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Old 05-01-2010, 03:25 PM   #1
garageGT
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Default I think this is the ultimate powerband setup for track..580BHP/600ftlb

We just got the dyno testing done on our 2002 WRX.

old setup:
Full-Race twin scroll GT3582R 1.06 A/R
garageGT spec EJ257 shortblock
DPR EJ257 heads w/Tomei custom cams
MPtuning AEM EMS
550BHP @ 22psi
GrupN 1-4 dogbox / Cusco tarmac gear / Cusco LSDs
Carbonetic twin plate carbon clutch

We only changed the exhaust manifold to a Tomei unEqual lenght single scroll manifold, we swapped the turbo hotside to the new Tial V-band 0.63 A/R housing. Nothing else was changed. We achieved an incredible bottom end with this new housing, dyno charts are below. The torque gain at the wheels was 126 ftlb @ 4300 RPMs. Also peak torque was pulled back to 4300RPMs from 5600RPMs peak for the old setup. Turbo spool is 1000RPMs sooner with better peak HP ! very unusual but impressive ! This is a torque monster, very promising for upcoming races..This kit will be in production soon, stay tuned..

Final output:
441WHP/456ftlb torque @ 22psi (MS109)
~ 580BHP/84kgm torque @ 1.5bar (MS109)

full write up, pictures, dyno graphs, dyno video:
http://garagegtlinks.blogspot.com/20...gt-single.html

track video for old setup, 1:57.188 @ buttonwillow CW13
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Old 05-02-2010, 09:27 AM   #2
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Wow oversteer much!!!

Is the car purposely setup to be that loose or is that just the street class tires? I do have to say that it does look like it would be a blast to drive.
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Old 05-03-2010, 11:44 AM   #3
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Wow oversteer much!!!

Is the car purposely setup to be that loose or is that just the street class tires? I do have to say that it does look like it would be a blast to drive.
We were beating the horse, but it died We used a %35-65 cusco center gear, Its coming off this season..Cusco is telling us to play with the rear diff 1st but I'm not sure that will solve the problem w/o center gear swap..we shall see
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Old 05-03-2010, 12:22 PM   #4
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I hope that it makes the car a little bit more stable. It was a big surprise to see the car so easily get sideways on all aspects of the cornering not just on power. I know that loose is usually fast but not that loose
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Old 05-03-2010, 02:03 PM   #5
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I hope that it makes the car a little bit more stable. It was a big surprise to see the car so easily get sideways on all aspects of the cornering not just on power. I know that loose is usually fast but not that loose
yep, definitely.. the front grip is awesome though.. we also have a grupN quick rack which also helps setting up the 5spd drivetrain is very tricky..we are still experimenting..

we are targeting a 1:55 at buttonwillow this year, we shall see....
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Old 05-03-2010, 02:45 PM   #6
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Ouch. That's hard to watch. The thing is skittish everywhere, and it's losing a bit of time fighting the car in transitions and corners instead of staying on the gas or getting on the gas earlier or stronger. It might be more so having the car tailored more to him. He's rather heavy on the steering on corner entry, and many times this has him coming into corners oversteering. If he was stable going in, he'd have a lot easier time exiting. The car seemed to oversteer a good bit off throttle but not really when on the gas. You've got a very nice engine setup in the thing. Now if only you could get the suspension sorted out. I don't suppose we get any hints on that aspect do we?

It's really cool to see you guys get that broad of a power band and that early of a spool up.
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Old 05-03-2010, 03:01 PM   #7
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Howling brake pads = telling you they are working

We also play around with the 5spd drivetrain + built motor on our car, however with the 2 liter makes much less HP.

What size tires in that video?

-G
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Old 05-03-2010, 03:24 PM   #8
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Ouch. That's hard to watch. The thing is skittish everywhere, and it's losing a bit of time fighting the car in transitions and corners instead of staying on the gas or getting on the gas earlier or stronger. It might be more so having the car tailored more to him. He's rather heavy on the steering on corner entry, and many times this has him coming into corners oversteering. If he was stable going in, he'd have a lot easier time exiting. The car seemed to oversteer a good bit off throttle but not really when on the gas. You've got a very nice engine setup in the thing. Now if only you could get the suspension sorted out. I don't suppose we get any hints on that aspect do we?

