Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Tuesday October 21, 2014
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC General > Motorsports

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-04-2009, 12:34 AM   #1
pio!pio!
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 4190
Join Date: Feb 2001
Chapter/Region: BAIC
Location: San Jose, CA
Vehicle:
2008 Impreza WRX STi
Aspen White

Default My once long dream for American open wheel racing

Let me preface this by saying this is only fantasy..but was something I dreamed up a while ago in a haze of open wheel optimism.

Rewind a couple of years ago, Mazda put together a 'ladder of open wheel progression'.. theoretically you cut your teeth in Star Mazda, then went to Atlantics to get the wheat separated from the chaff, then the bright stars goto Champ Car.

At the point when Mazda stepped in to replace the Toyota motors in the Atlantic series, and they had a marketing relationship with Champ Car going on..I concocted a crazy notion in my head:
Mazda's signature is it's rotary engine, so why not take advantage of it.
At that stage, Star Mazda's put out ~250hp, while Atlantics churned out ~300hp..the next step up was Champ Car with a much higher level of performance (600hp? 700hp?). Similarly, downforce levels were disproportionate too. There was no smooth increase in power, downforce, and tire grip as you went up the ladder.

One day my brain decided to formulate a Mazda open wheel ladder
- Start at Star Mazda, give it a ~250-300hp 2-rotor engine
- Move to Atlantics, with a ~450hp 3-rotor engine and more downforce
- Finish with Champ cars, with a 650-700hp 4-rotor engine and the most downforce

It would seem a cool marketing gimmick with the engine getting an additional rotor with each jump in class....
the 2 rotor puts out 250hp easily in factory form, and a race version could do 300hp.
a race engine 3 rotor could do 450hp (what does the 3 rotor in the grand am rx8's put out? and the old 3 rotor in BK motorspots old LMP2 car?)
and a 4 rotor race engine could possibly put out 700hp (mazda's old lmp1 motor with increased revs...?)

plus the engine noise gets better with each increase in class culminating in that beautiful 4 rotor banshee scream.

of course my daydream never turned into anything but, however I still wish something like that could have happened.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
pio!pio! is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2009, 06:31 AM   #2
Storm
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 5218
Join Date: Mar 2001
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: SAUL'S Motorsports
Vehicle:
96L Most Over-
Developed Beater

Default

You must sell hearing aids for a living......


Jay
Storm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2009, 10:50 AM   #3
ptclaus98
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 87888
Join Date: May 2005
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Chattanooga, TN
Vehicle:
1988 Toyota Supra
Boredom Personified

Default

Aren't rotaries more unreliable and more expensive?
ptclaus98 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2009, 11:24 AM   #4
cooleyjb
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 55727
Join Date: Feb 2004
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: North Carolina
Vehicle:
#533 Spec Racer Ford

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ptclaus98 View Post
Aren't rotaries more unreliable and more expensive?
In formula mazda and pro mazda they last forever compared to most other open wheel cars.

As for the old Mazda LMP motors. That's a different story. I wouldn't touch any of them. BK Motorsports would have won races if it wasn't for the horrible engine luck they had.
cooleyjb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2009, 12:34 PM   #5
blue blurr
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 51111
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: eating nastysocks
Default

Th "ladder" starts a little earlier then that. Say SCCA club racing in a FE and then SKip Barber National where the champ gets a free season in Star mazda. Or, you can start in Star and pay 500k/season.
blue blurr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2009, 09:17 PM   #6
DJSuperSoul
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 120004
Join Date: Jul 2006
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: beavertron
Vehicle:
2xx8 STI
grey

Default

if you are really really good, this graduated ladder makes no difference. you are fast, you figure it out, and move up. the hardest step is the last one...
DJSuperSoul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2009, 09:21 PM   #7
jshim
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 103944
Join Date: Dec 2005
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: NoVA
Default

-star mazdas currently and have been competing with the RX-8's 2 rotor engine, making 240hp

-i think a 3 rotor in the formula atlantics would be very heavy and cannot relate to Mazda's marketing platform as they currently offer no 3 rotor...but the same engine that is in the atlantics (MZR i-4) is also offered in many of their street vehicles

-with champ cars (now defunkt), they already had an exclusive relationship with panoz as the chassis constructor and i think Ford/cosworth as the engine supplier. 4 rotor, with it's very hefty weight, would not make sense in a formula car like champ car. and seeing how Honda is IRL's official engine supplier, i don't see them using rotaries anytime soon.

