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Old 10-05-2008, 10:44 AM   #51
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I commend you for using a dial indicator to get a qualitative answer.

On a side note, a motor introduces torque via a moment from the crankshaft. You are introducing a moment into the tranny input shaft via an arm and a "pushing down" force. Some of that force is pushing down on the input shaft and into the tranny case. Curious if you get the same deflection by "lifting up" the torque wrench.
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Old 10-05-2008, 11:01 AM   #52
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<-- Also professional experience testing products to destruction and 4 years in a metrological bachelor's degree program (Metrology, the science of measurement, not to be mistaken with metallurgy or meteorology).
Interesting field of study. Aside from creating sport compact car modifications, what sort of career might you make of this? You could work for NASA, but government jobs in the scientific arena don't seem to pay well. I'm just curious what motivated you in that direction...
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Old 10-05-2008, 02:29 PM   #53
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Interesting field of study. Aside from creating sport compact car modifications, what sort of career might you make of this? You could work for NASA, but government jobs in the scientific arena don't seem to pay well. I'm just curious what motivated you in that direction...
I went through the first couple years of a computer science degree and decided working in a cubicle was not going to be for me. Needed tuition money so I got myself an inspection job. I really got caught up in the idea of manufacturing quality control and changed my major accordingly. The degree in Metrology is mainly aimed at calibration lab work, which can be reasonably lucrative, and lots of companies look for people with good metrological knowledge for R&D work and quality engineering. I am currently a quality manager, but I'm often pulled off to work with our engineering dept. for prototyping and testing, mainly on the tooling side of things.

I'm getting a bit tired of corporate limitations these days though... Cost has become such a factor, and in many industries engineers have their hands tied by the bean counters, often backed by an army of VPs that have no clue how their products are put together and therefore have little ability to manage the business. So I'm trying to get my own operation off the ground now (Nighthawk Automotive Engineering).

Thanks for your interest

Last edited by jhargis; 10-06-2008 at 01:47 PM.
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Old 10-05-2008, 02:47 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by 2milehi View Post
I commend you for using a dial indicator to get a qualitative answer.

On a side note, a motor introduces torque via a moment from the crankshaft. You are introducing a moment into the tranny input shaft via an arm and a "pushing down" force. Some of that force is pushing down on the input shaft and into the tranny case. Curious if you get the same deflection by "lifting up" the torque wrench.
Indeed that's another limitation of the test fixture. Because I am not generating a balanced axial load, my measurements could be affected by lateral force applied to the input shaft through the torque wrench.

While it is technically qualitative data, it's all relative measurement... So I can't say, for example, with certainty that any spot I was measuring was moving as much as the dial gauge indicated... some of that distortion could be in the bellhousing to which the dial gauge was mounted. What I can say is that position x had more or less flex than position y relative to a point on the bellhousing in my collected data set. You can also use this to follow paths of flex. I took measurements running down the bottom of the case, and the further back I went the more flex I measured, while there was far less flex along the top "spine" of the case, which is an indicator that the case is twisting on an axis running lengthwise near the top of the case. One thing that I can say with certainty is that there is a substantial amount of flex in the case as a whole.

You have to figure that dropping the clutch from redline potentially generates thousands of ft/lbs of torque for a split second (even a small hand held impact gun can make 250+ft/lbs). So even with these limitations in mind, I can't imagine that this level of flex in the case is not harmful to the internals of the case in some way, especially with more torque applied where I would expect even higher levels of case distortion.

Last edited by jhargis; 10-05-2008 at 02:52 PM.
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Old 10-23-2008, 08:26 PM   #55
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Quick update for those who have been following this project:

I got the sample bolts in and was very pleased. They are in a nice flat black finish and everything fits quite nicely, so I will be running another test with the reinforcement on to see if and where I can make any improvements before finalizing the design and finishing up the production jig. All is well

Once I get everything finilized, I'll probably be getting in touch with DS1 and getting a pre-production example in Dylan's hands to get an expert opinion fairly soon.
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Old 10-23-2008, 11:45 PM   #56
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My transmission is done also. Headed to the track on sunday. Ill let you know the results
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Old 10-24-2008, 12:00 AM   #57
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Great

Everything fit ok?
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Old 10-24-2008, 03:08 PM   #58
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Great

Everything fit ok?
fits mint! trans feels good now, just need to get it to the track and beat it up
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Old 10-28-2008, 12:41 AM   #59
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Another update: Testing and development are pretty much done. Just sourcing a few last minute things. Tooling for building the main reinforcement is good to go, just need to build the jig for the front diff brace.

