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Old 12-11-2008, 11:52 PM   #1
design1stcode2nd
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Default Big 3 Bailout fails in Senate

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/12/11/b...in-the-senate/

Quote:
...Ayes: 52
Nays: 35

Cloture was not invoked. The bill fails.

Reid acknowledges that this won't be revisited until the new Senate convenes next year. Asks the President to consider using TARP money.

Senators continue to speak on the floor, but this essentially signifies the the end of the bailout debate for calendar year 2008. And now we wait to see what happens.
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Old 12-12-2008, 12:18 AM   #2
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Old 12-12-2008, 12:40 AM   #3
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Tragedy
Irony.
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Old 12-12-2008, 01:48 AM   #4
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You guys in this rumors forum are incredibly ignorant.

Do you really think American economy will be able to handle one million job losses simultaneously?

Ford and GM have some good products on the horizon. I can't say the same from Chrysler.
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Old 12-12-2008, 01:50 AM   #5
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right about now im seriously thinking of trading in my year old cobalt ss for a 09 rex
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Old 12-12-2008, 02:07 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by atho6 View Post
You guys in this rumors forum are incredibly ignorant.

Do you really think American economy will be able to handle one million job losses simultaneously?

Ford and GM have some good products on the horizon. I can't say the same from Chrysler.
I live and work in Japan. The only effect this will have on me is the dollar will plummet, causing my yen to be worth a lot more when I go home and visit. My family back home are lawyers who specialize in Chapter 7, 11, and 13 bankruptcies. Business has picked up and they prosper. The bad economy isn't negative news for everybody. Speaking of ignorance....
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Old 12-12-2008, 02:19 AM   #7
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1,000,000 jobs won't be lost overnight. To think so is folly.

There will be a slow job loss related to the auto companies, but they will continue to operate and provide jobs. If they do fail, it will be a slow painful death. The lost jobs will be streached out over years, and most will be balanced by new jobs as the economy recovers, with or without American automakers.
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Old 12-12-2008, 02:42 AM   #8
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everyone should also keep in mind that ford will survive reguardless, so america will still have at least one automaker. there sitting on tons of cash and have said that they dont need a bailout but are just looking to get some extra money.

Chrysler and GM on the other hand are pretty much screwed
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Old 12-12-2008, 02:56 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by atho6 View Post
Do you really think American economy will be able to handle one million job losses simultaneously?
Considering it's already done so, yes.

You think the American economy has been able to handle domestic automakers paying forklift operators $102,000 when they should be making $24,000? Obviously not, and that's why it's all going down the tubes. UAW workers need to accept a 75% pay cut immediately instead of trying to steal from us hardworking taxpayers. The UAW offered to Congress: no pay cut at all until 2011? This is the planet that UAW has been living on. Hopefully this auto bailout business is bringing them out into the light for the world to see now.

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Originally Posted by Slo05 View Post
everyone should also keep in mind that ford will survive reguardless, so america will still have at least one automaker. there sitting on tons of cash and have said that they dont need a bailout but are just looking to get some extra money.
It's unfortunate that GM and Chrysler could bring down Ford also due to the union structures in place. Ford has mentioned that they deserve the same union concessions as GM And Chrysler even if they don't take the bailout money. But, since the UAW offered no pay cuts until 2011 that is a spit in the face of American taxpayers so I guess Ford doesn't have to worry about getting on board with their "concession" anyway!
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Old 12-12-2008, 03:04 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by snowcat View Post
Considering it's already done so, yes.

You think the American economy has been able to handle domestic automakers paying forklift operators $102,000 when they should be making $24,000? Obviously not, and that's why it's all going down the tubes. UAW workers need to accept a 75% pay cut immediately instead of trying to steal from us hardworking taxpayers. The UAW offered to Congress: no pay cut at all until 2011? This is the planet that UAW has been living on. Hopefully this auto bailout business is bringing them out into the light for the world to see now.

