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Old 10-10-2009, 08:23 AM   #1
AVANTI R5
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Default 'Cool' car rules could affect radios, phones

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Washington -- California's latest requirement for the auto industry -- advanced window glazing to keep vehicles cooler -- could prevent drivers from making phone calls, listening to satellite radio or using garage door openers.

It also could lead Chrysler Group LLC to stop selling its soft-top convertible Jeep Wrangler in the Golden State. The standard for sunroofs is so tough that automakers warn the glass would have to be "effectively black."

The California Air Resources Board has adopted a new "Cool Cars" regulation ordering advanced glazing of windows to block the sun's heat and reduce the need for air conditioning. Windows must be coated with microscopic specks of metal oxide to reflect sunlight.

Advocates say the requirements will reduce the temperature inside vehicles, saving gasoline and cutting greenhouse gases.

The regulations take effect in 2012, with a three-year phase-in and requires that by 2014 all vehicles prevent 45 percent of the energy from the sun from entering a vehicle and 60 percent by 2016.The regulation applies to all new vehicles weighing 10,000 pounds or less.The board will review the second phase of the regulation next summer. By the end of this month, the board plans to publish its completed regulation. The public gets 15 days to comment with the final package to be completed by May 2010.

Some companies worry that the new requirements haven't been fully tested. In a Sept. 22 letter, Garmin International Inc., the California Manufacturers and Technology Association and the International Bridge, Tunnel & Turnpike Association warned that "more time was needed to assess the impact" of the rules.

They noted that "ankle bracelets for parolees," along with cell phone calls and laptops, "may be adversely affected by the metallic reflective standard" because the signals "must be able to penetrate the glazing in vehicles."

Garmin's initial testing said the signals from GPS devices were degraded.

Major automakers, led by the Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers and Association of International Automobile Manufacturers, argued for a different standard that would "absorb" rather than "reflect" energy and wouldn't risk wireless signals.

"It achieves about 85 percent of the benefit at about 10 percent of the cost, and it doesn't have any of the complications of reflective glazings," said the alliance's Steve Douglas. He said the standard would lead to "more dropped calls." Sunroofs would have to be "effectively black. So there's no light coming through that."

Honda said the new requirement "is simply not feasible" on the current timetable. Toyota Motor Corp. used similar reflective glass in Japan from 1989-94, before dropping it because of problems with radio wave devices.

Chrysler Group LLC has sought an exemption for vehicles' plastic windows, warning it could affect its GEM Electric vehicle and Jeep Wrangler.

The irony is the GEM electric vehicles don't even offer air conditioning, Chrysler said.

"The very popular Jeep Wrangler fitted with a soft convertible top uses flexible roll-up side windows which are not capable of meeting the side window standard," Ross Good, Chrysler's senior manager of government relations told the board. "Outlawing the soft top would require us to use the hard-top vehicle with the hard windows, which would add significant weight to the vehicle."

The initial standard will cost $111 over the life of a vehicle; the 2016 standard will add $250 to the cost of each vehicle. California says it will take five to 12 years for consumers to recoup the costs from reduced gasoline use.

Air conditioning burns more gasoline and contributes to greenhouse gas emissions. California says its regulation will save 700,000 metric tons of carbon dioxide by 2020, which is equivalent to taking 140,000 cars off the road for a year.

The new rule has other benefits, California says. It will keep cars 13 degrees cooler and reduce fading of upholstery and cracking of the dashboard. "This is a common sense and cost-effective measure that will help cool the cars we drive and fight global warning," said Mary Nichols, chairwoman of the California Air Resources Board.

The board has acknowledged that the reflective coating on windows can hinder communications, but said antennas are "an alternative already abundantly used."
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Old 10-10-2009, 12:44 PM   #2
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**** you California...
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Old 10-10-2009, 12:51 PM   #3
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sounds like whining from suppliers. where there's a will there's a way, but in this case they feel that it's cheaper to put out whiny press releases instead and hope that the regulation gets changed.

if they don't like the rule then they can forgo the california market, the size of many european countries.