-yup, speed source in Grand-Am cup runs 3 rotors which make 450bhp. but in terms of marketing platform, as long as the silhouette stays the same, it works for Mazda marketing. since mazda doesn't make a tube frame rx-8 (chassis' are made by Riley in NC), it's ok to run a purpose 3-rotor engine.

-BK motorsports did not run rotaries... in fact, they ran the same MZR 4 cylinder that they run in Playboy mx-5 cup miatas or the Mazda6 touring cars (save for the fact the LMP2 motors were turbocharged and made 500hp). but the truth is, BK was unsuccessful in their venture and their LMP2 never performed against the likes of Dyson or Penske...which is why BK shutdown operations and Mazda switched the LMP2 program to Dyson (also with the fact that Dyson changed their game plan since Porsche dropped the spyder for this year)


here's an article talking about the various platforms Mazda has run the versatile MZR engine in (the article is wrong about Star Mazda, as again, they run the rx-8 13B genesis): http://blogs.edmunds.com/roadtests/2...ng-engine.html
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJSuperSoul View Post
if you are really really good, this graduated ladder makes no difference. you are fast, you figure it out, and move up. the hardest step is the last one...
hahaha, very naive outlook on things...

it doesn't matter how much talent you have or how "really really good" you are in racing, if you don't have the funds, you don't go racing.

and the politics behind the scenes is so frustrating for many of these racers that many of them truly are battling against kids with richer parents.

the ladder system is excellent that Mazda provides. the formula ladder is great and so is the sports car ladder. guys like Rafael Matos or Jason Saini wouldn't even be at the level they are without the help of Mazda's awesome ladder program.

Last edited by jshim; 08-04-2009 at 09:29 PM.
jshim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2009, 09:30 PM   #8
cooleyjb
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 55727
Join Date: Feb 2004
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: North Carolina
Vehicle:
#533 Spec Racer Ford

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DJSuperSoul View Post
if you are really really good at signing checks, this graduated ladder makes no difference. you are good for the money, you figure it out, and move up. the hardest step is when you run out of money
fixed that for you.
cooleyjb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2009, 09:37 PM   #9
jshim
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 103944
Join Date: Dec 2005
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: NoVA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cooleyjb View Post
fixed that for you.
bingo.
jshim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2009, 01:06 AM   #10
pio!pio!
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 4190
Join Date: Feb 2001
Chapter/Region: BAIC
Location: San Jose, CA
Vehicle:
2008 Impreza WRX STi
Aspen White

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jshim View Post
-BK motorsports did not run rotaries... in fact, they ran the same MZR 4 cylinder that they run in Playboy mx-5 cup miatas or the Mazda6 touring cars (save for the fact the LMP2 motors were turbocharged and made 500hp). but the truth is, BK was unsuccessful in their venture and their LMP2 never performed against the likes of Dyson or Penske...which is why BK shutdown operations and Mazda switched the LMP2 program to Dyson (also with the fact that Dyson changed their game plan since Porsche dropped the spyder for this year)
BK ran the 3 rotor unsuccessfully for at least a season intially..it was underpowered and generated too much heat...but it sounded awesome..i remember hearing it at laguna seca....
they did switch over to the AER/Mazda 4 banger but I miss that sound.

I would give anything to hear a 4 rotor on a racetrack in anger in person....
just listening to it as a video gives me the chills like a ferrari v12 does
pio!pio! is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2009, 02:26 AM   #11
jshim
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 103944
Join Date: Dec 2005
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: NoVA
Default

i stand corrected... and yes, hearing a 4 rotor, like the 787B on track at WOT would be a treat to the ears.
jshim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2009, 09:29 AM   #12
ptclaus98
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 87888
Join Date: May 2005
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Chattanooga, TN
Vehicle:
1988 Toyota Supra
Boredom Personified

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DJSuperSoul View Post
if you are really really good, this graduated ladder makes no difference. you are fast, you figure it out, and move up. the hardest step is the last one...
Actually, the first step is the hardest one, cause that's where you get noticed.
ptclaus98 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2009, 10:03 AM   #13
racerjon1
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 43612
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Columbia, SC
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ptclaus98 View Post
Actually, the first step is the hardest one, cause that's where you get noticed.
Writing big checks gets you noticed, don't kid yourself.


