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Old 12-22-2008, 04:44 PM   #1
Unabomber
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TGV Delete FAQ

The primary purpose of a TGV delete is to remove the divider bar and butterfly valve inside the TGV assembly to improve airflow to your engine.

HP gain is 12 HP. This figure is highly debated as different manufacturers use different dynos with different cars with different levels of mods.

What is the purpose of TGV Deletes? The are meant to reduce cold idle emissions. Nothing more, nothing less. Once your vehicle is warm, the butterfly valves open fully and remain that way.

Which manufacturer is best? This topic is highly debated with no real winner in terms of performance. There are several companies that offer the TGV delete service as well as purpose built units or Japanese models which are, in essence, hollow units.

Japanese model, what is that? TGV internal assemblies are only used for cold start emissions on US cars. Hence, the Japanese TGVs do not have the divider plate or butterfly vavles. Some models are one piece intake manifolds with longer runners that make up the TGV portion and other models are just like their US cousins with no internal plates or butterfly assemblies. Neither units have the associated TGV external motor controllers as well.

Which TGV Delete has the best gains? There is no irrefutable evidence that any TGV Delete option has better gains than another. The consensus, if there is one, is they are all within 5HP or less, gain wise, of each other.

Do TGV Deletes cause a CEL? Yes. By removing the TGV motors, it will throw quite a few CELs. The bad news with this, is the TGV CELs will throw your car into limp mode, meaning unlike some other CELs that you can still drive around with and have no fear, the TGV codes limit boost/RPM operation meaning they must be taken care of in order to drive your car for any reasonable distance.

How do I fix the TGV CEL? You have three methods:
1. Normally, you remove the TGV motors and the rod that holds the butterfly valves in place. You could leave the rod in place (sans butterfly valves) and reinstall the TGV motors. This would allow them to actuate normally making the system think everything is working correctly.
2. APS makes a block that you attach the TGV motors to, this allows them to actuate normally making the system think everything is working correctly. These are not sold separately though, but can occasionally be purchased in the Private For Sale Forum or on eBay.
3. Various engine management systems can remove the associated CELs.

Do I need to perform the CEL fix? Yes. The TGV CEL codes will throw your car into limp mode. This will limit boost/RPM seen by your vehicle. It will still drive, but it should only be driven a short distance with the TGV CEL. Meaning you can drive it across town or a few short trips, but by no means should you drive it as a daily driven car for weeks on end until you get the proper fix.

Are there any downsides to TGV Deletes? No. As long as you account for removing the associated TGV CELs, there are no known downsides to this mod. Depending on the user, some see a wandering idle on cold starts which isn't so much a downside as it's stated in case this should happen on your particular vehicle....it happens to some cars and not others, so you may or may not see this. Once the vehicle is warm, this goes away and most users report this for just the first few seconds of starting a cold car.

Is there anything to be careful about when buying TGV Deletes or using a TGV Delete service? WRX and STI TGVs are not interchangable, so you must state your year/model car with the Vendor to ensure you get the right kind as the JDM TGV varieties are complicated. For the US varieties:

2007+ STI are topfeed
2004-2006 STI are sidefeed
2002+ WRX are topfeed

Yes you can convert your car from top to sidefeed or vice versa, but unless you want the additional time/trouble/expense, it's best to get the right TGVs in the first place. Top or side feed refers to the injector type/seating surface as they are different as are the associated fuel rails. So you must use all the components of either type if swapping TGV styles.

Where do I buy a TGV Delete? For purchasing, support your NASIOC Vendors. You have four options for TGV Deletes though:
1. Do it yourself
2. Use a TGV Delete service
3. Purchase APS, Zerolift (formerly known as MAW or Motive Autowerks), IAG billet TGV Deletes
4. Use a Japanese intake manifold/TGV assembly

So which route should I choose? It depends on many factors, but they are highlighted below:

DIY: Can be done while your car is down or with an extra set. Deleting can be accomplished in one afternoon with the proper tools (air tools and carbide bits) or over the course of a week with less than proper tools (Dremel). This is definitely the cheapest way to go and as long as you take your time, the quality and flow can/will match the best porting service.

TGV Delete Service: Probably the easiest solution as you can either send yours in for porting or most places offer a core charge service where you obtain $XXX back when you send in your OEM units. Most offer commercial grade painting and/or thermal dispersant coating.