Quote:
The new rule has other benefits, California says. It will keep cars 13 degrees cooler and reduce fading of upholstery and cracking of the dashboard. "This is a common sense and cost-effective measure that will help cool the cars we drive and fight global warning," said Mary Nichols, chairwoman of the California Air Resources Board.
yep.
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Old 10-10-2009, 01:25 PM   #4
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The irony is the GEM electric vehicles don't even offer air conditioning, Chrysler said.
They are just golf carts, how are they effected by this.
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Old 10-10-2009, 01:56 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Tim-H View Post
They are just golf carts, how are they effected by this.
AFFECTED.

There will be a slowing effect on solar heating of the interior.
They will be affected by being required to have reflective glass.

I don't think the regulation distinguishes between NEV and highway-capable vehicles.
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Old 10-10-2009, 02:01 PM   #6
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And how does regular tint not help with heat?
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Old 10-10-2009, 02:08 PM   #7
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Good theory, but again the execution of it screws everything.

Thanks for ruining automotive fun again law makers.

Then again, if this goes into effect country wide there might be less drivers talking on their phone when they should be watching the road.
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Old 10-10-2009, 02:27 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Weasel Soup View Post
Good theory, but again the execution of it screws everything.

Thanks for ruining automotive fun again law makers.

Then again, if this goes into effect country wide there might be less drivers talking on their phone when they should be watching the road.
There's no reason passive antennas can't work in cars just like they did 10 years ago when analog cellphones were weak.
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Old 10-10-2009, 02:46 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Beaverboy View Post
There's no reason passive antennas can't work in cars just like they did 10 years ago when analog cellphones were weak.
Actually, modern phones will perform worse than the old analog units. The old "brick" cell phones broadcast at 3W. The newer digital units broadcast at .6w. The reason why the signal is clearer is because the cell phone uses a digital signal, and is far smarter about choosing a clear frequency that the old analog stuff. You can get boosters that will boost the signal of your cell phone to 3W which is the max a cellphone can broadcast at, according to the FCC, I think.
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Old 10-10-2009, 02:54 PM   #10
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And how does regular tint not help with heat?
Regular tint absorbs infrared, heating up the glass and causing it to re-radiate heat out both sides, so half the IR blocked still goes into the interior as heat. And there is a limit of how much visible light can be blocked on the windshield.

Using a reflective coating, the amount of reduction of heat entry is much higher, even on the windshield.
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Old 10-10-2009, 03:03 PM   #11
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I don't think the regulation distinguishes between NEV and highway-capable vehicles.
It should, obviously they don't follow the same safety requirements. Like I said above its bsacically just a golf cart.
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Old 10-10-2009, 04:53 PM   #12
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A8's with the warm weather package for example already have all metal-coated glass.
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Old 10-10-2009, 04:59 PM   #13
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I feel for the people of california or "Kalli4nia" as the govenator says it.

I dont know how anyone could put up with the taxes and laws they have thier, plus it seems like they are getting tougher every month! Pretty soon all that will be allowed on the roads will be hybrids, or golf cart style electric cars.
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Old 10-10-2009, 05:23 PM   #14
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What bunch of FU#%ING retards we have making rules and laws... * * EXHALE * *
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Old 10-10-2009, 05:38 PM   #15
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I certainly hope that they do it nationwide so my car is cooler when I get in during the summer. It is actually quite easy to do and it is also incredibly easy to make it so that cell phones and other gadgets work. In fact it is already dealt with for the luxury cars that have the feature.
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Old 10-10-2009, 06:27 PM   #16
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And how does regular tint not help with heat?
Well it's mostly illegal in California so it's moot.
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Old 10-10-2009, 06:27 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by johnbono View Post
Actually, modern phones will perform worse than the old analog units. The old "brick" cell phones broadcast at 3W. The newer digital units broadcast at .6w. The reason why the signal is clearer is because the cell phone uses a digital signal, and is far smarter about choosing a clear frequency that the old analog stuff. You can get boosters that will boost the signal of your cell phone to 3W which is the max a cellphone can broadcast at, according to the FCC, I think.


Yeah. I know.

