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Old 01-28-2005, 09:29 PM   #1
STi_Guy04
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Default UTEC or HYDRA for GT35 Kingpin Turbo Kit

Hi I was going to buy the Kingpin GT35 turbo kit

I was wondering which form of E.M would work best??
I Guess i would consider Safty, my car is Daily Driven so we would have to take that into account, I would like to have at least 3 maps to flip around, Can the Utec Really be that great as a piggyback?... What all does the Utec have to offer??

Well if anyone has something to add please do!!!

thanks Sean
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Old 01-28-2005, 09:53 PM   #2
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do you need to pass emissions? if yes, go UTEC, if no, go HYDRA.
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Old 01-28-2005, 09:55 PM   #3
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why would that matter!! and NO I dont need to pass any emissinons

I have Looked up both already... I would like to hear from someone that has used those systems before

yea I would say with the HYDRA I would probley see more power but... I would probley loose drivability

Last edited by STi_Guy04; 01-28-2005 at 10:07 PM.
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Old 01-28-2005, 10:27 PM   #4
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if youre never going to tune the car yourself, it doesnt really matter.

what fuel are you going to run? if you need multiple maps, you should use the hydra or utec, but if you dont, then you might be best off just getting an ecutek reflash.

but between hydra or utec, it doesnt really matter all that much. if you want to run the 4" inlet, then you need the hydra. otherwise, the utec is perfectly fine.
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Old 01-28-2005, 10:40 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by happasaiyan
if youre never going to tune the car yourself, it doesnt really matter.
I would strongly disagree. Certain options on the Hydra, such as closed loop wideband feedback, make the Hydra much more daily drivable than the UTEC. From my personal experiences I found the UTEC to be impossible to daily drive.

Sti_Guy04, I highly suggest doing a lot more research and picking up this book

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...255268-8833722

before you go any further or post any more threads about engine management.
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Old 01-29-2005, 10:41 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sachin
I would strongly disagree. Certain options on the Hydra, such as closed loop wideband feedback, make the Hydra much more daily drivable than the UTEC. From my personal experiences I found the UTEC to be impossible to daily drive.

Sti_Guy04, I highly suggest doing a lot more research and picking up this book

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...255268-8833722

before you go any further or post any more threads about engine management.
no closed loop wideband feedback on the UTEC? really? couldve fooled me, because i have it on mine...and every other UTEC out there. yes, its still the stock ECU calculating it, but the injectors are still being driven by the UTEC.

i daily drive MY car and it works fine for me with a UTEC. sounds like the UTECs youve driven werent tuned very well...ive spent countless hours tuning and tweaking my maps, and they are very smooth.

Last edited by happasaiyan; 01-29-2005 at 05:30 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 01-29-2005, 11:05 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by happasaiyan
no closed loop wideband feedback on the UTEC? really? couldve fooled me, because i have it on mine...and every other UTEC out there. yes, its still the stock ECU calculating it, but the injectors are still being driven by the UTEC.

i daily drive MY car and it works fine for me with a UTEC. sounds like the UTECs youve driven werent tuned very well...ive spent countless hours tuning and tweaking my maps, and they are very smooth.
I should have been more clear. With the stock ECU you do have closed loop wideband feedback...but not in the same way as with the Hydra. With the Hydra you get to set your AFR targets(if you purchase the optional wideband o2 sensor) rather than letting the stock ECU use its own algorithms to determine fuel map adjustments.

Happasaiyan I'm glad you got your UTEC working to your satisfaction. It is true that the cars I've been in that were tuned with a UTEC weren't tuned well. I didn't mean to say that the UTEC is impossible to get to work properly--it just takes, as you said, "countless hours tuning and tweaking maps." I don't doubt a tuner familiar with the UTEC would be able to make a "set it and forget it" tune on one but from what I've seen its easier said than done.
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Old 01-28-2005, 10:29 PM   #8
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IMO theres a BIG difference between the utec and hydra.
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Old 01-28-2005, 10:33 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pux888
IMO theres a BIG difference between the utec and hydra.
they provide different means to the (pretty much) same end.

if the utec had a better maf solution (either map based, or different big maf options) there would (IMHO) be no real restrictions on the UTEC to make huge power.

owl was running a utec on his 500+whp car. thats gotta mean something.
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Old 01-28-2005, 11:09 PM   #10
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Fuel In MN I get 93 fuel.... I have no Idea What type of Gas they sell in AZ!!!...I hope 93 but With my Luck they will only have like 91. I will make a map for race gas. but I have no idea.

