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Old 10-15-2009, 08:42 PM   #1
JSarv
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Default Speed Density - OS 16bit Rom - Discuss Here

Alright guys I'm tired of getting PM's. So here is the thread.. Lets discuss and help each other out..

Here goes.

Purpose of thread is to discuss and learn about the Speed Density Rom for "CERTAIN" 16bit ecu's.
It is KNOWN to work on v7/v8 JDM ECU's and MY02 USDM ECU - THIS IS IT AT THE MOMENT. No others have been confirmed. If you don't see your year/ecu listed above please don't ask if it will work, I don't know - If you have tested it and it works PLEASE let people know.

I have a feeling this will work on all V7/V8 JDM Ecu's (STI and WRX) and MY02/03 USDM ECU's...

Please understand this rom is MUCH MUCH more complicated than your typical MAF based 16bit rom.

So lets start off -

1. Thank you to everyone involved in Romraider and ECU flash - Especially TeaCups (Merchgod) he has been the backbone of the OS community and I for one really really really appreciate his hard work, dedication, and helpfulness with nearly anything he can/can't explain!

Thank you!

Lets go -

Facts:
This is a Speed Density Style Rom - It does NOT use the Mass Airflow Sensor - but does use it as a reference for you (if you need it for a reference)

Speed density tuning (for fuel) is using Manifold Pressure vs. RPM vs. Intake air temperature to determine load and last but not least to determine final
Injector Pulse Width

Timing is Manifold Pressure based (not load based)

Knock correction exists and works but advance is very limited (4 cells total)

You will have a constant CEL with this rom (Well MY02 USDM ecu's will)

Idle is random (either 1000 rpms or what you set it at..)

Launch control and Anti-lag are an option but not switchable - they are either ON or OFF. No buttons or switches sorry.

Those of you wanting to run this, I hope you have good fuel and a very good sense of tuning as it is NOT easy to get things proper - simply this rom is NOT designed for our ECU's - It works but things are just more complicated.

Per Gear Boost/Wastegate control

More advanced fuel/ignition maps (more cells to tune)


- Here are some other facts.

The map sensor "offset" must be changed to suit your application:
01-05 JDM STI/WRX - -8.005
02+ USDM WRX/STI - -8.005
Late Model Year 2005+ JDM STI - -5.666 (This is what comes on the rom if you don't own a late 2005+ JDM STI or the map sensor off one THIS MUST BE CHANGED)

Front o2 Sensor scaling is improper for USDM applications. You have 2 choices - 1. Rescale for your stock roms o2 scaling 2. Move your front o2 Sensor to the Downpipe.

Knock control is disabled on the OE rom - In order for your to have knock control you must match your stock knock control settings. Very simple. NOW the rom comes with 0* of ignition advance, meaning if you have knock controlled enabled and working it WILL remove timing DURING the knock event but if IAM drops timing will NOT be removed (DANGEROUS). Scaling the advance map to a solid number (IE: 10) and removing 10* of timing everywhere will allow timing to be removed in the case of IAM drop - I have not tried this and don't care. I HAVE forced IAM drop and HAVE seen FBKC but have not seen any FLKC (my map is set up to have knock but my advance map is 0'd - I run E85... So this is not nearly as important to me)

IAT sensor must be scaled to match your stock rom.

Gear speed scaling must be changed to suit your current application.

Codes that need to be removed:
P0011
P0021
P0261
P0264
P0267
P0270
P0350
P0365
P0390
P1306
P1307
P1308
P1309

^^ These codes need to be removed when using a NON-JDM ecu..
You will still have a check engine light for P1307 and P1309. At this time **** happens.

IF you have a Utec you CAN run it with this rom but it must be disabled (from my understanding) or bypassed. Hopefully Todd (General) will jump in here and help the guys wanting to use Utec for FFS and LC with this.

Mode Byte - this determines the mode of the ecu - It is THOUGHT that the intercooler autowash button is what is used to change this when the proper car/ecu together. This is not available to us now.
The rom comes with a mode byte of 136 which to my understanding means LC/AL are active but Per Gear boost/wastegate compensation are not.

^ Do yourself a favor and set your mode byte to 0 - This is true antilag/LC once its on its on and the only way to turn it off when enabled is to engine brake below the GPN threshold. Otherwise once the rpms reach the threshold the car stays @ this rpm anti-lagging. Only turning the car off or engine braking it below the threshold turns it off - Not a cool thing really.

