TD04 19T Upgrade Discussion

[Brock31]

Looking for some dyno resuots for the 19T.

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[ForesterWTi]

Hey everyone,

I've chosen to be quiet until after reading all the pages referring to the TD04 Tuning (low end/power/torque).

I started my GC8 quest like this: 1993 Impreza L 5spd RARE stock color: barney purple 4 door sedan (matte black hood/trunk; wingless/scoopless TOTAL SLEEPER)

EJ18 (fully broken down and sanded/polished, new seals 64K) 2002 WRX heads, TD04 turbo'ed with a SAFE daily 5psi (running atmospheric with a mesh screen), open headers (heat
wrapped), open uppipe, 3" full turbo back exhaust, HUGE front mount
intercooler, real JDM front bumper support, Forge blow off valve stiff
spring (never hear it), Rota 17" wheels GOLD with brand new all season GT tires, the rear interior has been fully tubbed out (VERY light
GC8!), I also have a made-by-custom-order 6 puck RACE STAGE clutch and flywheel made-just-for this car not installed ($1000). ABSOLUTELY NO CHECK ENGINE LIGHT --- DONE RIGHT --- ONLY DRIVEN ONCE IN A BLUE MOON --- NEEDS NOTHING--- DO COILOVERS AND COMPETITIVELY TRACK ENDURO RACE HER... I just want $3500 for her.

The reason for selling is that I just bought a 1995 GF8 in matte black with FULL 2002 WRX wagen swap (driveshaft, axles, diffs, ect. ect. motor, tranny, dash, seats ect. ect. EVEN down to the carpeting!)

I knew about deadbolt so outsourced: Performance Techniques in CA http://turbocharged.com/main.htm will do the 19t upgrade BUT you can go one step further and buy their take on the Monster TD04 --- 19-T Upgrade compressor section, a # 6 A/R exhaust housing, completely blue printed, balanced, heavy duty racing style 360 deg. thrust bearing set-up with a dynamic compressor seal for extra fast spool-up.

I bought this turbo on EBAY for JUST $422 shipped!!! Try to get a VF or 16g for that price... haha

Should get some pulls on the dyno as soon as by the end of January!

Please ask me anything as I LOVE the conceptual talk on this upgrade.

AND I have successfully built my "truly divorced" DP that allows the internal WG to vent atmospherically --- LOVE rpm killer AWD torque!

Cheers,
~Wolf

[samo22]

... so any dyno results of the 19t?

[downpipe12]

check page 1

[samo22]

i meant besides that one

[Ysidro]

[VWGrk1]

Can't believe this thread is still alive. Well, for what it is worth, I went down this path (modded TD04) years ago...last decade in 2004, lol. Generally speaking, the turbo pulled like a small V8 in the low end...hit about 250wtq very quickly. I was running 21 or so psi in the mid range, which felt great. That said, low end torque is deceptive, making a car feel faster than it is; anybody who has driven a diesel will know what I mean.

At the end of the day, it could not surpass 245-250whp. We are talking with typical stage 4 mods. It held 18-16 or so psi in the 6,000+ range, but power still fell off towards redline (on the dyno, at least, but it felt good). This is on a dyno that put a stock 2.0 at about 170whp.

While a fun and comparatively inexpensive turbo, my advice is to think twice before going this route and make sure it suits your goals. Sure, today there are fancier options to make a tad more power that I did not have back in the day (EWG, E85, headers, good intakes, etc). But, consider how much you are spending to eek every last bit out of a turbo that is small. I do not care what wheel you put in there: the hot and cold sides of the turbo are not changing in size. You might be better off just going bigger from the start. Consider that you constantly hear stories of people going bigger and almost never going smaller...this from a guy who is on his 4th, and largest, turbo set up, lol.

If there was a turbo that made and held 300whp and still made huge torque on a 2.0 below 3,000 rpm, we'd all be running one. Physics is working against us, unfortunately.

[samo22]

Thanks for the input, I am definetly going with vf39. Although the quick spool is nice, but like they said "the boost is down shift away." the used vf39 probably would be cheaper too.

[hex2bit]

I'm getting my 2004 FXT tuned tomorrow morning... basically a 2.5L with this turbo, EWG, some porting work, and 3" exhaust all the way back. I've been looking for low-end with a good powerband for local auto-x/rally-x and all around fun

I'll post up my results when I get back... guessing around 300 whp, plus +300 ft/lbs or torque.

[boxerfxt]

Originally Posted by hex2bit

I'm getting my 2004 FXT tuned tomorrow morning... basically a 2.5L with this turbo, EWG, some porting work, and 3" exhaust all the way back. I've been looking for low-end with a good powerband for local auto-x/rally-x and all around fun

I'll post up my results when I get back... guessing around 300 whp, plus +300 ft/lbs or torque.

that seems a little high? what kind of dyno is it? either way its great to hear of another modded forester... good luck!

