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Old 01-02-2001, 03:09 PM   #1
Digital_Boy
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Exclamation Sent my Sube off to the shop to get transmogrified!

Well, now's when the big changes start happening. So far, I've only had STi seats in the car, and relatively minor mods. Now it gets serious. The drivetrain should be done mechanically in a couple of days, hopefully at which time it'll get a turbo system installed!

So now the waiting begins, and I have to reacquaint myself with my Neon ACR.
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Old 01-02-2001, 03:13 PM   #2
Stranger
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As for turbo, I would recomend ASR.
I have their turbo kit on mycar, and it's really nice + it's close to you (Irwine).
What are you doing to your drivetrain?
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Old 01-02-2001, 03:27 PM   #3
Mizen
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Cool

You lucky Dog!!
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Old 01-02-2001, 10:57 PM   #4
Digital_Boy
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Cool

Well, Rally Knight has the car. I am their first real customer, so I'm getting consideration for labor and pricing on in house sourced parts.

I'm going to spend the extra $1K and go with a Motec ECU, since the unit has SO much more to it than a Haltec or TEC-2. Sure, there's a lot of features I will never use, but there are a LOT of features that I *will* use too. Like the fact that their 4EAT conversion, which I think is probably the best idea for a street car, will be controlled via the MOTEC as well.

Once the turbo is on and tuned, the engine will be removed and dyno'd to make sure it performs as advertised. Then back into the car, and into my eager hands!

Then I can get to work spiffing up the interior and adding a few creature comforts.
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Old 01-03-2001, 01:57 AM   #5
Kevin Thomas
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Question

Um, not to sound like an as*hole or anything but like Stranger asked above, what are you doing to your drivetrain?

Stranger, do you have the twin turbo setup?
Just curious since a 'streetracing' friend of mine has been waiting for this setup since November. Take Care!

[This message has been edited by Kevin Thomas (edited January 03, 2001).]
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Old 01-03-2001, 02:08 AM   #6
Imprezer
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Quote:
Once the turbo is on and tuned, the engine will be removed and dyno'd to make sure it performs as advertised. Then back into the car, and into my eager hands!
Good luck driving that car on the streets, then. An engine tuned to perfection on the dyno will never be "perfect" on the streets. No matter how good the dyno, the tuner or your favorite MOTEC is, the dyno will never represent the "real world" that engine will be used in. It is obvious and I don't understand how you can overlook this very important bit of info.
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Old 01-03-2001, 03:34 AM   #7
Digital_Boy
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Stranger, it will be a single turbo setup, since twin turbo's on an EJ25 are basically a waste of money, and would be a nightmare to install and tune properly.

The turbo is a Garrett, IIRC, with a watercooled center bearing. The plumbing and such will pretty much look like many of the other Sube turbo kits. There're only so many ways to mount a turbo on these cars and have them fit the confines of the engine bay.

The real trick part of this kit is the Motec and the maps that Leading Edge and Rally Knight have developed for it over the past couple of years for street driven cars. (that's when Jon Ryther began work with LE on the rally cars.)

_____________________________________________

Imprezer, lay down the bong.

Tuning on the dyno is the most reliable way to test the effects of a modification. You're overlooking the fact that in the dyno cell, you can control the environment the engine sees. You can change one variable at a time to test the results without having to worry about other environmental factors affecting your data. You can simulate most any condition that the engine will see in an engine bay in the dyno cell.

I guess John Lingenfelter and Reeves Callaway are rank amatuers, since they dyno tune their engines extensively before they sell them to the end customer.

I guess Smokey Yunick won so many races and titles because he was lucky, not because he dyno'd his engines to get the most out of them. Even though, to paraphrase his words, the dyno is the most important tool in his shop to build high output engines.

