Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Thursday September 18, 2014
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
Click here to visit TireRack
Brakes & Suspension Forum sponsored by The Tire Rack

Losing traction? Need new tires?
Click here to visit the NASIOC Upgrade Garage...
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Technical > Brakes, Steering & Suspension

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-05-2006, 09:14 AM   #1
TougeAdict
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 76965
Join Date: Dec 2004
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Reston, VA
Vehicle:
2002 Silver WRX
1991 Toyota MR2

Default Sway Bars for 02 WRX

Im about to buy some sway bars for my 2002 WRX but I not sure which are good or not good. I kinda new to the Subie community. So I wanted to get some WRX Owners suggestion for sway bars. I used to have 1991 Mr2 that had a pretty nice suspension. So I am pretty familar with some brands. As you guys know though every car handles different. So thats why I was interested in some suggestions. Thanks for your help for the people that reply.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
TougeAdict is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2006, 09:21 AM   #2
ButtDyno
Street's closed, pizza boy
 
Member#: 17301
Join Date: Apr 2002
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Why do they always say the Evo
Vehicle:
is the "dark side"
06 Evo #7 STU, 03 IS300

Default

What do you use the car for?

There are a couple of bars that don't fit (Perrin?) but other than those, they are pretty much all the same. Pick a size and go. But the size should be based on the car's purpose.

john
ButtDyno is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2006, 09:43 AM   #3
TougeAdict
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 76965
Join Date: Dec 2004
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Reston, VA
Vehicle:
2002 Silver WRX
1991 Toyota MR2

Default

Well I was looking maybe 21mm or I could go 22mm. As far as use on the vehicle, Track use and street use (commute) basically...

I saw the Whiteline bars? How are those?
I know with cusco you kinda pay for name but are they worth it?
Does suspension tech make sway bars for 02 WRX? If so where can I find them?
TougeAdict is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2006, 09:43 AM   #4
GetSideways
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 44665
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: NY-RI
Vehicle:
03 wrx sedan
platinum

Default

What would be an example of a more aggresive, and more lax bar? mm's? And how big is the difference?
GetSideways is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2006, 10:55 AM   #5
Turn in Concepts
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 93646
Join Date: Aug 2005
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Vehicle:
Many Track Records
Let us help you go fast!

Default

The big names in swaybars that are of good quality, good fitment, and good customer support are (and this is the top few off the top of my head):

Whiteline
Cusco (you may pay for the name, but they got that name by being good)
Cobb
Hotchkis

One of the other things that you want to consider is endlinks, the pastic rears (and fronts if you have a wagon) are NFG and won't allow even the stock bars to be used to their full potential. Good names to consider on those is:

Kartboy
Whiteline


Now, as for aggressiveness of the bars - I have a few opinions on that one, but let me breakdown a few things you need to know first.

1) First off when comparing sways keep in mind the hollow vs solid bar and take that into consideration. For example - a hollow 22mm bar will be softer than a solid 22mm bar. The flip side of this is the consideration of weight. When doing your calculations you will need the wall thickness of the hollow bar. If you are doing straight up solid to solid comparisons whiteline (or other places on the web) have a nice matrix of percentage increases.
2) When considering a bar you have to think of the application in which it will be used - street only, street and some autocross, autocross only, roadrace only, all of the above, or whatever life throws at you.

As for what size bars to get, and this is my opinion based on experience, and is in consideration of solid bars (that's what I have the most experience with, and it makes for an easier comparison to stock).

For the rear bar - 22mm is good. You can pull off 24mm but the inside tire gets too light, and you lose traction in hard turns if you are on the stock springs. If you are considering going to 24mm or larger then you really really need to consider upgrading your springs first. See, the springs will stiffen not only the ride, but will also increase roll resistance. Now, stiffer springs does not have to mean a crappy ride. If you do your homework, and get a spring that a) doesn't have a stupidly low drop and b) are good for the operating range of your struts then the ride will feel just fine.

