Its all over. I don' t see Subaru dominating WRC anymore.

Imprezer · 10-21-2000, 01:17 PM

Thats right. If right now, with current, smaller and lighter car they cannot keep up with those annoying Pugs and Focuses, I don't see how they are planning on doing with a bigger and heavier bug-eyed Impreza. That sukcs.

Look at Mitsu. They also have muchos problemos. Thats too bad that real driver skill and real cars can be beaten by rookies driving tiny cheater cars.

Its like when I play Tekken with my friends and he always beats me, becasue he plays with Eddy. With that player you can just jamon all the buttons and you win. Where I spend hours perfecting my moves and still loose. Hehe.

Fish · 10-21-2000, 01:25 PM

heh, I like the Tekken refernce..

yeah.. eddy sucks.. real cheater character..

I always played with paul or xing..

Robert · 10-21-2000, 02:18 PM

Hey, Baek was the man in Tekken 2

He had the most intricate and devastating combo. Can't believe they dropped him in 3, although a couple characters stole some of his moves. Is he back in Tag Team?

Although I agree with the size comment, I don't think any of the drivers in the WRC are "rookies." They should have a power/weight ratio limit or something.

N/A · 10-21-2000, 03:59 PM

Well eventually they may end up with a weight requirement like some of the other racing leagues. That would put it back onto a level playing field. Its too bad though. I don't agree with a weight requirement since I see it as forcing other companies to keep the status qou rather then doing some research and design into new models and better specs. If the Peugots bother you just remember how badly they did in the UK JD Power Survey this year. They were rated one of the worst companies and had some of the lower end cars in their line up. Meanwhile Subaru had control of the top ten best cars. The Impreza wasn't the #1 anymore though. The Forester was #7 this year with the Impreza coming in #2 only because the Legacy was now the #1 car in satisfaction, service, reliability, customer care by dealers and a few other things. Hell even Skoda had a car that was either in the top ten or just outside of it.

Hoopster · 10-21-2000, 04:14 PM

I thought there was a minimum weight requirement for WRC Group A.

From the SWRT site :
Car weight: 1230kgs
(WRC regulation min.)

So, it can't be weight...

SkToBe · 10-21-2000, 04:15 PM

Weight restrictions? Sounds like turning the WRC into NASCAR??!!

N/A · 10-21-2000, 04:20 PM

If you really wanted it to be equal cars then you'd have the car makers work together to build one car that is the only car raced in WRC. Then the test would be driver skill. Then again it would take away bragging rights to the racing and the car makers wouldn't want to be part of it. If we want to have a WRC then we're just going to have to live with competition. Besides would we have liked it it Subaru was made to add extra weight or use a larger Legacy because they were doing to good?

michael harris · 10-21-2000, 04:45 PM

don't forget FORD, PEUGEOT, and the other EUROcars, they were winning rally championships, when subaru was making JUSTIN 1.2L.
Like it or note, the Europians knows there s....t!

Kostamojen · 10-21-2000, 06:59 PM

Here are some scary movies to help prove his point...

http://www.racecar.co.uk/fordfocus/contents.html

Shift *BOOM* shift *BOOM*

Hoopster · 10-21-2000, 07:26 PM

Wow, driver was a little scary there !

ASNG · 10-21-2000, 11:05 PM

What???...no doughnuts or drifts?!

What a wuss!!

ASNG

markus · 10-21-2000, 11:33 PM

Oh yee of little faith.

Remeber guys, the Impreza is one of the oldest WRC platform out there. The Peugot is newer, the Focus is newer, the Mitsu is newer. Next season they'll have the newer Impreza platform.

Rumour has it that the new Imprezas drive much better than our present platforms, bug-eyes and all.

Kostamojen · 10-21-2000, 11:44 PM

Oh the new Impreza is going to be a dream to drive... Just get over the bug eyes and buy one! (Seriously, whats wrong with round headlights? Theyre actually more asthetically correct on this car anyway *cough* Art Major *cough*)

Im just as enthusiastic over the possibility of some kind of rally-inspire focus showing up in American showrooms! Heck, even the Bug (TSR? I forget the name) Rally version is awefully intreaging... Im just lucky not to have any prejeduce towards certain brands like most people enough to be enthusiastic about them!