Sure, the 3 examples above also track test their cars extensively, but to say "good luck driving a perfectly dyno tuned engine" like it's tuned for perfect conditions only is ludicrous. A dyno allows you to experiment with intake and exhaust combinations without the hassle of yanking the engine to make a minor adjustment. You also don't have to deal with trying to calculate drivetrain loss. I do agree with Shiv that until one starts making an obscene amount of torque and HP that drivetrain loss is fixed, not a set percentage of your engine's torque output, it's still an imprecise way to gauge the engine's true output. So many variables change from run to run... The trans may have cooled down a bit, and will give slightly different numbers from run to run, hence making measurement of an adjustment or a new modification all that more difficult and ambiguous.

Did my tweek hurt the performance, or is the transmission cooler/hotter than the last run?

I still don't know a whole lot about LE, but what I do know is they're a very big name in the sand rail and sand dragster community, and they've been playing the turbo Subaru game a lot longer than most of their domestic contemporaries, on the order of 15 years or more, IIRC. Who else on this board can claim that breadth and depth of experience building hi output Subaru engines? Cobb Tuning and Vishnu Performance, as good as they are, are in their infancies in comparison.
_____________________________________________

If you want to bring up the arguement that dyno numbers are largely useless and that 1/4 mile and 0-60 times are the true measurement of a modification, you have a very limited point. They're useful tools, but, as Shiv is so fond of pointing out, often have more to do with the driver than the modification.

You'll note, I did *NOT* claim that this would make me capable of hunting down Corvettes, Porsche 911 Turbos, etcetera. That is where it becomes a matter of the driver being the limiting factor in the performance equation. I fully believe that when the car is done, and broken in, that, in the hands of a skilled driver, it WILL be capable of embarassing a lot of high dollar machines. Maybe not with me at the wheel, but from a numbers standpoint, yes.

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Old 01-03-2001, 03:56 AM   #8
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I can't comment on using a engine dyno since I've only seen it done on a V8 but I have seen alot of JDM hi output cars tuned on a rolling dyno and that has to be the best way to tune a car. Guessing at it while the car is parked is no way to tune a car. Especially if you can have a professional tune it for you on a rolling four wheel dyno for $500. That or tear off a couple dyno runs $60.
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Old 01-03-2001, 06:46 AM   #9
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Sounds interesting. Different, for sure.

I read what you posted about Rally Knight using modified 4EATs for rallying, behind a supercharged EJ series. (EJ25, right?)

That probably works fine because the SC makes boost down low, which means a stock torque converter can be used with great results. I would think it wouldn't work as well with a turbo since it probably wouldn't make boost as low, unless it was variable-vaned or the motor didn't rev very high.

Then again I've never driven a turbo automatic Subaru.
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Old 01-03-2001, 11:55 AM   #10
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Digital_Boy, I will just drop it right here. Why? Because I can see what is happening. You are overexcited, brainwashed NA Impreza owner that is trying to make your pipe dreams of turbocharging come true. Been there, done that. No offence. Just update us on when it's all said and done.

-Peace.
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Old 01-04-2001, 12:24 AM   #11
Stranger
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I don't have a twin turbo. it's 1 nice looking turbine
And I don't see a reason to go to a twinturbo setup, unless you really need it.
MOTEC? WOW, that this is insane. 'but it's way too complicated for me.


As for a turbo... mine sits where cruse control used to sit, and it has some free room around too now. so it's preaty nice.
I'll try to take some pictures soon.
But I still don't get what are you doing to the drivetrain.