75%......... really. Its also not stealing. They are loans. Also who are you to say what they SHOULD be making.
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Old 12-12-2008, 03:06 AM   #11
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Ugh. As much as they may or may not have deserved these loans, this still scares the **** out of me that it didn't pass.
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Old 12-12-2008, 03:07 AM   #12
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personaly i believe GM need to file bankrupcy and get it over with, then either force the unions to renegotiate or just break the unions all together, something has to change, the 70-85hr they are getting is way more than they should get, something need to change, but on the upside gas is cheap, so if you dont have a job you can still drive around all day
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Old 12-12-2008, 03:15 AM   #13
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Ugh. As much as they may or may not have deserved these loans, this still scares the **** out of me that it didn't pass.
Take comfort in the idea that the failure of this bill proves we have at least a little democracy left in this country, though it appears to be quickly dwindling...
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Old 12-12-2008, 07:19 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tragedy View Post
I live and work in Japan. The only effect this will have on me is the dollar will plummet, causing my yen to be worth a lot more when I go home and visit. My family back home are lawyers who specialize in Chapter 7, 11, and 13 bankruptcies. Business has picked up and they prosper. The bad economy isn't negative news for everybody. Speaking of ignorance....
The entire global economy feels it when the US's economy takes a dive.

I highly doubt that GM/Ford/Chrysler will go under. Maybe their US operations will dwindle down to the minimum amount of vehicles. The big loosers will be all the suppliers and automakers (designers, factory workers, dealerships) of the collateral vehicles.

It's going to be a rollercoaster for many families in the US.

Nick
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Old 12-12-2008, 07:59 AM   #15
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go bankrupt and get rid of the UAW for good
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Old 12-12-2008, 07:59 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by atho6 View Post
You guys in this rumors forum are incredibly ignorant.

Do you really think American economy will be able to handle one million job losses simultaneously?
Are you so ignorant that you really think one million jobs are going to be lost simultaneously?
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Old 12-12-2008, 08:14 AM   #17
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go bankrupt and get rid of the UAW for good
^ +1
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Old 12-12-2008, 08:21 AM   #18
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Bring it,

I have been booked a week and a half out for the last 3 months.

Car sales are through the roof here.

This recession has been good to us.
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Old 12-12-2008, 08:22 AM   #19
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75%......... really. Its also not stealing. They are loans.
They are loans which in no way would be repaid (except by Ford). No amount of money will save these companies.. they need to fix things first with the capital that they still have... prove they can make a profit, then they can have all the loans they want.

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Also who are you to say what they SHOULD be making.
If they want 'our' money, then 'we' have a say.
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Old 12-12-2008, 08:30 AM   #20
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I could not be happier about the bailout failure. While, I can feel for some of the individuals and families involved, this has been going on for years and no one can say they are surprised. They road the gravy train for years and now the gravy has run out. It might not be entirely their fault that the cars did not sell, but they demanded so much of a business that cannot support it. Now they will finally see the reality that many of us face everyday. The company, management, lower workers and unions all live and die together. And if you can't come to a compromise than everyone will lose.

As far as this country, we will be absolutely fine. We have survived civil wars, world wars, un-popular wars, etc. Do not be surprised by the ingenuity and endurance of the American people. In some ways this correction will make us stronger because it will put things back into perspective and level everyone's expectation. This country has been heading towards this for a longtime - there is alot of entitlement in this country that built up during the boom years and now people will see that success and financial security are blessings and it takes hard work. There are an awful lot of people who took some easy roads, my guess is that after this correction - the roads for many will be alot tougher.
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Old 12-12-2008, 08:32 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snowcat View Post
Take comfort in the idea that the failure of this bill proves we have at least a little democracy left in this country, though it appears to be quickly dwindling...
A very good point.^^^



200 years ago 90ish % of the American work force was in some agricultural line of work and today that number is less then 1%. So are they all unemployed? Of course not, as an individual you retool, retrain, and get up off your butt and make something of yourself. This situation is much different I acknowledge but that isn't to say everyone of them is going to be out on the street. Some will make the most and others will sit until whatever money they have until it runs out. Personal choice and personal actions and the freedom & liberty to choose as such is why America still has hope. You just have to be ready for the circumstances from those choices made.
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Old 12-12-2008, 08:35 AM   #22
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How many times has the airline industry had to file for bankruptcy? I don't know if that is a good comparisons because the size of the two industries are so different.