[StuSSYsporT]

Originally Posted by hex2bit

guessing around 300 whp, plus +300 ft/lbs or torque.

ahhhhh..... yeah, as boxerfxt said.... thats some high expectations that i doubt u are going to get. but hey, prove me wrong... id love to see u get those numbers

[hex2bit]

I'm back from the dyno... and yeah, my expectations were a little high, but I may have a bug to work out still.

I put down 226 whp / 270 ft-lbs on a Mustang dyno, running 92 octane, and a pretty conservative tune. The turbo starts building significant boost around 2400 rpm, peaks at 3500 rpm, and then starts to tapper off after 4300 rpm. It's very similar to Steve's on the first page, just earlier. He seems to not have as quick of a drop off as me after the midrange. Given previous setups I've run and what I've upgraded, I'm suspecting my intake is restricting me in some way. None of my setups have really broken the 225 hp mark and some should have. At first, I thought it was my exhaust, which I've upgraded entirely, but since I'm still stuck, it looks like I might need an inlet pipe... which is on my todo list.

In summary, this turbo is quick spooling, with plenty of midrange power, which great for daily driving and auto-x/rally-x events. If I can sort out the restrictions I have left, I should be able to get some decent gains in the top-end with similar results to Steve's. I'm hoping my EWG setup and 2.5L would net me a little bit more than his on the top-end side.

Quick overview of car:
2004 FXT, 2.5L newly rebuilt motor (forged pistons), EWG with 1 bar waste-gate plumbed back into down-pipe, TGV deletes, STI exhaust headers with porting, full 3" exhaust with single high-flow cat in down-pipe, Hyperflow TMIC, 740cc injectors, 255 lph fuel pump, and various other supporting mods.

Dyno results:
http://www.hex2bit.com/public/19T-TD04%20FXT%20dyno.png

Video:

YouTube- 2004 Subaru FXT, 19T TD04, EWG... Getting Dyno Tuned

YouTube- 2004 Subaru FXT, 19T TD04, EWG... Getting Dyno Tuned

[Haelan]

In my opinion, after reading a lot about this turbo, it is undersized for a 2.5L.

[Prevent]

Originally Posted by Haelan

In my opinion, after reading a lot about this turbo, it is undersized for a 2.5L.

This... even the VF39 IMO is undersized for a 2.5L.

[samo22]

dang, with vf39 and exact same set up, your car probably would have made around 260-270 whp on the mustang dyno with pump gas. That's with assuming that a stock sti reads around 210 whp on that dyno.

your mods are really good though. I don't think the intake and turbo inlet is that much of a restriction. I'd think the high flow cat is more of a restriction, but still not that significant.

to me, for power wise the td04-19t seems to be closer to the stock td04 than vf39. The spool is slower for the vf39, but probably by only few hundred rpm, maybe 400-800 rpm?

in my honest opinion with no disrespect, I don't think the 19t upgrade over vf39 is worth it because it seems like the 19t won't make nearly as much power as the vf39 and the price for a used good condition vf39 could be cheaper than having a stock td04 upgraded to have the 19t wheel for $325 plus any rebuilding costs. It is true that the vf39 lags more, but i believe i will enjoy the higher mid range and high end power of the vf39 when going wot on the freeway on ramps haha.

I could be wrong though, just my thoughts.

[hex2bit]

I agree, the 19T TD04 is closer to a stock TD04 than a VF39. Basically the upgrade will net you close to 20% more air flow, giving you those HP gains with spool very similar to a stock TD04. If you like the feel of a stock TD04, then the upgrade is a higher powered version of it. Personally, I've run a VF35 and an 18g, and have gone back to a TD04 simply for the quickness of it and the powerband centered around 3K, which is pretty much what you run at driving around under normal gearing. However, it's not as fun on the freeway ramps as samo22 had said It is not as fast as my 18g when revving through the gears, but has more passing power without the need to downshift at normal driving RPMs.

Now, I like power as much as the next guy... and honestly I'd love to run a big turbo. However, being stuck with a 5 speed, I've decided to stick with a turbo that has power in a more practical range. If I ever get a good chunk of money saved up, I'd love to do a 6 speed swap or a built up 5 speed, and then run a twin turbo setup similar to Borg Warner's RS2 setup... which they call "regulated 2 stage turbocharging". It's pretty much a hybrid between a staged and sequential turbo charger setup. It behaves like a sequential, but is built similar to staged. It would have to be all custom for a subaru, and thus lots of $$$, but could potentially give you full boost from 2K to redline with the right pairing of turbos... which I think is pure evil ... in a good way.