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Old 01-03-2001, 06:54 PM   #12
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Hold on now! I guess I must get invovled for once.
First off I don't post, boast or anything on any board for this exact reason.
Imprezer read the quote: Turbo installed and tuned (ON THE CAR) What's the arguement here.
Then removed and installed on the dyno in car configuration and run to get the dyno sheets from that. Both dyno sheets engine and wheel dyno will be availble.
Thats what everyone is crying about,got to have dyno sheets,everything is BS until then.
Does everyone want dyno sheets from the race cars. NO
They run on 110 and have no emissions whatso ever.
Terry is very excited yes,brainwashed I doubt it.
He is getting the first production run of parts, not prototypes. Most importantly he is very careful and doubts everything.
Can't think of a better customer to start with than one that doesn't believe you.
Everyone can be as doubtful and pessimestic as they want but I don't pay attention to any of it.
Everyone seems to know more than the next.
Do we claim to be the best NO.
Do we claim to have the most power NO.
Do we flame anyone NO.
Do we tell them what to do NO.
Once we have done everything that we can and we suceed or not, I still will never flame anyone discredit anyones parts or otherwise.
The subaru's are fun and I just want to make them go fast.
You can come and see what we are doing or you can sit and flame to your hearts content.
Still I am the one with the now three car race team, I'm the one with the 300,000 or so spent on everything (engines,trans,semi-trucks ProRally season) but i'm not the only one to benefit from what I am doing.
Right now Terry will benefit.
If I suceed so will others. It takes money to go fast and make parts.
So far it is a small group that is doing just that and I have never seen monster flames coming from any of them (Shiv, Trey, CTC, BPM, MRT, SPD)
Really I am just happy to one of the ones actually doing it.

Jonathan Ryther
VP Opertations
Knight Steel INC.
RallyKnight INC.
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Old 01-03-2001, 07:14 PM   #13
Nick
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Not to be the voice of reason here... but all I think Imprezer was trying to say was that a car no matter how perfectly tuned on the dyno will always see some other 'conditions' that you just can't account for while tuning on the dyno.

I agree with you 100% that you can tune the car perfectly... for near perfect conditions. But what about tuning for temp, weather, grad (determining starting/lugging engine load), testing the car down to stall speeds then seeing how it will react to it. Will the fuel delivery be able to react quick enough so that the car won't stall in traffic or sudden on/off gas inputs? These are the sort of things you cannot tune for on the dyno. You can try to get as close as possible and nearly tune the engine, but there is always some amount of variable you just can't figure in until you drive the car on a daily basis.

Now if this is a track car and it will never be daily driven... then I agree totally... you can tune it perfectly with just a dyno. But I believe this, like my car with a TEC-II + Turbo, is a daily driver.

Just my .05 cents, cause I've been there... and I've done that. (Oh... so has Imprezer, but he did it the hard way and I really value his input because of it)

-Nick
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Old 01-03-2001, 07:26 PM   #14
Jay_UK
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Hi guys,

I am lazy, so I wont type as much.

But from my experiences of engine building and tuning, engines are base mapped on engine dynos where conditions can be held and repeated to obtain the best for those conditions and the targets have been met.

But once the engine is introduce into the car and the car is driven those conditions will change. Hence most the time the map is tweaked once the car is running and driven. This is to take into aco**** discrepencies like Nick has pointed out with breathing, climate, driving style, heat, etc.

Terry/Rally Knight.. I am very interested with this project and would love to be kept informed... I have a genuine interest (hobby) with tunning Subarus.

J.

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Old 01-03-2001, 07:29 PM   #15
Imprezer
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Hi Jonathan,

Since you don't read the board, please take a look at this post by Digital_Boy. http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/Foru...ML/000810.html where I had another argument with him regarding your turbo kit and said:

Quote:
By no means this all is meant to diss Leading Edge or Ralli Knight. I just think that there are a lot of flaws, misunderstanding and misconceptions in Digital Boy's arguments.
That is exactly my point. I repeat myself, I don't doubt your experience or knowledge by any means. When I said brainwashed, I meant that he talked to you and had you working on his car and after that he thinks that he knows it all and he is always correct. If you read the last few threads where he posted about you guys you will understand what I meant. There are a lot of misconceptions and misunderstandings on his behalf and that is what I was trying to point out.

Does Rally Knight know their stuff? YES OF COURSE.
Did Digital_Boy became a Supertuner in 2 nights? NO NO and NO again.

Now welcome to the board and good luck this season Rallying.

