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Old 11-14-2008, 02:02 PM   #1
AKGC8
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Default Cusco Type II lower bar for autocross?

I always see people say it's illegal on here for ST, SM, etc apparently because it mounts in 2 different places on both sides. However strut bars are legal between the lower suspension mount points. Both places the Type II bars connect are the forward and rear control arm mounts. Seems to me that would make it legal.
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Old 11-14-2008, 07:50 PM   #2
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Cusco Type II Lower Bar?

I don't think it'll meet the wording for strut bars.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2008 National Solo Rules 15.2.C
Strut bars are permitted with all types of suspension. Strut bars may be mounted only transversely across the car from upper right to upper left suspension mounting point and from lower right to lower left suspension mounting point. No other configuration is permitted. Only bolt-on attachment is permitted. Additional holes may be drilled for mounting bolts. Interior trim panels may be modified to allow installation of strut bars. Holes or slots may be no larger than necessary and may serve no other purpose. This does not permit any modifications to the frame or unibody beyond the allowed mounting holes.
It specifically says only transverse configurations are allowed, but one could argue that the four mounting points add additional fore <-> aft configurations. Note that ST uses the same wording, and SM inherits the strut bar allowance from SP/ST. I see no issue with the Type I though.

Maybe it could be considered a subframe connector for SP, but that won't fly either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2008 National Solo Rules 15.2.E
Longitudinal (fore-aft) subframe connectors (“SFCs”) are permitted with the following restrictions:
  1. They must only connect previously unconnected boxed frame rails on unibody vehicles.
  2. Each SFC must attach at no more than three points on the unibody (e.g. front, rear, and one point in between such as a seat mount brace or rocker box brace).
  3. SFCs must be bolted or welded, but welding must be to the OE subframe stampings, not to the floor pan in between.
  4. No cutting of OE subframes or floorpan stampings is permitted. Drilling is permitted for mounting bolts only.
  5. No cross-car/lateral/triangulated connections directly between the driver’s side and passenger’s side SFCs are permitted. Connections to OE components such as tunnel braces or closure panels via bolts are allowed and count as the third point of attachment. No alteration to the OE components is permitted.
  6. SFCs may not be used to attach other components (including but not limited to torque arm front mounts or driveshaft loops) and may serve no other purpose.
That being said, you might be ok for local events, but I wouldn't run it at National stuff. Spend the money on suspension and tires.
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Old 11-14-2008, 08:33 PM   #3
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Yea it connects the forward control arm mount to the rear, but big picture all it is doing is connecting lower suspension mounting points. I think the rule is worded the way it is to outlaw triangulated bars that connect the suspension mounting points to the chassis in the middle. If you really want to get technical, the upper strut bars connect three points on each side to the other.
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Old 11-14-2008, 11:22 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eby View Post
Yea it connects the forward control arm mount to the rear, but big picture all it is doing is connecting lower suspension mounting points. I think the rule is worded the way it is to outlaw triangulated bars that connect the suspension mounting points to the chassis in the middle. If you really want to get technical, the upper strut bars connect three points on each side to the other.
If you really want to get technical, you will get protested and your car will be deemed illegal.

Can you run it on your car and not have to worry about it? yes. Could you run it at a national event and expect to not get hassled if you place? no
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Old 11-14-2008, 11:24 PM   #5
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Okay somebody would protest, but that doesn't mean it would be deemed illegal. What in the rule book makes it illegal, cause there's nothing that I can find.
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Old 11-15-2008, 12:14 AM   #6
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"suspension mounting point" your bar attaches to mounting pointS.

Send an email to Doug Gill @ the SCCA if you would like.
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Old 11-15-2008, 12:49 AM   #7
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Mounts to 2 different points of the lower control arm, the upper strut bars mount to three different points of the strut mounts.

I'll send an e-mail to him to see what he says.
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Old 11-15-2008, 10:11 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eby View Post
If you really want to get technical, the upper strut bars connect three points on each side to the other.
I'm with wrx wagone here: the towers are the two suspension points and the three "points" on each side are considered mounting bolts.

