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Old 07-22-2004, 10:36 PM   #1
Kwyjibo
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Default Sound Stage in WRX...components in rear doors, tweeters on deck?

I haven't seen this asked before and just kinda thought of it today.

With an amp in the trunk it would be easy to put a crossover for some two way components in the trunk, then run a wire for the tweeters through the rear deck and mount them there, keeping the midbass in the rear doors.

I have NO idea how this would affect the sound stage for people in the rear, but i'm more interested in having a decent sound stage up front, and with the tweeters in the door location it sucks.

tia.
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Old 07-23-2004, 02:41 AM   #2
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if you are interested in having a better staging up front, then invest your time and money in front component and installation. keep the stocker for occasionnal rear passenger. when you have a strong frontstage, you really don't miss rearfill. if you absolutely want rear fill, i would go with 6 midbass driver on the rear deck. the imaging will shift to rear but the midbass is so much better than in a stock door
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Old 07-23-2004, 05:27 AM   #3
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The problem with rear deck speakers is that it pulls your ear rearward. Think of it this way, if you went to a concert, do you face the performer? or the back wall? How many times do you see huge speakers behind you? none. Go with the best you can afford up front, and don't spend more than $100 on co-ax's for the rear.
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Old 11-08-2004, 06:24 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WRX/Z28
The problem with rear deck speakers is that it pulls your ear rearward. Think of it this way, if you went to a concert, do you face the performer? or the back wall? How many times do you see huge speakers behind you? none. Go with the best you can afford up front, and don't spend more than $100 on co-ax's for the rear.
Actually, I have been to shows where there were speakers placed behind the audience. Namely Pink Floyd shows in surround

But I agree with the no rear fill stance many here have taken.
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Old 07-23-2004, 09:24 AM   #5
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Putting components up front with the tweeters in the sail panels rather than stock locations is about a 200% improvement in imaging as well.

I ran for 6 months with my tweeters in the stock location then I moved them one day and couldn't believe the difference...

I also haven't had the rear speakers faded in since January...I faded them out when I was checking levels with a RTA and never faded them back in. I didn't notice till a passenger asked me to turn on the rear speakers for them.

-- Dave
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Old 07-23-2004, 04:53 PM   #6
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Don't put anything in the rear. I let my passengers listen to bass. If you're not cool enough to ride in the front, you don't deserve music. HAR HAR HAR

Unless of course you drive from the back seat? Even then you would want the tweeters mounted on B pillar or something like that.
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Old 07-23-2004, 04:58 PM   #7
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Oh serious answer...

Tweeters in a WRX generally sound GREAT in the A-Pillar aimed at each other or maybe slightly forward (not much). Just put them up high enough to clear the dash.

Some people say when mounting here, to wire them out of phase with the components, but I say experiment as that didn't work well for me at all.
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Old 07-23-2004, 09:58 PM   #8
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The reply before this one was the best and the others have thier place as well. Probably less than 1% of audio competition cars have rear speakers at all except subs and they are up front as well is some of the best(in the rear of some of the other best)

Normally out of phase for A pillar tweets is the correct solution but not always as pointed out already here

Next lay out some towels on your dash and take a good listen, then remove them and try again. Use your best sounding CD's for this and play it moderately loud to medium loud for best results but not really loud and do it while parked with the engine off.

Most vehicles benfit from those ugly dash mats, too bad, I use them myself though.

