Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Friday April 18, 2014
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
Click here to visit TireRack
Brakes & Suspension Forum sponsored by The Tire Rack

Losing traction? Need new tires?
Click here to visit the NASIOC Upgrade Garage...
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Technical > Brakes, Steering & Suspension

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-04-2010, 09:59 PM   #76
wrxsti.l
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 156973
Join Date: Aug 2007
Chapter/Region: International
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Vehicle:
2002 ADM WRX STi
STi Black/Blue

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daishi00 View Post
If that was your point then yes I agree. It seemed like you were trying to make it sound that to have a good handling vehicle it had to be a bear to drive around town.
np. interweb makes it hard to get a point across sometimes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daishi00 View Post
You still need droop regardless if you're running higher spring rates and higher rated dampers. This idea that spring rate removes the need for travel makes no sense. You want the tire to maintain contact with the road as much as possible and if you don't have travel you're going to start lifting wheels which is going to lower overall grip levels.
As long as the motion ratio of the damper is suited to the droop travel and stops the damper from bottoming out then comparing droop travel of one suspension setup to that of another is irrelevant - and even more so for those cars wanting improved track performance.

You can have oodles of droop travel and still ride the bumpstops (ie. like stock STi strut/spring combo) and wreak havok on suspension performance, or you can have less droop travel, with suitable dampers and motion ratio to suit the application that rarely ride the bumpstops at all (plus the many points in between).

I'm just saying, ppl need to educate themselves a little more before throwing around the droop travel argument as the be all and end all of good suspension design.

Leslie
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
wrxsti.l is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2010, 10:13 PM   #77
Daishi00
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 78952
Join Date: Jan 2005
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: BSG junkie
Vehicle:
2005 WRX
CGM

Default

I think you're missing the point of the thread. Cheap coilovers not only don't have enough droop, they don't have enough bump and they sure as hell aren't a suitable damper which they probably didn't even check motion ratio before developing.

Nobody is saying that droop travel is the end all be all, we're saying it's a component that needs to be taken into account and it IS an important factor.
Daishi00 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2010, 10:30 PM   #78
trick3d
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 202146
Join Date: Feb 2009
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: My Island
Vehicle:
2010 evoru
GG

Default Re: Cheap coilovers and droop

Haha so now you all got me thinking about my suspension setup. Is the suspension set up correctly for a DD/ weekend warrior? Besides the need for a stiffer front sway and group n hats.

06wrx
Tokico struts
Rce black springs "regular guy"
Stock hats
Rear saggy butt spacer
22rear sway stoutounts and kartboy endlinks (I know I need the front sway upgraded)
So have Properly set my car up for appropriate suspension travel. Let's say the tokico damp is set to
Front :5TFFF (turns from full Firm)
Rear: 5.5TFFF

Lots of good info in here.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
trick3d is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2010, 10:32 PM   #79
Daishi00
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 78952
Join Date: Jan 2005
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: BSG junkie
Vehicle:
2005 WRX
CGM

Default

The stock hats are hurting the handling and feel of the car but other than that it's a decent setup. I'm not familiar with the Tokico settings so someone else would have to chime in on that.
Daishi00 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2010, 10:35 PM   #80
trick3d
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 202146
Join Date: Feb 2009
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: My Island
Vehicle:
2010 evoru
GG

Default Re: Cheap coilovers and droop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daishi00
The stock hats are hurting the handling and feel of the car but other than that it's a decent setup. I'm not familiar with the Tokico settings so someone else would have to chime in on that.
Ok thanks. Hats and a whiteline front sway are next on the list.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
trick3d is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2010, 12:09 AM   #81
littlewhitewagon
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 103068
Join Date: Dec 2005
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: PM me if I don't answer posts
Vehicle:
11 STI sedan
SWP

Default

Thanks for the help, I guess I have found good enough reasons to try non-Japanese suspension...
littlewhitewagon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2010, 08:47 AM   #82
boost junkie
Top Scoob 009
 
Member#: 68273
Join Date: Aug 2004
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Silver Spring, MD
Vehicle:
2012 WRX
GD Race Car in progress

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wrxsti.l View Post
As long as the motion ratio of the damper is suited to the droop travel and stops the damper from bottoming out then comparing droop travel of one suspension setup to that of another is irrelevant - and even more so for those cars wanting improved track performance.

