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Old 12-26-2009, 06:27 PM   #1
Moore Performance
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Default Moore Performance N/A header feeler.....feeback wanted!

Currently Moore Performance has only dabbled in turbo exhaust products, but we are thinking of putting together a premium UEL header, catpipe/track pipe for 2.5 and 2.2 dual port N/A motors.

What we are thinking of offering is 100% 304 SS product with thick flanges, tig welds, and a LIFETIME WARRANTY that will come in multipe header pipe diameters. One design with smaller primary tubes will be geared toward non-built motor cars with traditional bolt ons, while the other design with larger tubes will be geared toward built motors, nitrous, etc.

We have been kicking around the idea for a while now b/c of the issues associated with other header products currently available on the market.

What I'd like to know is what you guys are really looking for and want, and would a price of around $650-$700 for the header be too much, even if the product would be superior to other products on the market today??

I look forward to hearing your feedback!
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Old 12-26-2009, 08:10 PM   #2
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Well a high quality offering would be nice but $650-$700 for NA ppl looking for burblage is most likely out of most ppls budget ranges.

Now, if you can design UEL's headers with the correct cat setup to avoid the dreaded P0420 and other cel's, that would be something to think about
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Old 12-26-2009, 08:35 PM   #3
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I probably wouldn't spend more than $350 on headers if they're not going to give any performance gains. The boxer rumble is nice but I can't justify spending a lot just for the nice exhaust note. Now if there were some noticeable performance gains from a UEL setup (doubtful) I'd consider spending more. Good to hear someone is listening to the NA guys for once.
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Old 12-26-2009, 09:02 PM   #4
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In my honest opinion, if you want to make a header that might command that kind of price, make one that is ST_ legal but still outperforms the Cobb/Brullen design. OBX copied it and is selling them for under $300 on ebay....but it uses a non stock catpipe and is not ST legal. TWE's designs are very good as well, but again, the cat is either not there or in the wrong spot. Anything thus far that keeps the OEM cat location, has been all but useless as far as gains.

I personally am not chained to having the stock cat location, and am very much interested in a no compromise design. However, I think that for that kind of cash....one design will not satisfy the different needs for different disiplines.

Jay Storm
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Old 12-26-2009, 09:28 PM   #5
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What Jay said ^^^^^^
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Old 12-26-2009, 09:48 PM   #6
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I don't want the burblage. I want a Performance street legal Header. I want equal length with the emphasis on Torque not HP. I have my block bored over 50. Head work and a re-grind cams, and an accessport again with the emphasis on torque. Equal Length High Quality header. UEL's are just for sound and are not for performance. IMO
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Old 12-26-2009, 09:56 PM   #7
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If I were to pay this much for a header, I'd want it to be equal length and ST legal.
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Old 12-26-2009, 10:16 PM   #8
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definetly would not pay that much for a header.
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Old 12-26-2009, 10:17 PM   #9
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You should make two versions- an unequal length midrange torque header, and an equal length tuned catless track header for the guys who go with cams and build for high end. That way you don't get stuck in the middle.
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Old 12-27-2009, 02:13 AM   #10
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Borla replica UEL = $200
OBX Cobb replica EL = $300

Can you compete with this? It's simply a matter of business. Do you think it's worth getting into? TWE offers a premium EL header that's very near that of the Cobb design in specs, but it's $1000 versus $300 and very few people buy them. Borla still makes their UEL header, but they also make a LOT of other products. They don't care so much if many sell or not versus the replica. I think Borla's is somewhere around $600. Then you have Hayward and Scott from the UK that also produces a high end UEL exhaust similarly priced to the TWE products at around $1000, but they don't sell in the US.

Want to do something unique for the NA market, make some intake manifolds. That's where we have zero aftermarket products in the NA market.
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Old 12-27-2009, 03:03 AM   #11
Tim Sanderson
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The cel issue with most aftermarket headers is in my opinion caused from heat loss due to material thickness issues.

Make sure they don't vibrate or crack and don't throw a code. How many posts have we seen complaining about the e-bay knockoffs? Sure they are cheap, and they sure are cheap. 200-300$ for something you have to keep screwing with or 500-600$ for some quality and dependability. I'd opt for quality over crappity any day.
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Old 12-27-2009, 03:35 AM   #12
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there's already someone making great ones for cheap, you have a lot of competition from MS3 industries.
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Old 12-27-2009, 08:34 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kero View Post
Well a high quality offering would be nice but $650-$700 for NA ppl looking for burblage is most likely out of most ppls budget ranges.