It's really cool to see you guys get that broad of a power band and that early of a spool up.
Yes we are losing quite a bit of time..he requested more front torque split, more low end power and better brakes we just got done with the new turbo setup, we achieved our better spool/better low end power goal. Now are in touch with cusco about setting up car.. They are helping a lot

this is what they said:
I got respond back from Tech from Japan.
The guy built our time attack car and GT racing car.
He checked your you tube video and he said you look like loosing 2-3 sec.
with your over steer.

He is saying that;

Button willow is not high grip course and our tarmac gear is not suitable for this circuit.
Back to DCCD unit is recommended which is much effective and faster way than setting up with LSD using tarmac gear.
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Old 05-03-2010, 03:27 PM   #9
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Howling brake pads = telling you they are working

We also play around with the 5spd drivetrain + built motor on our car, however with the 2 liter makes much less HP.

What size tires in that video?

-G
yes the 2L is a nightmare, we had run a EJ207 block w/205 heads before.. the heads are very restrictive..Ej207 heads is a different story though..

we run 255s for street class.

the brakes however, they only had 5% material left we made a big mistake by not having spares.. and tarzan went through a set of %70 pad in a day so for this session, we were almost on the backplates, not kidding
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Old 05-03-2010, 09:19 PM   #10
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I'm curious how you're going to get more low end torque. It seems like you're already pushing the setup for the most part unless you run something exotic. You might be better off with a gearing change maybe to put the power where it needs to be.

2-3 seconds might be a bit conservative. I'm just a casual driver and not even a track person, but I can readily tell how much time Tarzan is off the throttle when I expect him to be on it and how much he's fighting the car. There is a big lack of confidence that shows through with how little of the course space he's using and how cautiously he's driving the car. He might be better with the current hardware if he could adjust his style some and spend extra time working around the quirks, but that's a matter of adapting to and hiding the the car's faults. I can only assume the setup is relatively new to him. Even with a bad setup a person can learn to drive it very fast given enough time and a little muscle memory.

I'm curious why he wanted more front end torque. For the infrequent times he's actually hard on the throttle in a corner, he isn't counter steering to correct the rear end. In some cases, he seems to even add a little more turn in(but in some cases, the rear does kick out). I'm curious if that desire would go away once the oversteer of the handling is reduced some. I think it would more so correct itself out. I kind of see on throttle (torque split) and off throttle(brake bias) handling balance as secondary steps after the suspension handling is sorted out. Then again, Tarzan has specific goals with the car and may want certain functional goals when on throttle, off throttle, and braking, and that's what's needed to achieve that goal. That's sort of the problem with drivers. Everyone drives different. You adapt the car to the driver or the driver adapts to the car.
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Old 05-04-2010, 12:52 PM   #11
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I'm curious how you're going to get more low end torque. It seems like you're already pushing the setup for the most part unless you run something exotic. You might be better off with a gearing change maybe to put the power where it needs to be.

2-3 seconds might be a bit conservative. I'm just a casual driver and not even a track person, but I can readily tell how much time Tarzan is off the throttle when I expect him to be on it and how much he's fighting the car. There is a big lack of confidence that shows through with how little of the course space he's using and how cautiously he's driving the car. He might be better with the current hardware if he could adjust his style some and spend extra time working around the quirks, but that's a matter of adapting to and hiding the the car's faults. I can only assume the setup is relatively new to him. Even with a bad setup a person can learn to drive it very fast given enough time and a little muscle memory.