Set it to 0 and go on with life.

IF/WHEN the Mode Byte is set to 0 - GROUP N conditions ARE NOT MET - meaning you won't use the Group N fueling map. You will use Base Timing B (I have yet to see my base timing A map run)

Idle is wacky sometimes and likes to hover @ or around 1000 rpms no matter what you have it set to - Sometimes it will idle @ what you want it set to - this almost HAS to be Mode Byte related but is currently not known.

To prevent throttle lift knock - removing all negative timing in the idle timing maps is a must.

Per cylinder timing and fueling are @ 0 on this rom - Do what you feel is best, USDM WRX's use these compensations and it might be good/necessary for you to use these as well.

Alright I'm sure I've left some stuff out and its un-organized (I'm not Unabomber, so piss off! )

If you have questions please refrain from PMing me... My inbox was filled twice yesterday from dozens of PM's. Lets discuss it here.

Guys (Todd - Brocksdad - Bill - Anyone that has successfully used this - Please feel free to add your comments and experiences.)

Yes your car will idle/start/drive MUCH better! A cold air intake of your size is VERY recommended with this setup as this uses air temperature to determine fueling, a Hot air intake (such as mine that is being removed) will make tuning for weather conditions nearly impossibly due to cold weather heat soak and the such...

I will update as time goes on.



-Jerod
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Old 10-15-2009, 08:43 PM   #2
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Default

Some more basic info.

Use your old logs to determine what timing you should run @ what boost level. Remember this rom uses Manifold Absolute pressure rather than relative (actual boost). So if you have old logs, you must add atmospheric pressure to the boost level logged to determine absolute pressure.

Load is determined in this fashion:

Manifold Absolute Pressure*Multiplier (0.0764448) + Offset (-0.00683594)*Speed Density Load Compensation (RPMxPSIA)
RPMS have NOTHING to do with load other than your Load Compensation Map.. Get that Maf **** out of your head!
SD Load Comp map works like this: 0% = 100% VE. Or a SD Load Multiplier of 1.0. A SD Load Comp of 50% equals a SD Load Comp multiplier of 1.50 - Please see below.

Lets do a reference:
3000
30psiA (15.3psiG @ sea level)
@ 30psiA and 3000 rpms SD Load Compensation is a conservative 5%.

30*(0.0764448)+(-0.00683594)*1.05= 2.40 G/Rev

So @ 3000 rpms and 30psiA (15.3psi relative) you will have a load value of 2.40 G/Rev. This is theoretical...

Now IAT does play a role in the compensation so PLEASE don't leave it out it is VERY important to Speed Density. In the equation above we were assuming there was 0% IAT compensation.

Load has little impact on this map (other than Long Term Fuel Trims), knock control, and a few other minor things (that I don't use and don't care about! )

Also a forgotten note: This rom forces 100% Fuel Pump Duty Cycle. Its just an FYI.

Last edited by JSarv; 10-15-2009 at 09:06 PM.
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Old 10-15-2009, 08:43 PM   #3
JSarv
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Default

Untested (currently):
TGV functionality
Long term ECU Happiness/reliability
Smog (probably isn't going to happen boys and girls)


This rom is STILL limited to 24.3psiG or 39psiA. I've only seen 39psiA once (but ran much more boost..)

Last edited by JSarv; 10-15-2009 at 09:08 PM.
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Old 10-15-2009, 09:20 PM   #4
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My 5 bar map sensor broke so it looks like i'm stuck at 24 psi anyways

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Old 10-15-2009, 09:33 PM   #5
JSarv
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From my understanding the ecu won't read relative pressure above 24.7 - I COULD be wrong too (please correct me if I'm wrong)

24.5 Relative is the most I've ever logged (over 30psi was being run at the time)


-Jerod
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Old 10-15-2009, 10:05 PM   #6
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I had the same results. 24.3 is the magic number on my logs (not this ROM though). Thanks much for your input on this matter! (ie tuning this ROM)

Last edited by TyranosaurusWRX; 10-16-2009 at 09:32 AM.
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Old 10-15-2009, 10:06 PM   #7
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wow so much going through my head, sounds like this would be good, but i really will have to read alot more, and where do you get the rom? also is this how the car runs with the MAF unplugged
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Old 10-15-2009, 10:16 PM   #8
JSarv
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The maf has to be plugged in as it is the reference to IAT. This is not a hack or similar - it is simply a Speed Density style rom. The maf itself is simply just not used in referencing anything in the ecu.

meaning you could run a 10" intake with 50 90*'s and the maf installed - it would hardly read any voltage but the iat would work and that is all that matters..

