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Old 10-09-2009, 01:42 PM   #201
samo22
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yeah ewg set up will cost a lot and isn't necessary but would slightly help the spool up and slightly hold the power longer up top.
I hear good things about grimmspeed ebcs but personally I have prodrive one.
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Old 10-09-2009, 01:53 PM   #202
Chuck H
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Can anyone estimate the power curve differences between a 19T and a VF34 on a 2.0L WRX? I currently have a VF34 on my 03, along with STi pinks, a Helix TMIC, ported stock manifolds/crosspipe, Crucial uppipe, Maddad downpipe, and Borla Hush cat-back. I like the power that the setup makes, but miss the super-quick spool I used to have when I had the same exhaust with my stock TD04. If the 19T upgrade can give similar top-end power to the VF34, while getting back some of the low/mid range of the TD04, it seems like the perfect turbo for a 2.0L subie.

I still have my old stocker, and could send it in for the 19T treatment. If I decided to go that route, I'd probably go EWG at the same time, and possibly even equal length header.
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Old 10-10-2009, 05:47 PM   #203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck H View Post
Can anyone estimate the power curve differences between a 19T and a VF34 on a 2.0L WRX? I currently have a VF34 on my 03, along with STi pinks, a Helix TMIC, ported stock manifolds/crosspipe, Crucial uppipe, Maddad downpipe, and Borla Hush cat-back. I like the power that the setup makes, but miss the super-quick spool I used to have when I had the same exhaust with my stock TD04. If the 19T upgrade can give similar top-end power to the VF34, while getting back some of the low/mid range of the TD04, it seems like the perfect turbo for a 2.0L subie.

I still have my old stocker, and could send it in for the 19T treatment. If I decided to go that route, I'd probably go EWG at the same time, and possibly even equal length header.
My guess is that it will not worth it. Minimal low end gains for a noticeable loss in the upper end. You would probably do better to enhance the spool via porting manifold and turbo.
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Old 10-10-2009, 10:06 PM   #204
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I'll take the counter argument. If the charts in the early pages of this thread are any indication, the spool would be closer to stock spool than vf34 spool. It makes sense; that hotside will definitely spool up quickly, even with a 19t compressor.

The ewg should help your top end a good deal, and a good header can do nice things for the entire range compared to stock manifolds.
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Old 10-11-2009, 09:13 AM   #205
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For anyone who is interested, here are some pictures of my GrimmSpeed port and polished TD04-19T upgrade from Blouch:

Compressor inlet:

Compressor diffuser:

Turbine inlet:

Turbine outlet:

Turbine outlet close up:


Compare these with the pictures from posts #50, #169, #173 and you will see there is a significant amount of metal removed from each of the respective areas.
Blouch had also done porting on my turbo, but only on the turbine inlet, which GrimmSpeed went over again when they PnP'd the turbo.


The car (06 WRX) will have the following parts on it before the tune sometime in March:

STI intercooler and splitter
Avo inlet tube
MadDad V2 two piece catted downpipe and Whisper exhaust
GrimmSpeed 3 port EBCS- set up for interupt
GrimmSpeed PnP maniford and crossover
GrimmSpeed up pipe
Walboro 255 LPH fp

Stock injectors
Stock block

Last edited by konmann; 10-14-2009 at 02:52 AM. Reason: Added pictures, dotted my i's, and crossed my t's
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Old 10-12-2009, 12:42 PM   #206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jason miller View Post
I'll take the counter argument. If the charts in the early pages of this thread are any indication, the spool would be closer to stock spool than vf34 spool. It makes sense; that hotside will definitely spool up quickly, even with a 19t compressor.

The ewg should help your top end a good deal, and a good header can do nice things for the entire range compared to stock manifolds.
That's basically the way I was thinking as well. I have a paper dyno sheet comparing my TD04 tune vs. my VF34 tune, and the TD04 made tons more power below 4000 RPM. The VF34 seems to spool almost exactly 500 RPM slower, but that translates to 50 less ft-lbs at 3000 RPM, 60 less ft-lb at 3500 RPM, and then the VF34 finally catches up at 4000 RPM, when the TD04 torque curve had basically gone flat since 3500 RPM. The VF34 ends up making 25 more ft-lb at 4500, 30 more at 5000, and about 35 more from 5500up to redline. My TD04 tune made 227 hp max at about 4700 RPM, while the VF34 make 270 hp at about 6200. And honestly, I'd be willing to give up 20 hp in the last 1000-1500 RPM of the power range to gain 50 ft-lbs of torque in the mid-range and get that insta-spool feeling that the TD04 used to have after I got rid of the god-awful factory tune.