The "hardest" step is the check you can't afford to write. Doesn't matter where in the "ladder" it is.



Jon
racerjon1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2009, 10:27 AM   #14
ptclaus98
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 87888
Join Date: May 2005
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Chattanooga, TN
Vehicle:
1988 Toyota Supra
Boredom Personified

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by racerjon1 View Post
Writing big checks gets you noticed, don't kid yourself.


The "hardest" step is the check you can't afford to write. Doesn't matter where in the "ladder" it is.



Jon
Meanie. Have to come in here with all your "facts" and "experience". Why I oughta...








ptclaus98 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2009, 11:13 AM   #15
Snowphun
NASIOC Supporter
 
Member#: 1800
Join Date: Jul 2000
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Way South Shore MA
Vehicle:
WRX /Cooper S/Miata
awd/fwd/rwd

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pio!pio! View Post
Mazda's signature is it's rotary engine, so why not take advantage of it.
That's a pretty poor signature IMO. It's in one car, gets awful gas mileage at a time when people actually care about that and it scares most people due to it's reliability (regardless if it is unfounded). I'm amazed they keep making this engine, it doesn't bring enough to the table and Mazda has some other engines that are as nice as the competetion.
Snowphun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2009, 04:13 PM   #16
chkltcow
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 10814
Join Date: Oct 2001
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Stanley, NC
Vehicle:
'13 ToyobaruFRZ-86
97 Miata M

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowphun View Post
That's a pretty poor signature IMO. It's in one car, gets awful gas mileage at a time when people actually care about that and it scares most people due to it's reliability (regardless if it is unfounded). I'm amazed they keep making this engine, it doesn't bring enough to the table and Mazda has some other engines that are as nice as the competetion.
Whether you like it or not, it's still Mazda's unique and identifiable engine. When you think of a V12, you probably think of Ferrari. Flat 6... that's Porsche. Flat 4... Subaru or VW if you're one of the old bug guys. V8... American muscle.. GM or Ford.

When you think rotary, Mazda immediately comes to mind.
chkltcow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2009, 04:25 PM   #17
cooleyjb
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 55727
Join Date: Feb 2004
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: North Carolina
Vehicle:
#533 Spec Racer Ford

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by chkltcow View Post
Whether you like it or not, it's still Mazda's unique and identifiable engine. When you think of a V12, you probably think of Ferrari. Flat 6... that's Porsche. Flat 4... Subaru or VW if you're one of the old bug guys. V8... American muscle.. GM or Ford.

When you think rotary, Mazda immediately comes to mind.
When I think Rotary, Mazda does come to mind. You are correct.

However when I think Mazda racing. I think Miata. Grassroots racing. etc. Rotary is about 15th on the list when I think of Mazda racing.
cooleyjb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2009, 09:25 AM   #18
racerjon1
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 43612
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Columbia, SC
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ptclaus98 View Post
Meanie. Have to come in here with all your "facts" and "experience". Why I oughta...


I know, I know...

I can be like the anti-racing Santa Claus...



How about a constructive ladder:

Elementary School (Study like hell)
Middle School (Study like hell)
High School (Study like hell, lots of other activities, join the debate team)
College... be a history major or something.
LSAT
Law School
10 years of charging lots of $ for all your hard work.
Formula Atlantic
Indy Cars


On Topic:
Racing is expensive, the reason you don't want to see things like three and four rotors on development series is that it raises the cost of entry, which is the biggest enemy to newcomers.

You can have different levels of HP for the 2-rotor.. 180, 250, 500 if you put a turbo on it.. all for esentially the same engine so you keep your initial costs down.