Let us know what Doug/SCCA say, if he/they say otherwise. I'd hate to be wrong because I just bought myself a mad tyte JDM strut bar...
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Old 11-15-2008, 10:38 AM   #9
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hope you like "F Prepared" "XP" or one of the MOD classes....

I see your argument...however, you know what they say...if the rules doesn't specifically recognize something...them most likely its illegal for that class...
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Old 11-16-2008, 12:01 AM   #10
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^^ Ditto. Nothing says you can't do it, but if nothing says you CAN do it, then you can't.
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Old 11-16-2008, 12:18 AM   #11
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How are "lower left" and "lower right" suspension mounting points defined?
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Old 11-18-2008, 03:51 PM   #12
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I did e-mail Doug Gill but haven't heard back yet.

Just to throw out there for more discussion. With the Cusco Type II bar, would it be legal if you cut the cross bars that connect the forward and rear bar together. That way you'd have 1 forward bar that tied together the front LCA mounts and 1 rear bar that tied together the rear LCA mounts.
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Old 11-18-2008, 04:16 PM   #13
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I think it'd only be legal if you used just 1 piece (ie a single cross member).
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Old 11-18-2008, 08:27 PM   #14
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That type ii bar is definitely illegal for ST* use. Sure you might be able to run it and no one will know but start doing well and you will get protested and you'll lose. That bar is a triangulated brace. You know it. I know it. Your competition knows it.

Remember this mantra and chant it while reading the rules:
If it doesn't say you can: you can't.
If it doesn't say you can: you can't.
If it doesn't say you can: you can't.

I'm the Solo Events Chairman for the Las Vegas Region SCCA. If someone filed a protest against you in my region for that bar, you'd lose.


You really want to stiffen up that area? Upgrade your bushings. Lot o' flex there.


Last edited by 68Cadillac; 11-18-2008 at 08:39 PM.
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Old 11-18-2008, 09:28 PM   #15
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From searching the SCCA forums, some of the hardliners think that the rules as they're written make it illegal for the typical Subaru upper strut bar because it technically mounts in 3 places on each side.

An upper strut bar mounting via a plate in 3 different places will provide some rigidity in other axes besides just tension between the strut towers unless there is some sort of helical joint used. I guess they came out with a change a year or so ago mid season requiring just such a joint because of that. However everyone bitched because it basically makes almost every bar on the market illegal and they rescinded the change. Yea that rigidity is probably minimal in comparison to the cusco type ii bar I'm asking about, but where do you draw the line.

All I'm saying is there needs to be some clarification. If the upper strut bars everyone uses are legal, then there is an argument for the cusco type ii style lower bars.

Last edited by AKGC8; 11-18-2008 at 09:41 PM.
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Old 11-18-2008, 10:56 PM   #16
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^^ No. Yes, they technically attach in 3 places, but it's a single mounting point, the top of the strut tower. The biggest part is that it is a single member that (simplified stick drawings) goes from point A to point B. Almost every bar I've ever seen uses a plate or other feature to attach to the strut towers (can't recall any that don't honestly).

The cusco mount, in stick figure form, has multiple members and mulitiple dispersed mounting points that can't be simplified into a single point for arguments sake. There are also X braces and triangulated braces that, while they may use a plate as the base for mounting, have multiple members and multiple dispersed mounting points.

Here are some pics to help you out. Top left, illegal, top right, legal, lower right, illegal. I also drew a diagram of the cusco type II. As shown in black (standard configuration) it's illegal. The blue setup (if you cut it and kept only that portion) is legal and is essentially the cusco type 1. The purple configuration is also legal (though not very functional for your purposes) as it connects lower left suspension mounting point to the lower right. The green bit (IMO) is also legal (if you use it without either center portions) as it falls under the fore/aft subframe connecter that can connect in 3 places max front to back and not side to side. You cannot combined the blue, purple, or green portions as if you do this, it becomes illegal.