You can have oodles of droop travel and still ride the bumpstops (ie. like stock STi strut/spring combo) and wreak havok on suspension performance, or you can have less droop travel, with suitable dampers and motion ratio to suit the application that rarely ride the bumpstops at all (plus the many points in between).

I'm just saying, ppl need to educate themselves a little more before throwing around the droop travel argument as the be all and end all of good suspension design.

Leslie
I think you are confusing some terms here. Motion ratio is the relationship between damper travel and wheel travel, not something attributed to a damper itself. It seems like you also have droop and bump travel backwards. Both are important, however. And the overall travel of the damper is what's important here, it's a piece of cake to change the bump stops but you can't make up for a lack of travel in the damper's design.
boost junkie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2010, 04:26 PM   #83
littlewhitewagon
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 103068
Join Date: Dec 2005
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: PM me if I don't answer posts
Vehicle:
11 STI sedan
SWP

Default

Alrighty, so this thread has made me interested enough to order some new KWs for my wagon. However, I have some questions about the differences of the Club Sport vs V3. Do any of the things we talked about here apply to those two models and is one better than the other since there is a massive price difference?
littlewhitewagon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2010, 04:46 PM   #84
Daishi00
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 78952
Join Date: Jan 2005
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: BSG junkie
Vehicle:
2005 WRX
CGM

Default

don't forget T2's as an option if you want to do KW based units.

The big difference between the Club Sports and the V3's are the CS use linear springs and different valving. Other than that they are pretty much the same.

The T2's are V3's with linear springs and some custom valving spec'd by RCE. I've had mine for two years and love them.

The TIC AST units are excellent as well, so don't rule them out either.
Daishi00 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2010, 08:20 PM   #85
Circuit Motorsports
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 220868
Join Date: Aug 2009
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: www.CircuitMotorsports.net
Vehicle:
2005 STi Urban Camo
Orlando, FL

Default

The KW V3's should be more than enough, the clubsports are geared towards more track use.

As Daishi said, there are also custom KW style coilovers and other options when you get into that price range.
Circuit Motorsports is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2010, 07:22 PM   #86
vinxH
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 159796
Join Date: Sep 2007
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: Los Angeles
Vehicle:
2006 WRX

Default

I would think that too much droop would lead to a more sloppy suspension feel.

Also, I would also think how fast the suspension "droops" is more important than the maximum amount of droop when it is raised up.

I've seen different cars with coilovers get jacked up, and some would droop at a faster rate than others. From how I see it, it makes sense that the faster it droops, the more useful it is to keep the tire on the road as you pass by a bump for a split second.

This is how I see it, but feel free to englighten me; but I think there are a lot of factors being left out here in the discussion

Last edited by vinxH; 02-06-2010 at 07:30 PM.
vinxH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2010, 10:27 PM   #87
Daishi00
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 78952
Join Date: Jan 2005
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: BSG junkie
Vehicle:
2005 WRX
CGM

Default

More droop isn't going to give you sloppy suspension feel. Ok...if you're doing 4x4 offroading levels of droop then maybe, but for our cars in a non rally configuration it's not an issue.
Daishi00 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2010, 01:17 AM   #88
williaty
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 71092
Join Date: Sep 2004
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Delaware County, Ohio
Vehicle:
2005 2.5RS Wagon
Regal Blue Pearl

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinxH View Post
I would think that too much droop would lead to a more sloppy suspension feel.
Nope, not at all. Beyond a certain amount of total travel (often in the 30+ inch range for things shaped vaguely like out cars), it gets a little hard to control the movement, but the ~6" of total travel on a good Subie suspension won't cause any problems.

Quote:
Also, I would also think how fast the suspension "droops" is more important than the maximum amount of droop when it is raised up.