Rick
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Old 07-24-2004, 01:10 PM   #9
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this is all exellent advice you are getting. invest in quality, amped, front components and your ears will thank you for it. if you have good components in the front with a good amp powering them you will not miss the real fill at all trust me, i know i don't. also keep in mind the more you separate the tweets from your mids the worse frequency response you will get. speakers are made to be listened to on-axis, which is pretty hard to do in a car environment so you have to do your best to minimize how off axis you are.
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Old 07-24-2004, 10:21 PM   #10
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Manu10 had it right, try to separate your tweeters from the woofer as little as possible. Otherwise you get pathlength differences that will hurt your sq and how the tweeter blends with the woofer. Think of every good home speaker you ever heard, how many seperated the tweeter more than 4 inches from the woofer, probably none. Boston has the solution, Ambient Tweeters that add nothing to the sq... just lift the sound stage. Its a second set that sit up high, while the main set sit close to the woofer. http://www.bostonacoustics.com/ca_pr...?CategoryID=15
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Old 07-24-2004, 10:26 PM   #11
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javascript:void window.open('Manuals/Neo5Tech.pdf','','height=600,width=700').focus()

oh yeah... and read this as well... they work really really well
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Old 07-25-2004, 03:20 PM   #12
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Slight info correction here guys Most car speakers are designed for off axis listening, due to the way cars are built. This is not saying being on axis is a bad thing but since the path lenghts are so vastly different means on axis is generally going to focus more energy on one side of your head than the other. Car audio competitors figured several ways around these issues many years ago, to bad the car manf do not hire some of us to help them get it right. Some of the newer high end audio systems from the factory are better but none are really correct.

1) kick panel mids and tweets, just not do-able in many cars and a bit tricky to get it right, overall best results can be obtained this way. Start with just the mids, have them as far back and low as possible, you want to equalize the path lenghts as much as possible. Us a very good vocal CD that you know has the primary vocalist in the center of the sound stage(easier to find this with a good home system or headphones) Normally I aim the mids 5" in front of and 1.5" down from the center of the primary listeners ear opening. I aim the speakers at the side windows, the idea is to reflect the opposite speaker into the listeners ear, may sound bizare but it works, exceptionally well and I would be glad to demo this to anyone interested Then the tweeter, generally mounted low and closer to the listener, may be aimed the same or sometimes slightly up and forward to get it to couple with the mid better. I port the rear of the sealed kick panels(sealed before I port them into the lower A pillars and stuff a bit of Dacron into the pillars. I cut a hole in the back of the kick panels to correspond to the opening all cars have into the pillars there, if not able to match them up I may cut and smooth out a hole into the metal to make this work. Some like to port into the carpet and it does have a good effect but not nearly as good as into the pillars, remember, car speakers are not meant for sealed boxes(another generality but almost always true except many subs of course)

2) Pillar mounted tweeters, this is a relatively simple and very effective way to get great center imaging and a high sound stage. Best to sink the tweeters as flush as you can into the pillars to widen the stage, mount them a couple of inches above the highest point on the dash and generally wired out of phase to help time align them to the mids. The midbasses generally work well in the doors, just deaden them well and mount them solidly.

I am not an audio snob or elitist, I have owned the best gear ever, competed at high levels, etc, but most of what I know I am passing on knowledge I have gained from alot of study, hard work, rework, more rework but mainly from associations with some of the worlds most successfull audio competitors and installers. World titles under their belts means they really have put thier hearts into what they have acheived, it is not easy to win at that level. So, If I say something works, please believe me, not doing this for recognition, I want to help you get the most you can from your efforts and expenses pursuing higher end car audio, my reward is in making you happy and saving money if possible as well

For those that do not know, I am in the car audio business but it is far more my passion(as is performance and racing) than business to me and always will be.

Have a great week!
Rick
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Old 07-26-2004, 03:10 PM   #13
tad_02Wgn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raamaudio
Slight info correction here guys Most car speakers are designed for off axis listening, due to the way cars are built. This is not saying being on axis is a bad thing but since the path lenghts are so vastly different means on axis is generally going to focus more energy on one side of your head than the other. Car audio competitors figured several ways around these issues many years ago, to bad the car manf do not hire some of us to help them get it right. Some of the newer high end audio systems from the factory are better but none are really correct.