Snoopy · 10-22-2000, 01:02 AM

The Imprezas are doing well despite the smaller Peugeots and Fords' cars advantage in manuverability. I bet ya if Toyota were still racing their Corolla, things would be a lot different.

In all of the gravel events, the Imprezas were in the top 3 leader boards until the car had mechanical problems or crashed which benefitted the Peugeots and Fords. On the tarmac events, Burns is not a tarmac specialist, Jean Joseph is still new to Subaru as well as Petter Solberg. And remember, Panizzi and Delacour are tarmac specialists. The Subarus did well enough on tarmac until Burns crashed it on this event though at the Corsica rally, the smaller cars really shined through with their advantage in shorter, wider dimensions on the twisty tarmacs. Ford and Peugeot kicked the rear ends of Subaru and Mitsus.

The current WRC Impreza is already using the "new" engine of the upcoming Impreza. They introduced it at the Argentina Rally, I think. They were just using the old body shell. So next year's Impreza will be the same inside, just a stiffer new shell on the outside is about all the change we'll see.

What we need is to get hired guns like what Subaru did in 1997. Keep Burns as the lead driver, but hire specialists for the tarmac and snow events. In that year, Subaru hired Liatti for the tarmac events(which he won a few and placed no less than 2nd) and hired Kenneth Erikson for the snow(where he won the first round and placed 2nd in the next). Those were crucial manufacturer's points for Subaru. McRae lost by only one point to Makinenen that year.

Next year, we'll have a more "Impreza experienced" snow specialist like Petter Solberg and tarmac specilist like Jean-Joseph(if Subaru keeps him). Burns will still be a contender along with Gronholm.

rsquire · 10-22-2000, 02:29 AM

Impreze...

Check my old threads.. I think I predicted this in about May or June.. But I did think it would be next year not this..

Aahhh well never mind next year will be worse as the Focus come on stream in addition to the Pugs.

Whoops oh well..

Prediction for next year.. Gronholm #1 McRae #2 or maybe vice versa

Richard

roninscar · 10-22-2000, 10:35 AM

Ok, lets not get crazy here. First of all, you can actually BUY the Imp, try getting an awd focus or pug, THEY DON"T EXIST!! What this means is that WRC class C (or N or whatever it is) cars aren't particularly close to their road going brethren, aside from engine location, and more importantly in this case, wheel location. The stock new one is heavier, my guess is it will be at the weight requirement in racing trim, but has wider tracks front and rear, this will help in the handling dept.

The pug and focus have no overhangs which can help the car rotate in turns, more centralized mass, and that advantage doesn't go away entirely, although I think they pushed the wheels out to the corners a bit, on the new Imp.

Bottom line is, racing is great and all, but my bucks go to the company that brings that to the street.

GO TEAM SUBARU!!!

matt7184 · 10-22-2000, 02:11 PM

You can get an AWD focus...... just not in America or right now (its called the Cosworth).

Imprezer · 10-22-2000, 07:16 PM

There is no production AWD Focus. Cosworth Focus isn't out yet.

montgog · 10-22-2000, 09:44 PM

The Cosworth is being planned. Very limited numbers, more so than the Escort was.

Tim K. · 10-23-2000, 06:49 AM

The Impreza is still within striking distance of the championship. It was the only car in the latest rally to even come close to the Pugs on an all tarmac event. Burns retired because he pushed too hard into a second gear corner and understeered into a rock. The subsequent damage to the radiator allowed all the coolant to drain frying the motor by the time he got back to service.

One of the biggest disadvantages Subaru has on tarmac events are the tires. Thankfully the tire manufacturer has done work on new compounds for the Subaru.

The car is still one of the best on gravel stages. I think Burns stands a good chance to win the Rally of Great Britian. He might even take the last two giving him the championship.

All the cars in the WRC actually add weight to make the legal limit. There is a plug of lead under the driver's and co-driver's seats raising the weight to the legal limit.

Remember, Tommi is the 4-time World Champ. Thats 4 times in a row. Its damned hard to keep a streak like that alive.