What does that have to do with passive antennas allowing the signal to pass through the car?

Nothing.
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Old 10-10-2009, 07:16 PM   #18
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Ok so this reflects the suns ray and your car doesn't get so hot inside. That is great, but there is no way the car is going to be cooler then it is outside, correct? Or am I missing something here?

So it's 80 outside and 80 in you car, I'm pretty sure the a/c will still be turned on. What is the point then? Until it starts to get into the low 70s I'm almost certain people will still be putting on their a/c. Even if they didn't turn it on they would open a window and gas mileage would fall. Plus when your in a car with the windows up your own body heat eventually will make you either turn on the a/c or open a window. Honestly just how much good is this law going to do.

Maybe because I'm from VA and it gets in the high 90s in the summer over here. Even if my car wasn't over heated from the sun, it's still hot as balls outside and I would still turn on the a/c.
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Old 10-10-2009, 07:27 PM   #19
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So it's 80 outside and 80 in you car, I'm pretty sure the a/c will still be turned on. What is the point then?
The point is that you need less energy to cool down the car.
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Old 10-10-2009, 07:31 PM   #20
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This may be a good idea. It will stop people from talking/texting on cellphone while driving. You will have to stop and go out to make a call.
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Old 10-10-2009, 07:42 PM   #21
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^^ I think people will just start demanding the passive antennas BeaverBoy brought into the discussion and the price of a new car will climb more.

Yay for my plans to keep the 07 until it is a classic. Or I die, which ever comes first.
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Old 10-10-2009, 08:05 PM   #22
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The point is that you need less energy to cool down the car.
ehh.

i leave on the ac just to remove humidity from the air. Even if the fan isn't blowing full speed, you're still putting the same drain on the engine to compress the refrigerant. winter time as well. I can't stand being in a humid car.

i really don't see this as making any impact...

oh and taking 10 years to payback 200 bucks, umm.... pointless.

It'd make more sense to outlaw black interiors then mandate that some stupid metal coating be put on windows.
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Old 10-10-2009, 08:33 PM   #23
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ehh.

i leave on the ac just to remove humidity from the air. Even if the fan isn't blowing full speed, you're still putting the same drain on the engine to compress the refrigerant. winter time as well. I can't stand being in a humid car.

i really don't see this as making any impact...
Of course it makes an impact because you can use a smaller compressor to get the same cooling effect.
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Old 10-11-2009, 12:18 AM   #24
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Of course it makes an impact because you can use a smaller compressor to get the same cooling effect.
False

They still need to provide the same amount of compressed refrigerant in order to cool down 100+ degree 85% humidity air to 65-70.

The only thing it would change is the amount of time that you could use the compressor, but NO ONE actually shuts off their AC when the temp goes low, because then you're blowing in hot air.

These law makers had their head in the right place, but just don't quite get it.
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Old 10-11-2009, 01:17 AM   #25
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The only thing it would change is the amount of time that you could use the compressor, but NO ONE actually shuts off their AC when the temp goes low, because then you're blowing in hot air.
A/C works on a duty cycle basis with a thermostat. It doesn't run the whole time you've got it turned on, so it only uses as much energy as it needs to cool the car to the desired temp.

The less heat that enters the cabin the less duty cycle the A/C compressor runs and therefore the less energy spent on extracting the heat.

I know you're talking about cooling fresh air, but you have to realize that the cool air from the A/C is displacing hot air in your cabin when you use the vent. The less hot air that exists in the cabin the less cool you need the air that's blowing in. If you were to actually measure your vents you'd see that they're blowing out 40-50 air in order for the temperature in the car to reach 65-70. The cabin will never be 40 inside just because the A/C is on because the sun is always adding more heat.

One of the biggest problems with cooling down a car is that it sits in the sun all day and every interior surface, as well as the air inside, gets to be 140 when you get out of work or the supermarket.. or your house. Now the A/C has to use it's 40 air to displace a massive amount of heat that could be partially avoided with minimal effort.


I don't get all the hate for this. Anti-tint laws are pure BS and this will make cars safer and nicer to drive at a minimal cost.

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