I've seen different cars with coilovers get jacked up, and some would droop at a faster rate than others. From how I see it, it makes sense that the faster it droops, the more useful it is to keep the tire on the road as you pass by a bump for a split second.
You're now talking about damping, not travel. Yes, getting the bound and rebound travel is also an important part of good suspension. However, faster is not always better. Faster means the damper is exerting less control over the spring. At a certain point, that will mean the spring is not sufficiently controlled. The fastest setup would have no damper at all and it's obvious how bad that would be.
williaty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2010, 06:58 PM   #89
littlewhitewagon
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 103068
Join Date: Dec 2005
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: PM me if I don't answer posts
Vehicle:
11 STI sedan
SWP

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Circuit Motorsports View Post
The KW V3's should be more than enough, the clubsports are geared towards more track use.

As Daishi said, there are also custom KW style coilovers and other options when you get into that price range.
Sounds like a plan. V3 it is.

I hit the tracks quite often, but at over $3g, I'd rather buy other things...

As I understand, the V3 doesn't come with top mounts, so you have to use your original mounts. Will other mounts like CUSCO fit? I ask since I have those already.

I also noticed that the RCE units have helper springs from their web pics and different colored spring collars. So do the V3 not have helper springs and use a progressive spring instead? Are the collars different materials?

What are the spring rates on the V3 for a 04+ WRX?
littlewhitewagon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2010, 07:09 PM   #90
jamal
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 71875
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Montana
Vehicle:
98 2.5GT
my wheels fit

Default

yes, the v3s use a progressive rear. Places like robispec and rce use different spring rates and valving on them, which makes a big performance improvement
jamal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2010, 07:40 PM   #91
Daishi00
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 78952
Join Date: Jan 2005
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: BSG junkie
Vehicle:
2005 WRX
CGM

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jamal View Post
yes, the v3s use a progressive rear. Places like robispec and rce use different spring rates and valving on them, which makes a big performance improvement
This. I would take T2's over V3's in a heartbeat. The difference in cost is minimal considering you get linear springs, better spring rates mated to a different valve setup that gives you a smoother ride.
Daishi00 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2010, 11:59 AM   #92
gagliano
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 39541
Join Date: Jul 2003
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Northern VA
Vehicle:
2002 WRX & 2004 STI
WR Blue

Default

I love all the theory passed around in this thread. There is compromise in everything. I wouldn't put a set of coil overs on my car if I still lived in NJ, but where I live now in VA, its not that much of an issue. If I am traveling on a road where I need that much droop travel available I am going to do one of two things, 1. drive a lot slower for the bumpy conditions or 2. Take the wife's Forester.

It always comes down to budget and compromise. The manufacturers know that and make a product that they feel best meets the customer's needs. I would argue why would anyone buy a coil over that doesn't have separate height adjustment? Obviously, some manufactures don't feel this is an important issue at that price point. All mods to our cars are done based on several issues and it is a personal choice, some of us make better choices than others and 'your' choice may not be right for me.

Good discussion though......
gagliano is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2010, 12:12 PM   #93
PleiadesSTi
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 194132
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Indiana
Vehicle:
2009 WRX Sedan
SSM

Default

Very informative conversation here. What would be a good upgrade to my 09 wrx suspension that would reduce body roll and wheel gap but at the same time retaining the ability of the shocks/springs to do their job properly?
PleiadesSTi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2010, 12:29 PM   #94
boost junkie
Top Scoob 009
 
Member#: 68273
Join Date: Aug 2004
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Silver Spring, MD
Vehicle:
2012 WRX
GD Race Car in progress

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gagliano View Post
I would argue why would anyone buy a coil over that doesn't have separate height adjustment?
Because you don't need it. This is a method that the budget manufacturers use so that they can use the same damper for multiple applications. Then they put a positive spin on it and convince people it is a necessary feature. Look at pretty much any coilovers in the $1500+ range and they don't have dual height adjustability.
boost junkie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2010, 12:49 PM   #95
gagliano
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 39541
Join Date: Jul 2003
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Northern VA
Vehicle:
2002 WRX & 2004 STI
WR Blue

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by boost junkie View Post
Because you don't need it. This is a method that the budget manufacturers use so that they can use the same damper for multiple applications. Then they put a positive spin on it and convince people it is a necessary feature. Look at pretty much any coilovers in the $1500+ range and they don't have dual height adjustability.
Then explain how you corner balance your car?
gagliano is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2010, 12:53 PM   #96
williaty
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 71092
Join Date: Sep 2004
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Delaware County, Ohio
Vehicle:
2005 2.5RS Wagon
Regal Blue Pearl

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gagliano View Post
Then explain how you corner balance your car?
You don't. No, really, stay with me here.