As far as my downpipe, it's an Ultimate Racing one with a metal substrate cat, rated efficient to 700 whp. Given marketing hype, assuming it's only good for half that, I shouldn't see a restriction issue with it. My tuner did mention it would be better if the cat was located farther away from the turbo through. It's my only cat, so I kind of want to keep it. I'm also running an EWG that by-passes the cat, so that should be helping a bit too. Many people feel that the stock inlet isn't the restriction, and I'm sure it's not "that" restrictive. However, if you're running your turbo at its limit, every bit of pressure against it reduces its ability to produce boost. A big turbo has plenty of ability to work against it, a small turbo does not. So I'm still thinking my inlet hose may be limiting me, especially since Steve is seeing better top-end results running an upgraded inlet hose. I could be wrong as there's so many things that play together, and the engines are different, so I guess I'll find out when I do my inlet upgrade.

[samo22]

yeah I've always been curious on how much difference in spool and power gain with an aftermarket turbo inlet on stock td04 or vf39. I've searched around but didn't find any definite answer yet. People say it helps turbo spool a little quicker and make little more power due to better flow. I wonder how much is little? Also everything will depend on the tune so it's really hard to find a good comparison.

[Back Road Runner]

Any clue what's happening on the top end? For example, the graph on the first page shows basically the same peak torque in the midrange but shows significantly less roll off of torque on the top end. Why does yours drop so significantly? Was the boost at the target levels all the way up? Did it have to be at 12psi by 6k? What about timing? Any knock issue limiting the setup?

[hex2bit]

The tuner couldn't get any more boost out of mine. That's where I'd be interested in seeing what Steve's boost looked like and if his power is coming from boost or other areas like timing. Timing can get you some additional gains, but most tuners don't try to push it because it's the least safe method of gaining power. I'm running 92 octane Kwik Trip gas, and my tuner didn't see much for problems with it.

Also, something I've noticed with mine. My BOV never really blows off. What that means is that my engine is gobbling up whatever boost I make, thus there's no restriction after the turbo (intake, engine, exhaust) that is causing the engine to not flow as much air as my turbo is producing. This would suggest that if I have any significant remaining restriction it would be pre-turbo, such as the inlet or airbox. Given Steve is running a stock air box and just an inlet upgrade, I'm still thinking there might be some restriction with the inlet.

[Android287]

For what its worth. I running a stock inlet on my vf34 set up. My tuner said its not a restriction. I also run the stock air box with a drop in. The snorkus is deleted. On a back to back dyno, untuned this did gain me almost 10 hp. Boost touches 22psi and gradually tapers to 17. Makes 310HP and 320lbs on a dyno dynamics with a 1.2 correction. Full boost is at 3800. Makes 300hp at redline 7k. Peak torque is around 4400. Its a blast to drive but I do miss the early spool of the td04. Wonder how close the 19t could get on meth.

[d3v0]

I don't want much more power, and my turbo has 86k on it already... This might be the way to go.

[Scooby921]

Originally Posted by hex2bit

Also, something I've noticed with mine. My BOV never really blows off. What that means is that my engine is gobbling up whatever boost I make, thus there's no restriction after the turbo (intake, engine, exhaust) that is causing the engine to not flow as much air as my turbo is producing. This would suggest that if I have any significant remaining restriction it would be pre-turbo, such as the inlet or airbox. Given Steve is running a stock air box and just an inlet upgrade, I'm still thinking there might be some restriction with the inlet.

You have an aftermarket BOV or the stock BPV? If its an aftermarket valve I think you might have a problem with boost leak. That would explain why you don't hear the valve open and vent...its partially open under boost and leaking before you close the throttle and need it to open. That might also explain why you're not seeing the power you expected.

Originally Posted by d3v0

I don't want much more power, and my turbo has 86k on it already... This might be the way to go.

Same here. My turbo is pushing 140k miles and I think the seals are dying as the engine is starting to burn oil and compression is still good.

I should be getting my reimbursement for unused vacation days this Friday. I'll be sending out my turbo for modification next week . I'm excited.

[d3v0]

A buddy of mine has a td04 with ~50k miles but its from his 03 bugeye I could a.) send it or b.) put his in my car (some modification needed I believe) and send mine out. Are you gonna pay the $95 for the port?

[Scooby921]

Originally Posted by d3v0

A buddy of mine has a td04 with ~50k miles but its from his 03 bugeye I could a.) send it or b.) put his in my car (some modification needed I believe) and send mine out. Are you gonna pay the $95 for the port?

As long as your friend has taken care of his car and not flogged the turbo with high boost pressures or aftermarket BOV's that might leak boost and stress the turbo it should be just fine. Blouch has to take the turbo apart to do the upgrade. You can ask them to check the bearings and call you if they need to be replaced. If they are good, no cost. If they are bad then you can make that decision on the spot.

The turbo I'm sending for the 19t upgrade happens to be a deadbolt monster td04, so it already has some nice exhaust porting and coating. If it didn't, I would still pay the $95 for porting. Clipping the turbine wheel gets better top end power, but you lose a little of the spool characteristics. The porting work should increase exhaust flow into and out of the turbine which should recover some of the spool characteristics you'd lose from the turbine clipping. IMO its the best way to get the top end power while maintaining decent response.

[05ASPINREX]

anyone selling onbe of these puppies pm me =)