For the front - traditional thinking has held that if you want to fix understeer you want the rear to step out more. While this does work to some extent, I feel this is the wrong way to approach it. Sure CONTROLLABLE oversteer with the back stepping out is fun, and a good thing, but the front is still going wide. As part of this traditional thinking folks scream get a bigger rear bar, and leave the front alone or go smaller. I have to disagree on this. Here's why -

First, let's look at the technical reason. The dynamic camber curve for the mcpherson strut setup sucks. It just does. That's a tradeoff of running this type of setup, and all setups have their good and bad points. What happens is this - you enter a turn at speed. Your ourside front corner gets loaded with weight. That weight compresses the suspension. When the suspension compresses the camber of that wheel, where that tire is loaded, rolls toward positive camber. If you're running very little static negative camber this will actually start to make the inside edge of the tire light, reducing the width of your effective contact patch that resists lateral acceleration. This lose of traction results in that "push" or understeer condition. This is why folks who are more into performance run a decent amount of negative front camber. Sure, they give up some straight line accel and decel grip doing this, but that's more than offset by the fact that they can maximize the width of the contact patch in turns to help resist higher slip angles due to lateral acceleration. If you lower the car any with springs or coilovers that camber curve gets worse. Oh, and the added bumpsteer sucks too. Fortunately the fine fellows at 6Gun have figured out a way to help that, but that's for a different long post I'll most like use to answer somebodies questions in the next few days.

So, what they heck the the point in my saying all that? Well, let's get back to the front swaybar. The front swaybar will increase the effective spring rate of the wheel without effecting the ride spring rate. In other words, it will help keep the suspension from compressing so much at the loaded corner. Less compression means less loss of camber. Less loss of camber means that you can tune to, and maximize the contact patch of the tire to resist that push. Now, one of the things you need to consider - just like you can't make something from nothing, you can't make a good contact patch if you have nothing to give it to begin. Because the suspension will still compress some you need some negative camber in the front to start with. See the bajillion threads on alignment specs for where to start.

Now, for the second item I'd like to bring up something I've thought long and hard about for a long time. For ease I'll call it the philosphical side of the front suspension. Here's what we've got - a car that understeers or pushes quite a bit. Sure, you could throw a big bar in the rear and get the rear end to step out to help eliminate that understeer, but I feel that this is the wrong approach. The front of the car is still pushing, but the rear just happens to be stepping out at a faster rate than the front. The net result is a wider than what I feel is necessary lateral travel of the car. In other words, the rear is whipping around to point the front of the car where you want it to go, but the front of the car is still sliding sideways and taking the whole thing sideways making for a wider path than really is needed.

See, this stems from my philosophy that move oversteer does not necessarily mean less understeer. The front is still pushing. I feel the fix for this is to setup the front end of the car to truly reduce understeer as much as possible. This will make the front tuck in more, and while your tires will be resisting more lateral acceleration taking more grip from straight line acceleration (think traction circle), you'll be able to unwind from the turn faster thus getting you back toward the acceleration portion sooner than your competition. In other words, you'll be able to drive a tighter, and more controlled line.

Additionally, by reducing understeer as much as possible you won't have to set up the car for so much oversteer. This will also lead to more control, a tighter line, and the ability to accelerate sooner.

Now, that's great an all, but if you're looking for a simple answer as to what size bar to get then here it is (I'm giving these in terms of whiteline bars as I am most familiar with them):

Rear - 22mm to 24mm, but if you go to 24mm then you really want to think hard about upgrading your springs. If you go higher than 24mm then you are taking the wrong approach and trying to fix shortcomings of your springs with swaybars, and this is not the right way to do it. Get a proper spring for what you do, and then fine tune with a swaybar.

Front - for the street and mild autocross, and mild track work look at 24mm up front. If you start to get into it more then 26mm is good (WL makes a 24-26 adjustable front). These are also very good sizes if you are not a smooth driver as they won't make things too "darty" with super quick tuck of the front end into the apex. For autocross junkies or track whores who are smooth overall and can anticipate the "dartiness" then look at the 27 to 29mm front bar.