1) kick panel mids and tweets, just not do-able in many cars and a bit tricky to get it right, overall best results can be obtained this way. Start with just the mids, have them as far back and low as possible, you want to equalize the path lenghts as much as possible. Us a very good vocal CD that you know has the primary vocalist in the center of the sound stage(easier to find this with a good home system or headphones) Normally I aim the mids 5" in front of and 1.5" down from the center of the primary listeners ear opening. I aim the speakers at the side windows, the idea is to reflect the opposite speaker into the listeners ear, may sound bizare but it works, exceptionally well and I would be glad to demo this to anyone interested Then the tweeter, generally mounted low and closer to the listener, may be aimed the same or sometimes slightly up and forward to get it to couple with the mid better. I port the rear of the sealed kick panels(sealed before I port them into the lower A pillars and stuff a bit of Dacron into the pillars. I cut a hole in the back of the kick panels to correspond to the opening all cars have into the pillars there, if not able to match them up I may cut and smooth out a hole into the metal to make this work. Some like to port into the carpet and it does have a good effect but not nearly as good as into the pillars, remember, car speakers are not meant for sealed boxes(another generality but almost always true except many subs of course)

2) Pillar mounted tweeters, this is a relatively simple and very effective way to get great center imaging and a high sound stage. Best to sink the tweeters as flush as you can into the pillars to widen the stage, mount them a couple of inches above the highest point on the dash and generally wired out of phase to help time align them to the mids. The midbasses generally work well in the doors, just deaden them well and mount them solidly.

I am not an audio snob or elitist, I have owned the best gear ever, competed at high levels, etc, but most of what I know I am passing on knowledge I have gained from alot of study, hard work, rework, more rework but mainly from associations with some of the worlds most successfull audio competitors and installers. World titles under their belts means they really have put thier hearts into what they have acheived, it is not easy to win at that level. So, If I say something works, please believe me, not doing this for recognition, I want to help you get the most you can from your efforts and expenses pursuing higher end car audio, my reward is in making you happy and saving money if possible as well

For those that do not know, I am in the car audio business but it is far more my passion(as is performance and racing) than business to me and always will be.

Have a great week!
Rick
Good advice Rick - you hit a lot of important points there.
On another note, are you still selling raammat? I know there were a few people over on SD wondering where to get it a few weeks ago.
-tad
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Old 07-26-2004, 04:26 PM   #14
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Thanks, just trying to help out, I rewrote a bit of if it and added more info in a new thread, I will get a bit more detailed in the future or as questions come up. Yes, I still sell RAAMmat
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Old 07-04-2007, 10:52 AM   #15
rmarceau
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raamaudio View Post
Slight info correction here guys Most car speakers are designed for off axis listening, due to the way cars are built. This is not saying being on axis is a bad thing but since the path lenghts are so vastly different means on axis is generally going to focus more energy on one side of your head than the other. Car audio competitors figured several ways around these issues many years ago, to bad the car manf do not hire some of us to help them get it right. Some of the newer high end audio systems from the factory are better but none are really correct.

1) kick panel mids and tweets, just not do-able in many cars and a bit tricky to get it right, overall best results can be obtained this way. Start with just the mids, have them as far back and low as possible, you want to equalize the path lenghts as much as possible. Us a very good vocal CD that you know has the primary vocalist in the center of the sound stage(easier to find this with a good home system or headphones) Normally I aim the mids 5" in front of and 1.5" down from the center of the primary listeners ear opening. I aim the speakers at the side windows, the idea is to reflect the opposite speaker into the listeners ear, may sound bizare but it works, exceptionally well and I would be glad to demo this to anyone interested Then the tweeter, generally mounted low and closer to the listener, may be aimed the same or sometimes slightly up and forward to get it to couple with the mid better. I port the rear of the sealed kick panels(sealed before I port them into the lower A pillars and stuff a bit of Dacron into the pillars. I cut a hole in the back of the kick panels to correspond to the opening all cars have into the pillars there, if not able to match them up I may cut and smooth out a hole into the metal to make this work. Some like to port into the carpet and it does have a good effect but not nearly as good as into the pillars, remember, car speakers are not meant for sealed boxes(another generality but almost always true except many subs of course)

2) Pillar mounted tweeters, this is a relatively simple and very effective way to get great center imaging and a high sound stage. Best to sink the tweeters as flush as you can into the pillars to widen the stage, mount them a couple of inches above the highest point on the dash and generally wired out of phase to help time align them to the mids. The midbasses generally work well in the doors, just deaden them well and mount them solidly.

