be discouraging...
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Old 11-17-2003, 10:01 PM   #19
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Do you have delta dash? I've found the road dyno to be quite accurate and consistent. If funds are really low, the road dyno will provide good enough results if performed under similar conditions. It also aids a lot in tuning.

-- Ed
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Old 11-17-2003, 10:13 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by jehcpa

We are dealing with a poor layout for a single turbo on the side. Even the equal length don't get the benefit you would hope for since they are rarely equal backpressure due to design necessitities. The flat four really should be a dual turbo or a single turbo should have its exhaust inlet centered behind the motor with equal length and mirror design 4-2-1 - with a 2-1 for each head.
Too bad the mission's back there eh?
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Old 11-17-2003, 10:22 PM   #21
turboICE
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Not exactly. It has already been done over the trans by someone who works for a Japanese company just can't find the article now - it was featured in an import mag.

Charge goes over the engine, front mount intercooler with side outlets to custom seperate intake manifolds and dual throttle bodies.

Last edited by turboICE; 11-17-2003 at 10:28 PM.
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Old 11-17-2003, 10:52 PM   #22
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Jun's car has a turbo that sits on the firewall above the transmission. Unfortunately that turbo layout doesn't work very well on a LHD car because if you have the outlet of the turbo facing forward, the exhaust is going to be on the left hand side, and on our cars the steering rack/clutch/brake cylinder are sort of in the way. The boxer layout begs for a bi-turbo setup, unfortunately room is a little tight in an impreza chassis. Imagine a turbo basically right off the manifold on both sides of the car feeding into a fmic back into a flipped intake manifold, with dual exhaust out the side.




I might lend an exhaust-wrapped Borla header for the project.
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Old 11-18-2003, 12:22 AM   #23
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Wish you had a GTSpec GenII header in that line up (I just bought one).. Curious to know what I can expect.

Jay
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Old 11-18-2003, 12:36 AM   #24
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^that is the one I was recalling dwx - I didn't say it had been done LHD though, just that it had been done.

I agree that while the boxer deserves biturbos - and that the impreza to date have not facilitated doing it very well. My point was that with the crossover we lose so much that I suspect tuned to the design of the header the difference among headers in results likely won't be that much.
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Old 11-18-2003, 04:45 AM   #25
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I'd go for twin td0413g-L turbos... surprised nobody sells the Legacy Blitzen twin turbo manifolds... That engine is a EJ20 with twins.

Jay
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