Proof: Spec Miata is hugly popular because you CAN get in to the series for $7,500 (or maybe less) sure you may need to have $25,000+ to have a competitive car, but you can get there for less.

Formula Ford 2000 - Zetec - might actually be a cheaper car to run, but because the low-end cost of a car is $32,000 a LOT less people are able to get there.

More people -> more attention -> even more people -> better chance for drivers to showcase tallent.


The Indy 500 is experienceing the same problem. The cost of a Honda Engine Lease for the month of May is $250 - $500k (depending on short or long program) The cost of a car is about the same depending on new/used, but because the rules are stagnate, there are no used cars being sold, or very few.

at different points in history (even as late as the early 2000s) a Team could put together an Indy-Only effort for as little as $125,000, get a driver who carries his testicals around in a wheelbarrel to drive, put the car in the field, win $150,000 for last place, make cash - who cares if you have a chance to win or not.

Now.. when it costs $500,000 to do the month it doesn't happen and we sit around wondering where cars are.

The same issue would happen on the lower levels if ease of participation wasn't given at least some thought.. so don't expect semi-exotic series ladders, no matter how cool the setup.


Jon K
racerjon1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2009, 09:49 AM   #19
ptclaus98
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 87888
Join Date: May 2005
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Chattanooga, TN
Vehicle:
1988 Toyota Supra
Boredom Personified

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by racerjon1 View Post
I know, I know...

I can be like the anti-racing Santa Claus...


"If you're a good little boy, I'll let you drive Monaco"




"If you're a bad little boy, you're riding a sidecar in the Isle of Man TT"


"Well that's not so b-"

"With Milka Duno as the driver."


:runs, becomes an accountant:
ptclaus98 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2009, 09:58 AM   #20
racerjon1
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 43612
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Columbia, SC
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ptclaus98 View Post


"If you're a good little boy, I'll let you drive Monaco"




"If you're a bad little boy, you're riding a sidecar in the Isle of Man TT"


"Well that's not so b-"

"With Milka Duno as the driver."


:runs, becomes an accountant:

That's going to make me laugh a few times today.
racerjon1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2009, 10:39 AM   #21
chkltcow
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 10814
Join Date: Oct 2001
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Stanley, NC
Vehicle:
'13 ToyobaruFRZ-86
97 Miata M

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by racerjon1 View Post
How about a constructive ladder:
How about another constructive ladder to describe certain drivers in.... that OTHER open wheel series

Elementary School
Middle School
Rich and famous daddy
Karting
Formula 3
GP2
Formula 1
Get fired
Daddy buys new team


The last one is still speculation, but I can see it happening
chkltcow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2009, 08:54 PM   #22
jshim
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 103944
Join Date: Dec 2005
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: NoVA
Default

LOL at the milka duno joke. That is classic!

Oh, and I believe Robin Miller commented that last place in the 500 only gets $90k...
jshim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2009, 09:12 PM   #23
ptclaus98
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 87888
Join Date: May 2005
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Chattanooga, TN
Vehicle:
1988 Toyota Supra
Boredom Personified

Default

Ok, jokes aside, my dream for AOWR=Superleague Formula. I'm serious when I say that's the best racing in the world right now. They're passing like mad on tracks that were supposedly impossible to pass on, and they're doing it in cars that are bigger than anything in Europe. I mean even Zolder had a good bit of passing! Add slicks and V12s, and there's nothing like it right now, and that's a shame. These guys could go to Sonoma or Laguna Seca and easily put on the best show of the year.
ptclaus98 is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Open Wheel Racing anyone?? FF 1600 jdmstuff SWIC Private Classifieds 6 07-19-2007 03:23 PM
WTT Central, NY : My Rota Tarmac IIs for '06 WRX wheels or '04+ STI silver wheels getek20 Tri-State Area Private Classifieds 11 03-17-2007 09:38 PM
WTT: MY HKS Carbon TI for YOUR Invidia N1 race andl2ew Private 'Wanted' Classifieds 5 02-06-2006 11:03 PM
Big Bend Open Wheel Race. (BBOW) Nagel Texas Impreza Club Forum -- TXIC 11 09-28-2005 03:06 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:19 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2014 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2014, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.