I am not an audio snob or elitist, I have owned the best gear ever, competed at high levels, etc, but most of what I know I am passing on knowledge I have gained from alot of study, hard work, rework, more rework but mainly from associations with some of the worlds most successfull audio competitors and installers. World titles under their belts means they really have put thier hearts into what they have acheived, it is not easy to win at that level. So, If I say something works, please believe me, not doing this for recognition, I want to help you get the most you can from your efforts and expenses pursuing higher end car audio, my reward is in making you happy and saving money if possible as well

For those that do not know, I am in the car audio business but it is far more my passion(as is performance and racing) than business to me and always will be.

Have a great week!
Rick
Thanks for the info Rick, I just received my RAAMmat and Ensolite in the mail and can't wait to seal up my front doors. I've been running CDT components up front with no deadening for way too long now. Basically, they sound terrible as a result. I'm hoping this makes a huge difference in my sq.

Regarding the elevated tweeters you mentioned, have you, or anyone listened to the CDT upstage kit (additional tweeters placed on dash/pillars) in a Subaru? This may be my next move if im still not satisfied after matting the doors. From the discussion above, it sounds like this could be a good solution for imaging and better sq overall.

Thanks!

Ryan

Last edited by rmarceau; 07-04-2007 at 10:56 AM. Reason: spelt RAAMmat incorrectly
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Old 11-07-2004, 03:50 PM   #16
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For what it's worth, my Jetta uses an 8 speaker system... normal woofers in all 4 doors, and tweeters in the front sail panels, and right next to the rear door handles. If I fade out the rear, I lose the imaging I get from my rear tweeters, and it's VERY noticable.

Just something to think about...
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Old 11-07-2004, 05:15 PM   #17
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I am running the alpine componets up front(177X) and now wondering what to do for the rear also,Do you think the 17MB Alpines(mid ranges) mounted in the rear doors
is worth it, or a good idea?Or does it fall to the same answer of do not waiste money in the rear?
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Old 11-07-2004, 06:06 PM   #18
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I wouldn't bother amp'ing them in the rear...

I don't seem to mind rear door speakers as much as I did rear deck. Rear deck speakers, esp with tweeters are really distracting to me. When the speakers are in the rear doors, I don't seem to notice them.

I'd just go with full range drivers in there, no co-ax or anthing. Raw drivers can be found fairly cheaply at most audio shops.

-- Dave
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Old 11-08-2004, 11:30 AM   #19
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when you guys says wire the tweets out of phase, do you mean out of phase with each other or out of phase with each ones own mid?
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Old 11-08-2004, 11:48 AM   #20
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My guess is with each other. I haven't done this yet, but I'm getting ready to.

-- Dave
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Old 11-08-2004, 12:39 PM   #21
ptaaty
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i have the diamond hex s600s in the front, stock locations for the mids and tweets...

it is bizzare i actually decent imaging, but only in the driver or pass seat. I put my head in the middle where the distance would be the most equal, both for tweets and mids and the imaging goes to crap.

I know there are level and phase switches on the xovers for the tweets, but i don't know what the installer put them at (this was a rare instance of having someone else install my stuff)

oh yeah...don't do anything in the rear for the front passengers. unless you are doing actual multichannel you will hose the imaging. you end up with phase issues due to the multiple distances for the same audio info...
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Old 07-03-2007, 07:12 PM   #22
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N00b question, but is the dealer mid/tweets a easy drop in? Like is the tweeter wiring already there and I just pop in the tweets on the upper door panel?
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