Tuning my car myself mite be a BIT over my head.. I doubt my self on things like this LOL, but I do have a laptop. I just want to be safe and not lose my nice drive-ability. Or F-up my car with my own Hands

I dont think I`ll ever get up or over 500++, I`am not lookin to change out drivetrain. But I will get a new clutch when the Kit goes in, which is probley a good idea

I`ll have just enough money selling my winter car to get the GT35 Kit in and Installed in AZ, Untill I finish school anyways Do you guys think I have a chance on breaking my drivetrain with over 420 h/p
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Old 01-28-2005, 11:31 PM   #11
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If you're not going for that high of numbers why get that big of a turbo? Go with a GT30R instead so you can get an earlier spool up?
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Old 01-29-2005, 12:58 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sachin
If you're not going for that high of numbers why get that big of a turbo? Go with a GT30R instead so you can get an earlier spool up?
GT35 spools just fine for me... I taked to Kingpin Motorsports, they said I`ll get full boost by 4,000... They achived 513 H/P on race gas.. Well I dont plan on daily driven with race gas... I`am shootin for 430-450whp around that area with a safe tune..which they did with like 91 gas If i can remember.
I do not want a daily driver above this, I see things breaking real soon near and above those power numbers with the numbers that I seen put down on that siliver sti I think 1/4 mile runs of 11.8-12.2 are possible

I think I`ll call around and talk to some tuners, and see whats up there
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Old 01-29-2005, 01:53 AM   #13
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Hydra all the way with something that big. Sure, there are high HP cars out there using the UTEC, but they are all using larger MAF tubes, and all of them have the associated "issues" that go along with the larger MAF tube. Those issues being, drivability that isn't near as good in a lot of ways.

You can't control throttle pump with the UTEC. Every time you tip in to the throttle, you run lean for a split second, then it catches up. Because, with the larger MAF housing, you're fooling the car.

You have to deal with the "crossover point" with the UTEC. Closed loop to open loop. That doesn't exist with the hydra.

My car, I don't even have a maf tube. Filter is clamped right on to the intake tube, and my V8 intake manifold has a temp sensor I'm using (instead of the one on the MAF). I end up with much more accurate intake temps that way as well, as the temps are post turbo (and intercooler for that matter).

My car is more drivable now than it ever was, except maybe the day I drove it off the lot

The only reason I can see not getting a hydra is if you aren't willing to put in the time to learn it, or don't have somebody in your area that can tune it for you. The engine management is only as good as the tuner obviously
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Old 01-29-2005, 02:42 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthChicken
Hydra all the way with something that big. Sure, there are high HP cars out there using the UTEC, but they are all using larger MAF tubes, and all of them have the associated "issues" that go along with the larger MAF tube. Those issues being, drivability that isn't near as good in a lot of ways.

You can't control throttle pump with the UTEC. Every time you tip in to the throttle, you run lean for a split second, then it catches up. Because, with the larger MAF housing, you're fooling the car.

You have to deal with the "crossover point" with the UTEC. Closed loop to open loop. That doesn't exist with the hydra.

My car, I don't even have a maf tube. Filter is clamped right on to the intake tube, and my V8 intake manifold has a temp sensor I'm using (instead of the one on the MAF). I end up with much more accurate intake temps that way as well, as the temps are post turbo (and intercooler for that matter).

My car is more drivable now than it ever was, except maybe the day I drove it off the lot

The only reason I can see not getting a hydra is if you aren't willing to put in the time to learn it, or don't have somebody in your area that can tune it for you. The engine management is only as good as the tuner obviously
Thanks Man!!! you SOLD me on the HYDRA when I talked to Kingpin
they said they could tune the HYDRA. And yes I plan on learning how to tune myself but it might take me awhile b/c I`am staring from scratch LOL, I dont know a dang thing about tuning with any system now!!!

But I have many years to Learn! I guess I`ll buy a book on tuning with turbocharged cars, and pick up what I can by callin Element Tuning,
I plan on getting all my turbo kit in 2 months, this will give me time to learn how to tune in general and with the Hydra

One more thing I never got a real straight answer if Hydra has map switiching?? If so could you tell me how many, I hope at least 3

Thanks Sean
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Old 01-30-2005, 09:47 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthChicken
My car, I don't even have a maf tube. Filter is clamped right on to the intake tube, and my V8 intake manifold has a temp sensor I'm using (instead of the one on the MAF). I end up with much more accurate intake temps that way as well, as the temps are post turbo (and intercooler for that matter).
I've been wanting to do that also but since I broke my second gear I've had other things on my mind. I thought about tapping the intake manifold and putting in an air temp sensor so I can get rid of the maf. Maybe I'll just get a ver8 intake manifold. Some recently offered one and some cash to traded for my TMIC.
Anyway, to stay on topic, my vote is for the Hydra. I have used/tuned the utec and hydra and find the the hydra gives me better consistancy plus complete control. If you are running an sti you'll also gain control of the AVCS. You'll find the the Hydra or any good standalone will have many more features than any piggy back like the utec. Some will say that the utec is better for daily drivability but I have yet to experience that. Once its tuned the only thing you'll notice as being different than stock is the start-up which takes 2-3 seconds. I could go on all day about why I like the Hydra but I don't have the time. Do your research and I think you'll end up buying a Hydra.
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Old 01-28-2005, 11:45 PM   #16
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their are definately some very high power cars out there on a utec.
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Old 01-29-2005, 02:45 AM   #17
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Go with EM that supports MAP.
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Old 01-29-2005, 02:50 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlee8196
Go with EM that supports MAP.
What does that mean??? me