Now, two last thing on these considerations: You need a brand and size, and you need a vendor.

For the brand and size please do some research in the car parts review area. After receiving the parts you choose, and installing them please leave your feedback on them in the car parts review area so you can help others in the future.

The vendor part works the same way. Please research the vendors you are considering in the vendor review area. After the completion of the transaction please leave your feedback for that vendor in the vendor review area so that you can again help others in the future.


Today's message brought to you by the letter G and the number 32354956.
Turn in Concepts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2006, 11:08 AM   #6
ButtDyno
Street's closed, pizza boy
 
Member#: 17301
Join Date: Apr 2002
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Why do they always say the Evo
Vehicle:
is the "dark side"
06 Evo #7 STU, 03 IS300

Default

I need to add that to the FAQ Thanks! Awesome post.

john
ButtDyno is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2006, 11:11 AM   #7
strohausii
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 26770
Join Date: Oct 2002
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Tampa
Vehicle:
'02 WRX
midnight black

Default

+1 on checking if you already have the rear endlinks replaced; if not, do so first.
I think the 02 wrx's are the only wrx's to get 20mm swaybars front and back (other than the sti's).
strohausii is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2006, 11:23 AM   #8
GetSideways
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 44665
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: NY-RI
Vehicle:
03 wrx sedan
platinum

Default

Wow, how are your fingers feeling after that?

Great post....I have a set of agx's srtuts with H&R (1.5" drop) springs, but I am looking to try a different spring. I am wary of the washer mod's with top hat's so I can't run the spt pinks, and I have heard the prodrives are a little bouncy. In addition I wan't to remove as much understeer/push as possible.

Im thinking better springs, with F&R swaybars, and a set of end links...possibly a touch of negative camber for the alignment....

Or even swapping to a set of Sti struts/springs and doing the sway bars and links....

My driving is mostly (highly spirited street) with some track on the side.(no offroad), but I cannot decide what to go with.....

What would you recomend???
GetSideways is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2006, 12:02 PM   #9
Turn in Concepts
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 93646
Join Date: Aug 2005
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Vehicle:
Many Track Records
Let us help you go fast!

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GetSideways View Post
Wow, how are your fingers feeling after that?

Great post....I have a set of agx's srtuts with H&R (1.5" drop) springs, but I am looking to try a different spring. I am wary of the washer mod's with top hat's so I can't run the spt pinks, and I have heard the prodrives are a little bouncy. In addition I wan't to remove as much understeer/push as possible.

Im thinking better springs, with F&R swaybars, and a set of end links...possibly a touch of negative camber for the alignment....

Or even swapping to a set of Sti struts/springs and doing the sway bars and links....

My driving is mostly (highly spirited street) with some track on the side.(no offroad), but I cannot decide what to go with.....

What would you recomend???


My PERSONAL opinion on this one -

for springs call up myles and talk to him about the swifts or his new RCE springs.

For the sways, I would do the 27-29 front (I'm a rather aggressive street driver, off street, sanctioned event whore), and the somewhat big 24mm rear bar.

Whiteline part numbers for the bars in your case on an 03 Sedan:

Front BSF33XXZ
Rear BSR33XZ BUT see below
Endlinks at least on the rear.

here's the below: For that large of a rear bar i strongly recommend that you get the 04+ Subaru swaybar chassis mounts. They strengthened them in 04. Call up Subie Gal and order them they are cheap. If they come with new loops (Subie Gal let me know if they do), then you need to change the rear bar to the BSR36XZ. The 33 and 36 bars are the same, but the bushings are slightly different.
Turn in Concepts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2006, 12:11 PM   #10
GetSideways
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 44665
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: NY-RI
Vehicle:
03 wrx sedan
platinum

Default

Awesome....Thanks for taking the time out to answer my questions.....