Now, if you can design UEL's headers with the correct cat setup to avoid the dreaded P0420 and other cel's, that would be something to think about
I agree with your thoughts on the price for the UEL header......I used to own two other impreza coupes, one was a beautiful '00 RS....should have never sold it, and when I was doing a few exhaust mods I personally wasn't interested in spending that much for a UEL header b/c it wasn't in the budget for that car while I was building the wrx.....or ever for that matter.

I too had the P0420 cel code when I changed exhaust parts on the RS and it was VERY upsetting after spending money on a "good" product that in my opinion didn't deliver, and I worked on eliminating the code for a while. Thanks for the feedback, I appreciate it!
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Old 12-27-2009, 08:37 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by volxport1 View Post
I don't want the burblage. I want a Performance street legal Header. I want equal length with the emphasis on Torque not HP. I have my block bored over 50. Head work and a re-grind cams, and an accessport again with the emphasis on torque. Equal Length High Quality header. UEL's are just for sound and are not for performance. IMO
This was my thought as well, but I wanted to test the waters with the UEL idea before starting to prototype a product. Thanks!
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Old 12-27-2009, 08:46 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm View Post
In my honest opinion, if you want to make a header that might command that kind of price, make one that is ST_ legal but still outperforms the Cobb/Brullen design. OBX copied it and is selling them for under $300 on ebay....but it uses a non stock catpipe and is not ST legal. TWE's designs are very good as well, but again, the cat is either not there or in the wrong spot. Anything thus far that keeps the OEM cat location, has been all but useless as far as gains.

I personally am not chained to having the stock cat location, and am very much interested in a no compromise design. However, I think that for that kind of cash....one design will not satisfy the different needs for different disiplines.

Jay Storm

Jay,
You and I had talked a little bit about N/A exhaust ideas and thoughts at nationals this year and even though I drove Brian's vette I climbed under just about every wrx/sti in order to get some feedback about the exact exhaust setups guys ran on the turbo cars at national events. I built my wrx/sti exhaust with a variety of sound levels in order to beat the ever more popular sound checks at these events but I wanted to make sure the dp and catback portions could work with other factory exhaust pieces.

I would like to put together a nice header, trackpipe/catpipe setup that would use the factory locations in order to be SCCA legal, while also making power, and I would need to do some R&D to try to figure out the perfect way to eliminate the 0420 cel.

This is a tough product to build because of the specific needs and wants for street cars and race cars, and the price per HP or TQ gain in not nearly as great as the turbo motors. I have alot to think about, but I thank you for your feedback!
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Old 12-27-2009, 08:50 AM   #16
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Overall I'm very impressed with the feedback I've received and there's alot of things I need to research and consider before I go ahead and produce a prototype. I'm very happy to see that guys in the autox community have very specific wants and needs and they will all be taken into consideration as we work on this project. Please feel free to provide me any other thoughts and ideas and thank you again for your time and feeback!
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Old 12-27-2009, 11:19 AM   #17
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Moore,
A 304 SS header for these cars is a waste of money. The reason I say this is because when Cobb made theirs they did a lot of testing and found the thermal (heat retention) values of the mild steel were superior to stainless. Even though stainless has this reputation for being more durable and prettier it's not the best performer. It will be easier for you to hit a lower price point with mild steel, which will also give better performance than an identical design out of 304 SS.
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Old 12-27-2009, 11:34 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Monson View Post
Moore,
A 304 SS header for these cars is a waste of money. The reason I say this is because when Cobb made theirs they did a lot of testing and found the thermal (heat retention) values of the mild steel were superior to stainless. Even though stainless has this reputation for being more durable and prettier it's not the best performer. It will be easier for you to hit a lower price point with mild steel, which will also give better performance than an identical design out of 304 SS.
In addition to matt's thinking, you could offer a SS and mild version of both. same jig, same bends, no extra tooling just different material.

One thing I would have paid for if it existed was a header heat shield, much like the factory one, to help heat retention AND insulate that annoying seweing machine sound of the valvetrain that virtually all aftermarket headers will allow.

If the factory SS exhaust manifold used one, a thinner aftermarket header, (especially one with longer primaries) would need one to maintain the heat that the factory setup called for.
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Old 12-27-2009, 02:56 PM   #19
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Moore, seems like the overall problem is price. If you can bring the price down to 3-400. I know the obx and borla had problems cracking will yours have the same problems? Would you be willing to make a equal length header set up, and even a set of headers for the 06 and up imprezas?