I'm curious why he wanted more front end torque. For the infrequent times he's actually hard on the throttle in a corner, he isn't counter steering to correct the rear end. In some cases, he seems to even add a little more turn in(but in some cases, the rear does kick out). I'm curious if that desire would go away once the oversteer of the handling is reduced some. I think it would more so correct itself out. I kind of see on throttle (torque split) and off throttle(brake bias) handling balance as secondary steps after the suspension handling is sorted out. Then again, Tarzan has specific goals with the car and may want certain functional goals when on throttle, off throttle, and braking, and that's what's needed to achieve that goal. That's sort of the problem with drivers. Everyone drives different. You adapt the car to the driver or the driver adapts to the car.
We just swapped the turbo hotside housing from a T4 1.06 A/R to a Tial Vband 0.63 A/R. The gains are significant. The old setup might have had boost problems (as some tuners on this board are pointing out at proven power bragging section), but the A/R was our biggest concern more than anything and now we have pretty fat power band with 15psi @ 3500RPMs. So it is very promising. One our main issues was low RPM 3rd gear corners, and I had thought about a gearing change...But the 500PRM sooner spool should cover that..Now the challenge is to setting up the drivetrain better. I'm moving step by step, next will be center diff. Then the rear diff..

Tarzan drove the car for the 1st time, he had a day to practice, we did 3.5 sessions before the rear left axle broke. His strong point is getting used to a car fast, he increased his pace on the time attack day and did his best with the setup we had..After the race he told me about his preference of more front split, and it didnt make too much sense to me neither. Then he explained me the trick....So i will do a new setup per his request. This will also help with overheating issues we are having on the rear diff. On this case, we will adapt the car to his style
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Old 05-04-2010, 01:09 PM   #12
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Howling brake pads = telling you they are working



-G
Those howling noises aren't the 'working' noise so much as the vibration from being light on the brake pedal. It's easy to tell when he's in the one or two solid brake zones as he is getting on and coming off the brakes the howl occurs but in the heavy braking portion it's quiet. Lots of light brake pressure spots in that course for the way he was driving that car.
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Old 05-04-2010, 01:28 PM   #13
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Those howling noises aren't the 'working' noise so much as the vibration from being light on the brake pedal. It's easy to tell when he's in the one or two solid brake zones as he is getting on and coming off the brakes the howl occurs but in the heavy braking portion it's quiet. Lots of light brake pressure spots in that course for the way he was driving that car.
I have to give props to tarzan getting out there with no pads, i told him to do the best he could without risking it.. and he made it happen for us.. I wanted to turn up the boost about 2psi to give him some more speed, my tuner objected saying he would have to even brake earlier..Then he changed his mind and turned it up right before the grid
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Old 05-04-2010, 03:51 PM   #14
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I have to give props to tarzan getting out there with no pads, i told him to do the best he could without risking it.. and he made it happen for us.. I wanted to turn up the boost about 2psi to give him some more speed, my tuner objected saying he would have to even brake earlier..Then he changed his mind and turned it up right before the grid
He definitely looks tentative when the car is under braking through the mid-corner. Once that get's sorted out there should be some serious quick laptimes. And I was suspect of the 'ultimate powerband' but for a high power turbo it sure does look good.
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Old 05-04-2010, 04:54 PM   #15
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I can see a reason for the increased front torque as it does let you control understeer/oversteer with steering a little more (taking in some fwd corner pull-in behavior).

Well you guys have fun with that car. It's a little rough, but it'll only keep getting better. It should be fun to see in the future.
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Old 05-05-2010, 02:27 PM   #16
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He definitely looks tentative when the car is under braking through the mid-corner. Once that get's sorted out there should be some serious quick laptimes. And I was suspect of the 'ultimate powerband' but for a high power turbo it sure does look good.
its funny, the 1st thing he asked when he visited us in february was; did you fix the brakes ?

Yes it looks very promising It will be better than out last setup for sure..The small exhaust housing helped with low end, thus it flows well for top end as well.
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Old 05-05-2010, 02:29 PM   #17
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I can see a reason for the increased front torque as it does let you control understeer/oversteer with steering a little more (taking in some fwd corner pull-in behavior).

Well you guys have fun with that car. It's a little rough, but it'll only keep getting better. It should be fun to see in the future.
I trust him on that decision.. and you exactly got it right, he wants to drive fwd style We had been working on this car since the end of 2007, and it got to a nice level, there is still potential for improvement. Hope we do a 1:55 at buttonwillow this year thanks for the kind words...
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Old 05-06-2010, 12:25 AM   #18
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Just watched the video.