So these Swift springs are really good huh? I have never heard of them except for on here....Where can I find this Myles fella?
GetSideways is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2006, 03:55 PM   #11
strohausii
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 26770
Join Date: Oct 2002
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Tampa
Vehicle:
'02 WRX
midnight black

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turn in Concepts View Post
....here's the below: For that large of a rear bar i strongly recommend that you get the 04+ Subaru swaybar chassis mounts. They strengthened them in 04. Call up Subie Gal and order them they are cheap. If they come with new loops (Subie Gal let me know if they do), then you need to change the rear bar to the BSR36XZ. The 33 and 36 bars are the same, but the bushings are slightly different....
They are separate, but same on both sides so you will need 4 part numbers (x1) left & (x1) right brackets, x2 loops, x2 of those nuts (reuse 2 existing bolts)... bigskywrx (sp?) had a write up on it...
strohausii is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2006, 04:00 PM   #12
Samurai Jack
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 21145
Join Date: Jul 2002
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Not in my own time
Vehicle:
2002 Enemy of Aku

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GetSideways View Post
....Where can I find this Myles fella?
http://www.racecompengineering.com/
Samurai Jack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2006, 04:11 PM   #13
GetSideways
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 44665
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: NY-RI
Vehicle:
03 wrx sedan
platinum

Default

Thanks guys......
GetSideways is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2006, 04:40 PM   #14
Samurai Jack
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 21145
Join Date: Jul 2002
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Not in my own time
Vehicle:
2002 Enemy of Aku

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turn in Concepts View Post

Now, as for aggressiveness of the bars - I have a few opinions on that one, but let me breakdown a few things you need to know first.

...

Today's message brought to you by the letter G and the number 32354956.
Very nice indeed. Hopefully people will take the time to completely read your post through and understand it as it is a nice, easy to read description of what is going on.
Samurai Jack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2006, 05:48 PM   #15
TougeAdict
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 76965
Join Date: Dec 2004
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Reston, VA
Vehicle:
2002 Silver WRX
1991 Toyota MR2

Default

No Thanks Guys for all your replies!!! VERY VERY Helpful
TougeAdict is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2006, 06:30 PM   #16
dyslexicwrx
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 46031
Join Date: Oct 2003
Chapter/Region: TXIC
Location: Austin, Texas
Vehicle:
2009 STi
Silver

Default

I have the Cobb Stage 1 and it worked really well.. I have it set to track mode. THey are very stiff and no noise at all.
dyslexicwrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2006, 06:31 PM   #17
semaj
I'm sorry for apologizing
Moderatour
 
Member#: 113533
Join Date: Apr 2006
Chapter/Region: VIC
Location: Vancouver, BC
Vehicle:
2006 Pathfinder
Off Road

Default

Wow great thread...makes me want a 27/29mm front sway and 24mm rear sway to replace my current 20mm front and rear
semaj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2006, 08:19 PM   #18
sticy
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 115178
Join Date: May 2006
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Pensacola FL
Vehicle:
2004 Widebody Silver
2.5RS Turbo

Default

Very informative post Turn in Concepts. I soaked up all I could. Thanks for the wealth of information on sway bars, it will help me a great deal.
sticy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2006, 04:05 AM   #19
AndyRoo
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 20952
Join Date: Jul 2002
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Baltimore, MD
Vehicle:
MINI & Datsun
BRG & White

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turn in Concepts View Post
My PERSONAL opinion on this one -

for springs call up myles and talk to him about the swifts or his new RCE springs.

For the sways, I would do the 27-29 front (I'm a rather aggressive street driver, off street, sanctioned event whore), and the somewhat big 24mm rear bar.

Whiteline part numbers for the bars in your case on an 03 Sedan:

Front BSF33XXZ
Rear BSR33XZ BUT see below
Endlinks at least on the rear.

here's the below: For that large of a rear bar i strongly recommend that you get the 04+ Subaru swaybar chassis mounts. They strengthened them in 04. Call up Subie Gal and order them they are cheap. If they come with new loops (Subie Gal let me know if they do), then you need to change the rear bar to the BSR36XZ. The 33 and 36 bars are the same, but the bushings are slightly different.