Gambit · 10-23-2000, 06:55 AM

Gee thanks for the vote of confidence el presidente.

Is it me or is our President is jumping ship to start a new Peuguot-206.com bbs?!

Geezer · 10-23-2000, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Look at Mitsu. They also have muchos problemos. Thats too bad that real driver skill and real cars can be beaten by rookies driving tiny cheater cars.

Imprezer,
Are you kidding? Pannizzi and Delecour are not rookies! They were driving in the WRC when Burns was a spotty youth in Peugoet 205s.
Peugeot, Ford and Subaru are virtually identical in terms of performance. Tyres and driver are the main difference.

Personally I would like to see McRae win it, as he is the best driver, but I would settle for Burns as champion as he is British. However, I fear he does not have the experience to do the business under pressure, as he has shown this year, with a series of unforced errors.

Geezer

SRI Performance · 10-24-2000, 12:19 AM

ford sucks, i hate them and i'm still pissed about Colin Mcrea leaving Subaru for an american car, what a wimp!!!
You'll see me up there in the rankings in about 3 yrs.
even though were not winning WRC, we are kicking butt in the Pro Classes

8Complex · 10-24-2000, 12:48 AM

I wouldn't quite jump, Alex... There are a lot of changes done to make the car better all-around.

According to that brochure thing posted last week, changes made that I could see helping:

Redesigned intake ports
Redesigned pistons
Intercooler position altered (not sure if applicable to WRC car tho)
Front lower control arms aluminum on WRX's (is this new? not sure...)
Front track width has been increased
Rear roll center lifted 33mm (tho they claim same as WRC car, but maybe the WRC car will have it lifted even more)
Windshield wiper system improved (hey, it helps..)
Can't forget the Halogen headlights now...
Body/frame rigidity highly improved

I think all those can contribute to a better handling car, and possibly help on the course. Of course, a more insane driver would help as well. Gotta get someone that'll outdrive McRae.

Paul UK · 10-23-2000, 01:11 PM

Word on the street, well actually from a friend who works there, is that the WRC Mitsubishi for next year has not been signed off yet, this , allegedly

, is due to wrangleing with the powers that be over exact spec they will be allowed to run. In my view the Impreza will have a better chance next year as essentially they are using a more developed car.

I've noticed a bit of confusion over the regulation each team is runnning to.

WRC is a set of regs and doesn't describe the whole series

Group A is the set of regs most manufatures used to run under, Mitsubishi still do (they will be running WRC next year)

Apparantly it is possible to build a Group A car a lot better than a WRC car, but the compromises for homologation for the production car are not worthwhile. Homolgation refers to raod cars built to a similar spec as regards suspension mounting points and componant positioning among others. Group A is much more restictive than WRC.

Group N is "showroom" spec and modificatins broadly speaking are safety related only.

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10-21-2000, 01:17 PM	#1
Imprezer Dynamic Uno Member#: 1 Join Date: Jun 1999 Chapter/Region: BAIC Location: Alameda, CA Vehicle: 2011 Impreza WRX STi Black	Its all over. I don' t see Subaru dominating WRC anymore. Thats right. If right now, with current, smaller and lighter car they cannot keep up with those annoying Pugs and Focuses, I don't see how they are planning on doing with a bigger and heavier bug-eyed Impreza. That sukcs. Look at Mitsu. They also have muchos problemos. Thats too bad that real driver skill and real cars can be beaten by rookies driving tiny cheater cars. Its like when I play Tekken with my friends and he always beats me, becasue he plays with Eddy. With that player you can just jamon all the buttons and you win. Where I spend hours perfecting my moves and still loose. Hehe.

10-21-2000, 01:25 PM	#2
Fish RIP Sirkbac Member#: 869 Join Date: Feb 2000 Chapter/Region: NESIC Location: Nashua NH Vehicle: 1987 GPZ-750 TURBO 90' MX-5/11' DGM STi Sdn	heh, I like the Tekken refernce.. yeah.. eddy sucks.. real cheater character.. I always played with paul or xing..