APS TGV Deletes: These are a very expensive option as they were manufactured with a purpose built CEL fix as well as designed to accommodate extra fuel injectors. So if you plan on extra injectors, these may be the route to take first. Otherwise, they are a rather poor choice mainly due to their internal fit and finish as they are not port matched to the engine block and create a restriction at that junction compared to DIY/TGV Delete Service models. So yes, you can/should port the APS units for best flow. These are now near impossible to find unless used due to the dealer network in the US collapsing.

Zerolift (formerly known as MAW or Motive Autowerks) TGV Deletes: These are composite TGVs that are readily available and appeal to those that would like a near zero heat soak option due to the composite's phenolic properties. On metal intake manifold cars, you'll need to run a separate ground wire from the manifold to the block, since there will no longer be an electrical ground through the TGV housings. Additionally, on some cars, the inner bolt holes on the intake manifold will need to be slotted to line up with TGV housing.

IAG TGV Deletes: These are billet aluminum TGV deletes.

Japanese: These can be used as well, but you have to do some research with a trusted vendor. The reason for this is you have to ensure that you have the right Japanese manifold for your vehicle due to JDM/USDM differences in injector type and throttle body type. Using these is fine, but you cannot use the TGV CEL fix #1 as detailed above with them as they have no rods to do this with.

Can I gut my TGVs myself? Yes. NASIOC instructions can be found here, here, and here.

If I gut my TGVs myself, how should I fill up the hole where the rods were? You can either have it welded up (probably the preferred method) or many have successfully used various bolts or epoxies to fill them up with great success.

If I gut my TGVs myself, should the inner surface be polished or have a slight texture? The easiest way is to use a light abrasive to smooth over your rough porting work to leave a slight textured finish. While the smooth vs. rough debate has and will wage for years to come with internet fluid dynamics specialists, it probably matters not but to say it's 100% easier just to leave a smooth, but textured finish.

What about external coatings for TGV Deletes? While thermal dispersants would be most beneficial, the benefits would be very hard to measure. But, for some this would be considered the “best” option. Most are happy enough to color match them with spray paint to their car’s color scheme or leave them unpainted. To paint them, simply clean them very well, tape off the top and bottom mating surfaces, and use a quality high temp spray paint.

How will leaving the rods in affect me vs fully ported options? The rods are actually quite large in diameter for what they do. You can grind them down in profile so that when they are in their open position they block less flow. Leaving them in untouched is an option as well. They do present a blockage in total flow, but it's impossible to say whether they would present a loss in HP on the dyno vs. the no bar options. In the perfect world, you'd remove them totally and fix the associated CEL through engine management or the APG TGV delete motor "cheater blocks" vs. leaving the rods in.

What about phenolic gaskets? These are plastic based gaskets that limit the thermal conductivity between the hot engine block and the TGV/Intake Manifold. As with external TGV thermal dispersant coatings, phenolic gaskets are the best to use, but their benefits are nigh impossible to measure on a dyno. Most users just consider these a “must have” and get them with little thought though. Some use OEM gaskets, some OEM and phenolic, some have reused OEM and/or phenolic gaskets….unlike some Subaru junctions, the TGV/motor junction isn’t particularly prone to leaking. This isn’t carte blanche to re-use gaskets akimbo, but re-using gaskets here isn’t a deal breaker like it can be in say the pre-turbo side of the house.

How hard is it to install TGV Deletes? Allow around six hours for install time. Professional installation, depending on your area, is around $400. This is one vehicle modification that is fairly complicated and should only be tackled by those with extensive Subaru experience.

How do I install TGV Deletes? Refer to the TGV Delete manufacturer's instructions. For those without instructions, below are links to some of the better known TGV Delete installation instructions:
Grimmspeed's Instructions
Scoobymods.com instructions
Scoobymods.com instructions on how to align the stock TGV rods or APS blocks can be found HERE.
Meatys DIY TGV Delete Guide

What are the TGV delete CEL codes I need to turn off?

2004 STI, the TGV codes are called "Tumble Generated Valve" codes and they are codes P1086-P1097
2005+ STI, the TGV codes are called "Intake Manifold Runner" codes and they are codes P2004-P2022
WRX/FXT, the TGV codes are P2004, P2005, P2008, P2011, P1086 though P1097, P2016, and P2021 Tumble generator valve and valve circuit codes.

This information is somewhat outdated for the later models though, so if you see something has changed with later models or other models, please post up.

There's a hose sticking of my driver's side TGV that I don't know where it goes....will my car explode and kill everyone within 500 miles? No, that's just a vent hose and goes to nothing, leave it alone.

