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Old 01-27-2005, 05:25 PM   #1
Kevin Thomas
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Default Ebay Intake vs Stock Intake Dyno Results

Hello all,

mi_cistemz_loudr, previously sent me his Ebay intake to dyno test on my car. I received it and completed dyno testing it against my stock intake and my Minnam Intake. I'm ONLY posting up stock vs Ebay intake since this post isn't about my Minnam intake. Let's cut to the chase.

Car: 1997 2.2ltr Subaru Outback Sport Wagon (AWD/Auto)

Current mods:
Unorthodox underdriven pulley
2.25" cat back exhaust/Dual Remus Muffler

Using 89 octane gas. Tire pressures are good. I did 4 runs a piece (12 total if you count my other 4 for the Minnam intake [not shown]). 2 runs were done at a time and the ECU unplugged until intake temps dropped below 89F (measured by a laser temp probe). Once temps were cool enough, ECU was plugged back in. HP/TQ figures used are the 2nd highest of the two most consistent runs.

*I need to pick up my wife shortly so I'm posting this up quickly*

Here is a horsepower graph showing the Ebay intake vs the stock intake in 3rd gear.

*Note at 4800rpm, the Ebay intake makes 94.88whp vs the stock intakes 84.88whp. A full 10whp difference in some areas on a 2.2ltr engine.


Let's look at the torque curve.

At the same rpm point, the Ebay intake makes 103.33lb-ft of torque vs the stock intake 92.43lb-ft of torque. That's a 10.9lb-ft of torque increase. Not bad at all.

Here's the breakdown of how the Ebay intake is from the bottom of 1st gear to the top of 3rd gear.



Here's a pic of the owner of the Ebay intake on how it would look in your engine bay.



Gains could possibly be more on the bigger displacemented 2.5RS. So there you have it. I have to run out to pick up my wife. Questions and comments are welcome. Ebay intakes kick arse! Stop wasting your hard earned $$$ on Cobb and other really expensive intakes. I've been saying this all along.

This also disproves the 'theory' that a Torque Box is needed. My Impreza has that container/box thingamajigga attached to the intake. With the Ebay straight pipe, torque was gained tremendously as you can tell.

Last edited by Kevin Thomas; 01-27-2005 at 08:02 PM.
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Old 01-27-2005, 07:41 PM   #2
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Nice work. Way to make TONS of people feel a bit ripped off after spending a boat load on the "only" intake that showed gains. I've always been hesitant to get an intake as I thought the COBB (hi $$$) were the only ones that actually did anything and I wasn't willing to spend that kind of money.

Now an ebay intake on the other hand is much more in my budget...

Jared
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Old 01-27-2005, 08:40 PM   #3
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Great thread.

Now is when all the cobb and injen boys get a nasty sinking feeling.

Thank you so much for taking the time to prove that just because something costs alot dosn't mean its better. I really want to dyno my intake now.
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Old 01-27-2005, 09:46 PM   #4
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I bought a very similar intake from Rallitek for my '99 RS a year ago:

Besides being the loudest thing I've ever heard under my hood, it also caused the engine to lean out a LOT. So much, in fact, that at 5500RPM the ECU would force a fuel cut as though I had hit redline. I ended up having to buy and install an S-AFC and run the following air/fuel correction curve:

(notice 21% extra fuel at redline). Then it made what seemed like some extra power, but I ended up selling it and installing an Injen. I'm more satisfied with its sound and it does not lean out the car as much, though its still around 11% extra fuel at redline.
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Old 01-28-2005, 06:40 AM   #5
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hahaha. Kevin, you just made my day. I'm printing the dyno charts out now...

man i knew i gained something, but 10 more hp and lb/ft? thats crazy!

well the intake was bought for me by a friend. that and the parts to make it fit right. Ill send him the link to this page. He'll be nutz.

Thanks Kevin for taking the time and money to do this.

-Shaun
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Old 01-28-2005, 10:01 AM   #6
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Thats sweet. I've been on the fence about an intake, but I think this has convinced me
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Old 01-28-2005, 10:51 AM   #7
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Thanks! I hope your post helps put an end to the NASIOC Board Legend that "You can't do much to improve your EJ22 so you might as well swap in a EJ25". When I added my supplementary hoodscoop fed intake, the power increase was noticeable and I think you have to have at least a 5hp gain to notice the difference with any mod.

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Old 01-28-2005, 11:52 AM   #8
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these numbers are very interesting. I have an indentical intake, except for an additional silicone joint in the bend. However, I use a Ractive "heat shield" filter, and the filtration area don't look as large. I like the heat shield because it will be easy to convert it into CAI by adding a tube and run it into the front fender. I also tought about taking a broken headlight and make a ram-air intake for drag racing days
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Old 10-01-2007, 07:57 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyLR View Post
Thanks! I hope your post helps put an end to the NASIOC Board Legend that "You can't do much to improve your EJ22 so you might as well swap in a EJ25". When I added my supplementary hoodscoop fed intake, the power increase was noticeable and I think you have to have at least a 5hp gain to notice the difference with any mod.