Plus, since my engine has well over 100,000 miles on it now, I'm not sure I want to always be winding it out to redline to get into the power band.
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Old 10-13-2009, 01:24 PM   #207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by konmann View Post
For anyone who is interested, here are some pictures of my GrimmSpeed port and polished TD04-19T upgrade from Blouch:


Reserved



The car (06 WRX) will have the following parts on it before the tune sometime in March:

STI intercooler and splitter
Avo inlet tube
MadDad V2 two piece catted downpipe and Whisper exhaust
GrimmSpeed 3 port EBCS- set up for interupt
GrimmSpeed PnP maniford and crossover
GrimmSpeed up pipe
Walboro 255 LPH fp

Stock injectors
Stock block

Dang... waiting until March for the tune

I'm really interested in this set up, as it sounds we've got a good idea of what a 2.0 will do with the td04-19t, but not the 2.5!

I'm looking to compare the 19t vs. a vf34 for my 2.5 turbo swapped forester
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Old 10-14-2009, 02:14 AM   #208
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By the way, here is an overlay of a TD04 19T compressor map on that of the TD04-13T:

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Old 10-14-2009, 11:26 PM   #209
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Damn this thread is making me anxious! Only 530 more miles to break in on my engine before I can get tuned
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Old 10-15-2009, 02:53 PM   #210
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soo what are the steps to making the stock td04 into the 19T blouch td04??
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Old 10-15-2009, 10:57 PM   #211
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Originally Posted by d0ugch0i View Post
soo what are the steps to making the stock td04 into the 19T blouch td04??
remove turbo from car. send turbo to blouch requesting the 19t tdo4 upgrade. reinstall *with supporting mods. tune. drive.
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Old 10-20-2009, 07:58 PM   #212
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cobb ap and opensource guys with 19t,
what ots map should i street whilst i await pro-tune or better.

e.g. stage 2, vf34, vf39.....valet mode?
let me know or else im goin valet mode =D
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Old 10-20-2009, 10:23 PM   #213
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Originally Posted by Sub2ner View Post
cobb ap and opensource guys with 19t,
what ots map should i street whilst i await pro-tune or better.

e.g. stage 2, vf34, vf39.....valet mode?
let me know or else im goin valet mode =D
If you upgraded injectors you really want some kind of a tune that accounts for the additional fuel going into the cylinders. Without that little bit your car will idle like crap and run excessively rich. Beyond that I'd run a map with target boost of zero and wastegate duty of zero to avoid getting high boost. You could still hit wastegate pressure if you really got on it, but I assume you're smart enough not to get into boost until it gets tuned properly.
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Old 10-28-2009, 12:46 AM   #214
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Bump for this thread. Any new info? With how fast guys are getting small 16G's to spool, i'm wondering if this crazy hybrid is really worth it....
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Old 10-28-2009, 12:56 AM   #215
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The Saab guys have been using the 19T compressor wheel as an upgrade for years. If you look at the compressor map, it's unbelievably wide! Great for lots of flow, with quick spool, even if peak efficiency suffers slightly.
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Old 10-28-2009, 01:44 AM   #216
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Oh i have no doubt that the compressor wheel can support good power. In fact, if I was just looking at the compressor alone, on an EJ205 with E85, I'd bet close to 300whp is attainable(dyno dependant).

However what i don't know of is any real world evidence of that power. (likely from such a small # of them out there) IIRC Saab turbo's used the TD04HL hotside, not the smaller TD04L which we have. I'm thinking in order to drive that compressor hard enough to flow that much air, you'd need an awful lot of EGBP. So I would agree with you that it's efficiency would less than ideal.

Ive been thinking, for ~600-700 new, a small 16G would give you identical performance up until the higher RPM's where I would expect the 16G to be better. Compare that to a full rebuild and 19T conversion on the TD04 which runs close to 600 I think. I would prefer whichever turbo could get me the most power on the least ignition advance.

This is mostly speculation without concrete proof, but the physiscs makes sense to me anyway. Hopefully we'll get more people posting here that have done the conversion.
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Old 10-28-2009, 04:23 PM   #217
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xsnapshot View Post
Oh i have no doubt that the compressor wheel can support good power. In fact, if I was just looking at the compressor alone, on an EJ205 with E85, I'd bet close to 300whp is attainable(dyno dependant).