Do I need engine management with a TGV Deletes? Actually no. Having TGV deletes on a stock ECU or aftermarket tune causes no issues. While it is always better to have a mod tuned for, this is one modification that could be performed with no future tuning if you so desire.

Should I reset my ECU after this mod? It is never a bad idea to perform an ECU reset after a mod. The traditional route is to disconnect the negative battery terminal, press the brake pedal for a few seconds to bleed the system of charge, and reattach. Some use the more advanced Vishnu Reset.

Editors Note

This post was created because I wasn't able to find a good TGV Deletes FAQ. I came up with the text based on LOTS of searching here. It was also created to be intentionally brand neutral so that it serves as a stepping stone for further research. Upon reading this you should have an idea of which TGV Delete best suits your needs. The manufacturer is up to you.

If you find an error in this FAQ, please PM me with factual details and I will update this post. Responses such as, "I have XXX's TGV Deletes and they are great!" or "XXX's TGV Deletes leaked after 1 month" are not appreciated here, that is what the Car Parts Review Forum is for.
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Last edited by Unabomber; 03-08-2014 at 12:26 PM.
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Old 12-22-2008, 04:44 PM   #2
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Reserved....I aint done.
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Old 12-22-2008, 04:45 PM   #3
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Great again!

P.S. Why are you banned but not?
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Old 12-22-2008, 05:47 PM   #4
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Great again!

P.S. Why are you banned but not?
you can't ask that.
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Old 12-22-2008, 05:50 PM   #5
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You may add:

JDM side feed deletes fit 05-06 LGT without modification. They also fit 04-06 STI but require enlarging two holes in the intake manifold on each side, unless 07-09 STI intake manifold is used.
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Old 12-22-2008, 06:06 PM   #6
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Thanks, but I'm not touching any fitment with a 10 ft pole. As soon as I do....the fitment questions will flood in. 'Preciate the thought, but I ruled that out quick.
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Old 12-22-2008, 06:06 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Unabomber View Post
How do I install TGV Deletes? Refer to the TGV Delete manufacturer's instructions. For those without instructions, below are links to some of the better known downpipe installation instructions:
Grimmspeed's Instructions
Scoobymods.com instructions
I think you meant TGV installation instructions, not downpipe. Great write up however!
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Old 12-22-2008, 08:46 PM   #8
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Thanks again for another FAQ
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Old 12-30-2008, 09:49 PM   #9
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nice i think i'm going to do this when i pull my engine for the overhaul and upgrades
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Old 01-03-2009, 09:52 AM   #10
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just did this mod and i was unaware of it going into limp mode before the CEL fix! Thanks! Awesome FAQ
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Old 01-03-2009, 09:57 AM   #11
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Add in something about the fact that simply removing the flappers themselves does next to nothing (ya gotta remove the cast in divider wall as well)

Also, may want to cover that leaving the rod in also causes some turbulance and leaves what is essentially a 1/4" flow disruption in the airpath, so leaving the rod in is not a great plan either.

Great FAQ otherwise But like you said, its not done.
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Old 01-03-2009, 11:31 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davenow View Post
Add in something about the fact that simply removing the flappers themselves does next to nothing (ya gotta remove the cast in divider wall as well)

Also, may want to cover that leaving the rod in also causes some turbulance and leaves what is essentially a 1/4" flow disruption in the airpath, so leaving the rod in is not a great plan either.

Great FAQ otherwise But like you said, its not done.
Or alternatively, you could mention that the rod can be contoured to limit turbulence. However, it's also been argued that turbulence is a good thing to have when introducing fuel into an air stream. It is supposed to supplement mixing.


Thanks for another great FAQ!
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Old 01-16-2009, 01:31 PM   #13
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i hate to be a total noob, but since this is the TGV Delete FAQ, could you spell out what TGV stands for?
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Old 01-16-2009, 02:03 PM   #14
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tumble generator valve
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Old 03-02-2009, 02:58 PM   #15
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Can you please add a few words about fitting the APS servo blocks? Maybe how you indexed/centered them on the gear, with maybe a photo and any things to look for?
Were you able to find that photo with the blocks installed with their brackets?
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Old 03-02-2009, 03:18 PM   #16
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I've only seen one photo of them installed and that was on the APS website which is now gone from there. It didn't help anyway as the passenger side one can only be mounted like they had it with an aftermarket intake. Nowhere I've seen has fitment instructions for them. I used to have them and let them hang all ghetto. As to gear fitment, that's on scoobymods.com under one of Peaty's posts as he busted the crap out of his OEM ones and his post talks about how to properly put the OEM ones on, which also works perfect for the APS ones. Let me search and add it for everyone, thanks.
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Old 03-02-2009, 03:56 PM   #17
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I think I found the photo!!!!
Is this the right one ?