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Old 01-03-2001, 07:54 PM   #16
RallyKnight
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Well being new to this whole thing I will try to read the board more often.
I do welcome any and all replies, My e-mail is posted.
I am extremly busy and will try to keep everyone up to date with the progress and hope that the real information is read and understood.
The kit Terry is getting has been tested on my personal car and dyno'd. But I felt that a customer car was needed to justify the kit.
I can't and will not try to stop anyone from posting anything about what we are doing but it is still only bunk unless it comes from someone in our organizations.
Thanks for the insight to the previous post Imprezer and NickCat and anything that you would like to know I will gladly inform you.

Jonathan Ryther


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Old 01-03-2001, 08:37 PM   #17
Digital_Boy
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Alex,

Do I think I'm a "super tuner"? No. I don't think I've ever said, or implied, that I "know it all". What I have done is argue some technical points when contested by others. I've relayed information that I gathered while learning about these cars, and have been challenged on it, and have challenged right back. If you tell me I'm wrong, you'd best have factual data to show me where I'm in error. I, in turn, will do my level best to gather factual data to support my position.

I don't know where your animosity comes from. I'm simply relaying information as I get it, and gathering more information in turn to ask more detailed questions. I don't claim to be the root source of knowledge of anything.

If I've bruised your ego about your knowledge of these cars, so be it. I've been gathering information from varied sources for the last year and more, and now feel comfortable that I'm sufficiently knowledgable to not get suckered by someone making outrageous claims.

I heard about Rally Knight from ravent and ARG, and went up to their shop to see what they were about. I've been investigating as time allows, and have found that every claim Jonathon has made has been grounded in fact.

I've shared my findings with the rest of the I Club, since I feel it would be beneficial for those who can't do as I have and drop in and visit the shop in person.

Believe me, I've grilled Jonathon many times on the phone for an hour or two at a time. I've asked very technical questions about the engines, the CARB approval process, the transmission problems, the turbo failures he's experienced with his personal race car, and a variety of other issues. I take NOTHING on faith. I've been doing the same with Paul Guard in regards to his possible foray into manufacturing Subaru gearsets.

I don't claim to be able to tune a 450HP, daily drivable Subaru engine that will run on 92 octane. I do believe that I'm well enough informed to know when I'm being fed a line of BS and when someone is making realistic claims. I *DO* have a background in automotive technology, I studied it for 2 years in college before switching to electronics as a career. I have also worked in the automotive repair sector (at the time I was studying it in college) and felt that a career in the repair and maintenance sector wouldn't be to my liking. I feel that if I had the chance, I'd love to work in the racing side of the automotive world.
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Old 01-03-2001, 09:06 PM   #18
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Terry/Jonathan,

Can you please detail the modifications that will be undertaken to the engine.

I am curious to the work that will be undertaken, or is this classified ?

J.
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Old 01-03-2001, 09:20 PM   #19
Digital_Boy
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Also, like Jon clarified, I did not say that the car would be dyno tuned only. To

quote:Once the turbo is on and tuned, the engine will be removed and dyno'd to make sure it performs as advertised. Then back into the car, and into my eager hands!

Where does that imply that the car will be exclusively engine-dyno tuned?

To follow the context, I was saying that Leading Edge would assemble the engine, tune it (on dyno and in car) then test it in car, then pull it out to dyno it on an engine dyno to record the results, then back into the car.

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Old 01-03-2001, 09:26 PM   #20
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Terry, it is very hard to bruise and even hurt my knowledge about these or any other car. I only know what I know and I don't blow up my posts up to 2000 words to sound like I know more than others. When I don't know something or not sure about it I keep my Russian speaking mouth shut. I might know some very technical stuff but at the same time I can ask people very simple technical questions to make sure that I "know it right" or if I don't know it at all.

Like Jonathan said all you have said is "still only bunk unless it comes from someone in our organizations" (J.R.).

So, good luck with your project and let us know how it goes. In the meanwhile, stop blowing smoke in people's faces. You like going Shakespeare and bring up names like Lingenfelter and Callaway but at the same time you fail to answer a simple question. You still haven't answered a question Andrew (Stranger) asked you about your drivetrain.

BTW, have you ever had a turbo car before?