Speed density doesn't care about the maf - just the map sensor..
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Old 10-15-2009, 10:20 PM   #9
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Aren't there a few "conditions" that reference to g/rev or g/sec on the GNP Rom? Or are those values just calculated?
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Old 10-15-2009, 10:27 PM   #10
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No there are "load" values used but these are calculated in my math problem above..

Maf is simply for "reference to load only (you do the math kind of reference, not the ecu)"

-Jerod
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Old 10-15-2009, 11:12 PM   #11
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Any Subaru ECU can read any level of boost you could possibly run assuming that you have a MAP sensor that can read that level of boost (and you logging the correct parameter - ex. MAP direct). However, with every 16-bit ECU, you can only target up to 39.45 psia. This is due to the way that target boost is stored. This is also the case for the Group N ECU.

The mode byte doesn't have anything to do with the IC switch. The mode byte simply allows you to disable/enable certain features such as anti-lag/LC (enabled by default) and per gear boost/wg comp (disabled by default). The IC switch is one of several requirements that must all be met in order for anti-lag/LC to be active at any given time (assuming they are enabled by the mode byte). The idea, I assume, is to give the rally driver the ability to control when these are active. With the USDM ECU, however, the input for the IC switch is used by something else which has a tendency to be active after warming up (meaning you have no control over it).

To enable FLKC, you will need to lower the FBKC disable threshold (which is why I added it specifically for this ECU).

With the 16-bit ECU, disabling of DTCs does nothing except disable the light on the dash. Any response to the DTC (if any), even when disabled, is still in effect. This could be the cause of some of the driveability issues.

Something that I haven't verified, but the Base Timing A/B switching appears to be based on whether the flash block is installed or not. I'm guessing this was designed to give the race team the ability to switch timing maps on the fly, but someone will have to verify this is practice to be sure.
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Old 10-15-2009, 11:17 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tea cups View Post
Any Subaru ECU can read any level of boost you could possibly run assuming that you have a MAP sensor that can read that level of boost (and you logging the correct parameter - ex. MAP direct). However, with every 16-bit ECU, you can only target up to 39.45 psia. This is due to the way that target boost is stored. This is also the case for the Group N ECU.

The mode byte doesn't have anything to do with the IC switch. The mode byte simply allows you to disable/enable certain features such as anti-lag/LC (enabled by default) and per gear boost/wg comp (disabled by default). The IC switch is one of several requirements that must all be met in order for anti-lag/LC to be active at any given time (assuming they are enabled by the mode byte). The idea, I assume, is to give the rally driver the ability to control when these are active. With the USDM ECU, however, the input for the IC switch is used by something else which has a tendency to be active after warming up (meaning you have no control over it).

To enable FLKC, you will need to lower the FBKC disable threshold (which is why I added it specifically for this ECU).

With the 16-bit ECU, disabling of DTCs does nothing except disable the light on the dash. Any response to the DTC (if any), even when disabled, is still in effect. This could be the cause of some of the driveability issues.

Something that I haven't verified, but the Base Timing A/B switching appears to be based on whether the flash block is installed or not. I'm guessing this was designed to give the race team the ability to switch timing maps on the fly, but someone will have to verify this is practice to be sure.
Man I suck at explaining things

The flashblock would explain why I use Timing Map B - I have my flashblock always connected..
As far as I can find the USDM ecu does not cross any wires that are used on the JDM ECU's.. So in theory it would have to be internal correct?

^ What I mean is no wires are attached to a pin on the USDM ECU that go to something else vs the JDM ecu (this is from about 4 JDM ECU wiring Diagrams.)

Again I'm probably wrong on that. But the IC switch is always on and the OCV always has current even though there are no wires landed on the OCV pins..
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Old 10-16-2009, 12:48 AM   #13
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i just read everything on rom raider forums, and i am waiting for jsarv to post the map for his friends 02, then i will take some stuff from what he has setup, and stuff from what i have changed and maybe get mine running this weekend, and as long as you dont go to crazy with the intake setup, you can just switch maps for people that have emissions testing like me, so sounds like i will be making 2 maps anytime i change anything.
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Old 10-16-2009, 07:34 PM   #14
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after just the short amount of driving i did with this, i agree with jsarv, there is no going back to a maf now
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Old 10-16-2009, 07:36 PM   #15
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http://www.romraider.com/forum/downl...e.php?id=10047

Engine Load calculator for the speed density chart and Vice Versa.