However what i don't know of is any real world evidence of that power. (likely from such a small # of them out there) IIRC Saab turbo's used the TD04HL hotside, not the smaller TD04L which we have. I'm thinking in order to drive that compressor hard enough to flow that much air, you'd need an awful lot of EGBP. So I would agree with you that it's efficiency would less than ideal.

Ive been thinking, for ~600-700 new, a small 16G would give you identical performance up until the higher RPM's where I would expect the 16G to be better. Compare that to a full rebuild and 19T conversion on the TD04 which runs close to 600 I think. I would prefer whichever turbo could get me the most power on the least ignition advance.

This is mostly speculation without concrete proof, but the physiscs makes sense to me anyway. Hopefully we'll get more people posting here that have done the conversion.
Deadbolt was doing 18T(I think) upgrades with their Monster Ported TD04 several years ago. I know someone that made 270whp on that setup. All this stuff is pretty old news.

A small 16g on a 2.0 will not spool like the 19T wheel TD04. Whether the difference is significant on the low side is person dependant. Search through the 2.0 tech and proven power dyno sheets and you will see.
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Old 10-28-2009, 09:41 PM   #218
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllAWD View Post
Deadbolt was doing 18T(I think) upgrades with their Monster Ported TD04 several years ago. I know someone that made 270whp on that setup. All this stuff is pretty old news.

A small 16g on a 2.0 will not spool like the 19T wheel TD04. Whether the difference is significant on the low side is person dependant. Search through the 2.0 tech and proven power dyno sheets and you will see.
See what? There are almost no graphs of 19T's on here, or anywhere else i could find for that matter.

Here is a graph of a small 16G on 93 octane. http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1871506

Now compare that to the graph of the 19T on the first page of this thread.

Note they essentially reach peak torque at the same time. Also note that at 3000 RPM, even though the 19T "should" be out spooling the 16G, it doesn't matter because the 16G and 19T have identical torque values of ~165-170 ft-lbs @ 3kRPM.

Now dyno #'s are just that, #'s, and these are not the same dyno's, but the curve IS important. I would bet that the 16G makes equivalent or better power from 5K RPM to redline, with less EGBP, and less timing.

*I'm not a 16G fanboy, or a VF fanboy for that matter. I've just been doing a lot of research on turbo upgrades*
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Old 10-28-2009, 11:06 PM   #219
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Originally Posted by xsnapshot View Post
See what? There are almost no graphs of 19T's on here, or anywhere else i could find for that matter.

Here is a graph of a small 16G on 93 octane. http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1871506

Now compare that to the graph of the 19T on the first page of this thread.

Note they essentially reach peak torque at the same time. Also note that at 3000 RPM, even though the 19T "should" be out spooling the 16G, it doesn't matter because the 16G and 19T have identical torque values of ~165-170 ft-lbs @ 3kRPM.

Now dyno #'s are just that, #'s, and these are not the same dyno's, but the curve IS important. I would bet that the 16G makes equivalent or better power from 5K RPM to redline, with less EGBP, and less timing.

*I'm not a 16G fanboy, or a VF fanboy for that matter. I've just been doing a lot of research on turbo upgrades*
I think that chart is pretty exceptional because of the added mods on that car. Other 16g charts I remember seeing were 300-500 rpm slower. By 4000rpm it's all 16g dominated.

For the same price, I would go with a 16g. The 19T upgrade is listed as $325 plus shipping on Blouch's site and the 16g is $650. That's a pretty significant difference to me.
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Old 10-29-2009, 01:59 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by AllAWD View Post
I think that chart is pretty exceptional because of the added mods on that car. Other 16g charts I remember seeing were 300-500 rpm slower. By 4000rpm it's all 16g dominated.

For the same price, I would go with a 16g. The 19T upgrade is listed as $325 plus shipping on Blouch's site and the 16g is $650. That's a pretty significant difference to me.
Add on another 300 to have it rebuilt while your at it. I personally wouldn't upgrade to a larger compressor without rebuilding it (cause mine has 100k on it ). I would venture to say NOT rebuilding a high mileage TD04 is probably not wise.

And just to play devils advocate....(I'm currently on the fence about getting the 16G or the 19T next summer....)

EVOIII torque plateau by 4k.
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...light=16G+2.0L

small 16G online by 3600 RPM
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...light=16G+2.0L

18G online by 3800
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...light=16G+2.0L

small 16G by 3700 RPM
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...light=16G+2.0L
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Old 10-29-2009, 12:08 PM   #221
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xsnapshot View Post
Add on another 300 to have it rebuilt while your at it. I personally wouldn't upgrade to a larger compressor without rebuilding it (cause mine has 100k on it ). I would venture to say NOT rebuilding a high mileage TD04 is probably not wise.