Cheers,

P.S. Please give my props to Jonathan when you see him.
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Old 01-03-2001, 09:32 PM   #21
Digital_Boy
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Jay,

The Rally Knight/Leading Edge kit I am getting at this time is rated at 300HP, and approximately the same amount of torque. It requires no internal engine modifications.

It will utilize either a Haltec E6K or Motec M4 (not 100% sure on the exact Motec model) ECU. In CARB legal trim, both of these ECU's will be modified from their manufacturers to prohibit end user reprogrammability, to satisfy CARB regulations.

I am opting to go with the Motec since I feel I will, at some point in the future, want to upgrade to Rally Knight's pending 450HP CARB package, which is only available with the Motec ECU. It's $1K more expensive (based on what I know currently, I'll be talking to Jon tomorrow after he's talked with Leading Edge about prices) than the Haltec kit at the 300HP level, but will allow more flexibility in controlling other features, and in data logging capability.

At this time, I am torn between going with the Rally Knight developed 4EAT or sourcing a set of dog gears from either MRT in Australia or from Guard Transmission in Hawaii. Bith have their advantages and drawbacks. For now, I think I will have to baby the transmission once I get the car back in turbo form, until things are decided on the transmission. The 4EAT has a lot going for it if it can solve the problem of the fragile Subaru manual gearbox.

What else would you like to know?
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Old 01-03-2001, 09:43 PM   #22
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Thanks for that...

I assumed you were going for the "Full Monty" and going for a complete rebuild.

Whats involved with the 450 kit ?

I assume you will be fitting the M48 pro ? not the M4 ?

How do they make the Motec CARB ? by locking it with a code ?

J.
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Old 01-03-2001, 09:50 PM   #23
Digital_Boy
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Alex, I haven't been "blowing smoke". I'd say it could be called "blowing smoke" if I didn't qualify my statements with the proviso that I was relaying claims from another source (i.e. Jon Ryther/Rally Knight). But unless my memory is failing me, I do believe I have prefaced my posts with just such a qualification.

Edit:
And, as for "going Shakespeare", I am merely pointing out the obvious. The "big names", like Callaway, Lingenfelter, and others like Dinan, AMG, etcetera, all share a common trait, their parts are all tested first and fine tuned in the dyno cell, and then tuned some more on the track and on a chassis dyno.

I did answer Stranger's (and Jay's) questions about the engine, now that I've addressed other issues.

No, I haven't owned a turbo car, yet. You've got a few months lead on me there.



[This message has been edited by Digital_Boy (edited January 03, 2001).]
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Old 01-03-2001, 09:58 PM   #24
Imprezer
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Actually my Impreza is still in the garage at the moment. I am doing on the work on it myself and it should be done pretty soon. It should turn out pretty good.

I owned a turbo car before, so I have about 2.5 year lead on ya. I have a 280 flywheel HP FWD AT Eclipse.

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Old 01-03-2001, 10:00 PM   #25
Digital_Boy
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Jay,

No "full monty" for me. Yet. I think that 300HP and torque will be more than enough for me for a while. I think if I went straight from a 100HP FWD to 450HP+ AWD car, I'd end up splattered on the back end of a semi (lorry to you).

That, and, realistically, I can't afford to do the whole car in one fell swoop. For the price of the 450HP package, I wouldn't be able to afford much else. With the 300HP package, I'll be able to upgrade brakes, suspension, exterior, interior to keep up with the added power.

I'm not entirely sure which Motec the Rally Knight kit will utilize, to be perfectly honest. It could be an M4, or it may well be the M48, or even an M8. That's just one more detail that needs to be addressed.

Edit: Sorry, didn't see the question about the CARB part. I can conjecture on how they'd lock it out. I know of several ways it can be odone, but I don't know which method Motec or Leading Edge will use to prevent end user reprogramming. A code seems likely, since that's how Motec turns options on and off in their different ECU's. As I understand it, they're all mechanically identical, and to upgrade one to the next level, you take it to a dealer, and they plug it into a fixture and enter a code to unlock more features.


[This message has been edited by Digital_Boy (edited January 03, 2001).]
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