P.S can Hydra Map switich??
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Old 01-29-2005, 10:38 AM   #19
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yes, the hydra can map switch
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Old 01-29-2005, 11:15 AM   #20
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i didnt think that the hydra could actually switch maps. i thought you had a main map and varations can be based off of it for WI, C16, ect.... correct me if im wrong.
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Old 01-29-2005, 11:37 AM   #21
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Correct, you have your base map, and then there is the auxiliary maps... that are offsets of the main map.

Example - at 4000rpm, 10psi of boost lets say your map says 8ms of fuel. The aux map has just as many cells as the main map (32x32 grid) so at that same point, you can add or subtract fuel in ms of fuel. Same thing with timing, 23 degrees, then plus or minus whatever you want.

So, basically you do have map switching ability.
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Old 01-29-2005, 09:39 PM   #22
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My head is spinning in so many directions!!!! To me it seems alright to go with the Hydra (with the GT35kit) I have asked this soo... many time`s try not to get mad at me

Okay hear me out.. With the hydra I have one GOOD base MAP,... Then I press a button or flip somethin, then I can have the auxiliary maps kick in OFF the BASE map which is the same 32x32 grid? BUT on that axuiliary grid you can have preset fuel and ingition timeing where you could add or retract with a laptop?? and save them for any time where you would need them??

PLEASE correct me...I`am trying to Learn, I need any and all correct advice!!!
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Old 01-29-2005, 09:49 PM   #23
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OK, lets try it this way. Pretend this is your base map

10 10 10 10 10
12 12 12 12 12
14 14 14 14 14

Ok, here's your aux. map

2 2 2 2 2
0 0 0 0 0
-2 -2 -2 -2 -2

So, if you flipped the switch for the aux map, you car would now be running:

12 12 12 12 12
12 12 12 12 12
12 12 12 12 12

Make sense now? First row, base was 10, I added 2, now running 12. Second row is zeros, no change. Last row I took out 2 from 14, running 12.

You can add, subtract, or leave at zeros. Timing map is adjustable in 1 degree increments, the fuel map is adjustable in 100ths of a millisecond of fuel.

As for the laptop part, that seperate. I have literally dozens of hydra maps (sometimes a couple a day) that I've kepts since I started playing with this thing. At any time, I could download any of those maps back on to the hydra. You can also edit them on your laptop seperately, same thing as you can do with the UTEC (if you have an editing software like utec edit).
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Old 01-29-2005, 10:28 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthChicken
OK, lets try it this way. Pretend this is your base map

10 10 10 10 10
12 12 12 12 12
14 14 14 14 14

Ok, here's your aux. map

2 2 2 2 2
0 0 0 0 0
-2 -2 -2 -2 -2

So, if you flipped the switch for the aux map, you car would now be running:

12 12 12 12 12
12 12 12 12 12
12 12 12 12 12

Make sense now? First row, base was 10, I added 2, now running 12. Second row is zeros, no change. Last row I took out 2 from 14, running 12.

You can add, subtract, or leave at zeros. Timing map is adjustable in 1 degree increments, the fuel map is adjustable in 100ths of a millisecond of fuel.

As for the laptop part, that seperate. I have literally dozens of hydra maps (sometimes a couple a day) that I've kepts since I started playing with this thing. At any time, I could download any of those maps back on to the hydra. You can also edit them on your laptop seperately, same thing as you can do with the UTEC (if you have an editing software like utec edit).

Thanks buddy I`am getting THIS My eyes are opening to the WORLD of tunning!!!

This is so cool I cant wait to get the HYDRA and by the tuning book LOL
tuning seems to be a good way to waste a DAY!!!

One more question? How many aux maps can you have!! and do you really flip a switich, or how does that work out..

Thanks Sean
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Old 01-29-2005, 10:52 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STi_Guy04
tuning seems to be a good way to waste a DAY!!!
heh...tuning start to finish isnt going to take a day...chances are its going to take a lot longer than a day....especially to tune all the different driving situations.
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