IMO, the car could be much faster if you changed the driver's driving style. He saws the wheel like a blade at a lumber mill. Smooth is fast. Tell him to stop twitching and fiddling with the steering wheel. Smooth inputs to the wheel and steer with the throttle.

Smooth is fast.
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Old 05-06-2010, 01:33 AM   #19
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Just watched the video.

IMO, the car could be much faster if you changed the driver's driving style. He saws the wheel like a blade at a lumber mill. Smooth is fast. Tell him to stop twitching and fiddling with the steering wheel. Smooth inputs to the wheel and steer with the throttle.

Smooth is fast.
Just how much track experience do you have?

Feel like its mostly people that have never tracked that say smooth is fast. Smooth is relative to the setup of the car and what exactly you're trying to do. I've seen more then enough videos of pro's sawing the wheel and ending up with INSANEly fast times.
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Old 05-06-2010, 02:55 AM   #20
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Yeah, he's not bad. He sort of does this kind of stuff for a living. The only thing I really see him doing is the turn in given the oversteer happy car, but I assume he's rather used to rotating cars into corners and has a preference towards that given is drifting background. I'm sure he's pretty comfortable fiddling around the limit like that, although he might like the car to function a little more predictably. Hopefully the drivetrain change will get things rocking. I really want to see some future videos of you guys decimating the competition.

It's an excellent driver choice on your part, even great PR too given is clout and character.

I find drifting techniques to be a very valuable tool set for a driver who desires to function competently on both sides of the grip limit. I came into drifting as a very casual hobby, but it has taught me so much. To not understand one side is potential for disaster or at the very least a limitation that makes you slow.

On Cadillac's comment, I'm all for smooth or maybe a better term precise or deliberate. I love the idea of minimalistic inputs to get the job done. It's something I strive for both in how I drive and how I set up my car for my own casual sport use, although this time attack stuff is well beyond my personal scope. To actually be smooth requires the road surface to be smooth and unchanging and for the car to be completely stable and linear in behavior. The precision needs to be there too. You wouldn't exactly take a showroom stock WRX and operate it with super smooth inputs. It simply won't react through a large portion of the motion range due to all the soft parts. In fact, you need to be pretty aggressive with the car to make it work quickly. Once the car is set up to be precise, inputs need to be precise. Once you toss any car on a varied surface, inputs become just as varied to keep that same car along a precise line. A blatant example would be comparing how one drives a F1 car vs. a WRC on their respective road surfaces. Schumacher was touted for being incredibly smooth with his inputs. You wouldn't see Loeb drive remotely close to the same way although he would be just as precise with his car. You do the inputs you need to do to put the car exactly where you want it. The speed and breadth of these inputs depends upon what's needed to get the job done. Deliberate is a better term than smooth, although smoothness in motion is important as you're still managing tire grip and chassis movements. Even if you're sawing at the wheel, the actions are done with specific precision and intent.
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Old 05-06-2010, 12:21 PM   #21
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Yeah, he's not bad. He sort of does this kind of stuff for a living. The only thing I really see him doing is the turn in given the oversteer happy car, but I assume he's rather used to rotating cars into corners and has a preference towards that given is drifting background. I'm sure he's pretty comfortable fiddling around the limit like that, although he might like the car to function a little more predictably. Hopefully the drivetrain change will get things rocking. I really want to see some future videos of you guys decimating the competition.

It's an excellent driver choice on your part, even great PR too given is clout and character.

I find drifting techniques to be a very valuable tool set for a driver who desires to function competently on both sides of the grip limit. I came into drifting as a very casual hobby, but it has taught me so much. To not understand one side is potential for disaster or at the very least a limitation that makes you slow.