10-21-2000, 02:18 PM	#3
Robert Scooby Newbie Member#: 108 Join Date: Jul 1999 Location: Santa Monica, CA and New York, NY	Hey, Baek was the man in Tekken 2 He had the most intricate and devastating combo. Can't believe they dropped him in 3, although a couple characters stole some of his moves. Is he back in Tag Team? Although I agree with the size comment, I don't think any of the drivers in the WRC are "rookies." They should have a power/weight ratio limit or something.

10-21-2000, 03:59 PM	#4
N/A Scooby Specialist Member#: 133 Join Date: Aug 1999 Location: Maryland (not by choice) Vehicle: 2003 Echo-daily car silver	Well eventually they may end up with a weight requirement like some of the other racing leagues. That would put it back onto a level playing field. Its too bad though. I don't agree with a weight requirement since I see it as forcing other companies to keep the status qou rather then doing some research and design into new models and better specs. If the Peugots bother you just remember how badly they did in the UK JD Power Survey this year. They were rated one of the worst companies and had some of the lower end cars in their line up. Meanwhile Subaru had control of the top ten best cars. The Impreza wasn't the #1 anymore though. The Forester was #7 this year with the Impreza coming in #2 only because the Legacy was now the #1 car in satisfaction, service, reliability, customer care by dealers and a few other things. Hell even Skoda had a car that was either in the top ten or just outside of it.

10-21-2000, 04:14 PM	#5
Hoopster Scooby Newbie Member#: 1420 Join Date: May 2000 Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada	I thought there was a minimum weight requirement for WRC Group A. From the SWRT site : Car weight: 1230kgs (WRC regulation min.) So, it can't be weight...

10-21-2000, 04:15 PM	#6
SkToBe Ghost Mod Moderator Member#: 1278 Join Date: Apr 2000 Chapter/Region: MAIC Location: Manassas, VA Vehicle: 2001 RS Aspen White	Weight restrictions? Sounds like turning the WRC into NASCAR??!!

10-21-2000, 04:20 PM	#7
N/A Scooby Specialist Member#: 133 Join Date: Aug 1999 Location: Maryland (not by choice) Vehicle: 2003 Echo-daily car silver	If you really wanted it to be equal cars then you'd have the car makers work together to build one car that is the only car raced in WRC. Then the test would be driver skill. Then again it would take away bragging rights to the racing and the car makers wouldn't want to be part of it. If we want to have a WRC then we're just going to have to live with competition. Besides would we have liked it it Subaru was made to add extra weight or use a larger Legacy because they were doing to good?

10-21-2000, 04:45 PM	#8
michael harris Scooby Newbie Member#: 173 Join Date: Aug 1999 Location: albany,ny,	don't forget FORD, PEUGEOT, and the other EUROcars, they were winning rally championships, when subaru was making JUSTIN 1.2L. Like it or note, the Europians knows there s....t!

10-21-2000, 06:59 PM	#9
Kostamojen Scooby Guru Member#: 2272 Join Date: Sep 2000 Chapter/Region: BAIC Location: haha XD Vehicle: 95 L AWD LIFTED!!! 1970 Subaru FF-1 Coupe	Here are some scary movies to help prove his point... http://www.racecar.co.uk/fordfocus/contents.html Shift BOOM shift BOOM

10-21-2000, 07:26 PM	#10
Hoopster Scooby Newbie Member#: 1420 Join Date: May 2000 Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada	Wow, driver was a little scary there !

10-21-2000, 11:05 PM	#11
ASNG Scooby Newbie Member#: 681 Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: Square One	What???...no doughnuts or drifts?! What a wuss!! ASNG

10-21-2000, 11:33 PM	#12
markus Scooby Specialist Member#: 438 Join Date: Oct 1999 Chapter/Region: W. Canada Location: St. Albert, AB, Canada Vehicle: 2004 STi White on Gold	Oh yee of little faith. Remeber guys, the Impreza is one of the oldest WRC platform out there. The Peugot is newer, the Focus is newer, the Mitsu is newer. Next season they'll have the newer Impreza platform. Rumour has it that the new Imprezas drive much better than our present platforms, bug-eyes and all.