Can someone tell me how to do this!?
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Old 10-02-2007, 01:45 AM   #10
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Ok first off this thread has been beaten like a dead horse

Second and my own experience opinion

Get a CAI like the injen or the cobb i use the Injen and it works great easy install took under 2 hours and showed gains even over my short ram intake that i got off ebay and modified like everyone else. sure it is more expensive but search the for sale section sometimes these can be had for under $200. im not flaming since i am the guy who is giving up the NA world and turboing my 2.2L yes I AM BOOSTING MY EJ22 SOHC Single Port Exhaust
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Old 10-02-2007, 07:53 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by XanRules View Post
Can someone tell me how to do this!?
Unfortunately, you can't even think about it until after you've converted your engine management system to MAP. If you did that on your MAF car, you would be letting in a bunch of unmetered air, which would cause it to die off-idle and even if you were to get up to speed.. you'd blow your motor in short order from running extremely lean.
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Old 01-28-2005, 12:06 PM   #12
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i bought a ebay intake, i got the wrong one tried to return it, dude left and killed the account on ebay, so im 50 bucks out, anyone know if its cheap to re-bend a pipe? or sum how remedy this badboy
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Old 01-28-2005, 12:22 PM   #13
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I didn't want to comment on the Ebay intake(s) but I think I should say something on this. These intakes are not bolt-ons. You can't just purchase an Ebay intake and expect to just install it without issues.

They have to be modified. For example, the IAC valve and hose may have to be enlarged. You may have to drill a hole or somehow tap into the intake to attach an IAC, PCV or valve cover vacuum hose. 'May' is the key word since all of these intakes are not alike. I only tested this one version that was modified this one way by Shaun.

Also, you probably are going to have to purchase a Maf adapter. I didn't use the one that was provided by the owner (Shaun). I used the maf adapter I have for my Minnam intake, which is a perfect fit. It looked like Shaun had to modify a maf adapter to make it fit.

3rd note is that some of you ARE NOT going to like the air filter. I was going to include pics but when I swap cars, I left my digital camera in the other car. I'm sending this intake back today and it's all boxed up so I can't give you detailed pics. What I can tell you is not the quality of the filter element but the top of the filter looks similar 'to a thin metal screen'. Sure it will filter out some stuff but it's not an 'air filter' type of material. It's almost like sticking a panty hose over your maf sensor.

There's a reason why it's cheap. That wasn't the point of this thread. I wanted to see if the intake actually made or lost hp/torque and where it did it at. I was very curious. I'm putting up this post now because I feel some what responsible if a noob hurries up and go out and purchase one of these, only to be left at a standstill when they are ready to install it because they can't. Now you know!
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Old 01-30-2005, 11:39 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Thomas
Also, you probably are going to have to purchase a Maf adapter. I didn't use the one that was provided by the owner (Shaun). I used the maf adapter I have for my Minnam intake, which is a perfect fit. It looked like Shaun had to modify a maf adapter to make it fit.

3rd note is that some of you ARE NOT going to like the air filter. I was going to include pics but when I swap cars, I left my digital camera in the other car. I'm sending this intake back today and it's all boxed up so I can't give you detailed pics. What I can tell you is not the quality of the filter element but the top of the filter looks similar 'to a thin metal screen'. Sure it will filter out some stuff but it's not an 'air filter' type of material. It's almost like sticking a panty hose over your maf sensor. \
ok. apparently i didnt read this too thoroughly before. yes, there is a very thin metal screen at the end of thefilter. and no its not good. i have a VERY fine dust on the inside of my intake cuz of it. first thing i do when i get the intake back, other than install it, is to get another filter. i dunno the company, but its 25$. its the typical cone filter with a inner 'V' filter. ill post [ics when i actually get it. /v\ <- thats the jist of it

another thing. i didnt mod a MAF adaptor. i made one. at the time, we didnt know there was such thing as a MAF adaptor. we used a bend we cut off the intake, and made our own with that and some spare sheet metal. i say spare but we paid 10$ for it. thats another thing i plan to get with the new filter(the adaptor).

another thing, to back Kevin up. if you plan to go out and buy an ebay intake, i can assure you that, if you get one from the same company i got mine from (which you prob will) it wont fit out of the box. it wants to put the filter in place of the strut tower(i have 1 pic of the intake before surgery). cutting, silicon, hosing, clamps, etc are all involved. yes this intake appears to make more power, but with that power comes work and fabrication. i posted in the original ebay intake post about this.

a breakdown of my intake is here:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...8&page=1&pp=25

i would be happy to answer questions or take more pictures if anyone is interested.