I've posted a detailed write up on my website, it's in the tech articles section
http://www.nighthawkautomotive.com/

Heads up: If the link gets the attention of any mods, I have yet to begin selling anything, and there is no functioning section for online orders on the site. Still aiming at getting Dylan at DS1 on-board for the vendor side of things as soon as I can get another order out for materials/bolts with which to build the first run of 10 units and a couple samples to send out to other potential vendors.
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Old 10-28-2008, 01:23 AM   #60
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You know that sounds great and all but after 164k hard miles I have regular wear and tear on my trans case. Why not make a stronger case for stonger gears?
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Old 10-28-2008, 10:46 AM   #61
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^^^ In basic terms, an entire aftermarket case would be prohibitively expensive. Very few people would be willing to spend $1,500 at minimum just for a 5mt case to house their expensive gears. Actually, with fairly low production numbers, it would probably be a lot more than $1,500. Making large cast parts with multiple locations that require precision machining can get very expensive in small scale production. For that kinda money, you could use a much stronger 6mt case and put expensive gears in that.

That's why I'm trying to keep it down around $100 for the main reinforcement and about $50 or so for the diff brace. Folks are more willing to add a little stregnth at an affordable price.

Funny side note that I found during testing: The upgraded hardware accounts for about half of the reinforcement's stregnth. Dimensional change was measureably decreased with the stiffer/stronger bolts holding the reinforcement in as compared to some class 8.8 bolts I tested (equivalent to stock, but longer to accomodate the reinforcement). Needless to say, I'm looking into putting a full class 10.9 5mt bolt set together in the near future

I haven't finished the write-up on testing with the reinforcement on, but with the reinforcement and improved bolts installed, it took about 350ft./lbs. of input torque for torsional distortion to equal what you'd find in the case at the stock 230ft./lbs. without the reinforcement. So basically, it still flexes with the reinforcement on, but it takes quite a bit more torque to get it to flex the same amount... Which is pretty much exactly what I was aiming for. And the diff brace cut flex roughly in half at the peak point of expansion just above the driver's side axle stub... I measured a bit over .003" at stock torque without the brace, and that figure came down to just a barely crossing the .001" mark on the dial gauge with the brace installed.
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Old 10-28-2008, 12:13 PM   #62
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Well if you want to see mine since your in socal your welcome. Yet I don't see any of the prone problems you mention. Currently have 164k on the case and 64k on the ppg gears. I have been through the stock set and two sets of ra's before these. Also have ppg selector forks and obx front diff. You can say I drive pretty hard. Power is only 240 whp. Recently switched to a snout repair kit as well.

I think you have a good idea but still need more work. As well as something more visually pleasing to look at not just functional.
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Old 10-28-2008, 12:38 PM   #63
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Any pics of the final prototype?
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Old 10-28-2008, 02:22 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by jhargis View Post
I'm looking into putting a full class 10.9 5mt bolt set together in the near future .
This is a good idea. I was waiting to see you do this and I am glad that you are thinking about it.

Have you checked to see how much the 6MT flexes compared to the 5MT? This is some-what of an important number for me to see to gauge how weak the 5MT case really is.

My next question comes to heat/cooling... Do the braces interfere with heat dissipation of the trans? Is the heat even creating any problem on gear failures? Would adding an external cooler help to get any more life out of the gears?

Last edited by axelthrasher; 10-28-2008 at 02:37 PM.
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Old 10-28-2008, 03:45 PM   #65
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Well if you want to see mine since your in socal your welcome. Yet I don't see any of the prone problems you mention. Currently have 164k on the case and 64k on the ppg gears. I have been through the stock set and two sets of ra's before these. Also have ppg selector forks and obx front diff. You can say I drive pretty hard. Power is only 240 whp. Recently switched to a snout repair kit as well.