10-21-2000, 11:44 PM	#13
Kostamojen Scooby Guru Member#: 2272 Join Date: Sep 2000 Chapter/Region: BAIC Location: haha XD Vehicle: 95 L AWD LIFTED!!! 1970 Subaru FF-1 Coupe	Oh the new Impreza is going to be a dream to drive... Just get over the bug eyes and buy one! (Seriously, whats wrong with round headlights? Theyre actually more asthetically correct on this car anyway cough Art Major cough) Im just as enthusiastic over the possibility of some kind of rally-inspire focus showing up in American showrooms! Heck, even the Bug (TSR? I forget the name) Rally version is awefully intreaging... Im just lucky not to have any prejeduce towards certain brands like most people enough to be enthusiastic about them!

10-22-2000, 01:02 AM	#14
Snoopy Scooby Specialist Member#: 700 Join Date: Jan 2000 Chapter/Region: MAIC Location: BANNED! Vehicle: 99 Impreza RS Silverthorn Metallic	The Imprezas are doing well despite the smaller Peugeots and Fords' cars advantage in manuverability. I bet ya if Toyota were still racing their Corolla, things would be a lot different. In all of the gravel events, the Imprezas were in the top 3 leader boards until the car had mechanical problems or crashed which benefitted the Peugeots and Fords. On the tarmac events, Burns is not a tarmac specialist, Jean Joseph is still new to Subaru as well as Petter Solberg. And remember, Panizzi and Delacour are tarmac specialists. The Subarus did well enough on tarmac until Burns crashed it on this event though at the Corsica rally, the smaller cars really shined through with their advantage in shorter, wider dimensions on the twisty tarmacs. Ford and Peugeot kicked the rear ends of Subaru and Mitsus. The current WRC Impreza is already using the "new" engine of the upcoming Impreza. They introduced it at the Argentina Rally, I think. They were just using the old body shell. So next year's Impreza will be the same inside, just a stiffer new shell on the outside is about all the change we'll see. What we need is to get hired guns like what Subaru did in 1997. Keep Burns as the lead driver, but hire specialists for the tarmac and snow events. In that year, Subaru hired Liatti for the tarmac events(which he won a few and placed no less than 2nd) and hired Kenneth Erikson for the snow(where he won the first round and placed 2nd in the next). Those were crucial manufacturer's points for Subaru. McRae lost by only one point to Makinenen that year. Next year, we'll have a more "Impreza experienced" snow specialist like Petter Solberg and tarmac specilist like Jean-Joseph(if Subaru keeps him). Burns will still be a contender along with Gronholm.

10-22-2000, 02:29 AM	#15
rsquire Scooby Specialist Member#: 265 Join Date: Sep 1999 Location: Kirkland, WA Vehicle: 1998 22B Blue 1986 Ford RS200 White	Impreze... Check my old threads.. I think I predicted this in about May or June.. But I did think it would be next year not this.. Aahhh well never mind next year will be worse as the Focus come on stream in addition to the Pugs. Whoops oh well.. Prediction for next year.. Gronholm #1 McRae #2 or maybe vice versa Richard

10-22-2000, 10:35 AM	#16
roninscar Scooby Newbie Member#: 2306 Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Orlando, FL, USA Vehicle: 2000 RS Sedan Blue Ridge Pearl	Ok, lets not get crazy here. First of all, you can actually BUY the Imp, try getting an awd focus or pug, THEY DON"T EXIST!! What this means is that WRC class C (or N or whatever it is) cars aren't particularly close to their road going brethren, aside from engine location, and more importantly in this case, wheel location. The stock new one is heavier, my guess is it will be at the weight requirement in racing trim, but has wider tracks front and rear, this will help in the handling dept. The pug and focus have no overhangs which can help the car rotate in turns, more centralized mass, and that advantage doesn't go away entirely, although I think they pushed the wheels out to the corners a bit, on the new Imp. Bottom line is, racing is great and all, but my bucks go to the company that brings that to the street. GO TEAM SUBARU!!!

10-22-2000, 02:11 PM	#17
matt7184 Scooby Newbie Member#: 1797 Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Miramar/Gainesville, FL Vehicle: 2003 MazdaSpeed Protege	You can get an AWD focus...... just not in America or right now (its called the Cosworth).