On Cadillac's comment, I'm all for smooth or maybe a better term precise or deliberate. I love the idea of minimalistic inputs to get the job done. It's something I strive for both in how I drive and how I set up my car for my own casual sport use, although this time attack stuff is well beyond my personal scope. To actually be smooth requires the road surface to be smooth and unchanging and for the car to be completely stable and linear in behavior. The precision needs to be there too. You wouldn't exactly take a showroom stock WRX and operate it with super smooth inputs. It simply won't react through a large portion of the motion range due to all the soft parts. In fact, you need to be pretty aggressive with the car to make it work quickly. Once the car is set up to be precise, inputs need to be precise. Once you toss any car on a varied surface, inputs become just as varied to keep that same car along a precise line. A blatant example would be comparing how one drives a F1 car vs. a WRC on their respective road surfaces. Schumacher was touted for being incredibly smooth with his inputs. You wouldn't see Loeb drive remotely close to the same way although he would be just as precise with his car. You do the inputs you need to do to put the car exactly where you want it. The speed and breadth of these inputs depends upon what's needed to get the job done. Deliberate is a better term than smooth, although smoothness in motion is important as you're still managing tire grip and chassis movements. Even if you're sawing at the wheel, the actions are done with specific precision and intent.
Very well said..

I think you are just being modest, you actually sound like an instructor

We will try our best, hope we can make it happen again this year..time is ticking its already may!!

this is one of my favorite videos, tarzan driving the 700HP+ R32 GTR at UK time attack..

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Old 05-06-2010, 03:38 PM   #22
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I'm just a guy who likes driving cars. The most I've done with cars on a sport level is auto-x and rally-x, but I also got into drifting a while ago as a hobby and method to expand my skills. I still think I know only a fraction of everything I should know and have limited experience, but I've learned enough to get to a competent point and have a lot of fun in automotive sports. I sort of approach these forums as a helper and a guide. I answer what I can based off the information I've learned through my own en devours. I'm only 30 years old, but I've spent 15 of those years making cars go fast on everything from asphalt to ice. I just have fun with it and keep trying to learn more. Motorsports is a fun hobby, albeit spendy once you step into certain formats (why my poor self likes auto-x/rally-x). My comments/views come from this background, so take them as you like. I'm just a fellow enthusiast who has a passion for the sport and who's gained a bit along the way.

I haven't seen that Time Attack video yet. I watched the Roger Clarks one. Most of the videos I've seen of Tarzan are with him being sideways.
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Old 05-06-2010, 04:02 PM   #23
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Have you guys looked into the difference between a 'Cusco Tarmac Gear 35/65 center diff' and an '04/05 STI DCCD set to 0% duty cycle'?...
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Old 05-06-2010, 04:08 PM   #24
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I'm just a guy who likes driving cars. The most I've done with cars on a sport level is auto-x and rally-x, but I also got into drifting a while ago as a hobby and method to expand my skills. I still think I know only a fraction of everything I should know and have limited experience, but I've learned enough to get to a competent point and have a lot of fun in automotive sports. I sort of approach these forums as a helper and a guide. I answer what I can based off the information I've learned through my own en devours. I'm only 30 years old, but I've spent 15 of those years making cars go fast on everything from asphalt to ice. I just have fun with it and keep trying to learn more. Motorsports is a fun hobby, albeit spendy once you step into certain formats (why my poor self likes auto-x/rally-x). My comments/views come from this background, so take them as you like. I'm just a fellow enthusiast who has a passion for the sport and who's gained a bit along the way.

I haven't seen that Time Attack video yet. I watched the Roger Clarks one. Most of the videos I've seen of Tarzan are with him being sideways.
we got the same mindset, i like that.

The gtr video is pretty crazy, he is passing by the EVOs as if they are standing still

I'm jealous of roger clarks setup car is on top of its form & balance..
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Old 05-06-2010, 04:11 PM   #25
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Have you guys looked into the difference between a 'Cusco Tarmac Gear 35/65 center diff' and an '04/05 STI DCCD set to 0% duty cycle'?...
I wish we could run the DCCD

We are actually thinking of using a EMCD (older version of DCCD) from a 5spd GC8 v6 sti..trying to figure out if it would work with our usdm case...

plan B is 50-50 center diff, I heard there is also a fixed 60-40..still doing research for the best setup..
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