Wow....well done TiC. Well done. I'll holla at Myles for ya'll...


for myles it's:
410-579-1501


- andrew

Last edited by AndyRoo; 03-18-2007 at 06:29 PM.
AndyRoo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2006, 11:54 AM   #20
javid
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 54304
Join Date: Feb 2004
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Atlanta
Vehicle:
04 STi
TopSpeed-dAng!

Default

Also, consider whether you will be running high spring rate coilovers later on. If so, you may want a smaller bar or no bar at all.

javid (and the letter H)
~who may go to a stock bar up front with the next set of coilovers.
javid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2006, 07:40 PM   #21
TougeAdict
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 76965
Join Date: Dec 2004
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Reston, VA
Vehicle:
2002 Silver WRX
1991 Toyota MR2

Default

Now, I found a Whiteline Hard Sway Bar mount kit? Is it really worth getting? Here is a link http://www.fastwrx.com/whhdswbarmok.html. For they people that have it, was it worth the purchase or no? Let me Know
TougeAdict is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2006, 11:06 AM   #22
Samurai Jack
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 21145
Join Date: Jul 2002
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Not in my own time
Vehicle:
2002 Enemy of Aku

Default

It depends on what you intend to do with your car, so the answer is both "yes" and "no".

If you are not going to change the rear bar from OEM, then probably not BUT, it will shorten the response time of the RSB since you will eliminate the sloppiness of the OEM rear mount.

If you go to a larger RSB, then "yes" for the above reason as well as a stronger mounting point for the larger bar.

Since you have an '02, many have simply used the OEM '04 rear mounts, which are a stronger upgrade from the '02s and a lot less expensive than the Whiteline unit, but not as strong.

To me, it was worth the expense.
Samurai Jack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2006, 07:06 PM   #23
SUPAREX
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 28278
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: San Francisco
Vehicle:
02 WRX
Platinum

Default

Now, I found a Whiteline Hard Sway Bar mount kit? Is it really worth getting? Here is a link http://www.fastwrx.com/whhdswbarmok.html. For they people that have it, was it worth the purchase or no? Let me Know

Yes, do it!
SUPAREX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2006, 07:07 PM   #24
SUPAREX
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 28278
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: San Francisco
Vehicle:
02 WRX
Platinum

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TougeAdict View Post
Now, I found a Whiteline Hard Sway Bar mount kit? Is it really worth getting? Here is a link http://www.fastwrx.com/whhdswbarmok.html. For they people that have it, was it worth the purchase or no? Let me Know

Yes, do it!
SUPAREX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2006, 10:59 PM   #25
pornie
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 5620
Join Date: Apr 2001
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: MKE
Default

wow, nice post TiC.

in regards to brand, i love whitelines kit. very high quality stuff at a decent price.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TougeAdict View Post
Now, I found a Whiteline Hard Sway Bar mount kit? Is it really worth getting? Here is a link http://www.fastwrx.com/whhdswbarmok.html. For they people that have it, was it worth the purchase or no? Let me Know
depends on how big you go, imo. if your running a 22, not much need for it. 24 w/ a decent amount of track time? upgrade them.


just as a side note, what kind of driving do you do, condition wise? one of the down falls of going bigger bars is the car can tend to "skate" more on slippery surfaces aka snow/gravel.
pornie is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
FS: NEW Whiteline Fixed Front Sway bar for 02+ WRX BNastyer Suspension/Brakes/Handling 15 09-14-2006 12:02 PM
WTB: Cusco FRONT sway bar for 02 wrx sedan (I'm in SoCal) sevendhappy Private 'Wanted' Classifieds 2 10-13-2005 04:56 PM
Pittsburgh PA: front and rear Cusco sway bars for 02+ WRX dexterous Private 'For Sale' Classifieds 7 09-08-2005 02:20 PM
WTB: Whiteline front adjustable 22mm sway bar for 02 WRX Wagon macboat Private 'Wanted' Classifieds 0 08-20-2003 04:27 PM
FS: used spt front sway bar for 02 WRX [freeman] Canada Region Forum 11 01-25-2003 11:45 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:47 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2014 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2014, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.