10-22-2000, 07:16 PM	#18
Imprezer Dynamic Uno Member#: 1 Join Date: Jun 1999 Chapter/Region: BAIC Location: Alameda, CA Vehicle: 2011 Impreza WRX STi Black	There is no production AWD Focus. Cosworth Focus isn't out yet.

10-22-2000, 09:44 PM	#19
montgog Scooby Newbie Member#: 911 Join Date: Feb 2000 Chapter/Region: TXIC Location: sherman, texas usa Vehicle: 2005 Sti Silver	The Cosworth is being planned. Very limited numbers, more so than the Escort was.

10-23-2000, 06:49 AM	#20
Tim K. Scooby Specialist Member#: 214 Join Date: Aug 1999 Location: Sumter, SC Vehicle: 2009 John Deere 5425 Green	The Impreza is still within striking distance of the championship. It was the only car in the latest rally to even come close to the Pugs on an all tarmac event. Burns retired because he pushed too hard into a second gear corner and understeered into a rock. The subsequent damage to the radiator allowed all the coolant to drain frying the motor by the time he got back to service. One of the biggest disadvantages Subaru has on tarmac events are the tires. Thankfully the tire manufacturer has done work on new compounds for the Subaru. The car is still one of the best on gravel stages. I think Burns stands a good chance to win the Rally of Great Britian. He might even take the last two giving him the championship. All the cars in the WRC actually add weight to make the legal limit. There is a plug of lead under the driver's and co-driver's seats raising the weight to the legal limit. Remember, Tommi is the 4-time World Champ. Thats 4 times in a row. Its damned hard to keep a streak like that alive.

10-23-2000, 06:55 AM	#21
Gambit Scooby Specialist Member#: 102 Join Date: Jul 1999 Location: The meeting place	Gee thanks for the vote of confidence el presidente. Is it me or is our President is jumping ship to start a new Peuguot-206.com bbs?!

10-24-2000, 12:19 AM	#23
SRI Performance Vendor Member#: 2448 Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: brunswick, Ohio 44212 Vehicle: 1997 subaru green and yellow	ford sucks, i hate them and i'm still pissed about Colin Mcrea leaving Subaru for an american car, what a wimp!!! You'll see me up there in the rankings in about 3 yrs. even though were not winning WRC, we are kicking butt in the Pro Classes

10-24-2000, 12:48 AM	#24
8Complex Moderator Member#: 922 Join Date: Feb 2000 Chapter/Region: MWSOC Location: Schaumburg, IL Vehicle: 04 FXT Red	I wouldn't quite jump, Alex... There are a lot of changes done to make the car better all-around. According to that brochure thing posted last week, changes made that I could see helping: Redesigned intake ports Redesigned pistons Intercooler position altered (not sure if applicable to WRC car tho) Front lower control arms aluminum on WRX's (is this new? not sure...) Front track width has been increased Rear roll center lifted 33mm (tho they claim same as WRC car, but maybe the WRC car will have it lifted even more) Windshield wiper system improved (hey, it helps..) Can't forget the Halogen headlights now... Body/frame rigidity highly improved I think all those can contribute to a better handling car, and possibly help on the course. Of course, a more insane driver would help as well. Gotta get someone that'll outdrive McRae.

10-23-2000, 01:11 PM	#25
Paul UK Scooby Newbie Member#: 893 Join Date: Feb 2000 Location: Aylesbury	Word on the street, well actually from a friend who works there, is that the WRC Mitsubishi for next year has not been signed off yet, this , allegedly , is due to wrangleing with the powers that be over exact spec they will be allowed to run. In my view the Impreza will have a better chance next year as essentially they are using a more developed car. I've noticed a bit of confusion over the regulation each team is runnning to. WRC is a set of regs and doesn't describe the whole series Group A is the set of regs most manufatures used to run under, Mitsubishi still do (they will be running WRC next year) Apparantly it is possible to build a Group A car a lot better than a WRC car, but the compromises for homologation for the production car are not worthwhile. Homolgation refers to raod cars built to a similar spec as regards suspension mounting points and componant positioning among others. Group A is much more restictive than WRC. Group N is "showroom" spec and modificatins broadly speaking are safety related only.