I think you have a good idea but still need more work. As well as something more visually pleasing to look at not just functional.
Well, you went through 3 gearsets in that case, 2 of which were marginally stronger than stock. I don't claim and have not claimed that case distortion is the #1 cause of gear failure either... Just trying to bring something to the table that helps a bit at an affordable price. I'd think that 3 broken gearsets probably points to something not being kosher. And with seemlingly high failure rates, the 5mt has it's share of design flaws. I can't personally yell "driver error" as I have gone through 2 transmissions myself!

I think PPGs are just so beefy that they have a much higher tolerance for any excessive gear clearance that may be accomodated by the flexible case and bearings mounted within. Instances of PPG gear failure are pretty rare, but people have managed to break them too.

As for the appearance... I could have sworn I heard some noise coming from the garage the other night. Were you in there taking a look? I haven't posted pics of it yet. You might be mistaking the pic of the raw steel bolt pattern template I posted up earlier for the actual reinforcement. In regards to the final product, with the final shape and cross-bracing, I think it looks pretty neat actually

I completely understand your skepticism though. There certainly is no shortage of false claims in modern advertising and such. I guess at a certain point, as a consumer you have to look at the idea behind a product and the information you have avaiable about the product to decide whether it's something that you feel is worth your hard earned money or not.

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Any pics of the final prototype?
Sure. I'll throw some paint on it tonight after work and try to get some pics posted with the reinforcement by itself and installed on the trans.

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Originally Posted by axelthrasher View Post
This is a good idea. I was waiting to see you do this and I am glad that you are thinking about it.

Have you checked to see how much the 6MT flexes compared to the 5MT? This is some-what of an important number for me to see to gauge how weak the 5MT case really is.

My next question comes to heat/cooling... Do the braces interfere with heat dissipation of the trans? Is the heat even creating any problem on gear failures? Would adding an external cooler help to get any more life out of the gears?
The bolts definitely help, and I think I can keep the set fairly affordable. Looking into it hopefully today or tomorrow to get pricing all lined up.

Unfortunately I do not have a spare 6mt laying around. So I have not compared the two. Sure would be interesting though.

Actually the brace is spaced away from the trans case, so if anything, the added surface area should aid in cooling... Though steel is not the best conductor of heat as far as metals go. I think a dedicated cooler certainly couldn't hurt, especially if you plan on running the car at the track. In fact, I think Dylan @ DS1 has been working on something of that sort.

Last edited by jhargis; 10-28-2008 at 04:26 PM.
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Old 10-28-2008, 10:06 PM   #66
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Sorry guys, i didnt get to go to the track this sunday friday should be a good day to go for a test and tune!
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Old 10-28-2008, 10:47 PM   #67
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Well I figure I'd offer. As well see what you were talking about in person. My trans has been through a lot more then most. As well in and out of the car more then other people out there. I have never been as scared to drive this car, unlike many out there. Considering what your saying I really suprized I have never needed a new case until now. Recently I stripped out the threads for the slave cyl. As well had a problem with the pin for inside the case. If there was a stronger case. I would be the first one in line for it.

Well we shall see what happens after I build my 400whp
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Old 10-29-2008, 12:34 AM   #68
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Sorry guys, i didnt get to go to the track this sunday friday should be a good day to go for a test and tune!
Not a problem man.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hybrid gti 2 View Post
Well I figure I'd offer. As well see what you were talking about in person. My trans has been through a lot more then most. As well in and out of the car more then other people out there. I have never been as scared to drive this car, unlike many out there. Considering what your saying I really suprized I have never needed a new case until now. Recently I stripped out the threads for the slave cyl. As well had a problem with the pin for inside the case. If there was a stronger case. I would be the first one in line for it.

Well we shall see what happens after I build my 400whp
Catastrophic failure of the case is pretty rare to be honest, and when it does occur in that area around the axle stub, it's likely due to wheel hop... FWD enthusiasts know all about this. The case isn't so weak that it falls apart, it's just weak enough to flex more than it probably should under load.

I appreciate the offer. Likewise, if you're really interested in seeing the part in person, or even the test fixture for that matter, I'd be happy to arrange a time for you to drop by my home shop and give it a look see. I will have pics of the actual part posted up in a few minutes as soon as the paint dries though. And a couple video clips from my testing should be up on my site as soon as I download them from my camera and format them for internet use.
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Old 10-29-2008, 02:08 AM   #69
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The main reinforcement prototype is pictured below. This was used for layout and testing purposes. The production version will be better looking, but the layout will be identical. Paint will also be MUCH better on the production parts. The large solid square stock strip running top to bottom helps limit vertical expansion (the type most likely to accompany added gear clearance) and the cross-bracing strengthens the assembly against torsional flex spreading back from the area around the front pinion bearing.