If you're driving on the street, there's no reason to corner balance your car. it's just not necessary or beneficial. If you're driving your daily on the track, you STILL don't need to because all the crap you're doing to make it a daily is hurting your on track performance way worse than not being corner balanced. If you're making a dedicated race car which will really benefit from corner weighting, then you're going to need something better than the Cheap Crap Coilovers we're discussing here.
williaty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2010, 01:00 PM   #97
Turn in Concepts
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 93646
Join Date: Aug 2005
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Vehicle:
Many Track Records
Let us help you go fast!

Default

To go along with this though you still can corner weight your car with coilovers that don't offer "dual height adjustability" in the same fashion. You would use the lower spring perch to adjust the height to get the weights correct. A properly corner weighted subaru will never be the same heights on at all corners.

Tony
Turn in Concepts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2010, 01:07 PM   #98
Arnie
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 1725
Join Date: Jun 2000
Chapter/Region: International
Location: Germany
Vehicle:
99 Subaru Impreza
GF silver

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turn in Concepts View Post
A properly corner weighted subaru will never be the same heights on at all corners.

Tony

WHAT?!?!? But, that would look horrible! What's that going to do to the street cred of my hellaflush whip?
Arnie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2010, 01:08 PM   #99
gagliano
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 39541
Join Date: Jul 2003
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Northern VA
Vehicle:
2002 WRX & 2004 STI
WR Blue

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by williaty View Post
You don't. No, really, stay with me here.

If you're driving on the street, there's no reason to corner balance your car. it's just not necessary or beneficial. If you're driving your daily on the track, you STILL don't need to because all the crap you're doing to make it a daily is hurting your on track performance way worse than not being corner balanced. If you're making a dedicated race car which will really benefit from corner weighting, then you're going to need something better than the Cheap Crap Coilovers we're discussing here.
My car is not a daily driver anymore. Not sure what 'crap I'm doing to it to make it a daily' you're talking about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turn in Concepts View Post
To go along with this though you still can corner weight your car with coilovers that don't offer "dual height adjustability" in the same fashion. You would use the lower spring perch to adjust the height to get the weights correct. A properly corner weighted subaru will never be the same heights on at all corners.

Tony
Tony, it was a loaded question. My point was corner balancing with a dual adjustable setup is easier/more effective than changing preloads to accomplish the same thing.
gagliano is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2010, 01:09 PM   #100
littlewhitewagon
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 103068
Join Date: Dec 2005
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: PM me if I don't answer posts
Vehicle:
11 STI sedan
SWP

Default

^^^ This is for reals. A friend purchased a set of the LongAcre scales and for fun, we balanced my car, all 4 corners are at different heights. I can't say I know if there was a difference in the car since I'm not a super advanced driver, but the hub to fender distances were definitely not the same afterward. 1/4 to 1/2 inch differences if I remember right.
littlewhitewagon is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
GC Kit and droop jeisen Brakes, Steering & Suspension 7 02-15-2010 08:18 AM
back to stock sale coilovers and other parts cheap mrguppy MAIC Private Classifieds 14 10-13-2008 02:46 PM
Springing options for coilovers - attacking stroke and droop travel Scooby921 Brakes, Steering & Suspension 7 05-10-2007 11:41 AM
FS: Brand New Coilovers and Shocks Cheap! wildchild Private 'For Sale' Classifieds 2 08-01-2004 07:46 PM
Cheap coilover kits on eBay B-Kerr Brakes, Steering & Suspension 11 05-31-2003 12:40 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:55 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2014 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2014, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.