-Shaun
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Old 12-28-2005, 03:45 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Thomas
I didn't want to comment on the Ebay intake(s) but I think I should say something on this. These intakes are not bolt-ons. You can't just purchase an Ebay intake and expect to just install it without issues.

They have to be modified. For example, the IAC valve and hose may have to be enlarged. You may have to drill a hole or somehow tap into the intake to attach an IAC, PCV or valve cover vacuum hose. 'May' is the key word since all of these intakes are not alike. I only tested this one version that was modified this one way by Shaun.

Also, you probably are going to have to purchase a Maf adapter. I didn't use the one that was provided by the owner (Shaun). I used the maf adapter I have for my Minnam intake, which is a perfect fit. It looked like Shaun had to modify a maf adapter to make it fit.

3rd note is that some of you ARE NOT going to like the air filter. I was going to include pics but when I swap cars, I left my digital camera in the other car. I'm sending this intake back today and it's all boxed up so I can't give you detailed pics. What I can tell you is not the quality of the filter element but the top of the filter looks similar 'to a thin metal screen'. Sure it will filter out some stuff but it's not an 'air filter' type of material. It's almost like sticking a panty hose over your maf sensor.

There's a reason why it's cheap. That wasn't the point of this thread. I wanted to see if the intake actually made or lost hp/torque and where it did it at. I was very curious. I'm putting up this post now because I feel some what responsible if a noob hurries up and go out and purchase one of these, only to be left at a standstill when they are ready to install it because they can't. Now you know!
I had absolutely no problem installing mine. It fit perfectly and yes it was a no name manufacturer. As soon as it arrived, I trashed the filter it came with, measured all aroung the c/a intake filter area and went to advanced auto to buy the biggest k&n cone filter w/ a 3" outlet I could find. Bam, now I have a k&n cold air intake for all of $85.00.

On a side note, anyone foolish enough to buy an AEM intake would do well to look at the filter. It's a k&n, which costs $50.00 at advance auto. The rest of the $230.00 cost is basically a cheap pipe with an AEM sticker on it.
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Old 12-29-2005, 06:33 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by down_for_the_scooby
On a side note, anyone foolish enough to buy an AEM intake would do well to look at the filter. It's a k&n, which costs $50.00 at advance auto. The rest of the $230.00 cost is basically a cheap pipe with an AEM sticker on it.
Or at least realize that the AEM short ram is $150 at the most

I did, however, buy the Ebay intake for my Teg and will be swapping the crappy filter out for an K&N... full cold air set up for like $40 is nice... I got the K&N free from back in my Honda days.
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Old 12-29-2005, 08:58 AM   #17
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Holy cow. I just was cruising rallitek.com and saw that the weaponR intake is the ebay intake but with more clamps and probably a different filter. Price ranged from $150-200. I got mine for $15 with no filter.
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Old 01-28-2005, 12:39 PM   #18
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any comment on the a/f ratios? when is a lean condition dangerous?

i had a feeling that with my gravel sport and my aem cai that they were leaning out the fuel... at the very top end. the sound was just different as the ecu relearned... too bad the safc/safc2 doesn't work in the long run with MY03 OBS (MAP).

the larger the intake diameter the leaner it runs, yes?
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Old 01-28-2005, 06:58 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goNads
the larger the intake diameter the leaner it runs, yes?
I honestly can't answer this directly. Despite what you may read about your car not learning at WOT, it does. Every run I did with an aftermarket intake, the air/fuel ratio got richer and richer. Even after disconnecting the ECU after I did two runs and reconnecting it to do another two runs with the same intake. It seemed the ECU took up where it left off before and continued to make the car run richer, in all gears.

Also, different Subaru ECUs work differently. I noticed through dyno testing that an Impreza ECU the same year as mine just made a little later runs leaner. It's as if the ECU mapping is different. While my ECU keeps adjusting richer and richer until above 5000rpm, the air/fuel ratio can drop as low as 10.0:1, the one made later on the same year as mine won't go below 12.5:1. I haven't gone about trying to figure it out. I just understand that this is the way it works.

In short, I'm trying to say that different intakes are going to work differently on different cars (even of the same make/model and year). Even your modifications will determine how rich/lean it's going to run. Each one will be a case by case test. I know my car just dumps a load of fuel above 5000rpm on everything except for the stock setup after it gets used to an aftermarket intake.