There are a ton more things you can do to your car and even more things you can do for your driving skills. I don't have this bar, never did, and still beat most of the cars in the regions I compete in in raw times, and have places first in pax several times. This bar can't and won't make or break your times or driving experience.
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Old 11-18-2008, 11:08 PM   #17
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I'm just telling you what some people think, and what the SEB did last year to try to outlaw what you would consider a legal upper strut bar. The same problem they had with the typical upper strut bar is basically what the Cusco Type II does, just better.

http://sccaforums.com/forums/post/235778.aspx
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Old 11-19-2008, 09:23 AM   #18
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No, they are vastly different. We've explained that several times, you just seem adamant on finding a loophole to use a part that for whatever reason you absolutely want to have.

Take a good look at that thread you posted and read all of it. The SEB rescinded all of the crap about the single axis/heim joint strut bars. Their intent was to make triangulated (ie, 3 distictly separated points on 3 distictinctly separate features ie, 2 towers and a firewall) illegal. Not to make SB's illegal that attach to 2 separate points (ie, 2 strut towers) even if they do technically attach through 3 closely spaced points that can be simplified into a single point (see red dot diagrams above).

The cusco brace is meant to tie together 4 points and prevent fore/aft as well as left/right flexing which is illegal.
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Old 11-19-2008, 09:46 AM   #19
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The triangulated strut bars that connect to a firewall were already illegal. Their intent was to make the typical strut bar illegal because it provides rigidity in more than one axis, just like the cusco bar does. They rescinded it because that made pretty much all of them illegal, which opens up an arguement that the cusco bar should be legal as well.

I'm not looking for any loopholes, just trying to get the most out of the rules. These simple parts should be legal in a class like SM where you can go nuts with engine/drivetrain swaps, expensive coilover setups, etc, etc. But god forbid you put a strut bar that mounts at both ends of your lower control arm. That's what's wrong with autocross today.
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Old 11-19-2008, 12:21 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eby View Post
I'm not looking for any loopholes, just trying to get the most out of the rules. These simple parts should be legal in a class like SM where you can go nuts with engine/drivetrain swaps, expensive coilover setups, etc, etc....
It's not a question of what should be legal. Do the rules state you can run a triangulated brace in ST* or SM? No they do not. The rules are clear. You're trying to read between the lines of the rules. There's no secret special set of rules underneath the actual written rules. There's no intent to be guessed at.
If it doesn't say you can: you can't.
If you want to run that brace go ahead, but please do not class yourself in ST* or SM.
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Old 11-19-2008, 12:56 PM   #21
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I'll probably be in FP next season either way because of other mods I'm going to do. I've previously been in SM(not with this brace) and I was just curious why everyone thought these things were illegal in SM when technically they mount inline with the left and right suspension mounts and nowhere else.
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Old 11-19-2008, 01:32 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eby View Post
they mount inline with the left and right suspension mounts
It's not where they mount that's the problem, it's how they're intertwined that's the issue. You can go front to back or side to side, not both.
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Old 11-19-2008, 06:49 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eby View Post
Just to throw out there for more discussion. With the Cusco Type II bar, would it be legal if you cut the cross bars that connect the forward and rear bar together. That way you'd have 1 forward bar that tied together the front LCA mounts and 1 rear bar that tied together the rear LCA mounts.
That was going to be my suggestion, but I'm not going to say for sure that it's legal. "suspension mounting point" is a bit vague. I think the reason no one has really tried is that it's a pretty low bang for buck mod in the grand scheme of things.
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Old 11-19-2008, 07:02 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ButtDyno View Post
That was going to be my suggestion, but I'm not going to say for sure that it's legal. "suspension mounting point" is a bit vague. I think the reason no one has really tried is that it's a pretty low bang for buck mod in the grand scheme of things.
I'd agree with ButtDyno. Cut the two fore/aft connecting bars and your legal for ST* or SM.
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Old 11-20-2008, 11:05 AM   #25
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<hijack>
Quote:
Each SFC must attach at no more than three points on the unibody (e.g. front, rear, and one point in between such as a seat mount brace or rocker box brace)
If an SFC mounts to the front subframe, seat brace, and rear subframe, that is 3 points. But what if it is a long SFC that is stitch welded along the subframes? Is each weld an attachment point?

Sorry for the hijack.
</hijack>
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