Something to note. Because prototype layout is much easier and quicker to do using a messy MIG machine, the welds are a bit bulky. For aesthetic purposes, the production version will use much nicer TIG welds, pictured below... For the sharp folks: you'll notice that this is the weld in the bottom left corner of the prototype.



The base plate is cut out and then I clamp it into a jig on my milling machine and end-mill the cut sections of the plate to ensure a nice finish and very straight machined cuts.



As for the bolts, here are the class 10.9 bolts in a black oxide finish next to the stock class 8.8 bolts with the light metallic zinc finish.

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Old 10-29-2008, 11:24 AM   #70
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Looking better

Might take you up on that offer sometime.
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Old 10-29-2008, 04:30 PM   #71
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What is the final price going to be with all of the 10.9 grade replacement hardware? I for sure plan on picking one of these sets up for my next trans rebuild which will hopefully include PPG straight cut syncro-mesh 1-4, and some sort of new differential.
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Old 10-29-2008, 10:02 PM   #72
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Looks like the bolt set will be all 17 bolts on the transmission case ahead of the center diff section. I'm not bothering with the center diff section because the upgraded hardware will be threading into the aluminum case, and the thread is not deep enough to reach the class 10.9 bolt's recommended minimum torque spec without risking stripping out the crappy cast aluminum material being threaded into . In other words, stronger center diff section bolts would be too strong for the Subaru 5mt!

So for the 17 class 10.9 bolts that can be safely installed: This is ball park right now, but the retail price will probably end up falling between $80-$100. Hopefully closer to $80, but I'll have to get in touch with my supplier and figure out what the minimum orders are for each part# and see what kind of deal I can swing.

Once I get the reinforcement deal all complete I'll move on to the bolt set and get in touch with some vendors to see if anybody is game for carrying these... I can't see why they wouldn't be.

Last edited by jhargis; 10-30-2008 at 12:24 PM.
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Old 10-30-2008, 09:14 AM   #73
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Sounds good to me thus far, but as for the $80 that is just for the hardware, with that being said how much more for the reinforcement plates?
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Old 10-30-2008, 09:29 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by jhargis View Post
Looks like the bolt set will be all 17 bolts on the transmission case ahead of the center diff section. I'm not bothering with the center diff section because the upgraded hardware will be threading into the aluminum case, and the thread is not deep enough to reach the class 10.9 bolt's minimum recommended minimum torque spec without risking stripping out the crappy cast aluminum material being threaded into . In other words, stronger center diff section bolts would be too strong for the Subaru 5mt!

So for the 17 class 10.9 bolts that can be safely installed: This is ball park right now, but the retail price will probably end up falling between $80-$100. Hopefully closer to $80, but I'll have to get in touch with my supplier and figure out what the minimum orders are for each part# and see what kind of deal I can swing.

Once I get the reinforcement deal all complete I'll move on to the bolt set and get in touch with some vendors to see if anybody is game for carrying these... I can't see why they wouldn't be.

you're not trying to "sell" anything here are you?

nooooooo.... you wouldn't do that because that's against the rules of the forum.

right?

thought so.

no more talk of selling this or that or pricing..... please.

yep. that'd be a warning
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Old 10-30-2008, 10:24 AM   #75
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you're not trying to "sell" anything here are you?

nooooooo.... you wouldn't do that because that's against the rules of the forum.

right?

thought so.

no more talk of selling this or that or pricing..... please.

yep. that'd be a warning
Understood... You got it . I appreciate your leniency.

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Sounds good to me thus far, but as for the $80 that is just for the hardware, with that being said how much more for the reinforcement plates?
Sorry man, you heard Subie Gal above, and I sense that it wouldn't be wise to cross her. If you look back through the thread you might find your answer though

I'll be putting the order through for bolts/materials here shortly so I can build a sample and get it to DS1. If Dylan wants to get on board then he can legimately post whatever other info needs to be included (since he's a nasioc vendor).

Last edited by jhargis; 10-30-2008 at 12:19 PM.
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