It seems odd that a business would continue to pay their employees bloated salaries when the company is tanking. I understand the need for unions but at some point they must realize that their demands may be a bit extreme.

I don't know, I'm very on the fence on this issue. On one hand I'm sure the American auto industry needs a shake up and a shack down. But then on the other hand I'm really unsure as to how this will ripple through our countries economy.

There is no doubt that the high gas prices we experienced this year were the nails that closed the coffins up on the American auto industry. People that live in areas with no real need for a SUV's or trucks should have a different type of transportation. I know in America you are free to purchase what you want but come on at some point people have got to get off the whole SUV truck kick if all you do is drop off the kids and go get groceries.

Last edited by Chris_Lee; 12-12-2008 at 08:46 AM.
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Old 12-12-2008, 08:40 AM   #23
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GM is part to blame themselves for bad structure (too many damn brands), and ****ty cars. On the other end, you have the god awful UAW who are holding out until the last minute hoping they won't have to cut back anything and someone will step up in the white house. I applaud congress for standing up to the UAW. I just hope the big wigs in the white house don't give in. I think there are four possible outcomes to this situation.

1. The white house at the last second throws money to the automakers with no cut back on the UAW's part. This would save jobs, but would make the situation no better and delay the inevitable.

2. The UAW gives in in the 11th hour and a new bill is passed first of the new year. GM and Chrysler barely survive but get the money. Nobody knows what the future will bring at this point.

3. GM and Chrysler are forced to file Chapter 11. The only creditor that will loan them money is the government, but at least the UAW contracts will be gone and hopefully would be the end to the union stranglehold. Both companies restructure.

4. The government won't back credit for chapter 11, GM and Chrysler are forced to file for Chapter 7 and liquidate everything and vanish. Highly unlikely that they would come back at this point. If Ford survives the fallout, they would become the premier US automaker.

A buddy of mine used to work in tangent with the UAW (wasn't in the UAW) when he worked for a photographer and did some work in a GM plant. He got a union grievance working for the photographer when he moved a GM car about 4 feet forward to get a better shot. The union guys got pissed because that was their job. When he was in the GM plant, he went into an electrical panel in the waste area because he had a job to do and the union guys were too ***** and didn't want to be in there. Well, he got written up because only union workers were supposed to be in the panels. Ask any guy with first hand experience with the UAW. They are completely unneccesary and complete ********.

Last edited by smakdown61; 12-12-2008 at 08:55 AM.
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Old 12-12-2008, 08:51 AM   #24
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#2.2 Ftw.
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Old 12-12-2008, 08:52 AM   #25
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The failure of the bailout is actually the best path. Even if the bailout passed, they would end up in bankruptcy eventually. If the bailout had passed, this is likely what would have happened (IMO):

1. They would be solvent enough to make it to Feb/Mar of 09'

2. By then we would have a union-loving President and more union-loving democrats in congress.

3. Strings attached to an additional bailout in Feb/Mar 09' would not be to break up and renegotiate the ridiculous union contracts as the union-loving democrats would not allow this. Instead, the strings would be to produce greener vehicles.

4. Changes to produce more fuel efficient/greener vehicles does nothing and these companies keep siphoning off money.

5. They need more money in 3 months. Congress gives it to them.

6. repeat #5.

7. Eventually, the public gets tired of all these bail outs and puts pressure on congress. Congress gives in and GM/Chrysler (and maybe Ford) go into bankruptcy.

So, failure of the bailout probably just saved American taxpayers much more than the $15 billion and we end up at the same place.
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