And just to play devils advocate....(I'm currently on the fence about getting the 16G or the 19T next summer....)

EVOIII torque plateau by 4k.
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...light=16G+2.0L

small 16G online by 3600 RPM
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...light=16G+2.0L

18G online by 3800
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...light=16G+2.0L

small 16G by 3700 RPM
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...light=16G+2.0L
You might be right, but it serves to reason that a td04 turbine will spool up faster than a td05 simply due to mass. I'm not sure how or why Surfer Steve's dyno plot doesn't hit full boost until 3700rpm, but he did note that he's hitting 19-20psi by 2700rpm on the street. With my own car I usually see a 200-300rpm difference between the dyno and the street for full boost in 3rd gear. Perhaps the car was rolling at 2500rpm before they went to WOT. It would spool up quickly, but with a 2500rpm start its going to spool up a bit later than a comparable pull from a 1200 or 1500rpm start.

Just for comparison sake, the OP in link #4 states that he's hitting 21psi at 4000rpm. Those pulls are starting at 1500 or 1700rpm. Assuming he sees a similar 200-300rpm difference between dyno and street that's 21psi at 3700rpm. I would guess Surfer Steve's 2700rpm numbers are in 4th gear. If you add a couple hundred rpm for the reduced load in 3rd gear he's still hitting similar boost pressure 700rpm sooner and holding power out redline just as well.

I realize its a lot of speculation, but I think the 19T is a better buy for the money. If you have a good donor turbo and just get the upgrade it can't be beat for the price. If you need a full rebuild and then also get the porting and clipping you wind up at the cost of a 16g. Even then it should spool faster and produce similar power to a small 16g.
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Old 10-29-2009, 12:58 PM   #222
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I agree. The TD04 turbine should spool slightly faster. Keep in mind though that your trading surface area on the turbine blades, for less mass. The larger the surface area on the blades, the more energy the exhaust gas can impart on the blades to spool it up. So shedding weight is faster, but by how much? Its hard to tell.

My other main point here is that, while the OP in my link #4 doesn't see 21 psi until 4000 RPM, he is making the same power (or even a touch better) as surfer steve is on dyno at 3300 RPM. So similar boost pressure =/= similar power.

You could use the same argument for both cars, that on the street they would spool faster.

The start RPM of the pull could have an impact on spool, but since we don't know at what RPM both went full throttle (I.E. rolling onto the throttle), its tough to draw a conclusion from it. Also both COULD have started their pulls at 1500, but surfer steve might've just started the graph at 2500 since not much is going on below that anyway. Basically this factor is tough to compare between the two.

I agree on the $ factor. If you have a very low miles TD04, then a 19T is a great way to make more power for relatively cheap.
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Old 10-29-2009, 09:14 PM   #223
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Add on another 300 to have it rebuilt while your at it. I personally wouldn't upgrade to a larger compressor without rebuilding it (cause mine has 100k on it ). I would venture to say NOT rebuilding a high mileage TD04 is probably not wise.
There's your problem, why would you spend $300 to rebuild a turbo you can find used with low miles for <$100?

I bought my used TD04 for $40, it doesn't need a rebuild.

If you are going to pay the same for the 19T get the 16g or even just a cheap VF39/43.

Last edited by AllAWD; 10-29-2009 at 09:21 PM.
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Old 10-29-2009, 11:23 PM   #224
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There's your problem, why would you spend $300 to rebuild a turbo you can find used with low miles for <$100?

I bought my used TD04 for $40, it doesn't need a rebuild.

If you are going to pay the same for the 19T get the 16g or even just a cheap VF39/43.
That's rare that you fine one that cheap that doesnt need a rebuild. I got screwed over a couple months ago by purchasing a low mileage used TD04. It leaked just a bit of oil in the hotside. So now i have a cool looking paperweight. Suffice to say i don't have much trust in buying used parts.

If you can find one from someone you trust then go for it! I think turbo's will likely be one of those things i won't ever buy used again.
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Old 10-30-2009, 03:23 AM   #225
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From what I learned, before doing anything drastic to your donor TD04 Blouch guys disassemble it and check condition of the turbo.
Then they call you with the diagnosis and estimated total cost so you can decide if it makes sense to rebuild it.
If the turbo is DOA (~$600 to fix and upgrade) and you dont want to spend this much money they will send it back to you and you will be billed only for the shipping (~$30).
If your lucky the upgrade will cost you under $400 incl. shipping

What about the tune? Anybody has any experience tuning this thing?
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