Quote:
Originally Posted by chip4761
I think that greater hp gains are realized with the engine mods on this car. If you just slap on an intake, it's not going to make much of a difference. However, the catback has to help things out. Also, if you added some headers, I'm sure the intake would be working to its fullest potential. It seems like anything that helps the engine on the exhaling end would make the intake that much more efficient.
Is there a reason why this reasoning wouldn't apply to the stock intake as well? I'm an idiot so I'm sorry if it's a simple explanation. Someone else said the exact same thing on another forum where I posted this up. I never heard anyone say this about the Cobb intake.

Last edited by Kevin Thomas; 01-28-2005 at 07:19 PM.
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Old 01-31-2005, 02:29 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Thomas
Is there a reason why this reasoning wouldn't apply to the stock intake as well? I'm an idiot so I'm sorry if it's a simple explanation. Someone else said the exact same thing on another forum where I posted this up. I never heard anyone say this about the Cobb intake.
I suppose it would apply to a stock intake. Saying that was a little redundant, since any mod will make more hp if it's in conjunction with something else. Take underdrive pullies for instance. Don't they "make" more power when used with, let's say, a larger turbo? BUT, I think you would realize much larger gains with something a little less retrictive than a stock airbox. I am a master of stating the obvious, by the way.
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Old 11-08-2005, 03:36 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Thomas
I honestly can't answer this directly. Despite what you may read about your car not learning at WOT, it does. Every run I did with an aftermarket intake, the air/fuel ratio got richer and richer. Even after disconnecting the ECU after I did two runs and reconnecting it to do another two runs with the same intake. It seemed the ECU took up where it left off before and continued to make the car run richer, in all gears.

Also, different Subaru ECUs work differently. I noticed through dyno testing that an Impreza ECU the same year as mine just made a little later runs leaner. It's as if the ECU mapping is different. While my ECU keeps adjusting richer and richer until above 5000rpm, the air/fuel ratio can drop as low as 10.0:1, the one made later on the same year as mine won't go below 12.5:1. I haven't gone about trying to figure it out. I just understand that this is the way it works.

In short, I'm trying to say that different intakes are going to work differently on different cars (even of the same make/model and year). Even your modifications will determine how rich/lean it's going to run. Each one will be a case by case test. I know my car just dumps a load of fuel above 5000rpm on everything except for the stock setup after it gets used to an aftermarket intake.
I think it's because after 5,500 rpm or 5,250 rpm, the ECU ignores the knock sensor, MAP/MAF, and O2, and runs on a preset map. This may very from car to car, but I do know that at least the knock sensor is ignored over 5,000 rpm.

I used 3" ID PVC pipe for a homebrew intake. I added some spiral shaped foam (superglued in) for noise reduction and to improve the flow through the bends. At 5,000 rpm, the intake would get obnoxiously loud right ot redline. Hard shifting at redline resulted in a massve backfire out the intake, which was often loud enough to deafen everyone in sight. It would backfire during a hard shift anywhere above 5,5,00 rpm, but it would be amazingly loud right at the rev limiter. I'm thinking that it was backfiring because it was running so lean, it wasn't able to detonate on time, and during the sudden slam shift, it would almost blow up my intake every time.
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Old 11-08-2005, 04:19 AM   #22
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Go with the Ebay tube you can modify it to work if it dosen't fit for some strange reason. I made it work on my 99 RS & still retained the stock MAF sensor location definatly the best $11 dollars plus $25 shipping ever spent and my Denim dyno says so too!
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Old 01-28-2005, 01:47 PM   #23
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I think that greater hp gains are realized with the engine mods on this car. If you just slap on an intake, it's not going to make much of a difference. However, the catback has to help things out. Also, if you added some headers, I'm sure the intake would be working to its fullest potential. It seems like anything that helps the engine on the exhaling end would make the intake that much more efficient.

BTW, thanks for the comparison. I feel vindicated.
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Old 01-28-2005, 02:44 PM   #24
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Hey Kevin, where are you located? I don't think it would be possible for an Intake to make those gains here in Park City (7000ft), or am I just crazy?

Oster
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Old 01-28-2005, 03:29 PM   #25
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alrighty. my ebay intake ABSOLUTELY WAS NOT A BOLT ON!!!!

it did not fit, hoses didnt match up, etc. it was labeled for my car thoh. we blocked 2 hose thingys (one for breather), made our own mount for the one hose, had to cut the pipe, make our own MAF adaptor (didnt know they made them, will buy one when i get the intake back), etc. LOOK ON THE ORIGINAL EBAY INTAKE PAGE for a BREAKDOWN OF MY INTAKE.
i took us 6 hours to get it right, mainly brainstorming.

i used the filter included, but its now dirty so im gonna get a new one.

i just cant believe the gains. i mean i believe it, but WOW!!! neways, the dyno starts at 4k rpms. thats where the car goes from "stockish" to.. uh... well thats where it really starts pulling
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