The first chart uses your Speed Density Load Compensation chart and gives outputs the appropriate G/Rev that you will be at at the given RPM VS. MAP.

The second chart (to the right) is designed to take a load value you would like to have at a given RPM VS MAP and gives you the appropriate Speed Density Load calculation to use for that RPM/MAP in a % value.


I know its bare minimum but it works like a champ

-Jerod
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Old 10-16-2009, 10:32 PM   #16
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well went out and started driving, its great out of boost and even into boost except i have time timing in the basement, so even when i get into boost it just seems like i have a gauge moving and not atually a turbo pushing air into the car, and i am assuming this has to do with the fact that i am at like 6 degrees timing. now i do know that feedback knock correction works, because i have knock when starting from a stop, and that is the only place so far
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Old 10-16-2009, 11:22 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSarv View Post
Front o2 Sensor scaling is improper for USDM applications. You have 2 choices - 1. Rescale for your stock roms o2 scaling 2. Move your front o2 Sensor to the Downpipe.
ORLY!?

That's fantastic news! Always wondered if the car would run the same if I just moved the O2 post-turbine. This'll let me get some semi-legitimate AFR readings using the stock sensor even under boost!

Wait a minute... After comparing my 04 WRX ROM to that Group N ROM, the Front O2 scaling isn't any different. Every mA value corresponds to the same AFR. The only difference is the Group N ROM has more cells so the O2 sensor is scaled down to 10.x instead of just 11.36... Is there a huge difference between your 02 WRX ROM and this Group N ROM?

Last edited by MRF582; 10-16-2009 at 11:55 PM.
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Old 10-16-2009, 11:44 PM   #18
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with the twinscroll set up you have to move it
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Old 10-17-2009, 11:47 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MRF582 View Post
ORLY!?

That's fantastic news! Always wondered if the car would run the same if I just moved the O2 post-turbine. This'll let me get some semi-legitimate AFR readings using the stock sensor even under boost!

Wait a minute... After comparing my 04 WRX ROM to that Group N ROM, the Front O2 scaling isn't any different. Every mA value corresponds to the same AFR. The only difference is the Group N ROM has more cells so the O2 sensor is scaled down to 10.x instead of just 11.36... Is there a huge difference between your 02 WRX ROM and this Group N ROM?
I have had the front O2 sensor in the downpipe for almost a year. I haven't had to change the scalings and it is acurate there under boost. I tune the car with it. I don't own a wideband. It does max out rich at 11.3, but I don't usually tune richer than that anyway, so it works out.
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Old 10-17-2009, 11:48 PM   #20
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Have you referenced this to a wideband?
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Old 10-18-2009, 12:13 AM   #21
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Not recently. Been broken for a long time. I've been relying on the stock sensor since. There were a few other threads about it, where people compared wideband vs stock sensor in dp and it was very very close. The stock sensor is a semi-wideband. Very accurate within a narrower range than a true wideband.
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Old 10-18-2009, 12:20 AM   #22
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How's that tuned rom coming along Jerod?

If removing the TGV motors and leaving the sensors intact works, I'm going to be all over this.

Last edited by SVT_WRX; 10-18-2009 at 01:39 AM.
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Old 10-18-2009, 12:44 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 69subaru360 View Post
I have had the front O2 sensor in the downpipe for almost a year. I haven't had to change the scalings and it is acurate there under boost. I tune the car with it. I don't own a wideband. It does max out rich at 11.3, but I don't usually tune richer than that anyway, so it works out.
Fantastic!
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Old 10-18-2009, 01:16 AM   #24
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i do have to say that the stock o2 seems more accurate when it is placed after the turbo even though it doesnt read lower than 11.25 ( some say 11.14, dont know what the difference is with them ) but i will say that with a wideband you can find tune alot better than with the factory narrow band.

after running SD for the pas 3 days all i have to say is this just might be what we need to pull the extra power out of the engine that we know is there, waiting for results of Generals runs at the track to see if this really makes the difference that it feels like it does.
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Old 10-19-2009, 02:22 PM   #25
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For us that are using E85, injector scaling and latency stay the same as what we are using on the non-sd map. Right?
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