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...o+installation
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Old 03-16-2009, 09:23 PM   #18
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so wait, does this mean that all topfeed subaru TGV's are compatible with each other ? I have an 09 Forester and was planning to get TGV topfeeds off one member
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Old 03-17-2009, 11:09 PM   #19
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On the placement of the TGV motors the way I did it was to make sure the butterflies are closed all the way, remove the bolts from the drive motors, hold the butterflies so the dont snap open when you remove the motors, pul the motors off then remove the sensors, when you put the mtotrs back on just set the rod straight reinstall the motors the the sensors, as I read the instructions Unabomber was so nice to set a link for you set the sensors with the plug in facing 12:00 line the sensor up on the rod then twist it 90 clockwise untill the bolts line up, bolt it down and your good to go. Also i would make sure you mark left and right sides on the motors just incase. Wnated to add something real quick, when reinstalling your empty shafts in to the housings be careful not to knock them in too deep, the bearing will bind up on the spring mount below the drive gear, if this happens it is a bit of a bugger to pull the bearing back down in place (ya I did it ) any how good luck to you all on this mod and remeber take your time!!

Last edited by fordfabwiz; 03-19-2009 at 12:48 AM.
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Old 03-18-2009, 12:10 AM   #20
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Well, APS were nice enough to help me, following a call I made to Australia.
They may or may not want me to post a scan here, so I'll describe in words.

As far as placement of the servo adapters:

Unlike the photo that I've found, these are ment to be installed vertically, using the brackets.
The passenger side adapter stands vertical, with its wide side paralel, above the coil packs. The bracket holds it by two screws and is fastened through the bracket screw of the power steering line.
In other words: the powersteering line passes under the side of the coolant tank. it is held to the side of the head, by a bracket with a screw. take the screw out, put it through the TGV servo plate bracket and fasten it back into position.
On this side, the sensor will be towads the fender and the motor will be towards the intake manifold.

On the driver's side, the bracket goes above the dipstick support bracket. Take the screw out, then put the TGV bracket in.
The TGV adapter goes paralel above the coilpacks with the motor towards the fender and the sensor towards the manifold.

There is an advice note to untape the wiring loom, to be able to extend the wiring for sensors/motors.
Installation is:
You rotate the gear of the adaptor clockwise till it hits the stop.
Then fit the motor.
Then you slide the sensor into the adaptor shaft, so that you can then rotate it clockwise 90 degrees, till the cable connector is facing upwards, then fasten that in place.
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Old 03-26-2009, 08:45 PM   #21
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The green brackets of death fit over the APS TGV Deletes.

Also, the positions that APS selected for the servo coupling brackets were not possible, cannot be used.
Next, I wanted to attach the couplings to the intake manifold, to keep everything as an assembly. As soon as I went back to install the manifold, this was not possible.
So, in the end, I used one of the two brackets without modifying it and the other after I modified it big times.




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Old 04-23-2009, 02:16 PM   #22
bibs
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i left the rod and motor in the tgv and gutted the divider. unfortunately its still throwing me a tgv CEL, what could be the reason for this ?
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Old 04-23-2009, 02:43 PM   #23
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Your sensor is borked or you forgot to pre-load it. Those are your two causes.
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Old 04-23-2009, 02:49 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unabomber View Post
Your sensor is borked or you forgot to pre-load it. Those are your two causes.

Spot on... I've fought this battle before, and nearly went crazy trying to figure out where I went wrong.

You may already know what he means by "pre-load," but if not, refer to post number three in the this thread:

http://www.scoobymods.com/forums/tgv...088-t5160.html

Good luck.
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Old 06-15-2009, 03:58 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unabomber View Post
TGV Delete FAQ


There's a hose sticking of my passenger side TGV that I don't know where it goes....will my car explode and kill everyone within 500 miles? No, that's just a vent hose and goes to nothing, leave it alone.
Unabomber I am in the mid of my TGV delete mods on my bugeye, I've notice a hose connecting to my "driver" side tgv motor and goes to nothing. Could it be that both side has a hose connectiong to TGV motor connect to nothing?
I didn't notice the passenger side side of TGV motor hose. I will have to check in the morning.
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