-Les
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Old 12-27-2009, 03:47 PM   #20
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Maybe you can offer ceramic coating at the very least for those prices :P
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Old 12-27-2009, 06:25 PM   #21
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Moore Performance:

I think a better direction for this build would be to target 2006 and newer models. The reasons being : 1. All the current headers are for 2005 and older N/A Subaru 2. The larger demand now is for a true BOLT-ON solution to 2006 and newer owners. 3. This way you would no be entering into a saturated market for EL or UEL header for N/A Subarus

If you only target 2006 and newer I would build UEL primarily and EL in lesser numbers because 1. The stock EL header is VERY efficient so much so that most EL aftermarket Turbo headers are based off of the Subaru design 2. IF you venture across the various Subaru forums you will sense a stronger desire for the bolt-on UEL option.

The majority of the guys wanting aftermarket headers aren't running built setups so you don't need to spec the header primaries too much larger to run more or equally efficient to the stock unit. For the few that have bolt-ons the maximum extent would be cams in which case the stock header still would flow sufficient.

Many guys are going to say "well I will not pay that much for sound or just for the burble" blah blah.....

What it boils down to at the end of the day is that you make a cost effective UEL header that is 100 percent bolt-on solution for the 2006 + crowd. Yes that includes a solution to the integrated cat. I would suggest that you build the UEL header with the cat integrated in the stock location that bolts to the stock mid pipe or make a Header mid-pipe combo and included O2 wire extensions in the kit.

In the end you will probably make a stand alone header and a header mid-pipe combo that will address the cat and stock sensor location issue. If you can integrate a converter in the header that utilizes the stock sensor locations and keep the price down youll sell a bunch of them. If the converter means higher price consider leaving it out altogether.
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Old 12-28-2009, 01:46 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moore Performance View Post
Currently Moore Performance has only dabbled in turbo exhaust products, but we are thinking of putting together a premium UEL header
In a word: DON'T.

The only thing you can do is to beat eBay to the bottom of the market. The Borla knock offs are all that's needed. They fit well enough, they last well enough, they sound the way everyone wants them to sound. The only thing you can bring to the party on a UEL header is a lower price.

Quote:
will come in multipe header pipe diameters. One design with smaller primary tubes will be geared toward non-built motor cars with traditional bolt ons, while the other design with larger tubes will be geared toward built motors, nitrous, etc.
This effort is wasted on a UEL design. If the customer has chosen to go UEL, they've already chosen to ignore performance. There's no point in offering headers suited to different power bands. You're not going to sell a UEL header to a guy looking for power.

Quote:
What I'd like to know is what you guys are really looking for and want, and would a price of around $650-$700 for the header be too much, even if the product would be superior to other products on the market today??
Yes, way too much for a UEL header. I think you could get an EL header in at this price point. You've got basically the OBX and the TWE in the market now. The OBX is poorly constructed, a lot of people have problems with them rusting and cracking, and they use that non-stock flange and cat location. However, they're only $300. Then you've got the TWE that last forever, are reliably made, and preserve the stock flange location (and therefore cat section). But they cost more money than god.

If you could come out with a EL header that will last, is reliably put together, and costs $6-700, I think you'd sell enough to make it worth your while.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm View Post
In my honest opinion, if you want to make a header that might command that kind of price, make one that is ST_ legal but still outperforms the Cobb/Brullen design. OBX copied it and is selling them for under $300 on ebay....but it uses a non stock catpipe and is not ST legal. TWE's designs are very good as well, but again, the cat is either not there or in the wrong spot. Anything thus far that keeps the OEM cat location, has been all but useless as far as gains.
TWE keeps the stock cat (if you want). It's got the same flange location as the stock header. It's one of the advantages, as far as I see it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Back Road Runner View Post
Want to do something unique for the NA market, make some intake manifolds. That's where we have zero aftermarket products in the NA market.
For that matter, what the NA market needs is a damned axleback! There's literally one company making them!

Seriously guys, make a NA axleback with mandrel bent stainless and a Borla ProXS or Magnaflow can and you guys will corner 50% of the market just by showing up. That's where the money is.
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Old 12-28-2009, 02:08 AM   #23
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I agree with willy on the axlebacks
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Old 12-28-2009, 02:13 AM   #24
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Quote:
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I agree with willy on the axlebacks
yep, stromung or a fab job as far as i'm concerened.
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Old 12-28-2009, 03:23 AM   #25
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The only thing I don't like about an axleback is that you can buy any muffler you want, walk into any exhaust shop, and have one fabricated from scratch for the same or cheaper...short maybe some of the eBay mass-marketed ones that are simply super dirt cheap. Headers are things that are not easy to fabricate. The rest of the exhaust is relatively easy for a welder at a shop.
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